Page 11 of 17 FirstFirst 1234567891011121314151617 LastLast
Results 151 to 165 of 245

Thread: Location: Garden of Eden

  1. #151
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Coastal Mountains
    Posts
    8,236

    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post



    Watch, "Is Genesis History" and there is massive evidence found even in the Grand Canyon. Which is suppressed. I pray that when you watch it, you do not suppress the evidence but instead, reevaluate your position
    I appreciate your creationist and global flood stance, which I agree with. However placing the flood at the end-Permian has more solid geological evidence. Geology confirms a) most mountain building occurred after this
    B) the fountains of the great deep did actually burst forth then, the greatest volcanic event occurred then (Siberian traps)
    C) the ice caps melted then, causing flooding into ALL continental interiors
    D) there were massive movements of sedimentation then at the end-Permian

    These are all undeniable geological facts that occurred at the end-Permian, why then base a flood theory on secondary interpretations of the layers, when the primary interpretation fits so very well?

    Why were co2 levels dropping, oxygen levels higher, and air pressure higher during those Carboniferous "flood sediments", please explain. How did these levels drop and rise during the flood? Please explain

  2. #152
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    In a place of praying hard and trusting God while battling on my knees!
    Posts
    31,691
    Blog Entries
    95

    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I appreciate your creationist and global flood stance, which I agree with. However placing the flood at the end-Permian has more solid geological evidence. Geology confirms a) most mountain building occurred after this
    B) the fountains of the great deep did actually burst forth then, the greatest volcanic event occurred then (Siberian traps)
    C) the ice caps melted then, causing flooding into ALL continental interiors
    D) there were massive movements of sedimentation then at the end-Permian

    These are all undeniable geological facts that occurred at the end-Permian, why then base a flood theory on secondary interpretations of the layers, when the primary interpretation fits so very well?

    Why were co2 levels dropping, oxygen levels higher, and air pressure higher during those Carboniferous "flood sediments", please explain. How did these levels drop and rise during the flood? Please explain
    Because "the flood" was not an event that occurred due to natural conditions. The flood was a miraculous (supernatural) event that affected the natural.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  3. #153
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Coastal Mountains
    Posts
    8,236

    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Because "the flood" was not an event that occurred due to natural conditions. The flood was a miraculous (supernatural) event that affected the natural.
    Why did God supernaturally change co2, oxygen and air pressure levels during the flood?

    Anything is possible supernaturally but generally when we find an old ruin, it was actually a human building before, God didn't make it supernaturally look like that. God is not in the habit of just making things supernaturally appear in historical layers of soil.

    In the same way, I honestly with all my heart can guarantee you that God won't just make it appear supernaturally as if there were multiple different ecosystems in flood layers. There were actually multiple different ecosystems, proven by the fossils found within them.

  4. #154
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    11,229

    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    Same question as above.

    Does this present heavens and earth follow beginning day three? Does 2 Peter 3:5,6 refer to the condition of the heavens and earth from Gen 1:2-5 with what takes place after that being this present heavens and earth that last until the new heavens and earth, V13 of 2 Peter 3?
    It's a good question. The earth is formed "out of water and by water." This may reference the fact that in the beginning, in the process of creating the heavens and the earth, God began with a state of dark waters--the "deep."

    Gen 1.1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

    I suspect, though am not sure, that this state of being reflects conditions that actually become apparent on the 3rd day, which, of course, is part of "the beginning." So, Gen 1.1 may actually be looking past days 1 and 2 to day 3, when the heavens and the earth finally took form.

    The idea is, I think, that all of the creation of heavens and earth were preparatory for the formation of the earth for man, a process that took shape by the 3rd day. It was in the 2nd day that "heaven," or the sky, was created. And it was only on the 3rd day that the "earth" was actually formed. Light preexisted both heaven and earth, it seems.

    So waters existed in the beginning, and creation took place in the beginning. But the process of creation is explained in the 6 days of creation. The waters were actually "gathered together into seas," ie as bodies of water on this planet, on the 3rd day, at the same time plant life began to spring up on the earth. The creation of light on the 1st day, and the creation of the sky on the 2nd day, seems to have preceded the production of a "living planet" on the 3rd day.

