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Thread: These signs shall follow them that believe

  1. #31
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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    That's true. But in common practice I've run into people who have claimed I'm not saved unless I'm out preaching the gospel in the streets, if I'm wearing "worldly" clothing, or happen to be listening to secular music for the moment. This happens with Baptist and Pentecostal Christians, and not just in "cults."
    Unfortunately, I have seen that as well. I simply chalk it up to self righteousness and more times than not, call them out for it while attempting to put their focus on their own shortcomings.

    So those who hold to the orthodox gospel are susceptible to the same kind of judgmentalism. My warning here is to avoid lapsing into a kind of judgmentalism that paints an entire group as "satanic" simply because they belong to a denomination with cultic elements.
    I understand. But there is a point when and if the Gospel is added to, or watered down then they are in sin. Not only that , but very serious sin. Especially when such sin is taught and condoned.

    There is a profound difference between Oneness Pentecostals and Mormonism, for example. Mormonism claims to have the gospel, and uses the Scriptures, and yet does not actually believe in the orthodox construction of our theology. They put their own spin on it.
    Yes... and in my opinion , not the true Gospel at all.

    On the other hand, Oneness Pentecostalism actually adheres to orthodoxy on the matter of Christ's shed blood. Their "satanic" theology should not be confused with the Mormons' "satanic" theology.
    I think we have to be careful when we "include" lies among the true Gospel. This is, after all, one of the enemies most successful tactics. But yes, I understand your point.

    Therefore, I would avoid calling a Christian denomination with orthodox beliefs "satanic" at all. It may be true in essence that the theology and structure is satanic. But if you hope to win some of these people out of their "cult," I don't think it wise to refer to them as a whole as "satanic." If they are saved by the blood of Jesus, and you call them "satanic," they will feel you are evil. Where does it end?
    I agree. Calling the true church satanic is sinful. But.... let's not pretend that the enemy doesn't come to church. He does. EVERY SINGLE SUNDAY.

    Identify their theology as corrupt, but don't deny they are "saved." That's how I deal with it.
    And I agree with you and understand your point but if such corruption has run so rampant to prevent the true Gospel from being proclaimed and accepted. At which point then they are what they are. Unregenerate. That goes for Baptist's , Holiness, Pentecostal's , Methodist's .... you get my drift.

  2. #32
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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    There's mixtures of various kinds. For example, in the above example I mention Mormons, who do *not* have a genuine salvation experience, and yet mix the Christian Scriptures with their own Scriptures.

    There are also saved Christians, who mix errors with the righteousness of Christ within them. This is fact, brother. We all have the sin nature within us, and we tend to pick up false beliefs. I've spent my life trying to get my mind straight on a truth that maintains a true orthodox position. In essence that means we make Christ Lord over everything in our lives.

    Certain groups have turned to cultism, out of egotism. They've separated themselves from other denominations to make themselves appear to be more important. They want to be "God's Move in our time."

    Christians do this too--all the time! I see it right here on this forum. In the Endtimes section brothers and sisters want to have THE last word on what the Scriptures mean. Egotism enters into all of us. It takes a lifetime to work through it, and to discard these evil things that attach themselves to us.

    But there is a profound difference between those who are really saved, and those who have a completely false gospel, with no real salvation experience. I would not mix these, and confuse the differences.
    Great post and AMEN.

  3. #33
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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    There's mixtures of various kinds. For example, in the above example I mention Mormons, who do *not* have a genuine salvation experience, and yet mix the Christian Scriptures with their own Scriptures.

    There are also saved Christians, who mix errors with the righteousness of Christ within them. This is fact, brother. We all have the sin nature within us, and we tend to pick up false beliefs. I've spent my life trying to get my mind straight on a truth that maintains a true orthodox position. In essence that means we make Christ Lord over everything in our lives.

    Certain groups have turned to cultism, out of egotism. They've separated themselves from other denominations to make themselves appear to be more important. They want to be "God's Move in our time."

    Christians do this too--all the time! I see it right here on this forum. In the Endtimes section brothers and sisters want to have THE last word on what the Scriptures mean. Egotism enters into all of us. It takes a lifetime to work through it, and to discard these evil things that attach themselves to us.

    But there is a profound difference between those who are really saved, and those who have a completely false gospel, with no real salvation experience. I would not mix these, and confuse the differences.
    Hooah, understood.

    The ultimate discernment concerning theology, is Christ of the Gospel spoken/taught or does anyone teach the Christ of the theology, being pushed? If Jesus Christ of the theology is taught/preached... accepted/received, then despite ALL their praising to God that they do in Jesus' name, the name is not The Son. Despite ALL they do, in this Jesus' name, the Son of God doesn't know them. Why? Because whatever they do teach no MATTER how close to sounding accurate, isn't and is just powerless unto salvation.

