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Thread: Location: Garden of Eden

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    Location: Garden of Eden

    There are few clues in the Bible concerning the location of the Garden of Eden. It's assumed to be the Middle East but the Bible doesn't actually say that.

    We know that it was possibly the highest point in the planet, because 4 rivers flowed out from there. We also know that the landscape must have been a lot lower then because the highest mountain ranges currently have sea fossils, indicating they were most likely sea beds at creation week , and only later became mountains.

    So from a geological perspective, where is a proven early raised landscape before the fountains of the great deep burst forth?

    That location is the Siberian Plateau, a vast early raised plateau which was covered over by the greatest volcanic event seen in geology known as the Siberian Traps. This was the highest landscape before those lava fountains burst forth, which raised earth's temperature causing the glaciation to melt and the ocean to flood into the interior continents.

    Mountain building tectonics only occurred after this event in geology.

    So I propose that the Garden of Eden did not occur in the middle east, but was in Siberia, probably the highest region before that volcanic event.

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    There are few clues in the Bible concerning the location of the Garden of Eden. It's assumed to be the Middle East but the Bible doesn't actually say that.
    It does here:

    The name of the first is the Pishon. It is the one that flowed around the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold. And the gold of that land is good; bdellium and onyx stone are there. The name of the second river is the Gihon. It is the one that flowed around the whole land of Cush. And the name of the third river is the Tigris, which flows east of Assyria. And the fourth river is the Euphrates. (Genesis 2:11-14)

    Remember that Genesis was written by Moses, who used contemporary locations to the Israelites of the time here in chapter 2. These are all in the middle-east, as the Bible uses the post-flood names of locations (Havilah, Cush, and Assyria did not exist until after Noah).

    We also know that the landscape must have been a lot lower then because the highest mountain ranges currently have sea fossils, indicating they were most likely sea beds at creation week , and only later became mountains.
    This has always been a weird theory for me. I think it's far more likely that sea fossils are found on mountain ranges because there was a great Flood as described, which deposited them up there before receding. Mountains growing out of the oceans (requires millions upon millions of years) yet somehow the fossils surviving the process sounds "fishy."

    The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than fifteen cubits. (Genesis 7)

    So despite there being tectonic activity, it's clear that the mountains were there already and the Flood overtook them temporarily.
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Originally Posted by DurbanDude

    There are few clues in the Bible concerning the location of the Garden of Eden. It's assumed to be the Middle East but the Bible doesn't actually say that.

    We know that it was possibly the highest point in the planet, because 4 rivers flowed out from there. We also know that the landscape must have been a lot lower then because the highest mountain ranges currently have sea fossils, indicating they were most likely sea beds at creation week , and only later became mountains.

    So from a geological perspective, where is a proven early raised landscape before the fountains of the great deep burst forth?

    That location is the Siberian Plateau, a vast early raised plateau which was covered over by the greatest volcanic event seen in geology known as the Siberian Traps. This was the highest landscape before those lava fountains burst forth, which raised earth's temperature causing the glaciation to melt and the ocean to flood into the interior continents.

    Mountain building tectonics only occurred after this event in geology.

    So I propose that the Garden of Eden did not occur in the middle east, but was in Siberia, probably the highest region before that volcanic event.


    Hey brother, research Salman Pak, Iraq.
    Slug1--out

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    It does here:

    The name of the first is the Pishon. It is the one that flowed around the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold. And the gold of that land is good; bdellium and onyx stone are there. The name of the second river is the Gihon. It is the one that flowed around the whole land of Cush. And the name of the third river is the Tigris, which flows east of Assyria. And the fourth river is the Euphrates. (Genesis 2:11-14)

    Remember that Genesis was written by Moses, who used contemporary locations to the Israelites of the time here in chapter 2. These are all in the middle-east, as the Bible uses the post-flood names of locations (Havilah, Cush, and Assyria did not exist until after Noah).



    This has always been a weird theory for me. I think it's far more likely that sea fossils are found on mountain ranges because there was a great Flood as described, which deposited them up there before receding. Mountains growing out of the oceans (requires millions upon millions of years) yet somehow the fossils surviving the process sounds "fishy."

