View Poll Results: Who is the house of Israel to you today?

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Thread: Who is the house of Israel to you today?

  1. #16
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    Re: Who is the house of Israel to you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Thank you, I agree with you, there is a difference between the house of God and house of Israel. There are still things that need to be fulfilled re Israel so to me that is the physical seed.
    No, there isn't, and maybe like Joseph, when he finally revealed to his brothers who he was and they were dismayed in his presence, Jesus will forgive them (at least those who survive). The rest of the generations that have wandered in the wilderness will never enter the promised land, but there is nothing that still needs to be fulfilled except the Jews who believed in Jesus judging (as rulers over the naturally born survivors and their descendants) the 12 tribes of Israel during the millennium.

  2. #17
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    Re: Who is the house of Israel to you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    I can tell you who the house of Israel today is not, because Jesus and the apostles taught:

    "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
    (John 15:6, MKJV)

    "And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and became a sharer of the root and the fatness of the olive tree with them, do not boast against the branches. But if you boast, it is not you that bears the root, but the root bears you." (Romans 11:16-17, MKJV)

    Genesis 22:18: "And in your Seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."

    Gal 3:16: "And to Abraham and to his Seed the promises were spoken. It does not say, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, "And to your Seed," which is Christ."

    The only seed of Abraham through whom all the nations are blessed, is Christ. Those who are not in Him throuogh their faith in Him, are not members of the house of Israel. Jesus (and Paul after Him) made is 100% clear that physical ancestry does not count, but only those who are of the faith of Abraham - and it does not matter if we are not born natural descendants of Abraham:

    "And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and became a sharer of the root and the fatness of the olive tree with them, do not boast against the branches. But if you boast, it is not you that bears the root, but the root bears you." (Romans 11:16-17, MKJV)

    So the house of Israel is not those who reject Christ, whether natural descendants or no.

    So only Christians are "the house of Israel" - so call me a racist, a bigot, a xenophobe, an anti-patriot, a thief, ... all the words C.N.N can think of, I don't care...

    Israel is the church.
    Despite your fervency, your proffered verses do not say that Israel is the Church. Would you care to give some that do? Thanks.

    In your proofs you have offered the Tree of John 15 and the Tree of Romans 11. We are not allowed to interpret the Bible with our personal thoughts (2nd Pet.1:20). This leaves only the Bible as the source of interpretation. And a TREE in parable is a king and his kingdom (Judg.9:8-15; Ezek.31:1-18; Dan.4:10-26). In Romans 11 the NEITHER the Church NOR Israel is the Olive Tree. They are BOTH BRANCHES. They must be part of a Kingdom whose King and Root IS HOLY. There is only ONE holy King and that is our Lord Jesus. The Branches are divided into Israel, and are called "natural branches" when they were cit out, and are again called natural branches when they are grafted in again. They do not stop being "natural branches". The Church taken out of the Gentiles is called "wild branches" and they remain "wild branches" even when Israel is grafted in again.

    Furthermore, the "natural branches" are cut out because of UNBELIEF. But only temporarily. They are grafted in again STILL IN UNBELIEF. Romans 11:30-31 says that they are grafted in again BY MERCY - not faith. And the reason they are grafted in by MERCY is because a "Deliverer" comes, not from heaven, but out of SION. And this "Deliverer" does not bring Israel to faith, but turns them from UNGODLINESS. This word "ungodly" in the Greek does not mean faithlessness. It means "impiety" or "wickedness" which are WORKS. Your theory did not include this recovery. Your theory is that once cut out they are NEVER grafted in again. But that is not the case.

    Furthermore, the "wild branches" are grafted in because of faith, BUT verses 20-22 THREATEN the "wild branches" with being cut off. But they are not threatened because they stop believing. They are threatened BECAUSE OF THE RESULTS OF "HIGHMINDEDNESS". "Highmindedness" is not the failure of faith. Highmindedness is an attitude of lofty thoughts towards oneself FOR HAVING FAITH. It is the opposite of a "poor and contrite spirit" (Isa.66:2). Highmindedness is an inward appreciation of oneself that Satan had in Isaiah 14:13. And in this verse the inward appreciation caused certain actions. So in Romans 11:20-22 the "wild branches" who are grafted in "unnaturally", are in danger of being cut out again FOR WORKS.

    To summarize the Tree of Romans 11, we can say;
    • A Tree in Parable is a king and his kingdom
    • The Root is holy. That can only mean Christ is the Root
    • The Olive Tree is Christ's Kingdom then
    • Christ offered the kingdom to Israel who refused it due to unbelief
    • Israel was cut out but Paul promises that at any time an Israelite believes, he will be grafted in again (Rom.11:23)
    • Israel's designation and status as "NATURAL Branches" NEVER changes
    • Israel will be grafted in again when the Deliverer is no more in heaven but is in SION - Jerusalem
    • That is, Israel will be recovered into the Kingdom of Christ AFTER He has returned to earth
    • The Gentiles who believed are grafted in to the Kingdom
    • The Gentiles who believed are under threat that for WORKS they could be cut out
    • The Gentiles who believed REMAIN "wild branches" and are NEVER changed to "natural branches"

    Now, the above could NEVER happen to the Church because in the Church there is NO DIFFERENCE between Jew and Gentile. 2nd Corinthians 5:17 says that their past is wiped out and they are a fully NEW CREATURE. This is confirmed by Galatians 3:28 and Colossians 3:11. There is NO POSSIBILITY of "natural" verses "wild" because THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE!

    • In the whole New Testament Israel never ceases to exist. In the consummate end - New Jerusalem, they are still there as the Gates of the City.
    • In the whole New Testament Israel is never called the Church
    • In the whole New Testament Israel persecutes the Church
    • In the whole New Testament the Church is CONTRASTED with Israel
    • In the whole New Testament the Church is NEVER called Israel
    • In the consummate end of God's revelation, the Church remains DIFFERENT to Israel. They are the FOUNDATION and WALL of the City
    • In the consummate end of God's plan Israel are PEARLS
    • In the consummate end of God's plan the Church is PRECIOUS STONES

    Israel CANNOT BE THE CHURCH.

  3. #18
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    Re: Who is the house of Israel to you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    You bring up Abraham and this had to do with Jacob. Esau married of the gene pool of Abraham. Jacob is Israel, and had 4 different women that he produced sons from and we are not told where the handmaids were from. All of Jacobs sons did not marry Hebrew women that I am aware of. So how important was this to the Lord? We know Joseph married an Egyptian. We know Judah took a Canaanite. We know Moses married an Ethiopian.



