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Thread: These signs shall follow them that believe

  1. #16
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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    I read your entire post, this part raised a thought.

    When Simon (Acts 8) "saw" what was happening when the visiting Apostles were laying on of hands and the Holy Spirit was given in power to the "baptized/redeemed" Christian... he coveted that power. The reason he coveted was due to the "intent" of his heart (Acts 8:19-24).

    This "intent" is fleshly (human spirit) but can also be inspired of the devil as well. We are warned of "doctrines of devils" (1 Tim 4) and this Pentecostal "Oneness" doctrine is such a devilish doctrine. Both satan and mankind, due to our unrighteousness since falling, crave (covet) power and this false theology is just one of the many products of man coveting of power.
    You hit on a very good point. My answer is aimed at no-one in particular, but the matter of Simon is Acts 8:7-25, I think, lies at the root cause of the problem addressed in this thread. In a recent survey of middle school children who were starting to take a direction for their careers, the most popular dream, was, by far, to be famous. Even the one child who wanted to be a doctor said that he wanted to be a doctor so he could be a TV doctor and be famous. Some years ago I visited Monaco. My wife and I stood outside the famous Casino and watched Bentley after Rolls Royce convertibles pull up and fabulously wealthy people get out and leave their half a million dollar cars to valet. I turned and quizzed my wife. AS each car pulled up I said to her, "who are they?". My wife did not know one of the people who left their cars to valets and, in equisite attire, entered the Casino. And so I said to her that these people were suffering. They has all the money for villa's, cars, boats, planes and the high life, but they were NOBODIES. They were unknown - and it was a sore thing in their lives.

    Notice now the problem with Simon the Samaritan. He was famous. Then he converted and was Baptized. There is no record of him exercising any of the gifts, but the POWER that one receives in one or more of the gifts was not the problem. Simon wanted, not the power to speak in an unknown tongue, nor to teach, nor to raise the dead. HE WANTED TO BE THE ONE TO GIVE THAT POWER! He wanted to be the Holy Spirit. And he, after a lifetime of corruption, thought that it could be bought. He did not want to be famous for healing the sick. He wanted the TOP FAME - the GIVER of the power to heal the sick. He misjudged the laying of hands!

    The laying of hands, if you noticed, was very prevalent at the beginning of Acts. But as the New Testament advanced, it became less common. Why? The reason was that as the fledgling Church started to spread, so did the counterfeits. The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares predicted it. Also predicted were false Christs. So what did God do to combat this? He allowed the Church to be established with a sign that always went back to Jerusalem. Peter and the Apostles had to lay hands on men for things. This identified the miracles and gifts with what happened at Jerusalem - the cross and the resurrection. And the men who were CONNECTED to Jerusalem had, in turn, to lay their hands on people like Paul. When a dispute arose about the Law or circumcision, Paul, even though he knew the truth, went back to Jerusalem to have things established. The laying of hands was not to show that the Apostles had special powers, but that the special powers that the Holy Spirit gave were CONNECTED TO JERUSALEM. Simon misjudged this and thought that the Holy Spirit could be bought. In this, he defamed the GIVER.

    But mercy follows, for Simon was just a product of his past. If he sat under the Apostles teaching for 2 or more years he would, like most of us, get the picture and not say such stupid things. But how does this connect us with the Pentecostals? The Pentecostal Leaders, some of them, RECOGNIZE what Simon recognized. You become famous if you are the GIVER of power. I condemn no particular person. But we have a hoard of Pentecostal Leaders who (i) earn their living from the congregation, and (ii) love FAME like all men (including me). And so, if they can convince the congregation that they have special powers, they (i) get more money, and (ii) get more FAME. But here is the punchline!

