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Thread: Location: Garden of Eden

  1. #46
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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    As I said, "the whole earth" referred, in Noah's time, to an entire region. They did not think *globally.* They thought, perhaps, of a flat earth, with the "earth" below us as land, and with the sky above us, separating rain clouds from us, which would otherwise just be fog, or mist. Heaven extended farther above the clouds, which could be seen at night with the stars.
    Did God inspire Moses to write "the whole earth" or are those Moses's words alone? If it is inspired, how can mean anything other than the "whole earth"? If it is not inspired, then does the story even matter?

  2. #47
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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Well, either God allowed scientific principles to be discovered, and then betray us, or to enlighten us. The most certain things in life could, in theory, be wrong, or could be disproved by some quirky explanation. Ask any lawyer!

    Point taken, though. We should consider not just radiometric dating, but all of the evidence. For me, the evidence points to an old universe.

    If my only concern is to "prove the Bible," I wouldn't lose any sleep. The Genesis account does not really determine the age of the earth, nor the age of the universe, in my opinion. It was done in the "beginning." How long that took we don't know.

    The "days" of creation are literary tools, since the 1st "day" could only exist as a mechanism for man's understanding of a "work week" for God. What is a "days' work" for God?

    There was no sun on the 1st day, and yet "an evening and a morning" took place! This just appears to be a literary device, used to explain things that transcend our own understanding. It involves "creation," which has no time.
    Radiometric decay was thought to be a constant, until recently at Purdue University they discovered even a solar flare has a slight effect on the decay. I'm not questioning the science, I'm encouraging the science, they need to study that effect further.

    Regarding the sun, I believe Genesis 1 explains the context/setting of creation week as a set of occurrences on the surface of a dark watery planet earth. It is in this setting that we have light filtering through the darkness, and sky becoming visible, then the sun and moon becoming visible on day 4.

    The Hebrew means produced, God produced the sun in the sky, it wasn't visible there before. It existed beyond the dark earth, but then the thick mists thinned somewhat. And God produced the sun, now visible on the surface.


    We have two different ways of viewing the text, my methodology is to avoid reading too much symbolism, literary devices or abstracts if possible.

  3. #48
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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Radiometric decay was thought to be a constant, until recently at Purdue University they discovered even a solar flare has a slight effect on the decay. I'm not questioning the science, I'm encouraging the science, they need to study that effect further.

    Regarding the sun, I believe Genesis 1 explains the context/setting of creation week as a set of occurrences on the surface of a dark watery planet earth. It is in this setting that we have light filtering through the darkness, and sky becoming visible, then the sun and moon becoming visible on day 4.

    The Hebrew means produced, God produced the sun in the sky, it wasn't visible there before. It existed beyond the dark earth, but then the thick mists thinned somewhat. And God produced the sun, now visible on the surface.


    We have two different ways of viewing the text, my methodology is to avoid reading too much symbolism, literary devices or abstracts if possible.
    Which Hebrew word are you referring to that means "produce"? As for symbolism, it is often there, but that doesn't take away from the literal view. If you mean literary devices, or poetic, they are there too but we should be able to tell from other passages if they are a literary device or to be taken literal. At least that is the way I see it.

    For instance, it seems to me that the "evening and a day" are always used to refer to one 24 hour period. But that doesn't mean that creation is ONLY about creation. IMO, it is also fortells about Jesus birth, death, and resurrection and also the sanctification of man.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  4. #49
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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Here, for Aviyah and for others, are contained some quotes from Bernard Ramm, whose arguments won me over to the Local Flood position.
    From the thread, "The Prophetic Word," beginning with post #63 and ending with post #67... Click

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Which Hebrew word are you referring to that means "produce"? As for symbolism, it is often there, but that doesn't take away from the literal view. If you mean literary devices, or poetic, they are there too but we should be able to tell from other passages if they are a literary device or to be taken literal. At least that is the way I see it.

    For instance, it seems to me that the "evening and a day" are always used to refer to one 24 hour period. But that doesn't mean that creation is ONLY about creation. IMO, it is also fortells about Jesus birth, death, and resurrection and also the sanctification of man.
    I see the events of Genesis 1 occurring on the surface of this dark watery planet. This is the clear location of the events, the appearance of light and then later the sun being from this perspective.

    Others may see the events as the creation of the universe and then later the sun, that is just not how I read Genesis 1.

