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Thread: These signs shall follow them that believe

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    These signs shall follow them that believe

    I was recently in a discussion with a Pentecostal who cited the following verses below in an effort to teach that ONLY those who believe and are baptized will be saved, along with these signs mentioned below MUST follow or else you have not been saved. He calls that the gospel. He especially heavily focuses on tongues and believes that everyone who has not spoken in tongues have not received the Holy Spirit and are not saved. Just how wide spread is that ludicrous doctrine within Pentecostal circles?

    Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and
    preach the gospel to every creature.
    16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
    17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
    18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

    19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
    20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    [FONT="]I was recently in a discussion with a Pentecostal who cited the following verses below in an effort to teach that ONLY those who believe and are baptized will be saved, along with these signs mentioned below MUST follow or else you have not been saved. He calls that the gospel. He especially heavily focuses on tongues and believes that everyone who has not spoken in tongues have not received the Holy Spirit and are not saved. Just how wide spread is that ludicrous doctrine within Pentecostal circles?

    Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and [/FONT]
    [FONT="]preach the gospel[/FONT][FONT="] to every creature.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]17 [/FONT][FONT="]And these signs shall follow them that believe;[/FONT][FONT="] In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;[/FONT]
    [FONT="]18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.[/FONT]

    [FONT="]19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, [/FONT]and confirming the word with signs following.
    For the first four years after I was converted, I was in Pentecostal circles and was also burdened with this doctrine. So I am familiar first hand with it. The results I saw then, and in the following years, was (i) terrible bondage, (ii) a falling away of many new and baby Christians, (iii) divisions among brethren, and (iv) LIES as Christian simulated these works.

    The whole question hangs on the word "following".
    1. In verse 17 the Greek for "follow" is, "para-koloutheo", which means; "to follow near, to attend as a result, to trace out, conform to, to fully know, to have or give understanding."
    2. In verse 20 the Greek is identical except that "para" is changed to "epi" at the beginning, giving; "epa-koloutheo", which means; "to accompany, ot, to follow (after)" (Strong's Greek & Hebrew Dictionary).

    "Para" basically means WITH, and "Epi" means "OUT OF". So the meaning of the verses is that;
    the gospel must be preached
    • those preaching the gospel will have "signs" that accompany them
    • the disciples preached and the "signs" accompanied them

    What it DOES NOT MEAN is that the signs will be accompanied by the gospel. A jet airliner courses through the sky at 40,000 feet. SOMETIMES, if the conditions are given, a white vapor trail can be seen FOLLOWING. When the disciples were given the commission to go out and preach the gospel we learn from Luke 24:47-49;

    47 "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
    48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
    49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high."


    That is, the POWER from "on high" is for the preaching "among ALL nations".

    The same in Acts 1:8;
    8 "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

    That is, the "SIGNS" that "follow" ARE NOT FOR THE CHURCH! They are for the HEATHEN. And the "SIGNS" are not a gospel work, but they are occasional "ACCOMPANIMENTS" to the preaching of the gospel. They are NOT THE RULE. They are "accompaniments" like the white contrail of the jet. Is it always there? No! Are the hot gasses that contain moisture always there? YES! But the situation must WARRANT it. Thus, we can say that these signs are a natural but occasional occurrence when the gospel is preached AND THAT AS "SIGN" THEY ARE FOR THE HEATHEN (for it is an unfaithful and adulterous generation that SEEKS a sign).

    Now we turn to the Church meeting, where supernatural GIFTS are given to build it. And we can safely take TONGUES as a prime example of what I said above. The back ground of tongues will help understand the verses I am about to present. At Babel, God confounded the tongues of men to stop their unity. It was VERY EFFECTIVE, and anybody who has traveled, or who lives in Central Europe, like I do, knows how diverse tongues DIVIDE people. The French don't like the Germans, and when a German stops working long enough to consider a Frenchman, his thoughts are not fll of affection. In acual fact, the French don't like the French-speaking Swiss, never mind their thoughts towards a Quebecois. The French regard their Canadian French as barbaric.

    To over come this problem, the world leading powers caused official publications to be published in ONE OFFICIAL language. At the time of Daniel it was Chaldean or Aramaic, and at the time of our Lord Jesus it was Greek. Then, when Rome usurped Christianity the language of the whole world's Catholics became Latin. And Islam only recognizes the Quran in Arabic to avoid what they call "corruptions". But God is above this. When God is present in a Church in Corinth - a very important trading city - and a Coptic Egyptian came to the meeting to be nourished and built up, he would go home empty because the language of the meeting was Greek. So God, if He wanted to speak to this Egyptian, would give a Coptic tongue to one or more of the Corinthian saints to say in that man's language. But so that the whole Church would profit, God would give a gift of translation to another saint. These utterances were restricted to;
    1. Maximum three per meeting (1st Cr.14:26)
    2. Only if there was a translator with this gift present (1st Cor.14:27)

    The question THEN (when 1st Corinthians was written), and NOW on this Forum is, "well, we all speak with tongues so why shouldn't we utter what we feel like. Notice I say; "WHAT WE FEEL LIKE" because the Holy Spirit NEVER FORCES a Christian. In 1st Corinthians 14:32 we learn; "And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets." So, the Holy Spirit tells us TWO THINGS:
    1. The first is that speaking in tongues is restricted to three utterances. After that the Church is DISORDERLY
    2. The second is that if many saints, or the whole Church, talk in tongues, IT IS A SIGN TO THE HEATHEN that the Church is chaotic and disobedient.

