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Thread: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

  1. #46
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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    The premise that this thread and the other is attempting to create is that "earth," "world," "all under heaven" does NOT mean, the entire (or all the) earth globally.

    If that is what the scriptures dealing with the flood show us, then any and all "judgement" related scriptures brought up in this thread have to mean the same. Meaning, not all the earth will face judgement and some unbelievers, will survive (your words).

    The premise that this thread and the other is attempting to create is that "earth," "world," "all under heaven" does NOT mean, the entire (or all the) earth globally.

    If that is what the scriptures dealing with the flood show us, then any and all "judgement" related scriptures brought up in this thread have to mean the same. Meaning, not all the earth will face judgement and some unbelievers, will survive (your words).
    What people fail to understand is that the flood was such a dramatic judgement, it can be used as a symbol for any event when God brings a dramatic judgement, whether that future judgement is worldwide or local.

    Some examples of dramatic judgements to come are as follows:

    1) the flood is compared to the rapture as per Matt 24:37-41

    2) the flood mentioned in 2 Peter 3 probably relates to the judgement of ungodly nations as per Matthew 25. Nations that treat the brethren badly are destroyed by fire, nations that treat the brethren well are blessed.

    3) there is a 3rd judgement of complete destruction at the second coming, that of all the armies attacking Jerusalem, which will be completely destroyed.

    Some here are trying to turn the comparison between the flood and 2nd coming judgement into an amill type complete destruction of the world which is contradicted by multiple verses.

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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnE View Post
    The flood of Noah's day came from God directly, the workings of man. Of course, the sins of man brought on the judgment. I am just saying that those people in that day didn't cause the rain or open the fountains of the deep. The judgment of God will come from Him directly, not man's weapons. The judgment of fire is just that. Fire from heaven which God sends upon the wicked.

    First, Noah and his family were secured in safety. Then destruction from God came upon the wicked. So it will be again at the third Day of the Lord. Jesus will gather His elect into the wilderness and then cast out satan to punish the sinners, ending with the fourth and final Day of the Lord. Armageddon, in which He comes like a thief to wipe out satan and his army.

    Btw, the end of the age is the end of the Millennium. Just as Jesus answered that question of the disciples in Matt 24:35-36. The day heaven and earth pass away, the day no one knows the day or hour.
    "Heaven and earth will pass away" appears to be a poetic way of saying history in the old age will pass, and be succeeded by a new age. This is how the Jews perceived the Hope of Israel, or the Hope of the Age to Come. The Messianic Age will bring a close to the old earth, and initiate a whole new earth.

    Many of us, including myself, believe that the new earth will partly begin in the Millennial Kingdom, but will be fully initiated at the end of the Millennium. I'm not really sure about this, however. It's just where I'm at now.

    I do believe that Armageddon will be a judgment "by fire" that involves a major earthly war, an internation war--an atomic war that impacts the whole earth. I say that because generals and armies are referenced in the book of Revelation. Certainly God will be behind it, orchestrating it. He will use angels to administer it, and people to cause it and participate in it. Whether or not God throws down special, supernatural fire from heaven I don't know. All I know is that a terrible judgment is waiting for the earth just prior to Christ's Coming.

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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Help me out then. On Jesus' right, all the believers and on Jesus' left, all unbelievers. Based on the premise of this thread and the other, how many on the side of judgement, survive? You seem to be insisting some unbelievers on the earth survived the flood, you also seem to be insisting that some unbelievers in S/G, survived. Are you going to insist that some on Jesus' left will survive too?
    Unbelievers do physically survive. For them the comparison of universal judgement is to miss the resurrection.

    Us believers rule the nation's in future, if the nations are believers, who do we rule over?
    Rev 2:26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations

    Zech 14 refers to surviving nations, context shows they are not believers, being under strict legalism after the day of the Lord :
    16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty

    Sure the flood is global, the judgements are global, but amill type universal death is not biblical. Rev 20 and many other verses are clear unbelieving nations live on after the great tribulation martyrdom by the beast. This concept of surviving nations is in many chapters of Ezekiel, in Isaiah, Zechariah etc etc

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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Unbelievers do physically survive. For them the comparison of universal judgement is to miss the resurrection.