    The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than fifteen cubits. (Genesis 7)

    So despite there being tectonic activity, it's clear that the mountains were there already and the Flood overtook them temporarily.
    Thanks, I thought that two post flood rivers shared names with pre-flood rivers, the flood making actual locations unrecognizable.

    I never realized the other locations and rivers were also recognizable post-flood, eg Havilah and Gihon. So I'm definitely open to changing my view on the location of Eden.

    Regarding geology, I don't trust the geologists on time frames but I believe them on nearly everything else. I place the pre flood world at the Carboniferous/Permian and earlier, flood is late Permian until early Triassic, and post flood since then.

    The mountain building occurred after the flood. There is currently enough water to cover a flat even world by 2.5 km of water, but certainly not enough to cover Everest etc I'm with the geologists on the fact that before the Great Death of the Permian-Triassic boundary the landscape was a lot flatter with fewer mountains and fewer deep ocean trenches.

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    It does here:

    The name of the first is the Pishon. It is the one that flowed around the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold. And the gold of that land is good; bdellium and onyx stone are there. The name of the second river is the Gihon. It is the one that flowed around the whole land of Cush. And the name of the third river is the Tigris, which flows east of Assyria. And the fourth river is the Euphrates. (Genesis 2:11-14)

    Remember that Genesis was written by Moses, who used contemporary locations to the Israelites of the time here in chapter 2. These are all in the middle-east, as the Bible uses the post-flood names of locations (Havilah, Cush, and Assyria did not exist until after Noah).



    This has always been a weird theory for me. I think it's far more likely that sea fossils are found on mountain ranges because there was a great Flood as described, which deposited them up there before receding. Mountains growing out of the oceans (requires millions upon millions of years) yet somehow the fossils surviving the process sounds "fishy."

    The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than fifteen cubits. (Genesis 7)

    So despite there being tectonic activity, it's clear that the mountains were there already and the Flood overtook them temporarily.
    If the mountains pre-existed the Flood, then God would've had to create 7 x the water that exists now on earth. And yet, the Scriptures say God was done with Creation by the 6th day. There was no great creation of new water in the time of the Flood. The Scriptures give a naturalistic account of the water, including rain and a break up of the earth, probably leading water from the ocean into a low-lying region in the area of Turkey. The ark came to rest on the lower mountains of Ararat. The Ark could not have rested on the top of Ararat, allowing for all the animals and Noah's family to climb down to a livable elevation.

    Since the earth is approx. 4.5 billion years old, we have plenty of time for the seas to plant forms of life on the seabed from which mountains later formed. The 6 days of creation are not, in my view, necessarily 6 days as we know them now. They are 6 days "of creation." How much time existed between these "days," or how long each "day" took place, we don't know. All we know is that God utilized a single "day" to do each thing. Maybe they were simultaneous, or overlapped--how can we know?

    There is a region in the area Noah lived in that is low-lying, and which could've been flooded greatly, covering all of the low-lying mountains *in that region.* It would've killed all of the animal species *in that region.* God had Noah preserve the animals *in that region* to show that He had no intention of obliterating Man's home and Man himself. In this area God presented His interest in the whole earth, and in fulfilling His command for Man to "fill the earth."

    I think we get too hyper-literal when speaking of the Flood, afraid that we will be agreeing with liberals, who don't believe the Bible. But we can also seem like unthinking fundamentalists, who place our hyper-literal presumptions about biblical stories over scientific evidence. In reality, science and Scriptures agree, if honest pursuit of the truth is made.

    We may fail to see that "the whole earth" refers to the immediate land around Noah, and not the *whole globe!* Noah did not have modern science courses, telescopes, and a knowledge of astronomy. He did not see the earth as a "globe," sitting on his desk. To him, waters covering the "whole earth" indicated a flood that covered the entire region around him.

    The age of Man on this earth is much less than the age of the earth itself. By the time of Adam and Noah, the mountains were indeed already formed. No flood could've covered the highest mountains of the whole globe without destroying Man and all life--not even the ark could've preserved them! 7 x the amount of water would've destroyed many, many creatures, if not all.