    Let us examine 1st Corinthians 14:21-23;

    21 "In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
    22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
    23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?"


    Verse 21 is a quote from Deuteronomy 28:49. "The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;" And the prophet Isaiah, in 28:11 says; "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people." Verse 12 goes on to say; "To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear." The same is said in Jeremiah 5:15. What does it mean? Israel were threatened in the Law that if they were lawless, breakers of the Covenant and terrible sinners, that they would be scattered among a people who "babbled" another language - meaning of course the Assyrian and the Babylonian. Thus, a "babble" of an unknown tongue WAS A SIGN THAT GOD'S PEOPLE WERE IN A LOW STATE! And the situation at Corinth was no better. It was a Church full of problems of the flesh, and one of them was that in te meetings, all those with the gift of tobgues exercised it causing a great BABBLING NOISE but with no-one becoming the wiser! AND THIS WAS A "SIGN" TO THE UNBELIEVER OF A VERY LOW SPIRITUAL CONDITION OF THAT CHURCH. The result is then true. These Christians ARE MAD!

    And so it is in the Pentecostal Churches today. Christians they are. Some have the gifts. Many simulate the gift of tongues and the whole Assembly BABBLES! It causes:
    • The heathen to think that they are mad
    • The heathen NOT to be converted
    • A proof that that assembly is in a very low spiritual condition
    • A proof that God is very displeased like He was with Israel
    • A proof that the Church are REBELS

    This devastating doctrine that ALL must have these gifts, and that "signs" must be evident on a daily basis, causes:
    • Saints to drift away from the Church
    • Honest saints to leave the Assembly
    • Honest saints to LIE as they SIMULATE these gifts
    • Honest saint to LIE as they report miracles that did not really happen
    • All saints to overthrown God's Word
    • Dishonor on the Church

    1st Corinthians 12:8-11, 30;

    8 "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
    9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
    10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
    11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
    ...
    30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?"

  3. #3
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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Originally Posted by mailmandan
    [FONT="]I was recently in a discussion with a Pentecostal who cited the following verses below in an effort to teach that ONLY those who believe and are baptized will be saved, along with these signs mentioned below MUST follow or else you have not been saved. He calls that the gospel. He especially heavily focuses on tongues and believes that everyone who has not spoken in tongues have not received the Holy Spirit and are not saved. Just how wide spread is that ludicrous doctrine within Pentecostal circles?

    Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and [/FONT]
    [FONT="]preach the gospel[/FONT][FONT="] to every creature.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]17 [/FONT][FONT="]And these signs shall follow them that believe;[/FONT][FONT="] In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;[/FONT]
    [FONT="]18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.[/FONT]

    [FONT="]19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.[/FONT]
    20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.
    There are ditches along the side of the road. Usually one ditch is, NO signs for the Body today and the other ditch, usually holds this belief, along with many others (in either ditch).

    Here is how I begin to approach this for those willing to learn and mature. "Fruit of the Holy Spirit" of Gal 5, is fruit from a person that can be discerned as from the Holy Spirit and thus, reveals a person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. That He (the Holy Spirit) is working in the person and resulting in "change" and renewing = becoming Christ-like. When such fruit reveals that the Holy Spirit is working in a person but this person has never done or experienced any of the signs/wonders listed in isolated scriptures... does one "discern" that the person is NOT saved? To do so... is to be discerning though "interpretation" of scripture, not discerning BY or with the scriptures.

    Case in point. The thief on the cross got saved the moment he believed "in/unto" Christ. Verification of this is discerned BY the scriptures, when Jesus confirmed where the thief will be after his punishment. The thief was never baptized, no sign/wonder ever followed the thief But he was saved because as the song I sung as a child reveals, "because the Bible tells me so."

    It is unfortunate that this is a black eye as this false theology seems associated with Pentecostalism

    I also use this approach as well... (kinda a scenario example), A Christian that holds to this theology is evangelizing to a person and this person accepts Christ as their personal Lord/Savior. DOES the Holy Spirit hold off sealing/redeeming that person because He (the Holy Spirit) has to wait for ANOTHER person (maybe the evangelist) to baptize the believer?