    To drastically increase their NET WORTH, they not only do not tell the congregation that it is the Holy Spirit that is the GIVER, and NOT THEM, but they, like the Catholic Church, convince the congregation that their power is so great that if you don't get it you are NOT SAVED. This dramatically ups the ante. I have seen, over and over again, the queues of saints waiting for some "renown" Pastor, to lay hands on them, shake them, "slay them in the Spirit", or even spit on them so that they can get this power. The great dread is that nothing happens. If nothing happens they (i) are failures, and (ii) their salvation is null and void - a terrifying prospect. And so the Pastor who has this power is VALUABLE to the congregation. He is WORTH a lot and is FAMOUS - being the man who can set great things in order.

    They are Simon the Samaritan. And although I am not a gambling man, I'll bet that the thread was started because of this.

  2. #17
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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    I read your entire post, this part raised a thought.

    When Simon (Acts 8) "saw" what was happening when the visiting Apostles were laying on of hands and the Holy Spirit was given in power to the "baptized/redeemed" Christian... he coveted that power. The reason he coveted was due to the "intent" of his heart (Acts 8:19-24).

    This "intent" is fleshly (human spirit) but can also be inspired of the devil as well. We are warned of "doctrines of devils" (1 Tim 4) and this Pentecostal "Oneness" doctrine is such a devilish doctrine. Both satan and mankind, due to our unrighteousness since falling, crave (covet) power and this false theology is just one of the many products of man coveting of power.
    Very true. However, I wouldn't go so far as to brand a Christian sect like this, that is otherwise pretty orthodox, "satanic." Lots of things we believe or do in our lives can be so branded, because we are all tainted by the temptation to be the arbiter of who is saved or not. We want to hold the "golden key" to divine blessing and prosperity. We want to mentor others, to be their "teacher." Paul spoke of this:

    Rom 2.17 Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God; 18 if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19 if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of little children, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21 you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself?

    The problem is when we separate ourselves from the love of God, and then use "truth" as a cudgel to beat people into submission to ourselves. We want to "own" the truth, and in so doing leave the authority and presence of God behind.

    We must indeed judge this kind of behavior and this kind of doctrine. We should expose it using the Scriptures. But we have to be careful to not overdo the judging by consigning all human error and all Christian imperfection to "satanic activity."

    There is a cultic element to the Jesus-Only belief system. And it needs to be exposed. But they otherwise hold to orthodox beliefs, and we need to not confuse the two things.

    In my own denomination, the AoG, there are similar kinds of beliefs, although they don't go as far, thinking those who don't practice glossolalia aren't saved. They just look down on those who don't speak in tongues, and try to maintain a more loving attitude towards those who don't. They do place Christian conversion as the primary thing, to make Christ Lord of our lives.

    My own belief is that not all are given to speak in tongues. I can fully understand my denomination's position that all *should* speak in tongues, because on the Day of Pentecost *all* spoke in tongues in the Upper Room.

    However, there is, I think, an even stronger argument that the Day of Pentecost was a "one off" and that when groups en masse speak in tongues this is only a temporary phenomena. We read from Paul in 1 Corinthians that the Holy Spirit determines who has what gifts. Even if for a single moment I speak in tongues that does not mean that the Holy Spirit is gifting me with that gift. I may prophecy once, but not regularly use it as a "gift."

    And clearly, in the same vein Paul says that not all are apostles or prophets. Though it may be argued that we may speak in tongues only once it may *not* be said that I *ever* was an apostle!

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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Originally Posted by randyk

    Very true. However, I wouldn't go so far as to brand a Christian sect like this, that is otherwise pretty orthodox, "satanic." Lots of things we believe or do in our lives can be so branded, because we are all tainted by the temptation to be the arbiter of who is saved or not. We want to hold the "golden key" to divine blessing and prosperity. We want to mentor others, to be their "teacher." Paul spoke of this:

    Rom 2.17 Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God; 18 if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19 if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of little children, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21 you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself?

    The problem is when we separate ourselves from the love of God, and then use "truth" as a cudgel to beat people into submission to ourselves. We want to "own" the truth, and in so doing leave the authority and presence of God behind.