    The ark could not have contained all of the species of life, plant and animal, necessary to sustain life as we know it. The miracle would've been as great as creation itself, and that job was finished, as the Scriptures indicate.

    But on the location of the Garden of Eden, I agree with you. The Scriptures place it in the Middle East--an area stretching from modern Iraq to the mountain range of Turkey. Of course, it may have been a very limited area within this more vast region, since there were only two people living there. Travelling probably happened only after the Fall.

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Regarding geology, I don't trust the geologists on time frames but I believe them on nearly everything else ... There is currently enough water to cover a flat even world by 2.5 km of water, but certainly not enough to cover Everest etc I'm with the geologists on the fact that before the Great Death of the Permian-Triassic boundary the landscape was a lot flatter with fewer mountains and fewer deep ocean trenches.
    Well it does say in Genesis 7, "All the fountains of the great deep burst forth," so there must have been major geologic activities. My opinion is that most of the flood water was subterranean, and these ruptures and aftershocks throughout the earth caused a temporary flooding until much of the water receded into the mantle where it underwent thermolysis (splitting molecules by heat). Might be one explanation for why Earth's atmosphere is full of oxygen, whereas the hydrogen escaped into orbit or was absorbed into the crust to form other compounds.
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    There is a region in the area Noah lived in that is low-lying, and which could've been flooded greatly, covering all of the low-lying mountains *in that region.* It would've killed all of the animal species *in that region.* God had Noah preserve the animals *in that region* to show that He had no intention of obliterating Man's home and Man himself. In this area God presented His interest in the whole earth, and in fulfilling His command for Man to "fill the earth."
    The Flood was not regional only:

    I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth ... I have set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign ... I will remember my covenant that is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh. And the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh. (Genesis 9:11)

    There have still been regional floods throughout history.

    The age of Man on this earth is much less than the age of the earth itself.
    Adam and Eve were presumably created in "adult form," despite being factually "1 day old." So I apply this to the rest of creation also, giving the appearance of absurd age if it had formed using the atomic and chemical processes we know. IOW, God created everything in "adult form" - "good" and complete - ready to function immediately after Day 7.

    No flood could've covered the highest mountains of the whole globe without destroying Man and all life--not even the ark could've preserved them! 7 x the amount of water would've destroyed many, many creatures, if not all.
    Well, first it was God who preserved them - not the ark.

    And secondly, that's exactly what the Bible says happened, lol!

    The Lord regretted that he had made man ... "I will blot out man whom I have created" ... They were blotted out from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those who were with him in the ark. (ch. 6 & 7)
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Well it does say in Genesis 7, "All the fountains of the great deep burst forth," so there must have been major geologic activities. My opinion is that most of the flood water was subterranean, and these ruptures and aftershocks throughout the earth caused a temporary flooding until much of the water receded into the mantle where it underwent thermolysis (splitting molecules by heat). Might be one explanation for why Earth's atmosphere is full of oxygen, whereas the hydrogen escaped into orbit or was absorbed into the crust to form other compounds.
    That's one theory, but I just feel that the already scientifically proven explanations fit the biblical text best.

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    The Flood was not regional only:

    I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth ... I have set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign ... I will remember my covenant that is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh. And the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh. (Genesis 9:11)

    There have still been regional floods throughout history.



    Adam and Eve were presumably created in "adult form," despite being factually "1 day old." So I apply this to the rest of creation also, giving the appearance of absurd age if it had formed using the atomic and chemical processes we know. IOW, God created everything in "adult form" - "good" and complete - ready to function immediately after Day 7.



    Well, first it was God who preserved them - not the ark.

    And secondly, that's exactly what the Bible says happened, lol!

    The Lord regretted that he had made man ... "I will blot out man whom I have created" ... They were blotted out from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those who were with him in the ark. (ch. 6 & 7)
    True, biblically it cannot be a regional flood. There's too much emphasis on the destruction of all life.