    If someone is under great indoctrinate bondage, then they may answer that question by saying, "YES, the Holy Spirit will "wait" for the new believer to be baptized by submersion under water. Pray for them, because such bondage is tough to deal with in helping in the correction needed to show them how such a theology is false.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    [FONT="]I was recently in a discussion with a Pentecostal who cited the following verses below in an effort to teach that ONLY those who believe and are baptized will be saved, along with these signs mentioned below MUST follow or else you have not been saved. He calls that the gospel. He especially heavily focuses on tongues and believes that everyone who has not spoken in tongues have not received the Holy Spirit and are not saved. Just how wide spread is that ludicrous doctrine within Pentecostal circles?

    Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and [/FONT]
    [FONT="]preach the gospel[/FONT][FONT="] to every creature.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]17 [/FONT][FONT="]And these signs shall follow them that believe;[/FONT][FONT="] In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;[/FONT]
    [FONT="]18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.[/FONT]

    [FONT="]19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, [/FONT]and confirming the word with signs following.

    I am a member of a pentacostal church the Church of God , Cleveland , TN . In my many years I or my wife have not heard it spoken that you must have the signs following to be saved . Or you must speak in tongues or you are not saved . So in my circle things are as they should be .

    When a message in tongues is given in the church services I have attended it is in an orderly fashion with an interpretation following nearly all the time .


    I have never given a message in tongues out in a church service but I do pray in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance .

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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Thank you Walls and Slug1. Now I'm not one who paints the entire Pentecostal movement with a broad brush. I've met wonderful Pentecostals who love the Lord, have a balanced view of scripture and do not abuse spiritual gifts or pervert the gospel, in spite of certain people within Pentecostal circles who have a false theology, abuse spiritual gifts and pervert the gospel. It's really tough to reach such people because they seem to hold the church they are attending and its leadership in such high esteem. It would be really devastating to their pride to admit they are wrong then face rejection from their congregation.
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Thank you Walls and Slug1. Now I'm not one who paints the entire Pentecostal movement with a broad brush. I've met wonderful Pentecostals who love the Lord, have a balanced view of scripture and do not abuse spiritual gifts or pervert the gospel, in spite of certain people within Pentecostal circles who have a false theology, abuse spiritual gifts and pervert the gospel. It's really tough to reach such people because they seem to hold the church they are attending and its leadership in such high esteem. It would be really devastating to their pride to admit they are wrong then face rejection from their congregation.
    The Lord is vitally interested in His people. If pride is in the way, the Lord will deal with this. If a false loyalty is in the way, He will let the saint see his leadership with new eyes one day. If it is wrong doctrine the saint will see the fruit after some time. For me it took four years and then I realized that despite lovely saints, I was spiritually bankrupt. These lessons seem, to us who only live 70 years, a waste of time. But they are invaluable experiential lessons. I despise no-one, but that lesson stuck. Then came other lessons, some which are still in the learning phase.

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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by hawkman View Post
    I am a member of a pentacostal church the Church of God , Cleveland , TN . In my many years I or my wife have not heard it spoken that you must have the signs following to be saved . Or you must speak in tongues or you are not saved . So in my circle things are as they should be .

    When a message in tongues is given in the church services I have attended it is in an orderly fashion with an interpretation following nearly all the time .

    I have never given a message in tongues out in a church service but I do pray in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance .
    Glad to hear it! Thank you for sharing.
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Thank you Walls and Slug1. Now I'm not one who paints the entire Pentecostal movement with a broad brush. I've met wonderful Pentecostals who love the Lord, have a balanced view of scripture and do not abuse spiritual gifts or pervert the gospel, in spite of certain people within Pentecostal circles who have a false theology, abuse spiritual gifts and pervert the gospel. It's really tough to reach such people because they seem to hold the church they are attending and its leadership in such high esteem. It would be really devastating to their pride to admit they are wrong then face rejection from their congregation.
    For a long time the Lord has had me serve Him in a Pentecostal church. Same CoG organization out of Cleveland, TN that Hawkman is a member of. However, that season is over and God has moved my wife and I to a church that is under a Baptist organization. Baptist... just want to drive that point home a little.

    While serving in CoG for 12 years, several prophets, some I don't know but met because they were attending a conference, or I attended a service in some other CoG church within the state I live... have prophesied over me. There was always a common denominator that a skeptic (of prophecy today) would say is evidence that all these different Christians were generalizing. But in my spirit, I discerned the Holy Spirit speaking something very specific to me in various ways. Be it the, God has shown me a vision and the vision relayed to me, or "The Lord says" or speaking in tongues and interpretation was given of the tongues that was uttered. God spoke in various ways into my life through these many prophets.