    Going by what you say here, Moses sons were not Israel and Joseph's sons were not Israel yet his sons received the blessing of Jacob of his name. And what about Ruth? So what you state is not scriptural. I don't know of any scripture that backs up what you state here. Do you have any?
    You don't understand me. God promised something for all nations from Abraham, and something specifically racial from Abraham. God promised something for all nations and for the nation that Abraham would specifically create, biologically.

    Secondarily, this biological nation would have to be defined as a nation, by creating a specific culture for it. So it is not just biological descendancy that matters, in defining the "house of Israel." Additionally, the children of Abraham must be associated with the *culture* that became that specific nation.

    That nation was defined, initially, by association with the Law of Israel, which was the Law of Moses. Since the redemption of Christ, the Law obviously no longer applies. But the Jewish culture has continued, despite the loss of nationhood, by virtue of extension from the original Jewish culture.

    That's how the "house of Israel" is defined. It is *not* defined by Replacement Theology, but by reality, as it was originally applied. God does *not* speak out of both sides of His mouth!

  4. #19
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    Re: Who is the house of Israel to you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    I can tell you who the house of Israel today is not, because Jesus and the apostles taught:

    "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
    (John 15:6, MKJV)

    "And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and became a sharer of the root and the fatness of the olive tree with them, do not boast against the branches. But if you boast, it is not you that bears the root, but the root bears you." (Romans 11:16-17, MKJV)
    You are misapplying this to the casting off of Israel, which Paul specifically forbade! In OT circumstances--and Paul's Bible was the OT--Gentiles could marry into the Jewish People by adopting Jewish Law, which was the Law of Moses. Paul therefore used the example of Gentiles being grafted onto the Jewish tree.

    In Paul's time, the Christian "tree" had not yet expanded much beyond Israel, in the sense of making new Christian nations. And not even Israel had become a Christian nation. Israel had been the only theocracy producing a relative few Christians. It was hardly a full "tree!"

    So Paul was just using a metaphor of how Gentiles had been grafted onto the tree of Israel. It had nothing to do with Gentile Christians becoming part of "Israel." It only had to do with Gentiles becoming Christians. Gentile Christians have now, for centuries, been able to become their own theocracies, ie Christian nations. Israel remains Israel, and the US remains the US, the UK remains the UK, etc. etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy
    Genesis 22:18: "And in your Seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."

    Gal 3:16: "And to Abraham and to his Seed the promises were spoken. It does not say, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, "And to your Seed," which is Christ."
    I think Paul was referring to the fact that as Isaac was "one," so Christ is "one." It is not a denial that promises were made to physical Israel--they were! But Paul is drawing upon the allegory that as God made a promise to Abraham involving a single son so He would fulfill His promise through a single Son.

    What God promised to "the single son," Isaac, truly came to be applied to all Israel, assuming they truly had faith. And what God has promised through Christ, God's only Son, also applies to all who have faith in him, regardless of nationality.

    This does not exclude entire nations becoming theocracies! It does not preclude Israel returning, as a nation, to faith. Christ has made it possible not only for Jews to return to Christ, but also, for the entire Jewish nation to return to Christianity.

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy
    The only seed of Abraham through whom all the nations are blessed, is Christ. Those who are not in Him throuogh their faith in Him, are not members of the house of Israel. Jesus (and Paul after Him) made is 100% clear that physical ancestry does not count, but only those who are of the faith of Abraham - and it does not matter if we are not born natural descendants of Abraham:

    "And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and became a sharer of the root and the fatness of the olive tree with them, do not boast against the branches. But if you boast, it is not you that bears the root, but the root bears you." (Romans 11:16-17, MKJV)
    Physical ancestry is as important to God, in His promises to Abraham, as it is to you, with your own children. If you think the neighbors' children are more important than you're own, you're kidding yourself! How is it you only think the neighbors' children have faith, and yours don't?

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy
    So the house of Israel is not those who reject Christ, whether natural descendants or no.
    Paul said that not all Israel rejected Christ, and that the remnant of believers in Israel are standing in for the ultimate restoration of the whole nation to faith in Christ. Your theology denies this.

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy
    So only Christians are "the house of Israel" - so call me a racist, a bigot, a xenophobe, an anti-patriot, a thief, ... all the words C.N.N can think of, I don't care...

    Israel is the church.
    Nobody is calling you names, except that you are, in fact, a Replacement Theologian. That is simply what you believe. I don't believe it accords with the Bible.

    Israel has indeed rejected Christ, as a whole, for many generations. However, Paul argued that the continuing existence of a remnant of Christians among the Jews will lead to final and complete national restoration to Christianity.

    We can disagree agreeably, since this is an age-long disagreement. It has very little to do with fundamentals of the Christian faith. But it has everything to do with the hope of nations to be restored to Christianity. And it sometimes affects, negatively, how we view the State of Israel, and the Jewish People, as well.

    I would treat the Jewish People much as we should treat all ethnicities. The majority, ultimately, turn bad over time, because human nature always tends towards degeneration, adopting, as a majority, a diluted, corrupt position.

    But we should recognize that Christ's grace will always extend to the few. And we should hope for this. We should preach the gospel to all--to good and bad, so that all may benefit from the morality of the Gospel, and so that a few will benefit from the spirituality of the Gospel, some obtaining eternal life and fellowship with the saints.

    This also should be how we treat the Jewish People. God's promises will always come true. And I believe God has made eternal promises concerning the Jewish People. The NT covenant did not annul those promises made in the prior age.

  5. #20
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    Re: Who is the house of Israel to you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Despite your fervency, your proffered verses do not say that Israel is the Church. Would you care to give some that do? Thanks.
    Eph 2:19-22 "Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,.."

    The household of God - not the House of God is mentioned immediately afterwards - and it's the church, natural branches (the remnant) + unnatural branches grafted in (also a remnant of the nations, it's not the majority of the people of the nations)

    ".. and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom every building having been fitly framed together, grows into a holy sanctuary in the Lord; in whom you also are built together for a dwelling place of Go d through the Spirit.

    The citizens are physical people, who are led by the Spirit of God - and they make up the church.