    Peter seems to note that God uses water to engulf the earth in judgment, so as to "purify" the earth of sin, in order to in a sense return the earth to its pristine state of innocence at the beginning of creation.

    I therefore *do not* believe that Gen 1.6,7 indicates a "flood state" as we might think of it, as a world engulfed in waters. It was, rather, the creation of space, being on the 2nd day, which on the 3rd day would amount to a "flooded" condition on the earth, before the dry land appeared.

  5. #155
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    In a place of praying hard and trusting God while battling on my knees!
    Posts
    31,691
    Blog Entries
    95

    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Why did God supernaturally change co2, oxygen and air pressure levels during the flood?

    Anything is possible supernaturally but generally when we find an old ruin, it was actually a human building before, God didn't make it supernaturally look like that. God is not in the habit of just making things supernaturally appear in historical layers of soil.

    In the same way, I honestly with all my heart can guarantee you that God won't just make it appear supernaturally as if there were multiple different ecosystems in flood layers. There were actually multiple different ecosystems, proven by the fossils found within them.
    Here is a vid... thoughts?

    https://isgenesishistory.com/what-do...history-earth/ : What Does the Fossil Record Show Us? When we interviewed Dr. Marcus Ross, a paleontologist who now teaches at Liberty University, he provided a general overview of the creationist view of the fossil record. One of the things I appreciate about Dr. Ross is that he speaks honestly about what seems to make sense and what doesn’t make sense.

    That’s the thing about the fossil record: it seems to offer equal opportunity problems to everyone’s views. The sudden appearance of complex life at the Cambrian explosion;... >snip<
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  6. #156
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    14,290
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Ewq, all men, every man alive today, come from one man, no exceptions:
    That isn't true:

    https://www.newscientist.com/article...000-years-old/

    "Perry, recently deceased, was an African-American who lived in South Carolina. A few years ago, one of his female relatives submitted a sample of his DNA to a company called Family Tree DNA for genealogical analysis.

    Geneticists can use such samples to work out how we are related to one another. Hundreds of thousands of people have now had their DNA tested. The data from these tests had shown that all men gained their Y chromosome from a common male ancestor. This genetic “Adam” lived between 60,000 and 140,000 years ago.
    All men except Perry, that is. When Family Tree DNA’s technicians tried to place Perry on the Y-chromosome family tree, they just couldn’t. His Y chromosome was like no other so far analysed."

    This is just one example that shows not all come from one man so toss out the whole "every man descended from Noah" idea.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  7. #157
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Coastal Mountains
    Posts
    8,236

    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    That isn't true:

    https://www.newscientist.com/article...000-years-old/

    "Perry, recently deceased, was an African-American who lived in South Carolina. A few years ago, one of his female relatives submitted a sample of his DNA to a company called Family Tree DNA for genealogical analysis.

    Geneticists can use such samples to work out how we are related to one another. Hundreds of thousands of people have now had their DNA tested. The data from these tests had shown that all men gained their Y chromosome from a common male ancestor. This genetic “Adam” lived between 60,000 and 140,000 years ago.
    All men except Perry, that is. When Family Tree DNA’s technicians tried to place Perry on the Y-chromosome family tree, they just couldn’t. His Y chromosome was like no other so far analysed."

    This is just one example that shows not all come from one man so toss out the whole "every man descended from Noah" idea.
    HI Ewq. I'm enjoying our discussion, nice to exchange ideas and viewpoints.

    I enjoyed your research, but have since found further research that contradicts the earlier view:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2013303
    "" We demonstrate that the TMRCA estimate was reached through inadequate statistical and analytical methods, each of which contributed to its inflation. We show that the authors ignored previously inferred Y-specific rates of substitution, incorrectly derived the Y-specific substitution rate from autosomal mutation rates, and compared unequal lengths of the novel Y chromosome with the previously recognized basal lineage. ""

  8. #158
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    14,290
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    HI Ewq. I'm enjoying our discussion, nice to exchange ideas and viewpoints.

