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Thread: Location: Garden of Eden

  1. #76
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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You've just thrown out all scientific evidence as "unreliable" because you believe the Bible indicates a "Young Earth." If we deny science, we can make anything work. That's not the way I wish to do things. It does not "witness" to anybody. Blind Faith is not what convinces the world of a Creator.

    Do you really think that radiometric dating has been invalidated, due to the evidence that cosmic rays can have some effect on the results? I should think that the more likely thought is that ages may be skewed somewhat, but not as evidence of a Young Earth? Regardless, I'm not the best one to argue for an advanced age for the Earth. There are plenty of resources available.
    I'm not a young earther, never have been. I'm not YEC

    I take the Bible too literally to be YEC, the Bible describes a dark watery earth before the light and the first day were created, I believe in an old universe and old earth before the first day of creation week.

    Radiometric dating has the potential to be invalidated now that we know that decay is not a constant. Until the unknown influence is discovered, and it's extent measured under conditions of complete solar blackout, and complete solar exposure, we will not know the extent of the effect.

    This effect needs to be measured on the actual isotopes used for radiometric dating which have really long half-lives. Up until now, studies have not been done according to those parameters I have just suggested.

    To conclude without evidence is unscientific, there is complete uncertainty over decay rates at the moment that has not been acknowledged by the scientific community. I don't deny science at all, instead I enjoy the use of proper science to reach a conclusion, not guesswork based on past incorrect assumptions of constancy.

  2. #77
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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by teddyv View Post
    I can't think of any way to actually prove or disprove the height of the ranges from pre-Permian times. If tectonics were comparable then, and there is little reason to think otherwise, then we can certainly infer that the mountains built at collision boundaries were pretty similar. That does not answer the question, I suppose.

    I think earlier you said that there was water currently to put the surface under 2.5km? Where did you get that from? I looked up something which said that the icecaps and mountain glacier water would raise the sea level some 70 metres if totally melted. There is water locked up in the crust and mantle, but that is not readily available to come to surface.
    If you admit there is uncertainty regarding the height of historical mountain ranges, do you see any logic in the claim that there's never been enough water on earth for a global flood?

    I don't see any logic in that claim, the amount of water in the oceans is known, and as you say there could be further volumes of water. You mention the Blue Ridge Mountains, yes they may be on the fringe of placing doubt on my PT boundary flood hypothesis due to their significant height then, but we really don't know enough about their precise height.

  3. #78
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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Wikipedia : Ocean: The total volume is approximately 1.35 billion cubic kilometers (320 million cu mi) with an average depth of nearly 3,700 meters (12,100 ft).

    The ocean covers 71 percent of earth, so if you spread that average depth of 3700m over the remaining 29 percent of earth... You can do the math, it's 2.63km. If we add an extra 2.5 percent for fresh water, ice caps, lakes etc, then it's 2.7km plus your mention of subterranean water deposits.

    That's more than enough water to cover the earth with a global flood, provided the mountains weren't too high at the moment of the flood.

  4. #79
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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I'm not a young earther, never have been. I'm not YEC

    I take the Bible too literally to be YEC, the Bible describes a dark watery earth before the light and the first day were created, I believe in an old universe and old earth before the first day of creation week.

    Radiometric dating has the potential to be invalidated now that we know that decay is not a constant. Until the unknown influence is discovered, and it's extent measured under conditions of complete solar blackout, and complete solar exposure, we will not know the extent of the effect.

    This effect needs to be measured on the actual isotopes used for radiometric dating which have really long half-lives. Up until now, studies have not been done according to those parameters I have just suggested.

    To conclude without evidence is unscientific, there is complete uncertainty over decay rates at the moment that has not been acknowledged by the scientific community. I don't deny science at all, instead I enjoy the use of proper science to reach a conclusion, not guesswork based on past incorrect assumptions of constancy.
    Sorry, your view twists my mind a bit, because it's not what I'm used to. You believe in an old earth, but you also believe we have no timing measure by which to determine when certain events happened.

    The P/T boundary event is not 250 million years, but only 4-5000 years ago. You use the "Gap Theory" to explain the long age of the earth as a "primordial" deep for many millions of years, with most of the relevant activity taking place only in the last 10,000 years or less?