    Trying to separate the church from the citizens in order to make broken-off branches be considered Israel is the same as cutting off the head (Jesus, the King of Israel) from His body. The two (the nation of Israel and the church are one and the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    We are not allowed to interpret the Bible with our personal thoughts (2nd Pet.1:20).
    Which is what you are doing. Separating Israel from the church, the King from His nation just because you want to keep those natural branches who have separated themselves from the King and the (new) covenant (and hence, from God) in the picture.

    It does not matter if they are grafted back into their own Olive tree again if they repent of their unbelief and the Gentiles are not grafted "back into" but "into". In Christ their is neither natural seed nor unnatural seed (Jew nor Gentile). The verse does not say both Jew and Gentile, but neither Jew nor Gentile:

    "Gal 3:26-29 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many as were baptized into Christ, you put on Christ. Gal 3:28 There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is no male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise."

    God only considers Jew and Gentile alike Abraham's seed if they are Christ's. John the Baptist said so, Jesus said so, Paul said so - it's Christians who say, "No, that's not true".

    And if we are Christ's, then we are together also the church. There is no distinction between nation (Israel) and church. None. Nada. Why? Because you have to be Abraham's seed, and considered by God to be Abraham's seed, to be part of Israel.

    The time may come (and I believe it will, or at least hope it will) when all Jews who are left after whatever is coming, will be joined to the church - but they will probably be the naturally born survivors who "looked on Him whom they had pierced and mourned for Him.." just as they had done when Joseph revealed himself to them. God will have mercy on them because He had mercy upon the Gentiles, when they repent. Joseph wanted his brothers to repent ifirst and gave them time, but they did not. They only repented when they saw him. Perhaps Elijah is coming before the great and terrible Day of the LORD to turn away ungodliness (lack of faith from Jacob.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    We are not allowed to interpret the Bible with our personal thoughts (2nd Pet.1:20).
    Which is what you are doing when you say, "they are grafted in again still in unbelief" and when you say they are grafted in again "by mercy not faith". The deliverer delivers them from ungodliness - which is what lack of faith in the Word of God is. Jesus is the Word of God.

    Everything you say below is not what John, Jesus or the apostles taught:

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    They are grafted in again STILL IN UNBELIEF. Romans 11:30-31 says that they are grafted in again BY MERCY - not faith. And the reason they are grafted in by MERCY is because a "Deliverer" comes, not from heaven, but out of SION. And this "Deliverer" does not bring Israel to faith, but turns them from UNGODLINESS. This word "ungodly" in the Greek does not mean faithlessness. It means "impiety" or "wickedness" which are WORKS. Your theory did not include this recovery.
    That's just not true. Absolutely not true. Joseph's brothers repented when he revealed to them who he was, and he forgave them. Joseph had all the power and authority of Pharaoh and could have had them all except Benjamin put to death for what they had done to him - but he did not, he forgave them. What you are saying is tantamount to saying that our grafting in is not because we repent and have faith but only because God had mercy on us through their unbelief. If that were true, every Gentile would be saved through mercy because of the unbelief of the Jews.

    The Jews were in any case never called the house of Israel all by themselves - they were the house of Judah, and together with the house of Israel they were all Israel - until the house of Israel was cut off. But she of whom it was said, "you are not my people, and I am not your God" received mercy when the Gentiles began to become grafted into the tree, fulfilling Jacob's death-bed prophecy that Ephraim's seed would become the fullness of the Gentiles, and so through our mercy Judah too will receive mercy - but not without their repentance of their unbelief in Jesus. No human being receives God's mercy without faith in Jesus. It's you who is interpreting the scriptures with your own personal thoughts.

    Pack the Jews (all those who do not believe in Jesus) and their state which they call Israel into whatever box you want, but you cannot pack them into God's Israel - which is the only Israel which ever existed or will ever exist

    Furthermore, the "natural branches" are cut out because of UNBELIEF. But only temporarily. Your theory did not include this recovery. Your theory is that once cut out they are NEVER grafted in again. But that is not the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Furthermore, the "natural branches" are cut out because of UNBELIEF. But only temporarily. Your theory did not include this recovery. Your theory is that once cut out they are NEVER grafted in again. But that is not the case.
    I never said that. I said that the Jews of today who do not believe in Jesus are not part of Israel - the only citizens of Israel are those in Christ. They are the ones whom God considers Abraham's seed and the rest (as John the Baptist said, and as Jesus said, and as Paul said) are broken off, wandering in a spiritual wilderness until that generation which will be grafted in again, is grafted in again through their repentance of their unbelief , not "in their unbelief", as you claim.

    The only reason why unnatural branches may be cut off also, is for the same reason the natural branches were cut off - and that is why we are not to be highminded towards the Jews who do not believe - because our salvation is mercy. Paul is basically reminding Gentiles that no Gentile's salvation is due to the Gentile believer being better than the unbelieving Jews who have been cut off. If any Gentile saved by grace develops pride against the Jews who are cut off, he needs to be very careful - because he is proving by his pride that he is no better than they.

    Your reminder to me, if it was an accusation about my attitude towards the Jews, is a false accusation. If it was not an accusation, good - because I have not accused you of pride or sin or anything else - but I am telling you that you have a adopted a personal interpretation of the scriptures and the entire method by which God saves humanity, by saying they Jews will be grafted in again in their unbelief.

    No. They must first repent, the way Joseph's brothers did. Had they not repented, Joseph would have helped Benjamin and his father and the rest would have been cut off from Israel's inheritance way back in Egypt before they entered the promised land .

    I don't have to respond to what may be true and correct, and what is untrue in the rest of your reply, because your first domino is false regarding your claim that Jews who do not believe are still part of Israel, and being grafted back in again "in unbelief" and so you will interpret everything else in the "light of" your first domino, which pushes over all the others when it falls.

    God did not approve of Joseph's brothers' betrayal of Joseph - but he allowed it to happen because His end plan was the salvation of all Egypt and Israel from famine. It was only because Joseph forgave them that they lived after seeing him again. God did not tell the anti-Christ Zionists who loathe the name of Jesus and have contempt for what they regard as the "Christian notions" about him (regardless of their tolerance of Christians, for now), to go force the state of Israel back into existence - man's way.

    If you're going to be on anbody's side, be on Christ's side.

  6. #21
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    Re: Who is the house of Israel to you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You are misapplying this to the casting off of Israel, which Paul specifically forbade! In OT circumstances--and Paul's Bible was the OT--Gentiles could marry into the Jewish People by adopting Jewish Law, which was the Law of Moses. Paul therefore used the example of Gentiles being grafted onto the Jewish tree.