    On the 4th day God produced the sun (perspective still being the surface of earth)

    The Hebrew word is Asah, which mainly means to do/make. But it also means many other verbs/actions like to keep (48x), shew (43x), prepare (37x), work (29x), do so (21x), perform (18x)
    to be done
    to be made
    to be produced
    to be offered
    to be observed
    to be used

    I would rather interpret Asah as God showed the sun on day 4, than the strange interpretations that YECs have on water canopies, 24 hour days before the sun existed, a planet warm enough for plants without a sun and whatever other strange beliefs people insert to try and make sense of chapter 1.

    A dark misty watery earth, with sunlight increasingly breaking through to the surface is the simplest and most literal view.

  6. #51
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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I see the events of Genesis 1 occurring on the surface of this dark watery planet. This is the clear location of the events, the appearance of light and then later the sun being from this perspective.

    Others may see the events as the creation of the universe and then later the sun, that is just not how I read Genesis 1.

    On the 4th day God produced the sun (perspective still being the surface of earth)

    The Hebrew word is Asah, which mainly means to do/make. But it also means many other verbs/actions like to keep (48x), shew (43x), prepare (37x), work (29x), do so (21x), perform (18x)
    to be done
    to be made
    to be produced
    to be offered
    to be observed
    to be used

    I would rather interpret Asah as God showed the sun on day 4, than the strange interpretations that YECs have on water canopies, 24 hour days before the sun existed, a planet warm enough for plants without a sun and whatever other strange beliefs people insert to try and make sense of chapter 1.

    A dark misty watery earth, with sunlight increasingly breaking through to the surface is the simplest and most literal view.
    How do you handle verse 14 and 15 then? When He said "let there be lights" which is the same verbage He used for everything else He created?

    Also, strongs defines "asah" to do or make in the broadest application. Even the word "produce" has as its meaning "to bring forth, to create, to make". Though in English, we sometimes use it to say bring out into sight i.e. "he grabbed the key and produced it to his friend". However, it rarely means that.

    Gen 1:14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so.

    With these two verses, we have God bringout about lights, to separate the days and the nights. Vs 16 simply tells us about the sun and moon but the scriptures imply they were created in 14-15 along with all the other starts. If that is the case, then they were created the same exact way the trees, the grass, the herbs, the animals, etc. were created.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Did God inspire Moses to write "the whole earth" or are those Moses's words alone? If it is inspired, how can mean anything other than the "whole earth"? If it is not inspired, then does the story even matter?
    Habbakuk 1:6 (NIV)
    I am raising up the Babylonians, that ruthless and impetuous people, who sweep across the whole earth to seize dwellings not their own.
    The Babylonians did not sweep across the whole earth. (Of course, this is hyperbole, but what's the difference really in the use here?).

    Other related examples...

    Daniel 4:1
    Nebuchadnezzar, To the nations and peoples of every language, who live in all the earth: May you prosper greatly!
    I don't think Nebuchadnezzer's reign encompassed all the earth.

    Daniel 6:25
    Then King Darius wrote to all the nations and peoples of every language in all the earth: May you prosper greatly!
    Neither did Darius'.
    Do not say, Why were the old days better than these? For it is not wise to ask such questions.
    Ecc 7:10

    John777 exists to me only in quoted form.



  8. #53
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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Radiometric decay was thought to be a constant, until recently at Purdue University they discovered even a solar flare has a slight effect on the decay. I'm not questioning the science, I'm encouraging the science, they need to study that effect further.

    Regarding the sun, I believe Genesis 1 explains the context/setting of creation week as a set of occurrences on the surface of a dark watery planet earth. It is in this setting that we have light filtering through the darkness, and sky becoming visible, then the sun and moon becoming visible on day 4.

    The Hebrew means produced, God produced the sun in the sky, it wasn't visible there before. It existed beyond the dark earth, but then the thick mists thinned somewhat. And God produced the sun, now visible on the surface.


    We have two different ways of viewing the text, my methodology is to avoid reading too much symbolism, literary devices or abstracts if possible.
    I respect your demeanor here. You really demonstrate an honest, reflective tone, which I translate into objectivity. I have no axe to grind on this subject so I am equally open. If anything, though, I've been tainted by spending a portion of a year debating with someone who is much more knowledgeable on the subject. He is an evolutionist and a Reform Jew. We Christians tend to look to Christian or Young Earth sites on the web. But talking with those outside of our bubble, we can find resources not necessarily friendly to Christianity, but nevertheless good scientific sources.