    We must indeed judge this kind of behavior and this kind of doctrine. We should expose it using the Scriptures. But we have to be careful to not overdo the judging by consigning all human error and all Christian imperfection to "satanic activity."

    There is a cultic element to the Jesus-Only belief system. And it needs to be exposed. But they otherwise hold to orthodox beliefs, and we need to not confuse the two things.

    In my own denomination, the AoG, there are similar kinds of beliefs, although they don't go as far, thinking those who don't practice glossolalia aren't saved. They just look down on those who don't speak in tongues, and try to maintain a more loving attitude towards those who don't. They do place Christian conversion as the primary thing, to make Christ Lord of our lives.

    My own belief is that not all are given to speak in tongues. I can fully understand my denomination's position that all *should* speak in tongues, because on the Day of Pentecost *all* spoke in tongues in the Upper Room.

    However, there is, I think, an even stronger argument that the Day of Pentecost was a "one off" and that when groups en masse speak in tongues this is only a temporary phenomena. We read from Paul in 1 Corinthians that the Holy Spirit determines who has what gifts. Even if for a single moment I speak in tongues that does not mean that the Holy Spirit is gifting me with that gift. I may prophecy once, but not regularly use it as a "gift."

    And clearly, in the same vein Paul says that not all are apostles or prophets. Though it may be argued that we may speak in tongues only once it may *not* be said that I *ever* was an apostle!



    I will comment... in Mt 7, there are "Christians" who call out Lord, Lord... they claim their works to the Lord too. An element in the "theology" they followed, be it satanic or not had an eternal consequence.

    You raised the term "cultic," brother, that is just a different word FOR satanic. Will Jesus ignore the cultic/satanic "portion" of orthodox beliefs? Based on Mt 7 and the Lord, Lord example, NO... He will not. The "orthodox" portions of what those "Christians" followed no matter HOW aligned with scripture they are, MATTERED NOT!
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  4. #19
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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    I will comment... in Mt 7, there are "Christians" who call out Lord, Lord... they claim their works to the Lord too. An element in the "theology" they followed, be it satanic or not had an eternal consequence.

    You raised the term "cultic," brother, that is just a different word FOR satanic. Will Jesus ignore the cultic/satanic "portion" of orthodox beliefs? Based on Mt 7 and the Lord, Lord example, NO... He will not. The "orthodox" portions of what those "Christians" followed no matter HOW aligned with scripture they are, MATTERED NOT!
    Amen, and I believe that the statement from Jesus when He said " I never knew you" sort of puts it all into perspective. Those who were in the church, or in the religious organization of the day were not IN CHRIST. Repentance and belief bring new birth and the indwelling of the Spirit, and hence the promise of eternal life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    I will comment... in Mt 7, there are "Christians" who call out Lord, Lord... they claim their works to the Lord too. An element in the "theology" they followed, be it satanic or not had an eternal consequence.

    You raised the term "cultic," brother, that is just a different word FOR satanic. Will Jesus ignore the cultic/satanic "portion" of orthodox beliefs? Based on Mt 7 and the Lord, Lord example, NO... He will not. The "orthodox" portions of what those "Christians" followed no matter HOW aligned with scripture they are, MATTERED NOT!
    Amen, and I believe that the statement from Jesus when He said " I never knew you" sort of puts it all into perspective. Those who were in the church, or in the religious organization of the day were not IN CHRIST. Repentance and belief bring new birth and the indwelling of the Spirit, and hence the promise of eternal life.

  5. #20
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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    I will comment... in Mt 7, there are "Christians" who call out Lord, Lord... they claim their works to the Lord too. An element in the "theology" they followed, be it satanic or not had an eternal consequence.

    You raised the term "cultic," brother, that is just a different word FOR satanic. Will Jesus ignore the cultic/satanic "portion" of orthodox beliefs? Based on Mt 7 and the Lord, Lord example, NO... He will not. The "orthodox" portions of what those "Christians" followed no matter HOW aligned with scripture they are, MATTERED NOT!
    The trouble with that, brother, is that you will end up calling me "satanic," and I will end up calling you "satanic." While it's true Jesus called Peter "satanic," I don't think it's a good practice to call entire Christian denominations "satanic." But follow your own guidance. We each have to do what the Lord leads us to do.