    In Paul's time, the Christian "tree" had not yet expanded much beyond Israel, in the sense of making new Christian nations. And not even Israel had become a Christian nation. Israel had been the only theocracy producing a relative few Christians. It was hardly a full "tree!"

    So Paul was just using a metaphor of how Gentiles had been grafted onto the tree of Israel. It had nothing to do with Gentile Christians becoming part of "Israel." It only had to do with Gentiles becoming Christians. Gentile Christians have now, for centuries, been able to become their own theocracies, ie Christian nations. Israel remains Israel, and the US remains the US, the UK remains the UK, etc. etc.



    I think Paul was referring to the fact that as Isaac was "one," so Christ is "one." It is not a denial that promises were made to physical Israel--they were! But Paul is drawing upon the allegory that as God made a promise to Abraham involving a single son so He would fulfill His promise through a single Son.

    What God promised to "the single son," Isaac, truly came to be applied to all Israel, assuming they truly had faith. And what God has promised through Christ, God's only Son, also applies to all who have faith in him, regardless of nationality.

    This does not exclude entire nations becoming theocracies! It does not preclude Israel returning, as a nation, to faith. Christ has made it possible not only for Jews to return to Christ, but also, for the entire Jewish nation to return to Christianity.



    Physical ancestry is as important to God, in His promises to Abraham, as it is to you, with your own children. If you think the neighbors' children are more important than you're own, you're kidding yourself! How is it you only think the neighbors' children have faith, and yours don't?



    Paul said that not all Israel rejected Christ, and that the remnant of believers in Israel are standing in for the ultimate restoration of the whole nation to faith in Christ. Your theology denies this.



    Nobody is calling you names, except that you are, in fact, a Replacement Theologian. That is simply what you believe. I don't believe it accords with the Bible.

    Israel has indeed rejected Christ, as a whole, for many generations. However, Paul argued that the continuing existence of a remnant of Christians among the Jews will lead to final and complete national restoration to Christianity.

    We can disagree agreeably, since this is an age-long disagreement. It has very little to do with fundamentals of the Christian faith. But it has everything to do with the hope of nations to be restored to Christianity. And it sometimes affects, negatively, how we view the State of Israel, and the Jewish People, as well.

    I would treat the Jewish People much as we should treat all ethnicities. The majority, ultimately, turn bad over time, because human nature always tends towards degeneration, adopting, as a majority, a diluted, corrupt position.

    But we should recognize that Christ's grace will always extend to the few. And we should hope for this. We should preach the gospel to all--to good and bad, so that all may benefit from the morality of the Gospel, and so that a few will benefit from the spirituality of the Gospel, some obtaining eternal life and fellowship with the saints.

    This also should be how we treat the Jewish People. God's promises will always come true. And I believe God has made eternal promises concerning the Jewish People. The NT covenant did not annul those promises made in the prior age.
    I was talking tongue-in-cheek about being accused of xenophobia etc, and I meant to add "Replacement Theologist" to that list, because I knew that's what I would be called. It does not bother me. "The church" did not replace the elect nation - the tree existed and Gentiles started being grafted into it through faith in Jesus and repentance of ungodliness. The O.T temple was done away with and replaced with the church. But the church is made up of the fellow citizens of the nation (the branches in the Olive tree, both natural remnant and remnant from among the nations) - so the two are one and cannot be separated.

    The olive tree represents Israel. Branches that are broken off are not still there. For the sake of the fathers (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) a time may come when all Jews will be grafted back in again - but not before they repent. Why? Because we are no better than the unbelieving Jews, just because we have received mercy through our faith while they have been broken off through their unbelief. Mercy and grace is not a credit score, else it would be our wages, which goes against the entire gospel. They will receive mercy too if they do not continue in unbelief, because we have received mercy - and we are no better than they (I know you know that - I'm saying it because I think my post causes people to assume I think I'm better or that "we Gentiles" are better than they). The last thing anyone could truthfully accuse me of is that sort of pride. BUT tragic as it is, the Jews who do not believe in Jesus are not Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You are misapplying this to the casting off of Israel, which Paul specifically forbade! In OT circumstances--and Paul's Bible was the OT--Gentiles could marry into the Jewish People by adopting Jewish Law, which was the Law of Moses. Paul therefore used the example of Gentiles being grafted onto the Jewish tree.

    In Paul's time, the Christian "tree" had not yet expanded much beyond Israel, in the sense of making new Christian nations. And not even Israel had become a Christian nation. Israel had been the only theocracy producing a relative few Christians. It was hardly a full "tree!"

    So Paul was just using a metaphor of how Gentiles had been grafted onto the tree of Israel. It had nothing to do with Gentile Christians becoming part of "Israel." It only had to do with Gentiles becoming Christians. Gentile Christians have now, for centuries, been able to become their own theocracies, ie Christian nations. Israel remains Israel, and the US remains the US, the UK remains the UK, etc. etc.



    I think Paul was referring to the fact that as Isaac was "one," so Christ is "one." It is not a denial that promises were made to physical Israel--they were! But Paul is drawing upon the allegory that as God made a promise to Abraham involving a single son so He would fulfill His promise through a single Son.

    What God promised to "the single son," Isaac, truly came to be applied to all Israel, assuming they truly had faith. And what God has promised through Christ, God's only Son, also applies to all who have faith in him, regardless of nationality.

    This does not exclude entire nations becoming theocracies! It does not preclude Israel returning, as a nation, to faith. Christ has made it possible not only for Jews to return to Christ, but also, for the entire Jewish nation to return to Christianity.



    Physical ancestry is as important to God, in His promises to Abraham, as it is to you, with your own children. If you think the neighbors' children are more important than you're own, you're kidding yourself! How is it you only think the neighbors' children have faith, and yours don't?



    Paul said that not all Israel rejected Christ, and that the remnant of believers in Israel are standing in for the ultimate restoration of the whole nation to faith in Christ. Your theology denies this.



    Nobody is calling you names, except that you are, in fact, a Replacement Theologian. That is simply what you believe. I don't believe it accords with the Bible.

    Israel has indeed rejected Christ, as a whole, for many generations. However, Paul argued that the continuing existence of a remnant of Christians among the Jews will lead to final and complete national restoration to Christianity.

    We can disagree agreeably, since this is an age-long disagreement. It has very little to do with fundamentals of the Christian faith. But it has everything to do with the hope of nations to be restored to Christianity. And it sometimes affects, negatively, how we view the State of Israel, and the Jewish People, as well.