    The church I have been led to is going through transition (a testimony all it's own) and the day that the new pastor attended a service (this was the 7th Sunday of attending that church), I didn't even know it was the new pastor with his wife, sitting next to me and my wife. The retiring pastor was preaching and at the end of the sermon, the pastor was led to lead the congregation to pray for each other. So, this woman sitting next to my wife begins to pray for the two of us. During the praying, she begins to pray in tongues. Then, she interprets (1 Cor 14:5) and the Lord speaks THE SAME as He's spoken in the past to me and my wife.

    God is good. He is continuing to edify me/us through the sign gifts and NO, not in some Pentecostal church and NO, not through some Christian who would bear the label "Charismatic." This was the new "Baptist" pastor's wife, I never met her, she never met me and yet the Holy Spirit is empowering her to speak prophetically and YES, it was the same edification strangers have spoken over me in the past. God REassuring me, I am being obedient in transitioning out of a church I attended while serving Him for 12 years under the Pentecostalism label... to a church that is "Baptist."

    I've known pastors who were Baptists, pastored Baptist churches and when they allowed the Holy Spirit freedom and they spoke in tongues... got fired. God is moving in mighty ways and many more in the Body are busting out of boxes.

    The enemy however, is doing all he can to KEEP Christians in boxes and your topic here is just one of the many "wiles," he utilizes to keep the Body in bondage.

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Thank you Walls and Slug1. Now I'm not one who paints the entire Pentecostal movement with a broad brush. I've met wonderful Pentecostals who love the Lord, have a balanced view of scripture and do not abuse spiritual gifts or pervert the gospel, in spite of certain people within Pentecostal circles who have a false theology, abuse spiritual gifts and pervert the gospel. It's really tough to reach such people because they seem to hold the church they are attending and its leadership in such high esteem. It would be really devastating to their pride to admit they are wrong then face rejection from their congregation.
    For a long time the Lord has had me serve Him in a Pentecostal church. Same CoG organization out of Cleveland, TN that Hawkman is a member of. However, that season is over and God has moved my wife and I to a church that is under a Baptist organization. Baptist... just want to drive that point home a little.

    While serving in CoG for 12 years, several prophets, some I don't know but met because they were attending a conference, or I attended a service in some other CoG church within the state I live... have prophesied over me. There was always a common denominator that a skeptic (of prophecy today) would say is evidence that all these different Christians were generalizing. But in my spirit, I discerned the Holy Spirit speaking something very specific to me in various ways. Be it the, God has shown me a vision and the vision relayed to me, or "The Lord says" or speaking in tongues and interpretation was given of the tongues that was uttered. God spoke in various ways into my life through these many prophets.

    The church I have been led to is going through transition (a testimony all it's own) and the day that the new pastor attended a service (this was the 7th Sunday of attending that church), I didn't even know it was the new pastor with his wife, sitting next to me and my wife. The retiring pastor was preaching and at the end of the sermon, the pastor was led to lead the congregation to pray for each other. So, this woman sitting next to my wife begins to pray for the two of us. During the praying, she begins to pray in tongues. Then, she interprets (1 Cor 14:5) and the Lord speaks THE SAME as He's spoken in the past to me and my wife.

    God is good. He is continuing to edify me/us through the sign gifts and NO, not in some Pentecostal church and NO, not through some Christian who would bear the label "Charismatic." This was the new "Baptist" pastor's wife, I never met her, she never met me and yet the Holy Spirit is empowering her to speak prophetically and YES, it was the same edification strangers have spoken over me in the past. God REassuring me, I am being obedient in transitioning out of a church I attended while serving Him for 12 years under the Pentecostalism label... to a church that is "Baptist."

    I've known pastors who were Baptists, pastored Baptist churches and when they allowed the Holy Spirit freedom and they spoke in tongues... got fired. God is moving in mighty ways and many more in the Body are busting out of boxes.

    The enemy however, is doing all he can to KEEP Christians in boxes and your topic here is just one of the many "wiles," he utilizes to keep the Body in bondage.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  9. #9

    Cool Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by hawkman View Post
    I am a member of a pentacostal church the Church of God , Cleveland , TN . In my many years I or my wife have not heard it spoken that you must have the signs following to be saved . Or you must speak in tongues or you are not saved . So in my circle things are as they should be .

    When a message in tongues is given in the church services I have attended it is in an orderly fashion with an interpretation following nearly all the time .


    I have never given a message in tongues out in a church service but I do pray in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance .
    I share the exact sentiments toward tongues as hawkman here. I also don't think you must have the signs spoken of to be saved. I have witnessed prophetic tongues myself but never have participated in such. My prayer tongues are different.