    So you cram what geological ages into the last 10,000 years? What ages took place at lightning speed to produce and reduce mountain ranges to being flat?

    And how is the supposition that a completely level earth, making a global flood possible, even relevant? It doesn't seem likely that there ever was such an earth! How old do you think the Grand Canyon was?

  5. #80
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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Sorry, your view twists my mind a bit, because it's not what I'm used to. You believe in an old earth, but you also believe we have no timing measure by which to determine when certain events happened.

    The P/T boundary event is not 250 million years, but only 4-5000 years ago. You use the "Gap Theory" to explain the long age of the earth as a "primordial" deep for many millions of years, with most of the relevant activity taking place only in the last 10,000 years or less?

    So you cram what geological ages into the last 10,000 years? What ages took place at lightning speed to produce and reduce mountain ranges to being flat?

    And how is the supposition that a completely level earth, making a global flood possible, even relevant? It doesn't seem likely that there ever was such an earth! How old do you think the Grand Canyon was?
    I have never claimed a completely level earth and have communicated this clearly to you. In post 68 I said to you that "the world was not completely flat, I am not claiming it was flat. But it was certainly flatter than at present. " I am hoping that you will take note of that. Teddyv has pointed out that the Blue Ridge Mountains were significant at the PT boundary, which is where I place the flood, because this is where geology places significant worldwide flooding, and geology places the Great Death there too, the wiping out of multiple species in a great extinction event. We do not know how high those mountains were.

    Before creation week is an unknown period of darkness, too dark for life. Then creation week created life just over 6000 years ago, and I believe this occurred During the late Precambrian. So yes I "cram" from then on into a 6000 year timeframe. Although I dont believe "cram" is the correct word, scientists currently "stretch/elongate" normal biblical time frames to a ridiculous extent.

    The flood is represented by the disarticulated fossils (broken fossils) of the late Permian , until the barren fossil free landscapes of the early Triassic. The later dinosaurs being post flood sea-dwelling reptiles that adapted to terrestrial life during the period that ark life was recovering in Middle East. The layering in the Grand Canyon was formed pre-flood, the flood carved the canyon through all that pre-flood layering.

    Some people like to exaggerate their objections to rapid tectonic movement and rapid mountain building but have no science to back this up, just speculation.

  6. #81
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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Wikipedia : Ocean: The total volume is approximately 1.35 billion cubic kilometers (320 million cu mi) with an average depth of nearly 3,700 meters (12,100 ft).

    The ocean covers 71 percent of earth, so if you spread that average depth of 3700m over the remaining 29 percent of earth... You can do the math, it's 2.63km. If we add an extra 2.5 percent for fresh water, ice caps, lakes etc, then it's 2.7km plus your mention of subterranean water deposits.

    That's more than enough water to cover the earth with a global flood, provided the mountains weren't too high at the moment of the flood.
    I can't do the math because I don't have enough information nor do I understand what you are doing. You seem to be adding the 3700 m to only the land surface area? But what about the oceans? Everything has to rise up equally. around the globe.
    Do not say, “Why were the old days better than these?” For it is not wise to ask such questions.
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  7. #82
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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by teddyv View Post
    I can't do the math because I don't have enough information nor do I understand what you are doing. You seem to be adding the 3700 m to only the land surface area? But what about the oceans? Everything has to rise up equally. around the globe.
    I'm just saying there's a lot of water here on earth, enough to cover the whole planet by 2.7 km if it was a perfect sphere.

    Its not a perfect sphere and never was, but we do not know how high the mountains were, so we can't say there isn't enough volume of water to cover the earth.

    At the end Permian, the ice cap and glaciation was exponentially larger than today, if that melted, how can anyone be certain the Appalachians were too high to be covered by water? This is what I'm saying.

  8. #83
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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I'm just saying there's a lot of water here on earth, enough to cover the whole planet by 2.7 km if it was a perfect sphere.

    Its not a perfect sphere and never was, but we do not know how high the mountains were, so we can't say there isn't enough volume of water to cover the earth.

    At the end Permian, the ice cap and glaciation was exponentially larger than today, if that melted, how can anyone be certain the Appalachians were too high to be covered by water? This is what I'm saying.
    OK, I think I am tracking. All we've got is the oceans and what's locked up in the ice caps and glaciers. Are you averaging out the earth's surface be it the ocean bottom or the dry land to a perfect sphere? That I guess would possibly get us to the 2.7km average depth. That's interesting for an average I suppose, but it seems a stretch to make the leap you are doing.