    I would treat the Jewish People much as we should treat all ethnicities. The majority, ultimately, turn bad over time, because human nature always tends towards degeneration, adopting, as a majority, a diluted, corrupt position.

    But we should recognize that Christ's grace will always extend to the few. And we should hope for this. We should preach the gospel to all--to good and bad, so that all may benefit from the morality of the Gospel, and so that a few will benefit from the spirituality of the Gospel, some obtaining eternal life and fellowship with the saints.

    This also should be how we treat the Jewish People. God's promises will always come true. And I believe God has made eternal promises concerning the Jewish People. The NT covenant did not annul those promises made in the prior age.
    I was talking tongue-in-cheek about being accused of xenophobia etc, and I meant to add "Replacement Theologist" to that list, because I knew that's what I would be called. It does not bother me. "The church" did not replace the elect nation - the tree existed and Gentiles started being grafted into it through faith in Jesus and repentance of ungodliness. The O.T temple was done away with and replaced with the church. But the church is made up of the fellow citizens of the nation (the branches in the Olive tree, both natural remnant and remnant from among the nations) - so the two are one and cannot be separated.

    The olive tree represents Israel. Branches that are broken off are not still there. For the sake of the fathers (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) a time may come when all Jews will be grafted back in again - but not before they repent. Why? Because we are no better than the unbelieving Jews, just because we have received mercy through our faith while they have been broken off through their unbelief. Mercy and grace is not a credit score, else it would be our wages, which goes against the entire gospel. They will receive mercy too if they do not continue in unbelief, because we have received mercy - and we are no better than they (I know you know that - I'm saying it because I think my post causes people to assume I think I'm better or that "we Gentiles" are better than they). The last thing anyone could truthfully accuse me of is that sort of pride. BUT tragic as it is, the Jews who do not believe in Jesus are not Israel.

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    Re: Who is the house of Israel to you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    If that was true then why did the Lord bring up the tribes in the book of Revelation? There is obviously some sort of separation in who the tribes are even if they are part of the church.
    They are part of the church, just are Jewish Christians. Gentile Christians are Israel but aren't originally born in Israel so they don't have tribes from their mothers.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Who is the house of Israel to you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    Eph 2:19-22 "Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,.."

    The household of God - not the House of God is mentioned immediately afterwards - and it's the church, natural branches (the remnant) + unnatural branches grafted in (also a remnant of the nations, it's not the majority of the people of the nations)

    ".. and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom every building having been fitly framed together, grows into a holy sanctuary in the Lord; in whom you also are built together for a dwelling place of Go d through the Spirit.

    The citizens are physical people, who are led by the Spirit of God - and they make up the church.

    Trying to separate the church from the citizens in order to make broken-off branches be considered Israel is the same as cutting off the head (Jesus, the King of Israel) from His body. The two (the nation of Israel and the church are one and the same.



    Which is what you are doing. Separating Israel from the church, the King from His nation just because you want to keep those natural branches who have separated themselves from the King and the (new) covenant (and hence, from God) in the picture.

    It does not matter if they are grafted back into their own Olive tree again if they repent of their unbelief and the Gentiles are not grafted "back into" but "into". In Christ their is neither natural seed nor unnatural seed (Jew nor Gentile). The verse does not say both Jew and Gentile, but neither Jew nor Gentile:

    "Gal 3:26-29 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many as were baptized into Christ, you put on Christ. Gal 3:28 There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is no male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise."

    God only considers Jew and Gentile alike Abraham's seed if they are Christ's. John the Baptist said so, Jesus said so, Paul said so - it's Christians who say, "No, that's not true".

    And if we are Christ's, then we are together also the church. There is no distinction between nation (Israel) and church. None. Nada. Why? Because you have to be Abraham's seed, and considered by God to be Abraham's seed, to be part of Israel.

    The time may come (and I believe it will, or at least hope it will) when all Jews who are left after whatever is coming, will be joined to the church - but they will probably be the naturally born survivors who "looked on Him whom they had pierced and mourned for Him.." just as they had done when Joseph revealed himself to them. God will have mercy on them because He had mercy upon the Gentiles, when they repent. Joseph wanted his brothers to repent ifirst and gave them time, but they did not. They only repented when they saw him. Perhaps Elijah is coming before the great and terrible Day of the LORD to turn away ungodliness (lack of faith from Jacob.



    Which is what you are doing when you say, "they are grafted in again still in unbelief" and when you say they are grafted in again "by mercy not faith". The deliverer delivers them from ungodliness - which is what lack of faith in the Word of God is. Jesus is the Word of God.

    Everything you say below is not what John, Jesus or the apostles taught:



    That's just not true. Absolutely not true. Joseph's brothers repented when he revealed to them who he was, and he forgave them. Joseph had all the power and authority of Pharaoh and could have had them all except Benjamin put to death for what they had done to him - but he did not, he forgave them. What you are saying is tantamount to saying that our grafting in is not because we repent and have faith but only because God had mercy on us through their unbelief. If that were true, every Gentile would be saved through mercy because of the unbelief of the Jews.

    The Jews were in any case never called the house of Israel all by themselves - they were the house of Judah, and together with the house of Israel they were all Israel - until the house of Israel was cut off. But she of whom it was said, "you are not my people, and I am not your God" received mercy when the Gentiles began to become grafted into the tree, fulfilling Jacob's death-bed prophecy that Ephraim's seed would become the fullness of the Gentiles, and so through our mercy Judah too will receive mercy - but not without their repentance of their unbelief in Jesus. No human being receives God's mercy without faith in Jesus. It's you who is interpreting the scriptures with your own personal thoughts.

    Pack the Jews (all those who do not believe in Jesus) and their state which they call Israel into whatever box you want, but you cannot pack them into God's Israel - which is the only Israel which ever existed or will ever exist

    Furthermore, the "natural branches" are cut out because of UNBELIEF. But only temporarily. Your theory did not include this recovery. Your theory is that once cut out they are NEVER grafted in again. But that is not the case.



    I never said that. I said that the Jews of today who do not believe in Jesus are not part of Israel - the only citizens of Israel are those in Christ. They are the ones whom God considers Abraham's seed and the rest (as John the Baptist said, and as Jesus said, and as Paul said) are broken off, wandering in a spiritual wilderness until that generation which will be grafted in again, is grafted in again through their repentance of their unbelief , not "in their unbelief", as you claim.