    Sometimes I get little hints about what I am praying for while in tongues. Oral Roberts always insisted you can discern all of your prayer tongues. I don't find that the case. In fact; God told me I don't need, nor should I want, to know everything. I may be praying for a future tragedy, I will go through, and if I knew beforehand I would surely worry about it.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  10. #10

    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    [FONT="]I was recently in a discussion with a Pentecostal who cited the following verses below in an effort to teach that ONLY those who believe and are baptized will be saved, along with these signs mentioned below MUST follow or else you have not been saved. He calls that the gospel. He especially heavily focuses on tongues and believes that everyone who has not spoken in tongues have not received the Holy Spirit and are not saved. Just how wide spread is that ludicrous doctrine within Pentecostal circles?

    Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and [/FONT]
    [FONT="]preach the gospel[/FONT][FONT="] to every creature.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]17 [/FONT][FONT="]And these signs shall follow them that believe;[/FONT][FONT="] In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;[/FONT]
    [FONT="]18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.[/FONT]

    [FONT="]19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, [/FONT][FONT="]and confirming the word with signs following. [/FONT]

    the gifts of the spirit are given in different measure , to different " members of the same body , for the good of the whole remember. SOME receive the gift of tongues , others the gift of prophecy...ect from the esteemed purposes to even serving , giving of abundance of possession both also are named as spiritual gifts.

    “Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

    But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.


    For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.

    But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

    But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:”
    **1 Corinthians‬ *12:4-14, 18, 20-22‬ *KJV‬‬

    if you read what Paul is " saying " here he's explaining one person may receive the gift of tounge S, another may be called to be a pastor or teacher , another may receive the gift of prophecy and wisdom , to another the word of knowledge, another discernment ....the idea is , unity and a rebuke of envy among the church . The Inge we consider to be of low standing and importance , the organizers of chirch functions the people who aren't at a pulpit being clapped for....those are highly esteemed in Gods eyes .


    no one must speak tongues , but some will we should not scoff. We simply are meant to be fruitful in the gifts given to us , not selfishly as we often do , but to use it for the Benicia of the body of Christ just as well... the " many members of one body" spiritual gifts and miracle working , signs and wonders all gifts given to those chosen by God, not all will work miracles , heal, have faith to move mountains .....we have those things individually , it's designed that we come together and we need each other for more complete fulfillment and growth ....

    the chirch needs the one with prophecy, the word of knowledge, we need the ones with great faith , we need the generous givers, we need the compassionate and helpful, ect...the great teachers , the leaders....but without the ones who aren't noticed the serbpvants and meek among us doing the work that doesn't get recognized, those great gifts cannot function properly.

    without a healer , no healing would have ever happened...without a prophet we would have been left in the dark rather than having the New Testament explained....the church needs the church , need to open our hearts to one another and accept the design of God is for us to exist in harmony....

    in order that the entire chirch of believers profit from one another , and become unified , recognizing the different purposes and uses for the gifts of the spirit ....many gifts of this kind are named in the epistles ...

    as far as who is saved , who belongs tomjesus brother....it's not up to us , it all rests on what the eternal judge and savior of mankind says about salvation, he is the one giving eternal life ...it comes by his word, by the path set before us by the gospel . It's not our role to determine which believer is saved , or what thier relationship with God is we are meant to be at work on our own salvation and praying for others forgiveness. Hoping they will repent if they are off the path of life ...


    “But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”
    **Romans‬ *14:10-12‬ *KJV‬‬

    “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
    **2 Corinthians‬ *5:10-11‬ *KJV‬‬

    the only one who gets to determine who is saved , is Jesus and he's told us the way in his gospel. Goven is hope of eternity through his word.
    h

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    [FONT="]I was recently in a discussion with a Pentecostal who cited the following verses below in an effort to teach that ONLY those who believe and are baptized will be saved, along with these signs mentioned below MUST follow or else you have not been saved. He calls that the gospel. He especially heavily focuses on tongues and believes that everyone who has not spoken in tongues have not received the Holy Spirit and are not saved. Just how wide spread is that ludicrous doctrine within Pentecostal circles?

    Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and [/FONT]
    [FONT="]preach the gospel[/FONT][FONT="] to every creature.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]17 [/FONT][FONT="]And these signs shall follow them that believe;[/FONT][FONT="] In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;[/FONT]
    [FONT="]18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.[/FONT]

    [FONT="]19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.[/FONT]
    [FONT="]20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, [/FONT][FONT="]and confirming the word with signs following. [/FONT]

    the gifts of the spirit are given in different measure , to different " members of the same body , for the good of the whole remember. SOME receive the gift of tongues , others the gift of prophecy...ect from the esteemed purposes to even serving , giving of abundance of possession both also are named as spiritual gifts.

    “Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

    But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.


    For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.