    We both know that nonChristians in general are biased against Christianity. But there are honest scientists out there who view the evidence objectively. Right now, all the evidence points to an old age for the universe and for the earth.

    If something tainted the whole earth to the same degree of contamination, then we would have to assume that a cosmic event disturbed the radioactive data, altering the whole thing at the same time and in the same way. This scenario should be able to be proven one way or another.

    If all of the data is different, it would indicate different events affected the earth in each region of the earth. Otherwise, the earth rotated until it was equally "bathed" in cosmic rays on all sides. Either that, or there was little significant corruption of the data at all.

    Bringing back rocks from beyond the earth might tell scientists something about this also. If they bring back the same age as the earth, then either a cosmic event was so large as to affect *all of the solid planets,* or they simply have the same or similar ages.

    To say that *all celestial bodies* in the universe result in the same or similar ages and was uniformly contaminated by a single universe-wide event is not saying anything about the age of the universe at all, based on the evidence. It is the same as saying God covered up, on purpose, all of the evidence, and deliberately distorted it, knowing we would be fooled in our own time.

  9. #54
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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    How do you handle verse 14 and 15 then? When He said "let there be lights" which is the same verbage He used for everything else He created?

    Also, strongs defines "asah" to do or make in the broadest application. Even the word "produce" has as its meaning "to bring forth, to create, to make". Though in English, we sometimes use it to say bring out into sight i.e. "he grabbed the key and produced it to his friend". However, it rarely means that.

    Gen 1:14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so.

    With these two verses, we have God bringout about lights, to separate the days and the nights. Vs 16 simply tells us about the sun and moon but the scriptures imply they were created in 14-15 along with all the other starts. If that is the case, then they were created the same exact way the trees, the grass, the herbs, the animals, etc. were created.
    Let them be, produce, make, observe. God is creative and was making this world habitable and then populating it. I dont see any reason to favor one usage of those words over another.

    My view is not impossible, if it is you would have pointed it out. Those Hebrew words have a wide range of meaning.

  10. #55
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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I respect your demeanor here. You really demonstrate an honest, reflective tone, which I translate into objectivity. I have no axe to grind on this subject so I am equally open. If anything, though, I've been tainted by spending a portion of a year debating with someone who is much more knowledgeable on the subject. He is an evolutionist and a Reform Jew. We Christians tend to look to Christian or Young Earth sites on the web. But talking with those outside of our bubble, we can find resources not necessarily friendly to Christianity, but nevertheless good scientific sources.

    We both know that nonChristians in general are biased against Christianity. But there are honest scientists out there who view the evidence objectively. Right now, all the evidence points to an old age for the universe and for the earth.

    If something tainted the whole earth to the same degree of contamination, then we would have to assume that a cosmic event disturbed the radioactive data, altering the whole thing at the same time and in the same way. This scenario should be able to be proven one way or another.

    If all of the data is different, it would indicate different events affected the earth in each region of the earth. Otherwise, the earth rotated until it was equally "bathed" in cosmic rays on all sides. Either that, or there was little significant corruption of the data at all.

    Bringing back rocks from beyond the earth might tell scientists something about this also. If they bring back the same age as the earth, then either a cosmic event was so large as to affect *all of the solid planets,* or they simply have the same or similar ages.

    To say that *all celestial bodies* in the universe result in the same or similar ages and was uniformly contaminated by a single universe-wide event is not saying anything about the age of the universe at all, based on the evidence. It is the same as saying God covered up, on purpose, all of the evidence, and deliberately distorted it, knowing we would be fooled in our own time.
    You say "equally open", but in many cases I conclude. I am sure. Even so I acknowledge that many views are possible, even though to me they lack common sense.

    The universe is old, and so is the granite bedrock.

    But it makes no sense to date bedrock completely protected from solar wind/cosmic rays using the same rates as surface rock exposed to some.

    Then again rocks in space have 100 percent exposure.

    If slight changes to surface radiation. Can change decay rates, both the completely protected bedrock, and the completely exposed space rocks would have different decay rates, and they have not yet established how different these rates are.

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by teddyv View Post
    Habbakuk 1:6 (NIV) Daniel 4:1 Daniel 6:25
    Thanks for posting these, that's exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for.
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Let them be, produce, make, observe. God is creative and was making this world habitable and then populating it. I dont see any reason to favor one usage of those words over another.

    My view is not impossible, if it is you would have pointed it out. Those Hebrew words have a wide range of meaning.
    Not "let there be"... that doesn't have the meaning of produce and is a different word than "made" that is used in verse 16.