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    The Flood was not regional only:

    I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth ... I have set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign ... I will remember my covenant that is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh. And the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh. (Genesis 9:11)

    There have still been regional floods throughout history.
    No flood in history since THE Flood have threatened the survival of Mankind. The area in which Noah's early civilization lived was completely flooded, killing all animal life within that region. The animals within that environment would've been destroyed forever, and Noah's civilization was indeed destroyed forever. God's purpose was to show that there were still some good people despite the epidemic of sin within the human race. God still destroys entire civilizations when they become unspeakably corrupt, but he still preserves remnants from them.

    I don't claim to know if *all* of mankind lived within this "cradle of civilization," where Noah lived. If so, then the Flood threatened the human race itself. And even though the Flood failed to annihilate mankind, it was the kind of Flood that could do so. This kind of Flood, destroying large groups of people, still happen. But the order and magnitude of these more recent floods have not shown what Noah's Flood showed, that Man was close to extinction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah
    Adam and Eve were presumably created in "adult form," despite being factually "1 day old." So I apply this to the rest of creation also, giving the appearance of absurd age if it had formed using the atomic and chemical processes we know. IOW, God created everything in "adult form" - "good" and complete - ready to function immediately after Day 7.
    I don't know that this has any bearing on my point. If the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the writings of Man has only been here from about 4000 BC, then there has been plenty of time for the mountains to form, carrying fossils to the top of mountains. Plants and animals preceded the creation of Man, which was much more recent than the creation of plants and animals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah
    Well, first it was God who preserved them - not the ark.
    God gave them the ark as the tool of preservation. If God saved them by tremendous miracles, there would be no need for the ark.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah
    And secondly, that's exactly what the Bible says happened, lol!

    The Lord regretted that he had made man ... "I will blot out man whom I have created" ... They were blotted out from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those who were with him in the ark. (ch. 6 & 7)
    You're inferring things from the language and from years of indoctrination by those who have read modern thought back into primitive times. My point is that if you use different synonyms for these things, showing the difference in understanding, you might understand my point.

    For example, instead of saying "God will blot out all creatures," you might say, "God will never again use an enormous flood as a tool of total genocide, or to obliterate all life--plant and animal." This is *not* saying that God does not still commit genocide. He did so with the Canaanites--He just didn't do it to suspend His original plan of having Man fill the earth. The Flood of Noah in his region had the capacity to destroy not just Man, but his habitat as well, including food, plant life, and all animal life.

    If what God in Noah's region became a tool of destroying Man then indeed all would've perished. God's point was that even though God still must punish entire societies completely corrupted by sin, His intention is not to destroy all of Mankind.

    And we should not read, "the Flood covered the whole earth," but rather, "the Flood covered the dirt as far as Noah could see, including the low-lying mountains in the region." "Mountains" has a broad application, and would apply to high hills in Noah's region. The point is, as far as one could see, there was nothing but ocean.

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No flood in history since THE Flood have threatened the survival of Mankind.
    Agreed, because no food since then has been global. That's the covenant God made with all creation, using the sign of the rainbow, that he would not wipe out all life from earth in that way ever again. As long as we agree all human and animal life was extinguished in the whole world, aside from Noah and those on the ark, then other details like geology can be harmless speculation. So my point perhaps is less about the scientific surface area of the flood, and more the totality - that all life God created was destroyed besides the families on the ark.

    I don't claim to know if *all* of mankind lived within this "cradle of civilization," where Noah lived. If so, then the Flood threatened the human race itself.
    If people or animals survived that were not on the ark, then God's covenant really gives no meaning or comfort, because there is no way to measure the scale of flooding that He's talking about preventing. In China for example there have been flood events which have killed millions of people just in the last century. So either God broke His promise or the Great Flood was something totally different than a mere regional purge along the lines of Sodom or Canaan.

    I'm pretty sure we agree on this, but just adding emphasis because I think this is at least one point we can be certain of, and run the risk of implying God lied. All land life went extinct except for those spared by the ark.