    There are also saved Christians, who mix errors with the righteousness of Christ within them. This is fact, brother. We all have the sin nature within us, and we tend to pick up false beliefs.
    This is always an awesome discussion point. When we read through 1/2 Corinthians, we have 2 of 4 whole letters written to a region of just what you raised... a bunch of wild and sinful Christians who are actually operating IN the power of God in a maniac fashion

    Once they began to be properly discipled, sure seems they matured and got positionally aligned with God
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  4. #34
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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post

    This church that God has moved me to and I testified some of in a previous post. Discovered yesterday that the new pastor's wife is OSAS while the pastor is NOSAS.

    This is GREAT!! It is GREAT to be able to fellowship maturely when dealing with "negotiable" theologies of scripture.
    I agree that it's great. Great and very rare to find a place that is mature enough in their love for one another to be able to dwell in unity with each other.

  5. #35
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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Unfortunately, I have seen that as well. I simply chalk it up to self righteousness and more times than not, call them out for it while attempting to put their focus on their own shortcomings.



    I understand. But there is a point when and if the Gospel is added to, or watered down then they are in sin. Not only that , but very serious sin. Especially when such sin is taught and condoned.



    Yes... and in my opinion , not the true Gospel at all.



    I think we have to be careful when we "include" lies among the true Gospel. This is, after all, one of the enemies most successful tactics. But yes, I understand your point.



    I agree. Calling the true church satanic is sinful. But.... let's not pretend that the enemy doesn't come to church. He does. EVERY SINGLE SUNDAY.



    And I agree with you and understand your point but if such corruption has run so rampant to prevent the true Gospel from being proclaimed and accepted. At which point then they are what they are. Unregenerate. That goes for Baptist's , Holiness, Pentecostal's , Methodist's .... you get my drift.
    I'm not in the business of determining the eternal fate of "Christians." I will agree that Oneness Theology is serious. I spent a lot of time with the problem of modalism in the mid-70s, because I was for a short time caught up in Witness Lee's "Local Church." When I got into it, I eventually realized that their view of the Trinity was heretical. And upon further investigation, I recognized that they were a cult--they set themselves up above all other churches, on the authority of their leader, Witness Lee.

    It is indeed very serious when the Oneness Pentecostals set themselves up as the ones who determine who is saved based on their own authority, and not based on the authority of the Scriptures. And their view of the Trinity is heretical. Maybe you and Slug are right--maybe we should call their denomination "satanic." I'm thinking about it....

  6. #36
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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not in the business of determining the eternal fate of "Christians." I will agree that Oneness Theology is serious. I spent a lot of time with the problem of modalism in the mid-70s, because I was for a short time caught up in Witness Lee's "Local Church." When I got into it, I eventually realized that their view of the Trinity was heretical. And upon further investigation, I recognized that they were a cult--they set themselves up above all other churches, on the authority of their leader, Witness Lee.

    It is indeed very serious when the Oneness Pentecostals set themselves up as the ones who determine who is saved based on their own authority, and not based on the authority of the Scriptures. And their view of the Trinity is heretical. Maybe you and Slug are right--maybe we should call their denomination "satanic." I'm thinking about it....
    Here is where the Bible stands, if a person dies (physically) following such a doctrine and had not repented and turned to the REAL, Jesus Christ (and believe UNTO Him), prior to that their physical death:


    2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.


    Without that turning away from such a doctrine in repentance and seek after the real Jesus Christ, either one is leading others to condemnation or if not a leader, are following the leaders into condemnation.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  7. #37
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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Anything that leads people away from the true gospel is straight from the enemy. The doctrines are heretical and satanic ( generally speaking , not specifically about this topic) and the people are influenced.

  8. #38
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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Here is where the Bible stands, if a person dies (physically) following such a doctrine and had not repented and turned to the REAL, Jesus Christ (and believe UNTO Him), prior to that their physical death:


    2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.


    Without that turning away from such a doctrine in repentance and seek after the real Jesus Christ, either one is leading others to condemnation or if not a leader, are following the leaders into condemnation.
    Yea, I hear ya. I've seen lots of them. I'm pretty harsh as it is with aberrant groups. Maybe I need to be even more harsh?

  9. #39
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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yea, I hear ya. I've seen lots of them. I'm pretty harsh as it is with aberrant groups. Maybe I need to be even more harsh?
    Just speak truth and if that seems harsh then perhaps it should be ?

  10. #40
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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    We are at a time in our body where the Shepherd is about to have some medical procedures done that will have him out of commission for at least 3 months. It never fails that when the Shepherd is away, the enemy will send his nonsense. I praise God that He has raised up men in the body that will confront the wolf, not if, but when he comes to the door.

  11. #41
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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Originally Posted by randyk

    Yea, I hear ya. I've seen lots of them. I'm pretty harsh as it is with aberrant groups. Maybe I need to be even more harsh?





    Speaking the truth and with that truth, correct any false theology or outright doctrine, is not about harshness at all.