    Us believers rule the nation's in future, if the nations are believers, who do we rule over?
    Rev 2:26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations

    Zech 14 refers to surviving nations, context shows they are not believers, being under strict legalism after the day of the Lord :
    16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty

    Sure the flood is global, the judgements are global, but amill type universal death is not biblical. Rev 20 and many other verses are clear unbelieving nations live on after the great tribulation martyrdom by the beast. This concept of surviving nations is in many chapters of Ezekiel, in Isaiah, Zechariah etc etc
    OK... here is what is the problem then, let me reword myself.

    If the flood is used in NT scripture as an example of judgement that will come, and a person states that the flood was not global... that means to follow that logic into the NT scriptures, the judgment will ALSO not be global. It is not about surviving, it is about EXPERIENCING the judgement.

    Some in this thread state the flood was not global, thus some of mankind NEVER experienced the punishment inflicted by God through a flood If that understanding is actually WHAT scripture is saying, then the NT scriptures must be saying the same.

    But we know that ALL of mankind (that are unbelievers) will experience judgement, there will be NO person who doesn't experience God's judgement... correct?

    If that is correct, then for Jesus, Peter, the writer of Hebrews to ref the flood in their exhortations about condemnation and judgement, if there were some unbelievers that didn't experience the flood, then that means the same for the NT exhortations.

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Unbelievers do physically survive. For them the comparison of universal judgement is to miss the resurrection.

    Us believers rule the nation's in future, if the nations are believers, who do we rule over?
    Rev 2:26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations

    Zech 14 refers to surviving nations, context shows they are not believers, being under strict legalism after the day of the Lord :
    16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty

    Sure the flood is global, the judgements are global, but amill type universal death is not biblical. Rev 20 and many other verses are clear unbelieving nations live on after the great tribulation martyrdom by the beast. This concept of surviving nations is in many chapters of Ezekiel, in Isaiah, Zechariah etc etc
    OK... here is what is the problem then, let me reword myself.

    If the flood is used in NT scripture as an example of judgement that will come, and a person states that the flood was not global... that means to follow that logic into the NT scriptures, the judgment will ALSO not be global. It is not about surviving, it is about EXPERIENCING the judgement.

    Some in this thread state the flood was not global, thus some of mankind NEVER experienced the punishment inflicted by God through a flood If that understanding is actually WHAT scripture is saying, then the NT scriptures must be saying the same.

    But we know that ALL of mankind (that are unbelievers) will experience judgement, there will be NO person who doesn't experience God's judgement... correct?

    If that is correct, then for Jesus, Peter, the writer of Hebrews to ref the flood in their exhortations about condemnation and judgement, if there were some unbelievers that didn't experience the flood, then that means the same for the NT exhortations.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    OK... here is what is the problem then, let me reword myself.

    If the flood is used in NT scripture as an example of judgement that will come, and a person states that the flood was not global... that means to follow that logic into the NT scriptures, the judgment will ALSO not be global. It is not about surviving, it is about EXPERIENCING the judgement.

    Some in this thread state the flood was not global, thus some of mankind NEVER experienced the punishment inflicted by God through a flood If that understanding is actually WHAT scripture is saying, then the NT scriptures must be saying the same.

    But we know that ALL of mankind (that are unbelievers) will experience judgement, there will be NO person who doesn't experience God's judgement... correct?

    If that is correct, then for Jesus, Peter, the writer of Hebrews to ref the flood in their exhortations about condemnation and judgement, if there were some unbelievers that didn't experience the flood, then that means the same for the NT exhortations.
    A symbol is never identical to what it represents. The global flood is a symbol of widespread judgement, and can be used as an example for any judgement. For example the nation's are judged at Jehosaphat, Edom becomes a burning area at the DOTL. So the flood is an effective symbol for disobedient nations burning up on the DOTL.

    Another example is the flood is used as a symbol of being left behind at the rapture in Matt 24:
    in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.