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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Amen, and I believe that the statement from Jesus when He said " I never knew you" sort of puts it all into perspective. Those who were in the church, or in the religious organization of the day were not IN CHRIST. Repentance and belief bring new birth and the indwelling of the Spirit, and hence the promise of eternal life.
    Do you really believe that Bishop T.D. Jakes was satanic, and presided over a "satanic" organization when he was "oneness" in theology? Do you really believe that he was just saying "Lord, Lord," and didn't really believe--wasn't really saved?

    I'm happy that Jakes apparently gave up on the "oneness" theology to embrace Trinitarianism. But I would never have called him "unsaved"--not even while he was still "oneness" in theology.

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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The trouble with that, brother, is that you will end up calling me "satanic," and I will end up calling you "satanic." While it's true Jesus called Peter "satanic," I don't think it's a good practice to call entire Christian denominations "satanic." But follow your own guidance. We each have to do what the Lord leads us to do.
    Will/Would "the Lord" lead any "one" person, to follow Oneness theology?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Will/Would "the Lord" lead any "one" person, to follow Oneness theology?
    I don't know. I don't like them either. But there appears to be "brothers and sisters" among them. I have to pray for them. Calling them "satanic" won't win them over, in my view.

    I don't disagree that the view they have is corrupt, both modalism and "salvation by works," which seems to be the outcome of their belief that salvation comes by doing certain things. They believe that one must be baptized by immersion to be saved, and that salvation is evidenced by speaking in tongues. Their belief in the shed blood of Christ for their sins, however, is fine.

    The distance between our views may be very slim... They are, in my view, a cult. And it is indeed harmful to our faith. But do they have faith in their denomination? I think so.

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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Originally Posted by randyk

    I don't know. I don't like them either. But there appears to be "brothers and sisters" among them. I have to pray for them. Calling them "satanic" won't win them over, in my view.

    I don't disagree that the view they have is corrupt, both modalism and "salvation by works," which seems to be the outcome of their belief that salvation comes by doing certain things. They believe that one must be baptized by immersion to be saved, and that salvation is evidenced by speaking in tongues. Their belief in the shed blood of Christ for their sins, however, is fine.

    The distance between our views may be very slim... They are, in my view, a cult. And it is indeed harmful to our faith. But do they have faith in their denomination? I think so.


    Those calling Lord, Lord had "faith" also, as the Bible reveals that they healed others and cast out demons

    This is one of the greatest problems on this very message board. When a doctrine is "satanic" and declared as such, and any "one" person follows such a doctrine (any), the bondage of that doctrine over them tends to "MAKE" that person offended as they take the truth about the doctrine... PERSONAL.

    Calling a doctrine satanic is not calling a person satanic, it is a declaration of seriousness in effort to CORRECT and FREE one in bondage to such a doctrine. If a person who is in such error always takes it personal, this is evidence of the control/bondage that the doctrine HAS over the person. As one (who is attempting to correct) experiences MORE of this (as they call out false teaching), evidence of how serious a doctrine of the devil is (the control it has), becomes VERY evident.

    But do they have faith in their denomination? I think so.
    The word "but" has me wondering about your meaning. "Faith" in their denomination meaning, they are taught/indoctrinated that denominational tenets/rituals/traditions... saves?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Do you really believe that Bishop T.D. Jakes was satanic, and presided over a "satanic" organization when he was "oneness" in theology? Do you really believe that he was just saying "Lord, Lord," and didn't really believe--wasn't really saved?