    Can the truth be construed as being presented in a harsh way? Sure. One can say that Jesus Christ was quite "harsh" with the Pharisee's. Paul was quite harsh in many of the biblical examples of the method he utilized to correct others. The one that stands out the most for me is when he called out Peter's hypocrisy in a public setting.

    Truth however, is truth and the greater the "offense" expressed by those being corrected is pushed back upon the one speaking the corrective truth, don't back down. Does that mean the one speaking the correction has to be harshER... NO! Just "stand-fast" and the truth continues to be the truth and it will seem you are harshER to the one offended as you correct them.

    Always know this, it is a "spiritual" battle and the spiritual side that is offended, will get louder, more desperate until the point of literally attempting to kill or actually effectively killing who is speaking the truth. Meaning, Christian's get persecuted, even unto death.

    Were such Christian's the "harshEST?" Nope... it simply means, they stood firm in Christ.

    So instead of using the term "harsh" you may want to have the perspective of "firm," instead.

    Be even MORE firm in the truth, like Jesus was and by the examples, many of the disciples are as well
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  12. #42
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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Just speak truth and if that seems harsh then perhaps it should be ?
    Yes, when we speak the word of God we're not to try to please man, but only God. Thanks for your good and mature advice!

  13. #43
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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Speaking the truth and with that truth, correct any false theology or outright doctrine, is not about harshness at all.

    Can the truth be construed as being presented in a harsh way? Sure. One can say that Jesus Christ was quite "harsh" with the Pharisee's. Paul was quite harsh in many of the biblical examples of the method he utilized to correct others. The one that stands out the most for me is when he called out Peter's hypocrisy in a public setting.

    Truth however, is truth and the greater the "offense" expressed by those being corrected is pushed back upon the one speaking the corrective truth, don't back down. Does that mean the one speaking the correction has to be harshER... NO! Just "stand-fast" and the truth continues to be the truth and it will seem you are harshER to the one offended as you correct them.

    Always know this, it is a "spiritual" battle and the spiritual side that is offended, will get louder, more desperate until the point of literally attempting to kill or actually effectively killing who is speaking the truth. Meaning, Christian's get persecuted, even unto death.

    Were such Christian's the "harshEST?" Nope... it simply means, they stood firm in Christ.

    So instead of using the term "harsh" you may want to have the perspective of "firm," instead.

    Be even MORE firm in the truth, like Jesus was and by the examples, many of the disciples are as well
    Okay, "firm" it is!

  14. #44

    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    [FONT="]I was recently in a discussion with a Pentecostal who cited the following verses below in an effort to teach that ONLY those who believe and are baptized will be saved, along with these signs mentioned below MUST follow or else you have not been saved. He calls that the gospel. He especially heavily focuses on tongues and believes that everyone who has not spoken in tongues have not received the Holy Spirit and are not saved. Just how wide spread is that ludicrous doctrine within Pentecostal circles?

    Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and [/FONT]
    [FONT="]preach the gospel[/FONT][FONT="] to every creature.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]17 [/FONT][FONT="]And these signs shall follow them that believe;[/FONT][FONT="] In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;[/FONT]
    [FONT="]18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.[/FONT]

    [FONT="]19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, [/FONT]and confirming the word with signs following.
    I know many cannot accept this, but this part of Mark doesn't sound like Jesus at all. I speak with Him on a daily basis and this just doesn't fit His voice. I asked Him about this and He told me that He didn't say it, and then He showed me where this was added some 1400 years after His death. But, I know how so many love religion in the church, just like the Pharisees. Religion is nothing but a justification for doing evil. In this case, it is a weapon used to cause people to doubt their salvation, and a way to control people. These are satan's ways, not God's.

  15. #45
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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnE View Post
    I know many cannot accept this, but this part of Mark doesn't sound like Jesus at all. I speak with Him on a daily basis and this just doesn't fit His voice. I asked Him about this and He told me that He didn't say it, and then He showed me where this was added some 1400 years after His death. But, I know how so many love religion in the church, just like the Pharisees. Religion is nothing but a justification for doing evil. In this case, it is a weapon used to cause people to doubt their salvation, and a way to control people. These are satan's ways, not God's.
    The greatest Gentile king who ever lived, who is a Type of the coming Beast, and of whom God said in Daniel 2:37-38 ...

    37 "Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
    38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold."


    ..., when God had suitably chastised him for seven years, said this of God in Daniel 4:34-35;

    34 "And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
    35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"


    That is, God not only has total power over men and their doings, but men's mechanisms "are as NOTHING" to God. Do you think that the Bible, as it stands to day, with the closing verses of Mark included in all the influential translations, even those who don't use the Alexandrian texts, and which has stood for over 1,700 years, is men's ability to overpower God? Or has God exercised His power to have the version He wanted?

    If these verses are added, God allowed it. He has allowed His faithful to have them. And then again, what grand truth do these verses overturn? Or are they in harmony with the rest of the Bible?

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