    The only reason why unnatural branches may be cut off also, is for the same reason the natural branches were cut off - and that is why we are not to be highminded towards the Jews who do not believe - because our salvation is mercy. Paul is basically reminding Gentiles that no Gentile's salvation is due to the Gentile believer being better than the unbelieving Jews who have been cut off. If any Gentile saved by grace develops pride against the Jews who are cut off, he needs to be very careful - because he is proving by his pride that he is no better than they.

    Your reminder to me, if it was an accusation about my attitude towards the Jews, is a false accusation. If it was not an accusation, good - because I have not accused you of pride or sin or anything else - but I am telling you that you have a adopted a personal interpretation of the scriptures and the entire method by which God saves humanity, by saying they Jews will be grafted in again in their unbelief.

    No. They must first repent, the way Joseph's brothers did. Had they not repented, Joseph would have helped Benjamin and his father and the rest would have been cut off from Israel's inheritance way back in Egypt before they entered the promised land .

    I don't have to respond to what may be true and correct, and what is untrue in the rest of your reply, because your first domino is false regarding your claim that Jews who do not believe are still part of Israel, and being grafted back in again "in unbelief" and so you will interpret everything else in the "light of" your first domino, which pushes over all the others when it falls.

    God did not approve of Joseph's brothers' betrayal of Joseph - but he allowed it to happen because His end plan was the salvation of all Egypt and Israel from famine. It was only because Joseph forgave them that they lived after seeing him again. God did not tell the anti-Christ Zionists who loathe the name of Jesus and have contempt for what they regard as the "Christian notions" about him (regardless of their tolerance of Christians, for now), to go force the state of Israel back into existence - man's way.

    If you're going to be on anbody's side, be on Christ's side.
    Thank you for your reply. My simple request to you was to produce verses that said that the Church was Israel. You will notice that besides Ephesians 2:19-22 and Galatians 3:26-29, you gave no scripture for your thoughts. And the two scriptures you gave do not say that Israel is the Church. BOTH scriptures pertain to the Covenant of Promise to Abraham - a Covenant that Promises rulership and ownership of the earth (Rom.4:13).

    God made Promises to Abraham and his seed. The Gentiles who became believers are NOT seed of Abraham. And since the earth in totality is promised to Abraham's seed, and Canaan specifically is promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob's seed, the question then in the Christian's mind is; "on what basis does the Gentile Christian INHERIT what was promised to Abraham and his seed. So Ephesians 2:11-22 starts with;

    11 "Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:"


    The word "Commonwealth" does not mean the Nation or State of Israel. The word "commonwealth" means, "how the affairs of state profit the citizen". And Circumcision was the "sign" that the HEIR had entered into this Covenant. So the Gentile believer was doubly cut off from the very thing he was saved for - The Kingdom of Heaven when Christ sets it up on earth. Then, Ephesians 2 goes on to say that God has made "ONE NEW MAN of the TWO. Which TWO? Israel and the Gentiles. They are no longer Israel - BUT NEW. They are no longer Gentiles - BUT NEW. But this NEW MAN in which there is neither Jew nor Greek has a problem. The problem is that the ex-Jewish believers were still bound by another Covenant - that of LAW. And this Covenant required that the Jew have no dealings with the Gentiles. So Christ solves this in advance. FOR THE CHURCH - NOT ISRAEL, the Law is abolished by it going with Christ to death. If the Lord did not do this, the Christian ex-Jews could not meet or be built up together with Christian ex-Gentiles.

    Now, while Israel is seed of Jacob, and the Covenant of Promise is made with him as well FOR CANAAN, Israel will eventually inherit their Land as an "everlasting possession". But since they refused Jesus Christ the Kingdom of Heaven, or, the rule and ownership of the whole earth is taken from them (Matt.21:43). A New Entity will now INHERIT this - The Household of God. The Household of any man is those BORN to him. John 3:3-6 says that only those BORN to the Father may see and enter the Kingdom. And it is this Household FOR THE KINGDOM that is also the "HABITATION OF GOD" - The Church. But since the Kingdom is being shown it can be traced back to the prophets. So while the Church as an Organic Living Entity has its foundation as Christ ALONE (1st Cor.3:10-12), the Kingdom, having been revealed in the Prophets - notably Daniel is a matter founded on God's Word in both Testaments with Christ as the Corner Stone. Israel will be restored to their Land, but Christians will rule them (Matt.19:28; Lk.22:30).

    The bottom line is that Ephesians 2 shows a New Man made OUT OF the old TWO - the Nation of Israel and the Nations. This New Man is eligible for the Promises made to Abraham, NOT by being seed to Jacob, by their BIRTH to the Father. And this New Man is a Temple and Habitation of God - the Church.

    Very similar is the matter in Galatians Chapter 3. Without going into a verse by verse exposition, the question there is, "how do Gentiles become eligible for the Covenant pf Promise. Now, while the Land of Canaan is obtained by being "seed according to the flesh" of Jacob and being circumcised, the Kingdom of Heaven - that is, the rulership of the whole earth CANNOT be had by the flesh (1st Cor.15:50-51). It must be had by a new and heavenly BIRTH by the Spirit (Jn.3:3-5). And this is ONLY to be had THROUGH Christ. Our Lord Jesus goes through a process of human conception, birth, life death and human resurrection. And only when this process is complete, is this "processed Spirit" given to BELIEVERS (Jn.7:39). So Christ was the Seed of Abraham that could achieve this, and those now who were IN Christ, or who had their ORIGIN in this Spirit, can be fit for the Kingdom of Heaven when it is set up on earth.

    Once again, Galatians Chapter 3 shows a Nation - Israel - FLESHLY seed of Jacob, UNDER CURSE. And it shows ANOTHER SEED - those born by the Spirit of Christ - made eligible for the Covenant of Promise made to Abraham.

    Thus, the only two scriptures you brought, prove that Israel and the Church are different Entities, but both are under the Covenant of Promise. Israel is guaranteed what was promised to Abraham - but via the flesh - Canaan. And the Church is guaranteed the whole earth that was promised to Abraham (Rom.4:13) - but via the Spirit of Christ, Seed of Abraham.

  9. #24
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    Re: Who is the house of Israel to you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    I was talking tongue-in-cheek about being accused of xenophobia etc, and I meant to add "Replacement Theologist" to that list, because I knew that's what I would be called. It does not bother me. "The church" did not replace the elect nation - the tree existed and Gentiles started being grafted into it through faith in Jesus and repentance of ungodliness. The O.T temple was done away with and replaced with the church. But the church is made up of the fellow citizens of the nation (the branches in the Olive tree, both natural remnant and remnant from among the nations) - so the two are one and cannot be separated.