    But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

    But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:”
    **1 Corinthians‬ *12:4-14, 18, 20-22‬ *KJV‬‬

    if you read what Paul is " saying " here he's explaining one person may receive the gift of tounge S, another may be called to be a pastor or teacher , another may receive the gift of prophecy and wisdom , to another the word of knowledge, another discernment ....the idea is , unity and a rebuke of envy among the church . The Inge we consider to be of low standing and importance , the organizers of chirch functions the people who aren't at a pulpit being clapped for....those are highly esteemed in Gods eyes .


    no one must speak tongues , but some will we should not scoff. We simply are meant to be fruitful in the gifts given to us , not selfishly as we often do , but to use it for the Benicia of the body of Christ just as well... the " many members of one body" spiritual gifts and miracle working , signs and wonders all gifts given to those chosen by God, not all will work miracles , heal, have faith to move mountains .....we have those things individually , it's designed that we come together and we need each other for more complete fulfillment and growth ....

    the chirch needs the one with prophecy, the word of knowledge, we need the ones with great faith , we need the generous givers, we need the compassionate and helpful, ect...the great teachers , the leaders....but without the ones who aren't noticed the serbpvants and meek among us doing the work that doesn't get recognized, those great gifts cannot function properly.

    without a healer , no healing would have ever happened...without a prophet we would have been left in the dark rather than having the New Testament explained....the church needs the church , need to open our hearts to one another and accept the design of God is for us to exist in harmony....

    in order that the entire chirch of believers profit from one another , and become unified , recognizing the different purposes and uses for the gifts of the spirit ....many gifts of this kind are named in the epistles ...

    as far as who is saved , who belongs tomjesus brother....it's not up to us , it all rests on what the eternal judge and savior of mankind says about salvation, he is the one giving eternal life ...it comes by his word, by the path set before us by the gospel . It's not our role to determine which believer is saved , or what thier relationship with God is we are meant to be at work on our own salvation and praying for others forgiveness. Hoping they will repent if they are off the path of life ...


    “But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”
    **Romans‬ *14:10-12‬ *KJV‬‬

    “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
    **2 Corinthians‬ *5:10-11‬ *KJV‬‬

    the only one who gets to determine who is saved , is Jesus and he's told us the way in his gospel. Goven is hope of eternity through his word.
    h

  11. #11
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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post

    For a long time the Lord has had me serve Him in a Pentecostal church. Same CoG organization out of Cleveland, TN that Hawkman is a member of. However, that season is over and God has moved my wife and I to a church that is under a Baptist organization. Baptist... just want to drive that point home a little.

    While serving in CoG for 12 years, several prophets, some I don't know but met because they were attending a conference, or I attended a service in some other CoG church within the state I live... have prophesied over me. There was always a common denominator that a skeptic (of prophecy today) would say is evidence that all these different Christians were generalizing. But in my spirit, I discerned the Holy Spirit speaking something very specific to me in various ways. Be it the, God has shown me a vision and the vision relayed to me, or "The Lord says" or speaking in tongues and interpretation was given of the tongues that was uttered. God spoke in various ways into my life through these many prophets.

    The church I have been led to is going through transition (a testimony all it's own) and the day that the new pastor attended a service (this was the 7th Sunday of attending that church), I didn't even know it was the new pastor with his wife, sitting next to me and my wife. The retiring pastor was preaching and at the end of the sermon, the pastor was led to lead the congregation to pray for each other. So, this woman sitting next to my wife begins to pray for the two of us. During the praying, she begins to pray in tongues. Then, she interprets (1 Cor 14:5) and the Lord speaks THE SAME as He's spoken in the past to me and my wife.

    God is good. He is continuing to edify me/us through the sign gifts and NO, not in some Pentecostal church and NO, not through some Christian who would bear the label "Charismatic." This was the new "Baptist" pastor's wife, I never met her, she never met me and yet the Holy Spirit is empowering her to speak prophetically and YES, it was the same edification strangers have spoken over me in the past. God REassuring me, I am being obedient in transitioning out of a church I attended while serving Him for 12 years under the Pentecostalism label... to a church that is "Baptist."

    I've known pastors who were Baptists, pastored Baptist churches and when they allowed the Holy Spirit freedom and they spoke in tongues... got fired. God is moving in mighty ways and many more in the Body are busting out of boxes.

    The enemy however, is doing all he can to KEEP Christians in boxes and your topic here is just one of the many "wiles," he utilizes to keep the Body in bondage.
    This is great to hear Slug. The Lord must want to use you at another church. I have always enjoyed reading your testimonies and how the Lord will use you for a word of knowledge and to pray for the sick. You will be a wonderful addition to this church. I believe God uses these words not just for you but also for the one giving the prophecy as it is telling them who is in their midst. May God Bless you as you continue to help others grow in their faith and love of the Lord. Thank you for being obedient to your calling, may the Lord bless other churches with people like you, with a love and knowledge of the Lord.

    I pray God opens doors for you to serve in this church and that the pastor and wife are led of the Lord in who they put in charge of things.