    It would then be wrong to say the flood symbol always has to equal global death, when not even Matthew 24 uses the flood symbol to equal global death. Matthew 24 uses the flood symbol for the judgement of being left behind. Symbols are not exact representations.

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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Originally Posted by DurbanDude

    It would then be wrong to say the flood symbol always has to equal global death, when not even Matthew 24 uses the flood symbol to equal global death. Matthew 24 uses the flood symbol for the judgement of being left behind. Symbols are not exact representations.
    Once again... the flood represents a totality of judgement. God said ALL of mankind was killed off as a result of judgement. So... YES, Mt 24 uses the flood as an example of judgement of those left behind but FOR those left behind, ALL will be affected.

    If the flood represents only SOME of mankind in the world, then that means only SOME of mankind left on the earth, will be affected. But we know that's not true, NONE will be unaffected by tribulation judgements, they will BE GLOBAL.

    The same as the flood was global.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

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    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Once again... the flood represents a totality of judgement. God said ALL of mankind was killed off as a result of judgement. So... YES, Mt 24 uses the flood as an example of judgement of those left behind but FOR those left behind, ALL will be affected.

    If the flood represents only SOME of mankind in the world, then that means only SOME of mankind left on the earth, will be affected. But we know that's not true, NONE will be unaffected by tribulation judgements, they will BE GLOBAL.

    The same as the flood was global.
    Yes most tribulation judgements are global. One that isn't global is the winepress /feast outside Jerusalem. All the attacking armies are destroyed there in Israel, locations being mainly the valley of Megiddo, the valley of Jehosaphat.

    Some nations around the globe are judged unworthy, like Edom which becomes a lake of fire, and some live on, like Israel.

    But although the judgements are widespread, there certainly will not be complete death of the unsaved, they live on after the second coming as described by multiple verses in the Bible.

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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Yes most tribulation judgements are global. One that isn't global is the winepress /feast outside Jerusalem. All the attacking armies are destroyed there in Israel, locations being mainly the valley of Megiddo, the valley of Jehosaphat.

    Some nations around the globe are judged unworthy, like Edom which becomes a lake of fire, and some live on, like Israel.

    But although the judgements are widespread, there certainly will not be complete death of the unsaved, they live on after the second coming as described by multiple verses in the Bible.
    Once again... not about "death." It's all about "judgement" and the judgement upon the "earth" (all under heaven) both during the flood AND the tribulation, will be global. This is WHY the NT exhorting of future judgement is reffed back to the SAME judgment during the flood, NO ONE was unaffected.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Once again... not about "death." It's all about "judgement" and the judgement upon the "earth" (all under heaven) both during the flood AND the tribulation, will be global. This is WHY the NT exhorting of future judgement is reffed back to the SAME judgment during the flood, NO ONE was unaffected.
    Sure everyone will be affected one way or another. For example the surviving nations all fall under the iron rod rule of Christ.

    Rev 2:27 Rev 19:15 and Psalm 2:9 all refer to this iron rod rule after the Day of the Lord.

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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Double post, deleting

    Originally Posted by DurbanDude Sure everyone will be affected one way or another. For example the surviving nations all fall under the iron rod rule of Christ.

    Rev 2:27 Rev 19:15 and Psalm 2:9 all refer to this iron rod rule after the Day of the Lord.
    The premise so far with these two threads is to point out that no all unbelievers will be affected in stating that the flood was not global. Every example of scripture in this thread points to the totality of global judgement = to the totality of the judgement that happened when the flood happened, global affect.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Originally Posted by DurbanDude Sure everyone will be affected one way or another. For example the surviving nations all fall under the iron rod rule of Christ.

    Rev 2:27 Rev 19:15 and Psalm 2:9 all refer to this iron rod rule after the Day of the Lord.

    The premise so far with these two threads is to point out that not all unbelievers will be affected in stating that the flood was not global. Every example of scripture in this thread points to the totality of global judgement = to the totality of the judgement that happened when the flood happened, global affect.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    The premise so far with these two threads is to point out that not all unbelievers will be affected in stating that the flood was not global. Every example of scripture in this thread points to the totality of global judgement = to the totality of the judgement that happened when the flood happened, global affect.
    That's not completely accurate. The premise I have is that the Flood had to be Local. I have no idea whether all of civilization at that time was located in the region of the Flood or not. The point is that a civilization had been affected with sin, and its sin had spread to such a degree that the civilization had come to be beyond redemption. Therefore, God committed the whole civilization to complete destruction.