    The olive tree represents Israel. Branches that are broken off are not still there. For the sake of the fathers (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) a time may come when all Jews will be grafted back in again - but not before they repent. Why? Because we are no better than the unbelieving Jews, just because we have received mercy through our faith while they have been broken off through their unbelief. Mercy and grace is not a credit score, else it would be our wages, which goes against the entire gospel. They will receive mercy too if they do not continue in unbelief, because we have received mercy - and we are no better than they (I know you know that - I'm saying it because I think my post causes people to assume I think I'm better or that "we Gentiles" are better than they). The last thing anyone could truthfully accuse me of is that sort of pride. BUT tragic as it is, the Jews who do not believe in Jesus are not Israel.
    It's obviously false that unbelieving Jews are not "Israel." You are just creating a different Israel than the original one. You are creating a "spiritual Israel," with which no unbeliever can identify.

    Throughout the OT there were lots of unbelieving Hebrews in Israel who nonetheless were part of "Israel." Being an unbeliever did not stop them from being identified with "Israel."

    When Israel was deported, and the nation in the land ceased to be, it was thought by many that there no longer was any "Israel." In a sense that was true--the national home no longer existed. But the people--the Jews--continued to exist. And as long as they existed, the hope of their return to their land continued.

    I would agree with you that the true Church consists only of true believers. However, I do not call the Church "Israel." Neither does the Bible call the Church "Israel." In the NT era Israel is still called "Israel"--not "spiritual Israel."

    For me, the central issue here is whether God has promised to restore Israel as a Christian nation, and whether God has promised to establish completely-Christian nations. I think He has and does.

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy
    I was talking tongue-in-cheek about being accused of xenophobia etc, and I meant to add "Replacement Theologist" to that list, because I knew that's what I would be called. It does not bother me. "The church" did not replace the elect nation - the tree existed and Gentiles started being grafted into it through faith in Jesus and repentance of ungodliness. The O.T temple was done away with and replaced with the church. But the church is made up of the fellow citizens of the nation (the branches in the Olive tree, both natural remnant and remnant from among the nations) - so the two are one and cannot be separated.

    The olive tree represents Israel. Branches that are broken off are not still there. For the sake of the fathers (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) a time may come when all Jews will be grafted back in again - but not before they repent. Why? Because we are no better than the unbelieving Jews, just because we have received mercy through our faith while they have been broken off through their unbelief. Mercy and grace is not a credit score, else it would be our wages, which goes against the entire gospel. They will receive mercy too if they do not continue in unbelief, because we have received mercy - and we are no better than they (I know you know that - I'm saying it because I think my post causes people to assume I think I'm better or that "we Gentiles" are better than they). The last thing anyone could truthfully accuse me of is that sort of pride. BUT tragic as it is, the Jews who do not believe in Jesus are not Israel.

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    Re: Who is the house of Israel to you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    I was wondering on the Christian knowledge of scriptures as to who they feel is the house of Israel today. Of course we know this started with Jacob who's name was changed to Israel. I wanted to know what Christians thought.


    True Israel are those of Faith, in Him, & who He sent - from Adam to you. Simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    I was wondering on the Christian knowledge of scriptures as to who they feel is the house of Israel today. Of course we know this started with Jacob who's name was changed to Israel. I wanted to know what Christians thought.


    True Israel are those of Faith, in Him, & who He sent - from Adam to you. Simple.
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

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    Re: Who is the house of Israel to you today?

    The whole reason for the pole was to see if Christians agreed with how the Jewish people did things today. They go by the seed of the mother to determine if you are Jewish (house of Israel) or not. Do you agree with this? I wanted to see what Christians thought based on what they see in scriptures. I thought a pole would help me find this out, but most of those here have not even answered the pole. The way they do things changed to this in 10-70 AD this is part of what they call “oral law”. I guess I should have been more clear as this didn't help me get my answer.

    Anyway I messed up my first pole sorry...maybe you can with reading this give an answer now.

    The whole reason for the pole was to see if Christians agreed with how the Jewish people did things today. They go by the seed of the mother to determine if you are Jewish (house of Israel) or not. Do you agree with this? I wanted to see what Christians thought based on what they see in scriptures. I thought a pole would help me find this out, but most of those here have not even answered the pole. The way they do things changed to this in 10-70 AD this is part of what they call “oral law”. I guess I should have been more clear as this didn't help me get my answer.

    Anyway I messed up my first pole sorry...maybe you can with reading this give an answer now.

  12. #27
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    Re: Who is the house of Israel to you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    The whole reason for the pole was to see if Christians agreed with how the Jewish people did things today. They go by the seed of the mother to determine if you are Jewish (house of Israel) or not. Do you agree with this? I wanted to see what Christians thought based on what they see in scriptures. I thought a pole would help me find this out, but most of those here have not even answered the pole. The way they do things changed to this in 10-70 AD this is part of what they call “oral law”. I guess I should have been more clear as this didn't help me get my answer.

    Anyway I messed up my first pole sorry...maybe you can with reading this give an answer now.

    The whole reason for the pole was to see if Christians agreed with how the Jewish people did things today. They go by the seed of the mother to determine if you are Jewish (house of Israel) or not. Do you agree with this? I wanted to see what Christians thought based on what they see in scriptures. I thought a pole would help me find this out, but most of those here have not even answered the pole. The way they do things changed to this in 10-70 AD this is part of what they call “oral law”. I guess I should have been more clear as this didn't help me get my answer.

    Anyway I messed up my first pole sorry...maybe you can with reading this give an answer now.
    Well then, let us address this:
    1. God's Promise was not to Sarah. It was to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
    2. Israel came from FOUR women - two wives and two concubines

    Conclusion .... ???

    The tradition that the seed of the woman is important has value though, for it is the "Seed of the woman" who will crush the Serpent's head. But the importance of this is derived from the fact that it would not be an angel or any other living creature that overturned the "head"-ship of the Serpent. It would be a MAN. The importance of this can be seen by the enemie's onslaught against the seed of the woman. Sodomy, homosexuality, bestiality and angels mixing with women are all aimed at negating the seed of the woman. For this reason was Noah saved. "His "generations were perfect" - that is, his lineage - how he was "generated" did not have the influence of an angel.