    I enjoyed your research, but have since found further research that contradicts the earlier view:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2013303
    "" We demonstrate that the TMRCA estimate was reached through inadequate statistical and analytical methods, each of which contributed to its inflation. We show that the authors ignored previously inferred Y-specific rates of substitution, incorrectly derived the Y-specific substitution rate from autosomal mutation rates, and compared unequal lengths of the novel Y chromosome with the previously recognized basal lineage. ""
    Yeah, well it looks like all the scientists can't agree on all of this stuff. Are you Premil or Amil as far as when Christ returns VS. the thousand years mentioned in Rev 20?
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  9. #159
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Coastal Mountains
    Posts
    8,236

    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Here is a vid... thoughts?

    https://isgenesishistory.com/what-do...history-earth/ : What Does the Fossil Record Show Us? When we interviewed Dr. Marcus Ross, a paleontologist who now teaches at Liberty University, he provided a general overview of the creationist view of the fossil record. One of the things I appreciate about Dr. Ross is that he speaks honestly about what seems to make sense and what doesn’t make sense.

    That’s the thing about the fossil record: it seems to offer equal opportunity problems to everyone’s views. The sudden appearance of complex life at the Cambrian explosion;... >snip<
    That video is interesting, likeable intelligent guy. But it's the typical "flood did it all" viewpoint of the fossil record which I dont find realistic. Entire environments get buried where they are, they don't drift evenly in a flood. And how did the marine world shift UNDER the other environments, surely the terrestrial environments would have zero marine environments underneath them. Where are these terrestrial only flood sediments?

    A more logical interpretation of the fossil record is the slow rising of sea beds due to something like a vast ice cap/glaciation forming causing sea levels to drop over hundreds of years. As the sea levels drop, new mud dwelling, then swamp dwelling, then land dwelling creatures move into the area and increase in numbers. This explains most of the land-based fossil record, including the Grand Canyon.

    Then in the late Permian, not even found at the Grand Canyon, we have a Great Death Event, vast numbers of broken fossils and many extinctions, and an end to the vast wet cool swampy world.

    This is replaced by a dry hot sandy world in which reptiles flourish. I honestly believe the changing environments reflect this transition from seabeds to land, then a flood. I just believe it explains the layers better.

  10. #160
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Coastal Mountains
    Posts
    8,236

    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Yeah, well it looks like all the scientists can't agree on all of this stuff. Are you Premil or Amil as far as when Christ returns VS. the thousand years mentioned in Rev 20?
    I'm premill...............

  11. #161
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    14,290
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I'm premill...............
    I think there is a bit of a contradiction between a Premil belief and a global flood belief:

    Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
    Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    Amil believes the example of Noah being used proves that no mortals survive the second coming yet Premil's believe some mortals do survive. If one believes the flood was global, then no one outside the ark survived yet a Premil would normally believe the example of Noah being related to the second coming does not mean all outside the ark died.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  12. #162
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Coastal Mountains
    Posts
    8,236

    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I think there is a bit of a contradiction between a Premil belief and a global flood belief:

    Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
    Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    Amil believes the example of Noah being used proves that no mortals survive the second coming yet Premil's believe some mortals do survive. If one believes the flood was global, then no one outside the ark survived yet a Premil would normally believe the example of Noah being related to the second coming does not mean all outside the ark died.
    I believe we must take the comparison of Matt 24. We want to compare apples with apples, but if the Bible is comparing apples with oranges, then we must do so.

    Amills want to read into the wording of Matt 24 a comparison of universal death of the flood, with universal death of the second coming. Ie a natural tendency to compare apples with apples. But Matt 24 does not make this comparison, instead it compares a lesser judgement (universal death at the flood) with a greater judgement (being left behind at the rapture). I do not believe this comparison of apples with oranges points to the amill view. Neither do I believe we should somehow dilute the universality of the flood, by seeing the greater numbers left behind.

    I dont believe Matt 24 points to a local flood.