    And anyway, just to refresh my memory, since I believe you suggest the Flood was at the P-T period, do you consider the other ranges like the Rockies, Himalayas, Andes are all post-Flood ranges?
    Do not say, “Why were the old days better than these?” For it is not wise to ask such questions.
    Ecc 7:10

    John777 exists to me only in quoted form.



  9. #84
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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I have never claimed a completely level earth and have communicated this clearly to you. In post 68 I said to you that "the world was not completely flat, I am not claiming it was flat. But it was certainly flatter than at present. " I am hoping that you will take note of that. Teddyv has pointed out that the Blue Ridge Mountains were significant at the PT boundary, which is where I place the flood, because this is where geology places significant worldwide flooding, and geology places the Great Death there too, the wiping out of multiple species in a great extinction event. We do not know how high those mountains were.
    But there is reason to believe the waters covered the earth in the beginning as well, right? How are we to know the PT boundary, with its own evidence of global waters, is the Flood of Noah? It seems unreasonable to me to believe geological ages are sort of "sped up" to render the waters receding, with a relatively "flat" earth, and then see this undone by Noah's "global" flood!

    I acknowledge that you believe the earth was "flatter than today." I don't know how you know how "flat" the earth was in the time of Noah. All I know is that Noah referred to "mountains" in his time. In other words, the earth was not remotely "flat!"

    How long do you think it would take for the original mountains on earth to "flatten?" For example:Click

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude
    Before creation week is an unknown period of darkness, too dark for life. Then creation week created life just over 6000 years ago, and I believe this occurred During the late Precambrian. So yes I "cram" from then on into a 6000 year timeframe. Although I dont believe "cram" is the correct word, scientists currently "stretch/elongate" normal biblical time frames to a ridiculous extent.
    I don't agree. Scientists don't "elongate" anything. They base their sense of time on scientific measurements--not just by dating rocks, but by other methods as well. On the other hand, you base your conjectures on *your view* of the Scriptures, and on opposition to science. Don't get me wrong. I know you "think" and are not purely "emotional" in your views. I'm just countering, brother. You're a good man. Nothing personal.

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude
    The flood is represented by the disarticulated fossils (broken fossils) of the late Permian , until the barren fossil free landscapes of the early Triassic. The later dinosaurs being post flood sea-dwelling reptiles that adapted to terrestrial life during the period that ark life was recovering in Middle East. The layering in the Grand Canyon was formed pre-flood, the flood carved the canyon through all that pre-flood layering.
    Trouble is, as I understand it, the Grand Canyon shows no evidence of a Global Flood!

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude
    Some people like to exaggerate their objections to rapid tectonic movement and rapid mountain building but have no science to back this up, just speculation.

  10. #85
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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post

    That's more than enough water to cover the earth with a global flood, provided the mountains weren't too high at the moment of the flood.
    Except the tallest mountains in the world have been that way long before Noah was alive. It just proves the flood wasn't global.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Except the tallest mountains in the world have been that way long before Noah was alive. It just proves the flood wasn't global.
    E, let me just toss this verse in and ask you, does this verse refute your claim?

    Gen 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.
    Slug1--out

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    E, let me just toss this verse in and ask you, does this verse refute your claim?

    Gen 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.
    It's speaking of the local area only.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    It's speaking of the local area only.
    Now I'm confused. Did the flood cover ALL that is under heaven, or did the flood cover only an area you say? Meaning, you are saying that the flood did not cover all the earth... correct?

    If correct, doesn't the verse refute your claim that the flood was limited to only a "local area?"
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  14. #89
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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Now I'm confused. Did the flood cover ALL that is under heaven, or did the flood cover only an area you say?
    All the local mountains under the heavens were covered. The flood was in the middle east area. It did not exist in other areas of the Earth.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Location: Garden of Eden

    Luk 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

    Here something very similar is written..."all" the world was taxed. Well...not really. Only the part that Rome controlled was taxed but scripture makes it seem on the surface that the entire world was taxed. Same with the flood. It wasn't a global flood either even though it might sound like it.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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