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Thread: Location: Garden of Eden

  1. #196
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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I know "the whole world" or "all the earth" can refer to the entire globe. It depends, as I said, on context. It really matters if "all the furniture was destroyed" refers to a house, a furniture store, or the entire universe. "All" does mean "all," but what it actually refers to is limited by the context.

    When Jesus died for the whole world, we know it is for "mankind," and not just as far as the eye can see. When a Flood covered the whole earth, it seems reasonable that the flood waters covered as far as the eye could see in all directions, much like a boat out in the middle of the Mediterranean. But it was not likely global.
    It's possible the phrase the "whole world" is used the way you prefer, but let's not forget how often the phrase the "whole world" clearly does actually mean the whole world. Here are some examples:

    Genesis 11:1 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech.

    Job34:14. Who appointed him over the earth? Who put him in charge of the whole world?

    Psalm 90:2 before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

    Isaiah 14:26 This is the plan determined for the whole world; this is the hand stretched out over all nations.


    If you also take into account the numerous other phrases in Genesis 6-9 describing a universal flood, I still fail to understand your preference for a local flood:



    I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it.

    The waters:" rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. "

    Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died

    And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

    Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood

    Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant



    Your view is possible, but the wording points more strongly to a global flood.

  2. #197
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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I know "the whole world" or "all the earth" can refer to the entire globe. It depends, as I said, on context. It really matters if "all the furniture was destroyed" refers to a house, a furniture store, or the entire universe. "All" does mean "all," but what it actually refers to is limited by the context.

    When Jesus died for the whole world, we know it is for "mankind," and not just as far as the eye can see. When a Flood covered the whole earth, it seems reasonable that the flood waters covered as far as the eye could see in all directions, much like a boat out in the middle of the Mediterranean. But it was not likely global.
    Since context matters to you, what scriptural context, in the story of the flood, suggest it is local?
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
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  3. #198
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    Question Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Slug, maybe you haven't heard the argument I've been making. The language does not convey either a universal Flood or a local Flood necessarily. I could stand in the middle of the country, and go through a major flood in my state, see the whole region around completely covered with water and make the statement, "the whole earth is covered with water under the whole heaven!" We would use a little different language today in our culture, since it wants to be more specific in light of modern scientific knowledge. But in a primitive culture, it would not be dishonest to say that the whole world was inundated when the entire culture and society I was a part of was completely submerged within my view.

    There are strong arguments that "all the earth" does not always mean "all the planet," but rather, all the earth within visual distance, or all the earth within the immediate civilization. And "under the whole heaven" refers to the sky in the local area, rather than the space all the way around the planet.

    Your claim that these terms *must mean* a global Flood is, I think, false. The language does not argue for a universal Flood. It only argues for something comprehensive within Noah's immediate context, within his own civilization--the entire world within his own region.

    He did not see the earth as a planet. But God saw what went on there as representative of His interests about the entire earth. It is insensible to think Noah saved every insect, fish, bird, and animal within the ark, let alone all the plants that apparently "survived" the Flood.

    And clearly, plants and insects play a role in the food chain, without which the animals would not survive. You need a food chain, and you need the balance of nature. A global Flood lasting for about a year would destroy all that.

    But it does make sense if God asked Noah to take a sampling from his own region, to save them as an example to the world that God wanted to preserve many species on the planet. Dismissing science based on faulty language interpretation will give us all a bad name, and lose potential converts, who being thinking people, will not accept Christians who base their faith on anti-intellectual supernaturalism. "Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord." And "have an answer for everyone that asks of you, a reason for the hope that lies within you."
    We do not deny the supernatural, nor that revelation springs out of something that is transcendent, beyond our own knowledge. But I would argue that God placed reason within our domain, so that what we believe actually makes sense to those willing to hear from a supernatural God.

    Noah had help from God with the animals .

    Gen 6:20
    Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.


    Noah did not have to get all the animals , some of them were directed by God to go to the ark .


    Insects . It would have took miracle to keep insects off the ark !


    One thing about the problem of food after the flood . Have you ever noticed how fast grass grows , mine needs mowing now . A lot of the animals on the ark ate grass and vegetation . Grass would have made a quick comeback after the flood .

    Question what is the difference between "anti-intellectual supernaturalism" and intellectual supernaturalism ?

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Since context matters to you, what scriptural context, in the story of the flood, suggest it is local?
    The Ark is too small to hold animals from all over the world. That means the flood was not global so many animals did not need to be put on the ark. The only animals that needed to be on the Ark were local animals.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The Ark is too small to hold animals from all over the world. That means the flood was not global so many animals did not need to be put on the ark. The only animals that needed to be on the Ark were local animals.
    There's been a lot of adaptation since the ark. Eg foxes, wolves, dogs were all originally the same breed. Same as tigers, lions etc. The numbers aren't as high as you may think. You need proper calculations before making a conclusion.