    I'm happy that Jakes apparently gave up on the "oneness" theology to embrace Trinitarianism. But I would never have called him "unsaved"--not even while he was still "oneness" in theology.
    Not necessarily. But I do believe that some who push a false Gospel certainly are. I have listened to T.D. for years and haven't heard him promote / preach such , even when / if he held those beliefs. I do believe that someone who would insist that believing in a false doctrine being necessary for salvation are indeed blinded and unregenerate , as they are trusting in an object outside of the blood for said salvation.

    We have the negotiable doctrines and the non-negotiable doctrines. I'm speaking of the non-negotiable.

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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Not necessarily. But I do believe that some who push a false Gospel certainly are. I have listened to T.D. for years and haven't heard him promote / preach such , even when / if he held those beliefs. I do believe that someone who would insist that believing in a false doctrine being necessary for salvation are indeed blinded and unregenerate , as they are trusting in an object outside of the blood for said salvation.

    We have the negotiable doctrines and the non-negotiable doctrines. I'm speaking of the non-negotiable.
    This church that God has moved me to and I testified some of in a previous post. Discovered yesterday that the new pastor's wife is OSAS while the pastor is NOSAS.

    This is GREAT!! It is GREAT to be able to fellowship maturely when dealing with "negotiable" theologies of scripture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Not necessarily. But I do believe that some who push a false Gospel certainly are. I have listened to T.D. for years and haven't heard him promote / preach such , even when / if he held those beliefs. I do believe that someone who would insist that believing in a false doctrine being necessary for salvation are indeed blinded and unregenerate , as they are trusting in an object outside of the blood for said salvation.

    We have the negotiable doctrines and the non-negotiable doctrines. I'm speaking of the non-negotiable.
    This church that God has moved me to and I testified some of in a previous post. Discovered yesterday that the new pastor's wife is OSAS while the pastor is NOSAS.

    This is GREAT!! It is GREAT to be able to fellowship maturely when dealing with "negotiable" theologies of scripture.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Those calling Lord, Lord had "faith" also, as the Bible reveals that they healed others and cast out demons

    This is one of the greatest problems on this very message board. When a doctrine is "satanic" and declared as such, and any "one" person follows such a doctrine (any), the bondage of that doctrine over them tends to "MAKE" that person offended as they take the truth about the doctrine... PERSONAL.

    Calling a doctrine satanic is not calling a person satanic, it is a declaration of seriousness in effort to CORRECT and FREE one in bondage to such a doctrine. If a person who is in such error always takes it personal, this is evidence of the control/bondage that the doctrine HAS over the person. As one (who is attempting to correct) experiences MORE of this (as they call out false teaching), evidence of how serious a doctrine of the devil is (the control it has), becomes VERY evident.

    The word "but" has me wondering about your meaning. "Faith" in their denomination meaning, they are taught/indoctrinated that denominational tenets/rituals/traditions... saves?
    No, I'm talking about "faith" for salvation--not just belief in God, or faith in the Denomination as such. There is real faith for salvation in that denomination, as I understand it.

    Egotism gets into certain Christian groups, and they become a "cult." I agree with you on that.

    But often people grow up in that tradition, have faith, and have nothing to do with the egotistic structure designed to judge. When we brand whole denominations "satanic," we cut off all communication, in my view.

    It's not that there isn't satanic elements to the theology. It's just that some of the people may not be satanic in demeanor, holding to theology they were raised up in. I'm not sure it helps them to describe their views "truthfully," as you say, when the word "satanic" has a derogatory element to it as well?

    Well, then, how can we expose the egotism and evil in the theology? It would *not* be by referring to the whole denomination as evil. Rather, it would be by exposing the evil in the theology. That's my point.

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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Not necessarily. But I do believe that some who push a false Gospel certainly are. I have listened to T.D. for years and haven't heard him promote / preach such , even when / if he held those beliefs. I do believe that someone who would insist that believing in a false doctrine being necessary for salvation are indeed blinded and unregenerate , as they are trusting in an object outside of the blood for said salvation.