    Every living thing that I have made I will blot out from the face of the ground [....] And all flesh died [...] all mankind. Everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died. (ch. 7)

    As far as I know, this type of language is not used in any localized destruction throughout the rest of the Bible - specifically God referring to "every living thing I have made." When God ordered the destruction of Jericho for example, despite killing "man and beast", I do not believe He ever referred back to the creation week or said "I am sorry I have made them." Noah's flood was about creation itself and the destruction of all life throughout creation, not just regional judgment. This is also why there is no other judgment in the Bible where God preserves pairs of each type of animal. There were no other living replacements, and the entire earth needed to be repopulated (again, "be fruitful and multiply").

    This type of event, judgment against all creation through flood will never happen again. I don't see a Biblical reason preventing Genesis 7 from being global, but I'm open to alternatives - as long as the theory doesn't leave room for any person or land animal throughout all creation surviving somewhere other than the ark.

    I don't know that this has any bearing on my point. If the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the writings of Man has only been here from about 4000 BC ...
    I'm saying the earth was created as "an adult" with an apparent age of 4.5 billion years, with all the scientific processes necessary for its formation already completed at conception. Likewise, Adam and Eve were created with apparent ages of let's say 30 - with all the scientific processes of human growth already completed.

    God gave them the ark as the tool of preservation.
    But you said "not even the ark could have preserved them" if the Flood was literally that severe - which implies the saving power was from the ark and not God. I'm sure there was someone else who had a boat or ship and still died in the flood. The ark itself is not what saved Noah.

    If what God in Noah's region became a tool of destroying Man then indeed all would've perished.
    All did perish. Unless you can show me a verse/passage which says otherwise?

    And we should not read, "the Flood covered the whole earth," but rather, "the Flood covered the dirt as far as Noah could see
    Keep in mind this is Moses writing about history, not Noah's perspective. If he wanted to say that this was just a regional event, he could have done so easily, as all of his books go to great lengths to describe the exact locations and scales of events.
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    The Bible claims it was a global flood in this wording in Genesis chapters 6-9:

    I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it.

    The waters:" rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. "

    Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died

    .And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

    Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood

    Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant.

    The destruction of terrestrial life was universal.

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    God is not in the habit of deceiving.Genesis 1 says the earth existed before creation week, and was formless and empty. So the Bible does not support a young earth.

    But additionally God would not deceive by making the planet look old. All fossils of those life forms mentioned in Genesis 1 are less than 7000 years old. Biblical fact.

    Although I'm one who believes in relative time frames of the geologic column, I cannot agree with actual time frames suggested by scientists.

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    But additionally God would not deceive by making the planet look old.
    IOW God is being deceptive because we can't fact check Him? Why can God not create something fully-functional from the start?

    Genesis 1 says the earth existed before creation week, and was formless and empty.
    Exactly, and dry land didn't appear until day 3. Interpreting history with science also conflicts with the Bible, because the earth and plant life actually preceded the creation of the sun:

    The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit ... the third day. (ch. 1)
    And God made the two great lights - the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night ... the fourth day. (ch. 1)

    Trees bearing fruit before even photosynthesis can occur. So clearly someone's timetable is wrong. There's simply no time for mountains to form over millions of years and yet also be consistent with Genesis. I used to be a gap theorist also until I found myself unable to resolve this problem. It frankly doesn't matter how much time there was between verse 2 and 3, because nothing that we observe today was even created yet.
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    IOW God is being deceptive because we can't fact check Him? Why can God not create something fully-functional from the start?
    Because then reality is not reliable.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Exactly, and dry land didn't appear until day 3. Interpreting history with science also conflicts with the Bible, because the earth and plant life actually preceded the creation of the sun:

    The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit ... the third day. (ch. 1)
    And God made the two great lights - the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night ... the fourth day. (ch. 1)

    Trees bearing fruit before even photosynthesis can occur. So clearly someone's timetable is wrong. There's simply no time for mountains to form over millions of years and yet also be consistent with Genesis. I used to be a gap theorist also until I found myself unable to resolve this problem. It frankly doesn't matter how much time there was between verse 2 and 3, because nothing that we observe today was even created yet.
    And this is why the idea of the 'Container' (days 1-3), and Contents (days 4-6) make a whole lot of sense and completely render it unnecessary to even force the concordism of science and the Biblical narrative.

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