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    There's been a lot of adaptation since the ark. Eg foxes, wolves, dogs were all originally the same breed. Same as tigers, lions etc.
    Ok, please prove at the time of the flood that there weren't all these "adaptations" already. There was a lot of time between the day God created animals and the flood. Plenty of time for "adaptations".
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Ok, please prove at the time of the flood that there weren't all these "adaptations" already. There was a lot of time between the day God created animals and the flood. Plenty of time for "adaptations".
    I haven't got answers to these questions. You must have because you said the ark is too small. For how many species? Were they fully grown when entering the ark? Have they increased in size since, what was the exact size of each animal at the time? Eg humans have increased in size since medieval times, maybe elephants have increased in size since the ark.

    Do you know the precise answers to all these questions, if not I don't know how you can be so certain that the ark was too small.

  8. #203
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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by hawkman View Post
    Noah had help from God with the animals .

    Gen 6:20
    Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.


    Noah did not have to get all the animals , some of them were directed by God to go to the ark .


    Insects . It would have took miracle to keep insects off the ark !


    One thing about the problem of food after the flood . Have you ever noticed how fast grass grows , mine needs mowing now . A lot of the animals on the ark ate grass and vegetation . Grass would have made a quick comeback after the flood .

    Question what is the difference between "anti-intellectual supernaturalism" and intellectual supernaturalism ?
    Precisely, the "supernaturalism" is clearly explained in this case, there was Godly intervention in an otherwise impossible situation.

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Eg humans have increased in size since medieval times,
    And we know why.

    maybe elephants have increased in size since the ark.
    Elephant bones from far into the past are the same size for adults that we find today.


    Do you know the precise answers to all these questions, if not I don't know how you can be so certain that the ark was too small.
    It's been calculated. The Ark is far too small for hold 8 humans, all types of animals from the globe, and the food and water needed for all. The global flood is the oldest and most common misinterpretation of the bible.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    And we know why.



    Elephant bones from far into the past are the same size for adults that we find today.




    It's been calculated. The Ark is far too small for hold 8 humans, all types of animals from the globe, and the food and water needed for all. The global flood is the oldest and most common misinterpretation of the bible.
    I don't think they took into account all the factors. Did they assume adult sizes for the animals? Did they assume dogs, wolves and foxes were on the ark, or have they diversified since? I personally have never seen research that covered all these questions. Without that research it's just guess work based on skeptism.

    Look at how huge it is:
    https://www.today.com/news/life-size...nds-2D79452166

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Did they assume dogs, wolves and foxes were on the ark, or have they diversified since?
    I read that DNA tests showed dogs diverged from wolves 40,000 years ago so long before the flood.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    It's been calculated. The Ark is far too small for hold 8 humans, all types of animals from the globe, and the food and water needed for all. The global flood is the oldest and most common misinterpretation of the bible.

    What if the animals were in a state of hibernation for a great percentage of the trip ? This would have cut down on their food and water requirements greatly . Since it was raining a lot I believe they could have used rainwater for their needs .


    As far as the animals all fitting on the ark , here is a calculation that said it would be possible to get them on the ark .


    https://creation.com/how-did-all-the...t-on-noahs-ark

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by hawkman View Post
    What if the animals were in a state of hibernation for a great percentage of the trip ? This would have cut down on their food and water requirements greatly .
    I heard someone say they believed God could have made all stomachs smaller while on the ark so they wouldn't have to eat very much. They also thought the animals could be made super tiny so all animals could fit inside of a small box so most of the Ark was empty.


    Since it was raining a lot I believe they could have used rainwater for their needs .
    Water still had to be stored. It also didn't rain everyday...it says 40 days and nights but the flood lasted 5 months. Maybe part of the Ark had an early water treatment center?
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I heard someone say they believed God could have made all stomachs smaller while on the ark so they wouldn't have to eat very much. They also thought the animals could be made super tiny so all animals could fit inside of a small box so most of the Ark was empty.




    Water still had to be stored. It also didn't rain everyday...it says 40 days and nights but the flood lasted 5 months. Maybe part of the Ark had an early water treatment center?
    So you think God could have made the animals super tiny ? Nothing is impossible for my God .

    There is so many things we don't know about the ark , the nuts and bolts of how things worked . What day to day life would have been like . We don't know how many animals were on the ark . How much food and water would have been needed . Did they catch fish and eat those and feed to the animals .

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by hawkman View Post
    So you think God could have made the animals super tiny ? Nothing is impossible for my God .

    There is so many things we don't know about the ark , the nuts and bolts of how things worked . What day to day life would have been like . We don't know how many animals were on the ark . How much food and water would have been needed . Did they catch fish and eat those and feed to the animals .
    God designed the ark so his chosen creation could be saved. It worked. Perhaps a lot of the animals were baby / young animals , reducing food costs.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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