    We have the negotiable doctrines and the non-negotiable doctrines. I'm speaking of the non-negotiable.
    That's true. But in common practice I've run into people who have claimed I'm not saved unless I'm out preaching the gospel in the streets, if I'm wearing "worldly" clothing, or happen to be listening to secular music for the moment. This happens with Baptist and Pentecostal Christians, and not just in "cults."

    So those who hold to the orthodox gospel are susceptible to the same kind of judgmentalism. My warning here is to avoid lapsing into a kind of judgmentalism that paints an entire group as "satanic" simply because they belong to a denomination with cultic elements.

    There is a profound difference between Oneness Pentecostals and Mormonism, for example. Mormonism claims to have the gospel, and uses the Scriptures, and yet does not actually believe in the orthodox construction of our theology. They put their own spin on it.

    On the other hand, Oneness Pentecostalism actually adheres to orthodoxy on the matter of Christ's shed blood. Their "satanic" theology should not be confused with the Mormons' "satanic" theology.

    Therefore, I would avoid calling a Christian denomination with orthodox beliefs "satanic" at all. It may be true in essence that the theology and structure is satanic. But if you hope to win some of these people out of their "cult," I don't think it wise to refer to them as a whole as "satanic." If they are saved by the blood of Jesus, and you call them "satanic," they will feel you are evil. Where does it end?

    Identify their theology as corrupt, but don't deny they are "saved." That's how I deal with it.

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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, I'm talking about "faith" for salvation--not just belief in God, or faith in the Denomination as such. There is real faith for salvation in that denomination, as I understand it.

    Egotism gets into certain Christian groups, and they become a "cult." I agree with you on that.

    But often people grow up in that tradition, have faith, and have nothing to do with the egotistic structure designed to judge. When we brand whole denominations "satanic," we cut off all communication, in my view.

    It's not that there isn't satanic elements to the theology. It's just that some of the people may not be satanic in demeanor, holding to theology they were raised up in. I'm not sure it helps them to describe their views "truthfully," as you say, when the word "satanic" has a derogatory element to it as well?

    Well, then, how can we expose the egotism and evil in the theology? It would *not* be by referring to the whole denomination as evil. Rather, it would be by exposing the evil in the theology. That's my point.
    If something or someone distorts truths that are "faith unto salvation" related , then who else can we credit those things to except for the enemy ?

    In the mission field there are those who know partial truths... this is not what I'm speaking of and the bible is clear that it isn't a sin according to Acts 18 and Apollo's testimony after being shown a more excellent way from Priscilla and Aquila. I'm speaking of the one's who have heard the true Gospel and yet refuse to accept it by adding more to it , or taking away from it.

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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    If something or someone distorts truths that are "faith unto salvation" related , then who else can we credit those things to except for the enemy ?

    In the mission field there are those who know partial truths... this is not what I'm speaking of and the bible is clear that it isn't a sin according to Acts 18 and Apollo's testimony after being shown a more excellent way from Priscilla and Aquila. I'm speaking of the one's who have heard the true Gospel and yet refuse to accept it by adding more to it , or taking away from it.
    There's mixtures of various kinds. For example, in the above example I mention Mormons, who do *not* have a genuine salvation experience, and yet mix the Christian Scriptures with their own Scriptures.

    There are also saved Christians, who mix errors with the righteousness of Christ within them. This is fact, brother. We all have the sin nature within us, and we tend to pick up false beliefs. I've spent my life trying to get my mind straight on a truth that maintains a true orthodox position. In essence that means we make Christ Lord over everything in our lives.

    Certain groups have turned to cultism, out of egotism. They've separated themselves from other denominations to make themselves appear to be more important. They want to be "God's Move in our time."

    Christians do this too--all the time! I see it right here on this forum. In the Endtimes section brothers and sisters want to have THE last word on what the Scriptures mean. Egotism enters into all of us. It takes a lifetime to work through it, and to discard these evil things that attach themselves to us.

    But there is a profound difference between those who are really saved, and those who have a completely false gospel, with no real salvation experience. I would not mix these, and confuse the differences.

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