  12. #12
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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    For a long time the Lord has had me serve Him in a Pentecostal church. Same CoG organization out of Cleveland, TN that Hawkman is a member of. However, that season is over and God has moved my wife and I to a church that is under a Baptist organization. Baptist... just want to drive that point home a little.

    While serving in CoG for 12 years, several prophets, some I don't know but met because they were attending a conference, or I attended a service in some other CoG church within the state I live... have prophesied over me. There was always a common denominator that a skeptic (of prophecy today) would say is evidence that all these different Christians were generalizing. But in my spirit, I discerned the Holy Spirit speaking something very specific to me in various ways. Be it the, God has shown me a vision and the vision relayed to me, or "The Lord says" or speaking in tongues and interpretation was given of the tongues that was uttered. God spoke in various ways into my life through these many prophets.

    The church I have been led to is going through transition (a testimony all it's own) and the day that the new pastor attended a service (this was the 7th Sunday of attending that church), I didn't even know it was the new pastor with his wife, sitting next to me and my wife. The retiring pastor was preaching and at the end of the sermon, the pastor was led to lead the congregation to pray for each other. So, this woman sitting next to my wife begins to pray for the two of us. During the praying, she begins to pray in tongues. Then, she interprets (1 Cor 14:5) and the Lord speaks THE SAME as He's spoken in the past to me and my wife.

    God is good. He is continuing to edify me/us through the sign gifts and NO, not in some Pentecostal church and NO, not through some Christian who would bear the label "Charismatic." This was the new "Baptist" pastor's wife, I never met her, she never met me and yet the Holy Spirit is empowering her to speak prophetically and YES, it was the same edification strangers have spoken over me in the past. God REassuring me, I am being obedient in transitioning out of a church I attended while serving Him for 12 years under the Pentecostalism label... to a church that is "Baptist."

    I've known pastors who were Baptists, pastored Baptist churches and when they allowed the Holy Spirit freedom and they spoke in tongues... got fired. God is moving in mighty ways and many more in the Body are busting out of boxes.

    The enemy however, is doing all he can to KEEP Christians in boxes and your topic here is just one of the many "wiles," he utilizes to keep the Body in bondage.
    Great testimony brother! Thank you for sharing. In regards to spiritual gifts, it would appear that the enemy is out to keep Christians in boxes by leading them to believe that spiritual gifts have been done away with altogether (are no longer valid) and the enemy also keeps people from coming to salvation through faith in Christ by abusing spiritual gifts in such a way that results in perverting the gospel, as we have seen within certain Pentecostal circles. I've had discussions with Oneness Pentecostals who claim that you MUST be baptized "in Jesus name only" in order to be saved and if you were baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, you received an invalid baptism and won't be saved. They also claim that if you have not spoken in tongues that you won't be saved. God is certainly moving in mighty ways, yet the enemy is always on the move trying to distort the plans of God and keep Christians in boxes along with keeping others from becoming Christians.
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

  13. #13
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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    I share the exact sentiments toward tongues as hawkman here. I also don't think you must have the signs spoken of to be saved. I have witnessed prophetic tongues myself but never have participated in such. My prayer tongues are different.

    Sometimes I get little hints about what I am praying for while in tongues. Oral Roberts always insisted you can discern all of your prayer tongues. I don't find that the case. In fact; God told me I don't need, nor should I want, to know everything. I may be praying for a future tragedy, I will go through, and if I knew beforehand I would surely worry about it.
    I've spoken with or read in these many threads over the years, many who do not believe the gifts listed in 1 Cor 12 are for the Body of Christ today. One of the difficulties is always about the continued lesson Paul gives us in 1 Cor 14 about how when tongues is uttered and there is no interpretation given by the power of the Holy Spirit, ONLY the person speaking in tongues, is edified. The problem is HOW can a person be edified when they don't understand the words that are uttered

    Your post is a GREAT example of what edification means concerning speaking/praying in tongues, where ONLY the one uttering, is edified. As you posted, the Holy Spirit can literally be praying about an event on the other side of the world (even hasn't happened yet) and in the obedience of ALLOWING the Holy Spirit to utter the words, would bring great spiritual edification to the one in obedience.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  14. #14
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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    I was recently in a discussion with a Pentecostal who cited the following verses below in an effort to teach that ONLY those who believe and are baptized will be saved, along with these signs mentioned below MUST follow or else you have not been saved. He calls that the gospel. He especially heavily focuses on tongues and believes that everyone who has not spoken in tongues have not received the Holy Spirit and are not saved. Just how wide spread is that ludicrous doctrine within Pentecostal circles?

    Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and
    preach the gospel to every creature.
    16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
    17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
    18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

    19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
    20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.
    Returning to your OP, I think that a short explanation is in order. The Holy Spirit is given to the obedient Christian TWICE - once inwardly at rebirth and then outwardly after he/she is Baptized in water. The above doctrine that has hold in Pentecostal circles is because they make the giving of the Holy Spirit once, and then instead of taking Matthew 7:16-20 as the proof that a man is reborn, they take the gifts of the Holy Spirit in action as proof - a proof that was never given to mark a Christian's rebirth, but to mark his ministry.

    In Eden, the fruit of the Tree of Life is offered. If Adam had eaten of the fruit, he would have become organically one with the fruit. That is, the virtues and character of the fruit would have permeated him from the INSIDE. God's plan behind this was that a man - mere human - even a perfect one like Adam was before the fall, CANNOT be in the image and likeness of God if he does not possess the nature of God. This is best illustrated by Eve. After parading all the fabulous animals in front of Adam, no "help meet" was found for him. "Help" means "companion" and "meet" means, "up to the standard of". For a man or woman to in the image and likeness of God, and for the man to be "up to the standard" to be Christ's Bride, he must proceeds out of Christ. He must possess the intrinsic nature of Christ. This is imparted at REBIRTH. 2 Peter 1:3-4 says; "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, ... Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, ... .". So, in John 20:22, when sins had been put away, and Christ had presented both His blood and Himself as the Firstfruits to God in heaven, return to His disciples and they take Him into their mouths as the Holy Spirit of John 7:39.

    But man has other duties than being in the image and likeness of God, and being the bride of Christ. He is commanded to "subdue" and to "rule" the earth, sea and sky with all that is in them. And on top of that, God has a Garden He wants as a Holy Place to have fellowship with man. And this Garden has a serpent in it because it had no fence or wall. Man has duties that do not require intrinsic LIFE, but they require POWER. The Serpent is an angel, and angels are created greater then men (Ps.8:5; Heb.2:7-9). The man given the job of dealing with the Serpent cannot rely on his power. It is not enough. He must be "ENDUED" with God's POWER. "Endued" means, "endow or provide with a quality or ability". So the Lord Jesus, after His resurrection, and AFTER He breathed the Holy Spirit into His disciples for DIVINE & ETERNAL LIFE, tells them in Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:8, to "... tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with POWER from on high." And this power was so that "... ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." Ten days after our Lord Jesus was raptured, making that 50 days after the disciples had received the Holy Spirit INWARDLY FOR LIFE, they were ENDUED with the Holy Spirit FOR POWER. Acts 2:4 says; "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." The word "filled" in the Greek here means "to furnish", or "to SUPPLY". A policeman is BORN to his mother and father. He has human LIFE. But this life, although virile and creative, cannot stop a car. But the the policeman "is FURNISHED" with a uniform - and all of a sudden a mere hand signal will stop a car.

    These TWO different "receivings" of the Holy Spirit are TWO DISTINCT operations of the same Holy Spirit.
    1. The receiving of the Holy Spirit for intrinsic LIFE and GOD'S NATURE is by FAITH (Jn.1:12-13, 3:15-16). It happens at REBIRTH
    2. The receiving of the Holy Spirit for POWER FOR MINISTRY is by OBEDIENCE to WATER BAPTISM (Act.2:38, 19:1-7)

    Our Lord Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit (Matt.1:18; Lk.1:35) but did not minister except for once when He was 12. Then He caused Himself to be Baptized with Water. And scripture tells us that after He was Baptized in Water, and had been tested, "... Jesus returned in the POWER of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about" (Lk.4:14)

    1. The proof of a BORN again man is his FRUIT (Matt.7:17-20) - the issue of the LIFE that is in him
    2. The proof of the POWER of the Holy Spirit is "signs" that "FOLLOW" (Mk.16:16-18) - the issue of being FURNISHED with the Holy Spirit ON HIM

  15. #15
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    Re: These signs shall follow them that believe

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Returning to your OP, I think that a short explanation is in order. The Holy Spirit is given to the obedient Christian TWICE - once inwardly at rebirth and then outwardly after he/she is Baptized in water. The above doctrine that has hold in Pentecostal circles is because they make the giving of the Holy Spirit once, and then instead of taking Matthew 7:16-20 as the proof that a man is reborn, they take the gifts of the Holy Spirit in action as proof - a proof that was never given to mark a Christian's rebirth, but to mark his ministry.
    I read your entire post, this part raised a thought.

    When Simon (Acts 8) "saw" what was happening when the visiting Apostles were laying on of hands and the Holy Spirit was given in power to the "baptized/redeemed" Christian... he coveted that power. The reason he coveted was due to the "intent" of his heart (Acts 8:19-24).

    This "intent" is fleshly (human spirit) but can also be inspired of the devil as well. We are warned of "doctrines of devils" (1 Tim 4) and this Pentecostal "Oneness" doctrine is such a devilish doctrine. Both satan and mankind, due to our unrighteousness since falling, crave (covet) power and this false theology is just one of the many products of man coveting of power.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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