    But in the end the Covenant of Promise is about who rules and inherits the earth. Because of God's GOVERNMENT the man, the head of the woman is heir. This has no effect on female Christians for in matters of GRACE we are equal, and in matters of GOVERNMENT even the women Christians are "SONS of God" (Jn.1:12-13; Rom.8:14).

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    Re: Who is the house of Israel to you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    The whole reason for the pole was to see if Christians agreed with how the Jewish people did things today. They go by the seed of the mother to determine if you are Jewish (house of Israel) or not. Do you agree with this? I wanted to see what Christians thought based on what they see in scriptures. I thought a pole would help me find this out, but most of those here have not even answered the pole. The way they do things changed to this in 10-70 AD this is part of what they call “oral law”. I guess I should have been more clear as this didn't help me get my answer.

    Anyway I messed up my first pole sorry...maybe you can with reading this give an answer now.

    The whole reason for the pole was to see if Christians agreed with how the Jewish people did things today. They go by the seed of the mother to determine if you are Jewish (house of Israel) or not. Do you agree with this? I wanted to see what Christians thought based on what they see in scriptures. I thought a pole would help me find this out, but most of those here have not even answered the pole. The way they do things changed to this in 10-70 AD this is part of what they call “oral law”. I guess I should have been more clear as this didn't help me get my answer.

    Anyway I messed up my first pole sorry...maybe you can with reading this give an answer now.
    Yes, I completely misread the intent of your question. But it's a good question. I think physical descendancy, involving either father or mother, is more important than just the mother's lineage. It is a way a connection is made to Judaism, which is the primary culture defining the Jewish People.

    Conversion to Christianity virtually requires that the believer depart from his Jewish culture. However, a Jew can convert to Christianity while a resident in Israel, and remain associated with the Jewish People by virtue of living in a Jewish State.

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    Re: Who is the house of Israel to you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, I completely misread the intent of your question. But it's a good question. I think physical descendancy, involving either father or mother, is more important than just the mother's lineage. It is a way a connection is made to Judaism, which is the primary culture defining the Jewish People.
    See and I think of them as a people. I mean there were times they followed other gods but they were still the children of Israel and referred to as such. So I don't think of it as a culture. To think about culture to me and staying with the law I would think “remnant” would describe that.


    Conversion to Christianity virtually requires that the believer depart from his Jewish culture. However, a Jew can convert to Christianity while a resident in Israel, and remain associated with the Jewish People by virtue of living in a Jewish State.
    Christianity did depart but I don't think it is a requirement. Jesus told the people to “observe and do” as taught by the Pharisees Mt 23:2-3 but not to do after their works. So Jesus believed in it and encouraged them to do as instructed by the Pharisees, so this was Jesus instruction. Jesus did not teach people to depart from the law or customs. To Christians Jesus fulfilled the law so that was the difference.

    The phrase “children of Israel” is used 604 times in scriptures, “house of Israel” used 147 times, “house of their fathers” is used 52 times. I find these terms very interesting and all describing Israel to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, I completely misread the intent of your question. But it's a good question. I think physical descendancy, involving either father or mother, is more important than just the mother's lineage. It is a way a connection is made to Judaism, which is the primary culture defining the Jewish People.
    See and I think of them as a people. I mean there were times they followed other gods but they were still the children of Israel and referred to as such. So I don't think of it as a culture. To think about culture to me and staying with the law I would think “remnant” would describe that.


    Conversion to Christianity virtually requires that the believer depart from his Jewish culture. However, a Jew can convert to Christianity while a resident in Israel, and remain associated with the Jewish People by virtue of living in a Jewish State.
    Christianity did depart but I don't think it is a requirement. Jesus told the people to “observe and do” as taught by the Pharisees Mt 23:2-3 but not to do after their works. So Jesus believed in it and encouraged them to do as instructed by the Pharisees, so this was Jesus instruction. Jesus did not teach people to depart from the law or customs. To Christians Jesus fulfilled the law so that was the difference.

    The phrase “children of Israel” is used 604 times in scriptures, “house of Israel” used 147 times, “house of their fathers” is used 52 times. I find these terms very interesting and all describing Israel to me.

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    Re: Who is the house of Israel to you today?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    See and I think of them as a people. I mean there were times they followed other gods but they were still the children of Israel and referred to as such. So I don't think of it as a culture. To think about culture to me and staying with the law I would think “remnant” would describe that.
    The house of Israel is, in my view, and also by definition, a nation and a culture. Whenever you have a nation, or a people, you have a culture. A culture develops around the society created by the people in this context. That may be Judaism or that may be Christianity. But it is the people that make the culture.

    In the case of Israel today, the culture of the Jews is largely Judaism, but consists of many other religions as well. It is Judaism or an association with it that primarily keeps the Jews together as a people. However, just living in the State of Israel can also keep the Jewish People together. Arabs also live in Israel, but they denounce all association with those connected to Judaism in any way. So Arabs never can be viewed as part of the "house of Israel."

    The Jews, in a sense, created Christianity. So Messianic Jews do not find it out of sorts to claim "Jewish" status. They also believe they are part of the "house of Israel," even though the culture of Judaism tends to shun them. Still, they are often still viewed as "Jewish" when they live in the state of Israel and identify with the Jewish People.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd
    Christianity did depart but I don't think it is a requirement. Jesus told the people to “observe and do” as taught by the Pharisees Mt 23:2-3 but not to do after their works. So Jesus believed in it and encouraged them to do as instructed by the Pharisees, so this was Jesus instruction. Jesus did not teach people to depart from the law or customs. To Christians Jesus fulfilled the law so that was the difference.
    Well, you're talking "Old Testament" now. Jesus taught this *while the Law of Moses was still in effect!* At that time, the Jews were required by law to remain as one, and to remain distinct from the nations.

    After the cross, Jesus undid that requirement, and called for his apostles to bring his Gospel to the nations. The Jewish People remain the "Jewish People," as well as "the house of Israel." But the necessary separation, religiously, was no longer required.

    The Gospel broke down the wall of separation between Jews and Gentiles. It did not destroy the distinction of ethnicities, but it did destroy the separation based on Judaism. The house of Israel remains the House of Israel. But there is no longer a *religious* separation between the peoples of the world in the program of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd
    The phrase “children of Israel” is used 604 times in scriptures, “house of Israel” used 147 times, “house of their fathers” is used 52 times. I find these terms very interesting and all describing Israel to me.
    Yes, that's the definition. The Jewish People are still "the house of Israel."

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