    As usual there are multiple possible interpretations of Bible wording, but I believe the phrase the "whole world" can sometimes be an exaggeration of a certain region, but generally it does mean the whole world Gen 11, Job 34:13, Psalm 90:2, Prov 8:31, Isaiah 14:26, Zeph 3:8 etc etc

    So if the phrase the whole world, more commonly means the whole world, why insist it has to be a local flood, when the wording can easily be a universal flood? Same with the phrase "under the heavens" or the phrase "every living creature". There are often many ways to interpret the Bible, but when one is using multiple phrases in the normal way they are used, rather than the exceptions, you are on safer ground.

  13. #163
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    14,290
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I believe we must take the comparison of Matt 24. We want to compare apples with apples, but if the Bible is comparing apples with oranges, then we must do so.

    Amills want to read into the wording of Matt 24 a comparison of universal death of the flood, with universal death of the second coming. Ie a natural tendency to compare apples with apples. But Matt 24 does not make this comparison, instead it compares a lesser judgement (universal death at the flood) with a greater judgement (being left behind at the rapture). I do not believe this comparison of apples with oranges points to the amill view. Neither do I believe we should somehow dilute the universality of the flood, by seeing the greater numbers left behind.

    I dont believe Matt 24 points to a local flood.

    As usual there are multiple possible interpretations of Bible wording, but I believe the phrase the "whole world" can sometimes be an exaggeration of a certain region, but generally it does mean the whole world Gen 11, Job 34:13, Psalm 90:2, Prov 8:31, Isaiah 14:26, Zeph 3:8 etc etc

    So if the phrase the whole world, more commonly means the whole world, why insist it has to be a local flood, when the wording can easily be a universal flood? Same with the phrase "under the heavens" or the phrase "every living creature". There are often many ways to interpret the Bible, but when one is using multiple phrases in the normal way they are used, rather than the exceptions, you are on safer ground.
    So while you believe the flood killed everyone not on the ark, the use of the flood in the NT regarding the second coming somehow does not equal all the unsaved being killed? Obviously I see a contradiction here not solved by your reply.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  14. #164
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Coastal Mountains
    Posts
    8,236

    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    So while you believe the flood killed everyone not on the ark, the use of the flood in the NT regarding the second coming somehow does not equal all the unsaved being killed? Obviously I see a contradiction here not solved by your reply.
    The comparison is contained in the text of Matt 24:

    in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.

    I do not see a local flood there, nor do I see amill type universal death at the second coming. Simply universal death at the flood is compared to universal damnation of being left behind. Both are universal/worldwide judgments, hence the comparison.
    Last edited by DurbanDude; Jul 18th 2019 at 01:45 PM.

  15. #165
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    In a place of praying hard and trusting God while battling on my knees!
    Posts
    31,691
    Blog Entries
    95

    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    That video is interesting, likeable intelligent guy. But it's the typical "flood did it all" viewpoint of the fossil record which I dont find realistic. Entire environments get buried where they are, they don't drift evenly in a flood. And how did the marine world shift UNDER the other environments, surely the terrestrial environments would have zero marine environments underneath them. Where are these terrestrial only flood sediments?

    A more logical interpretation of the fossil record is the slow rising of sea beds due to something like a vast ice cap/glaciation forming causing sea levels to drop over hundreds of years. As the sea levels drop, new mud dwelling, then swamp dwelling, then land dwelling creatures move into the area and increase in numbers. This explains most of the land-based fossil record, including the Grand Canyon.

    Then in the late Permian, not even found at the Grand Canyon, we have a Great Death Event, vast numbers of broken fossils and many extinctions, and an end to the vast wet cool swampy world.

    This is replaced by a dry hot sandy world in which reptiles flourish. I honestly believe the changing environments reflect this transition from seabeds to land, then a flood. I just believe it explains the layers better.
    Just so I understand you, and you understand me in my view of your posts.

    God had nothing to do with "miraculously" causing the earth to change and resulted in/caused, the flood. Your view seems to be saying that God KNEW the earth would suddenly change over a 40 day period, resulting in the flood.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Location of Eden?
    By trance750 in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: Jan 22nd 2016, 10:05 PM
  2. Garden of Eden found ?
    By Protective Angel in forum Breaking News
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: Aug 3rd 2013, 05:27 PM
  3. The Garden of Eden
    By buster in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: Apr 6th 2012, 05:55 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •