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Thread: Types and shadows

  1. #1
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    Types and shadows

    There are always types and shadows of the end of the age. The timing for the judgment of Pharaah and his armies ("the beast" and his armies) is the same as the timing for the deliverance of God's people.









    (a) The New Testament only speaks of "tribulation" (or affliction or distress) in reference to the unbelieving world twice:

    “..since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you,”
    (2 Thessalonians 1:6); and

    “..tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man who has worked out evil; of the Jew first, and also of the Greek.”
    (Romans 2:9).

    All the other New Testament verses using the words distress, affliction, trouble, tribulation refer to the suffering brought upon the believers/saints due to their testimony to Jesus.

    (b) In the New Testament, God’s judgement of the world is referred to as "wrath" (not "tribulation").

    "Great Tribulation": a phrase used only three times

    Great tribulation (in the Greek it's megas thlipsis) is a term used twice by Jesus, and once by the angel who told John who the multitude were who he saw in heaven (revelation 7:14)

    Jesus used the phrase once during His "Olivet Discourse" (recorded in Matthew 24:21; Luke 21:23; and Mark 13:19); and once again in Revelation 2:22, as a warning to the church at Thyatira that if they did not repent, Jesus Himself would throw them into great tribulation.

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    Re: Types and shadows

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    (a) The New Testament only speaks of "tribulation" (or affliction or distress) in reference to the unbelieving world twice:

    “..since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you,”
    (2 Thessalonians 1:6); and

    “..tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man who has worked out evil; of the Jew first, and also of the Greek.”
    (Romans 2:9).

    All the other New Testament verses using the words distress, affliction, trouble, tribulation refer to the suffering brought upon the believers/saints due to their testimony to Jesus.
    I don't find that to be true. When Jesus gave his Olivet Discourse he did indeed apply "great tribulation" and "wrath" to the experience of the Jewish People throughout the NT age, up until the coming of his Kingdom. However, he applied it equally to believers among the Jewish People, who would have to suffer the identical national catastrophe as unbelievers.

    All Jews, unbelievers and believers alike, would have to suffer the loss of their nationhood, and suffer deportation away from their country. And such it is, as it has been, for all Jewish People in the present age, Jewish unbelievers and Jewish converts to Christianity alike.

    Rev 7.13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
    14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
    And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


    Here, "great tribulation" is applied to *believers,* and not just to unbelievers. Believers come out of a time of wrath that is directed towards unbelievers, and yet an experience believers must come "out of" as well.

    As you know, Christ did not deserve to come into this sinful world and to suffer abuses by sinful men. Neither do Christians deserve to suffer in the tribulational world, designed for sinners.

    But we go through this experience by the will of God, as a testimony to those who may be interested in the way out from under this judgment. We must suffer in the world until our testimony is complete. Tribulation does, therefore, apply to us.

  3. #3
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    Re: Types and shadows

    Luke 21:23 "But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people."

    The key word when it relates to the suffering of the Jews in AD70, is wrath . It's God's wrath which is to come upon the world as a result of their actions, and the tribulation they bring upon the Christians. The Israelites had endured much tribulation at the hand of Pharaoh, but Pharaoh's armies came under the wrath of God in the sea, and the timing for the salvation of God's people is the same as the timing for Pharaoh and his armies.

    It is through much tribulation that we will inherit the kingdom (Acts 14:22).

    Matthew 24;14 ""And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

    ""Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

    9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

    Matthew 24:

    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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    Re: Types and shadows

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    Luke 21:23 "But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people."

    The key word when it relates to the suffering of the Jews in AD70, is wrath . It's God's wrath which is to come upon the world as a result of their actions, and the tribulation they bring upon the Christians. The Israelites had endured much tribulation at the hand of Pharaoh, but Pharaoh's armies came under the wrath of God in the sea, and the timing for the salvation of God's people is the same as the timing for Pharaoh and his armies.

    It is through much tribulation that we will inherit the kingdom (Acts 14:22).

    Matthew 24;14 ""And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

    ""Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

    9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

    Matthew 24:

    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    Yes, I probably see the Olivet Discourse a little different from you--I don't know. Most people on this forum view the Great Tribulation of the Olivet Discourse as referring to the last 7 years, or 3.5 years, of this present age. I see it as the entire NT age, in which the Jews are displaced before finally coming back to their land and becoming a nation of God once again.

    That aside, I see "wrath" as specifically directed towards rebellious unbelievers, as you do. However, some of this, for me, is a matter of semantics. When we say that believers go through a "time of wrath," we are not saying that we are actually experiencing God's wrath. Rather, we are experiencing the effects of this wrath, which God has poured out towards unbelievers, or the wicked.

    As I said, God poured out, in a sense, His "wrath" upon Jesus on the cross. Jesus was not actually the object of God's wrath, but only experienced the impact that God's wrath upon sinners had upon him. In the same way, believers experience, in the present age, much that is actually designed as wrath towards unbelievers. We simply have to live here as a testimony to them.

    I hope you can understand and appreciate the differences in how we look at this. It's an argument not just over interpretation, but also over semantics.

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    Re: Types and shadows

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, I probably see the Olivet Discourse a little different from you--I don't know. Most people on this forum view the Great Tribulation of the Olivet Discourse as referring to the last 7 years, or 3.5 years, of this present age. I see it as the entire NT age, in which the Jews are displaced before finally coming back to their land and becoming a nation of God once again.

    That aside, I see "wrath" as specifically directed towards rebellious unbelievers, as you do. However, some of this, for me, is a matter of semantics. When we say that believers go through a "time of wrath," we are not saying that we are actually experiencing God's wrath. Rather, we are experiencing the effects of this wrath, which God has poured out towards unbelievers, or the wicked.

    As I said, God poured out, in a sense, His "wrath" upon Jesus on the cross. Jesus was not actually the object of God's wrath, but only experienced the impact that God's wrath upon sinners had upon him. In the same way, believers experience, in the present age, much that is actually designed as wrath towards unbelievers. We simply have to live here as a testimony to them.

    I hope you can understand and appreciate the differences in how we look at this. It's an argument not just over interpretation, but also over semantics.
    I understand I just get concerned for Christians (those who think) the beast will "make war with the saints and overcome them", Rev 13:7) but the saints will be raptured before that. It's going to be a world-wide demand to either worship the beast and its image, or be killed (and Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego will endure the burning, foery furnace). Their deliverance is out of it, not before it.

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    Re: Types and shadows

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    I understand I just get concerned for Christians (those who think) the beast will "make war with the saints and overcome them", Rev 13:7) but the saints will be raptured before that. It's going to be a world-wide demand to either worship the beast and its image, or be killed (and Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego will endure the burning, foery furnace). Their deliverance is out of it, not before it.
    Oh, I thought you were espousing Pretrib! If you're Postrib, I'm 100% on board with you!

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    Re: Types and shadows

    If you look at the origins of the word tribulation, it has to do with a tribulum (threshing board). Both the wheat and the straw are put under pressure, for the sake of separating it. The wheat should not be troubled about this process; it is the straw that gets put in the fire.

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    Re: Types and shadows

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    I understand I just get concerned for Christians (those who think) the beast will "make war with the saints and overcome them", Rev 13:7) but the saints will be raptured before that. It's going to be a world-wide demand to either worship the beast and its image, or be killed (and Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego will endure the burning, foery furnace). Their deliverance is out of it, not before it.
    Lol. If you view those images I posted it shows the type of the great tribulation. From what I see in my own studies of the Bible, the great tribulation which Christ said would take place immediately before His return, has noting to do with the wrath of God to come upon the world - it's he great tribulation of the saints at the hands of the beast and his armies, when the faithful remnant refuse to worship the beast and its image. It results in God's wrath when the beast is judged and the false prophet with it.

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    Re: Types and shadows

    Quote Originally Posted by Son of the South View Post
    If you look at the origins of the word tribulation, it has to do with a tribulum (threshing board). Both the wheat and the straw are put under pressure, for the sake of separating it. The wheat should not be troubled about this process; it is the straw that gets put in the fire.
    No. The origin for the words great tribulation in the Bible are the Greek words megas thlipsis
    Attachment 13769

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    Re: Types and shadows

    Quote Originally Posted by Son of the South View Post
    If you look at the origins of the word tribulation, it has to do with a tribulum (threshing board). Both the wheat and the straw are put under pressure, for the sake of separating it. The wheat should not be troubled about this process; it is the straw that gets put in the fire.
    Agreed good post

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    Re: Types and shadows

    Quote Originally Posted by Son of the South View Post
    If you look at the origins of the word tribulation, it has to do with a tribulum (threshing board). Both the wheat and the straw are put under pressure, for the sake of separating it. The wheat should not be troubled about this process; it is the straw that gets put in the fire.
    I love this! If true, it makes great sense!

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    Re: Types and shadows

    Quote Originally Posted by Son of the South View Post
    If you look at the origins of the word tribulation, it has to do with a tribulum (threshing board). Both the wheat and the straw are put under pressure, for the sake of separating it. The wheat should not be troubled about this process; it is the straw that gets put in the fire.
    Nice point! Yet for neither is the process soft or easy.

  13. #13

    Re: Types and shadows

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    I understand I just get concerned for Christians (those who think) the beast will "make war with the saints and overcome them", Rev 13:7) but the saints will be raptured before that. It's going to be a world-wide demand to either worship the beast and its image, or be killed (and Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego will endure the burning, foery furnace). Their deliverance is out of it, not before it.
    I don't believe "Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego" (in type) represent "the Church which is His body" (to/of whom "the Rapture" SOLELY pertains... not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints).

    There will indeed be "saints" (those having come to faith within the trib years, so called [i.e. the 70th-Wk/7-yrs leading up to His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom], which will exist on the earth FOLLOWING our Rapture)… I've mentioned in other threads, how I believe the [future] 144,000 are "firstfruit" of the WHEAT harvest, but "the Church which is His body" is not of the same harvest (meaning, at a distinct time frame)… It is the WHEAT that is harvested by means of a "tribulum" (as another poster mentioned), but another harvest (prior to the wheat harvest) is "harvested" by mean of "tossing up into the air and the wind blowing away the [chaff, or whatever (I forget the accurate word)]"... Leviticus 23 speaks of two distinct "firstfruit," and James says we are "A KIND" of firstfruit… Anyway, I went into all that in a separate thread (or more ), and that wasn't really the point of my coming on here now, to post.

    For this post, I saw where an earlier post referred to "S, M and A" (Dan3), and I just wanted to share a post I'd made the other day, elsewhere (b/c, as I mentioned above, I do not believe "those 3 in the fiery furnace" are a "type" of "the Church which is His body" going thru the trib years (note: Daniel is not there in the fiery furnace with them, he is elsewhere... recall where?!)

    Here's the post I'd made, and keep in mind that the phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" refers to "Gentile domination over Israel" (starting 606bc, and relating to Neb's dream/statue/image, with Neb as "head of gold"... and does NOT refer to "the church age" nor is it equated with the phrase "the FULNESS of the Gentiles")… with that in mind, here's the post:


    [quoting my post]

    [quoting Gaebelein, on Daniel 2]

    "The great man image [of Neb's dream] is the prophetic symbol of the “times of the Gentiles.” This expression “The times of the Gentiles” is not found in the book of Daniel, but it is a New Testament phrase. Our Lord used it exclusively. In that part of His prophetic discourse which is reported in the Gospel of Luke and which relates to the fall of Jerusalem and the dispersion of the nation, our Lord said: “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled” Luke 21:24. Now, the times of the Gentiles did not begin when Jerusalem rejected the Lord from heaven. Our Lord does not say that the times of the Gentiles were then ushered in. The times of the Gentiles started with the Babylonian captivity by Nebuchadnezzar. The glory of the Lord departed from Jerusalem. The other great prophet of the captivity, Ezekiel, beheld the departure of the Shekinah. […]"


    [AND... still quoting further]

    "Historical Events ([chpts] 3-6)

    "The four chapters [chpt 3-6] which follow the great dream of Nebuchadnezzar are of a historical character. They do not contain direct prophecies, but record certain events which transpired during the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, his successor and grandson Belshazzar, and Darius, the Mede. [...]
    [...]

    "These four chapters then give us historical events. Each has a prophetic meaning, though direct prophecy is not found in them.
    "These chapters describe the moral conditions which held sway during the two first world empires; they indicate prophetically the moral conditions which continue to the end of the times of the Gentiles [ending at end of trib, ending at Christ's RETURN to the earth (not our Rapture)]. Five things may be traced in these four chapters: The moral characteristics of the times of the Gentiles; what will happen at the close of these times; the faithful remnant in suffering [by this, he means the believing remnant of Jews who come to faith IN/DURING the trib years (those in Matt24:4-14! etc)]; their deliverance and the Gentiles acknowledging God, as King and the God of heaven."

    --Gaebelein, Daniel 2 Commentary [source: BibleHub]

    [end quoting; bold and underline mine, bracketed inserts mine]

    _____

    ...again, the phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" does not refer to "the church age" (it has nothing to do with that).

  14. #14

    Re: Types and shadows

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    Lol. If you view those images I posted it shows the type of the great tribulation. From what I see in my own studies of the Bible, the great tribulation which Christ said would take place immediately before His return, has noting to do with the wrath of God to come upon the world - it's he great tribulation of the saints at the hands of the beast and his armies, when the faithful remnant refuse to worship the beast and its image. It results in God's wrath when the beast is judged and the false prophet with it.
    Here's how I see that... I made this post elsewhere the other day but thought it would fit in here as well...

    Keep in mind as you read this... I've mentioned before the "wrath" words in Ezekiel 38:18-19 (Gog-Magog War [my personal understanding is that this "fits" in, time-wise, with the SEAL 2 Wars, fairly early in "the 7-yrs"--but my point isn't to argue, here, that point [re: timing of], but to point out how then Ezekiel 39:7 goes on to say, "SO [/in this way/thus] shall I MAKE MY holy name KNOWN unto MY PEOPLE Israel..."... meaning, this will be the means by which He does so... and His ultimate PURPOSE for same).



    [quoting my post]

    First off, let me just clarify that I believe the phrase "great tribulation [or, 'the great tribulation']" refers ONLY to the second half of the future 7-yrs... and that His "wrath" starts well before that point, in the chronology. But that's not the main point I came on here to say...


    Here's how I am seeing the various aspects of "WRATH" (I only have time to quote partial passages here, presently... plus, the post will be long enough already, and few read lengthy material anyway ) -


    "wrath" (pertaining to 70ad, and how He used their "enemies" in the events of same):

    --Luke 21:23,20 (in the 70ad section of the Olivet Discourse) "and WRATH upon this people"... "when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies"

    --Matthew 22:7 (in the 70ad part of the SEQUENCE) "when the king heard, HE WAS WROTH: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city." [v.8 then goes on to tell of the "further revelation" that took place in the LATER 95ad writings of "[The] Revelation," where 1:1 correlates with 4:1/1:19c (7:3), the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book, the part that refers to the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period (i.e. describing the far-future 70th-Wk/7-yrs which lead UP TO His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom)]

    --Luke 19:41-44, esp. v43 (Jesus, to Jerusalem, on Palm Sunday [the very day that the "62 Wks" was fulfilled (7 and then the 62; or 69 total, thus far)], just before His death later that same week) "thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round,... And shall lay thee even with the ground... because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation."



    As for the "far-future" aspect of "wrath," I see this:

    --"for God has not appointed US ['the Church which is His body'] to WRATH..." (1Th5:9-10, in the context of the 1Th5:2-3 passage I'm always pointing out with its parallels [Matt24:4/Mk13:5; 2Th2:7b-8a; 2Th2:9a/Dan9:27a[26]; i.e. SEAL #1 at the START of the 7-yrs [i.e. the ARRIVAL of "the man of sin" at the ARRIVAL of the DOTL time period]); and... "the one delivering US out from the WRATH coming" 1Th1:10 (an eschatological "wrath"--taking place/unfolding "on the earth")

    --and how the wording of 2 Thessalonians 2:7b-8a ( ^ ) is very similar to that of Lamentations 2:3-4 (in the context of "WRATH" words and "judgments" on Israel [i.e. how He operates]), where it [2Th2:7-8] says, "the one restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be], AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed..." and Lam2:3-4 says (in very similar language), "...he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy [effectively saying (to their enemy) 'HAVE AT IT!'/'go ahead, sic 'em!'], and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about."

    --the "whose COMING" v.9a and the v.8a "be revealed" of the "man of sin" is at the START of the 7-yrs, equivalent to the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR (1Th5:2-3); Matt24:4/Mk13:5 G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE']" i.e. SEAL #1 rider of the white horse with a "bow" (often representing "deception"), parallel with Dan9:27a[26 - "prince THAT SHALL COME"... and "for ONE WEEK [7-yrs]"]--so this in 2Th2:8a and 9a is at the START of the 7-yrs, not at its MIDDLE, and not at its END; 2Th2:3-9a is covering ALL 7 yrs (in its THREE PARTS: its BEGINNING, its MIDDLE, its END), just as Dan9:27[26] is: its BEGINNING, its MIDDLE, its END [7-yrs total]




    I believe the "wrath" STARTS when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13 / Rev4-5), when He Himself opens the FIRST SEAL at the START of the 7-yr period (the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period spoken of in Rev1:1[4:1/1:19c(7:3)] and Lk18:8[/17:26-37] and also Rom16:20 (<--but this verse referring to US, "the Church which is His body," doing the 1Cor6:3[14] thing in/from a distinct location from where the other two passages' contexts will unfold/play out "on the earth"--one of the reasons for our "Rapture/Departure" [IN THE AIR])

    [end quoting that post]

    __________


    My main point being, to show (via scriptural precedent) how HE USES their "enemies" in His exercise of His "WRATH," like as a MEANS of it (IOW, the START of the 70th-Wk/7-yrs and His opening of the SEALS [Seal #1 being the equivalent of the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3, Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'," aka "the man of sin be revealed" (at the START of those yrs), aka the "whose COMING" 2Th2:9a / 2Th2:8a (Dan9:27a[26]--"that SHALL COME"/"for ONE WEEK [7-yrs]"), and not that His "wrath" comes as a RESULT (or ENDING-point) of other mens' [enemies'] tribulation thrust upon them (though surely this is also involved)... I'm just saying, the "WRATH" STARTS when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13 / Rev4-5), not way later in the chronology (like at the end of those specific yrs and as merely a result of [or reaction towards] others' doings within those yrs).

    I think this has much scriptural precedent, from what I can see.

  15. #15

    Re: Types and shadows

    Sorry... not sure if the EDIT feature is working yet... I need to correct the verse I quoted, which should read (instead): "
    "
    SO
    [/in this way/thus] shall I MAKE MY holy name KNOWN in the midst of MY PEOPLE Israel..."

    [added/inserted the enlarged text words]

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