    Let there be is hayah in the Hebrew. Here is strong's definitions:

    OT 1961 hayah (haw-yaw); a primitive root [compare OT:1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):

    The problem is, that is the same word used for when God created each thing. So if it means produce for the sun, then we have to use the same meaning for the trees, etc. Right? But this word doesn't mean "produce" and it was used for the trees, the lights, etc.

    So how do you around that?
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by teddyv View Post
    Habbakuk 1:6 (NIV)


    The Babylonians did not sweep across the whole earth. (Of course, this is hyperbole, but what's the difference really in the use here?).
    Bad translation and not the same words used in the genesis account. Here's the KJV translation of that passage and the NASB:

    KJV 6 For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwelling places that are not theirs.

    NASB 6 "For behold, I am raising up the Chaldeans,
    That fierce and impetuous people
    Who march throughout the earth
    To seize dwelling places which are not theirs.

    The word translated earth/land in Habakkuk is dealing exclusively in the context of Israel and their promised land given all the promises about the land and being scattered. Thus, context makes it more clear it is talking about the land/earth of Israel.

    Here's the hebrew word that the NIV translates "whole"

    OT:4800 merchab (mer-khawb'); from OT:7337; enlargement, either literally (an open space, usually in a good sense), or figuratively (liberty):

    It's not even used in the book of Genesis.

    Here's the word translated "earth" or "land".

    OT:776 'erets (eh'-rets); from an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land):

    It can mean both at large (i.e. the whole earth) or a piece of land. And it is used throughout genesis. How can we know which one it is? Context. The word is often used to speak of the promised land. It is used in Exodus, Genesis, the law and the prophets, etc.

    Habakkuk is speaking specifically of Israel being raided and scattered from their entire promised land just as God promised He would do in their law.


    Daniel 4:1
    I don't think Nebuchadnezzer's reign encompassed all the earth.
    This is a much, much better example than Habakkuk. But it seems to me the viewpoint is actually from Nebechadnezzer and not from the Lord God's viewpoint. He was giving his testimony of how God had humbled him.

    The context is the king describing his position first, in order to exalt God later.

    4:1 Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you.
    2 I thought it good to shew the signs and wonders that the high God hath wrought toward me.
    3 How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.

    Daniel 6:25
    Neither did Darius'.
    In my view, this is the absolute best example you gave. And I agree, it is hyperbole. I think context tells us that.

    How does the context in Gen 6 suggest it is hyperbole? Where can we see that?

    Part of the prolblem is that when something is written from man's viewpoint, we know that man's viewpoint is limited. But when scripture speaks for God from His viewpoint, don't you think we should take note of that as being intrinsically different from when scripture speaks from man's viewpoint?
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    You say "equally open", but in many cases I conclude. I am sure. Even so I acknowledge that many views are possible, even though to me they lack common sense.

    The universe is old, and so is the granite bedrock.

    But it makes no sense to date bedrock completely protected from solar wind/cosmic rays using the same rates as surface rock exposed to some.

    Then again rocks in space have 100 percent exposure.

    If slight changes to surface radiation. Can change decay rates, both the completely protected bedrock, and the completely exposed space rocks would have different decay rates, and they have not yet established how different these rates are.
    Thank you. That was exactly my point.

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Not "let there be"... that doesn't have the meaning of produce and is a different word than "made" that is used in verse 16.

    Let there be is hayah in the Hebrew. Here is strong's definitions:

    OT 1961 hayah (haw-yaw); a primitive root [compare OT:1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):

    The problem is, that is the same word used for when God created each thing. So if it means produce for the sun, then we have to use the same meaning for the trees, etc. Right? But this word doesn't mean "produce" and it was used for the trees, the lights, etc.

    So how do you around that?
    This point was already dealt with in the previous post.

    God is creative and so produces things in many creative ways, sometimes via natural processes and sometimes via supernatural intervention. The Bible does not restrict the use of the Hebrew word Asah or the word Hayah to supernatural creation and neither should we.

    Of course it's possible that I'm wrong, but I way prefer the thinning mists view, viewed from the location in context. There is no reason for God to make the earth and supernaturally sustain it and give it light in 24 hour cycles until making the sun in day 4.

    The earth and water are clearly in existence before day 1, and I like to stay literal, than start speculating that the earth means matter and the water canopy exists somewhere in the universe as some speculate. These ideas do not appeal to my common sense, neither do they fit the text, which refers to the earth pre-existing creation week.

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