    This theme runs again in the story of the Canaanites. The country had been affected by sin, and the sin got worse. It was only when the peoples of Canaan were so inundated with sin that they were beyond redemption that God committed the whole of them to destruction.

    Some were spared by acts of disobedience by the Israelites. Some became captives and were spared, due to their youth and relative innocence from the sins of their peoples. But the idea is the same. When sin inundates society to such an extent that virtually all are in agreement, then the entire society has to be destroyed. Lot went through such an experience, and had the only family relatively unaffected by this great social corruption.

    When we say that the story of the Flood then reflects upon the 2nd Coming, what society is then so corrupt that it will be utterly destroyed? It was said that *never again* would a Flood with such universal impact be used. But the story is still used, in principle, of a universal judgment by fire.

    The fact the Flood was never again to be used indicates that conditions no longer apply that applied in the time of the Flood. There are peoples across the earth who remain unaffected by sin that is beyond redemption. God will destroy nations across the earth at Armageddon, and this war will have global impact. But it will *not* be universal in application, such that *every human being* will be destroyed.

    As DD indicated, many people will survive Armageddon. But those who engage in irredeemable sin will have their societies and nations completely overthrown. That is, I believe, the message.

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    Question Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    That's not completely accurate. The premise I have is that the Flood had to be Local. I have no idea whether all of civilization at that time was located in the region of the Flood or not. The point is that a civilization had been affected with sin, and its sin had spread to such a degree that the civilization had come to be beyond redemption. Therefore, God committed the whole civilization to complete destruction.

    This theme runs again in the story of the Canaanites. The country had been affected by sin, and the sin got worse. It was only when the peoples of Canaan were so inundated with sin that they were beyond redemption that God committed the whole of them to destruction.

    Some were spared by acts of disobedience by the Israelites. Some became captives and were spared, due to their youth and relative innocence from the sins of their peoples. But the idea is the same. When sin inundates society to such an extent that virtually all are in agreement, then the entire society has to be destroyed. Lot went through such an experience, and had the only family relatively unaffected by this great social corruption.

    When we say that the story of the Flood then reflects upon the 2nd Coming, what society is then so corrupt that it will be utterly destroyed? It was said that *never again* would a Flood with such universal impact be used. But the story is still used, in principle, of a universal judgment by fire.

    The fact the Flood was never again to be used indicates that conditions no longer apply that applied in the time of the Flood. There are peoples across the earth who remain unaffected by sin that is beyond redemption. God will destroy nations across the earth at Armageddon, and this war will have global impact. But it will *not* be universal in application, such that *every human being* will be destroyed.

    As DD indicated, many people will survive Armageddon. But those who engage in irredeemable sin will have their societies and nations completely overthrown. That is, I believe, the message.

    Why do you think none of the children were saved during the flood or in Cannan ?

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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Originally Posted by randyk
    That's not completely accurate. The premise I have is that the Flood had to be Local. I have no idea whether all of civilization at that time was located in the region of the Flood or not. The point is that a civilization had been affected with sin, and its sin had spread to such a degree that the civilization had come to be beyond redemption. Therefore, God committed the whole civilization to complete destruction.

    This theme runs again in the story of the Canaanites. The country had been affected by sin, and the sin got worse. It was only when the peoples of Canaan were so inundated with sin that they were beyond redemption that God committed the whole of them to destruction.

    Some were spared by acts of disobedience by the Israelites. Some became captives and were spared, due to their youth and relative innocence from the sins of their peoples. But the idea is the same. When sin inundates society to such an extent that virtually all are in agreement, then the entire society has to be destroyed. Lot went through such an experience, and had the only family relatively unaffected by this great social corruption.

    When we say that the story of the Flood then reflects upon the 2nd Coming, what society is then so corrupt that it will be utterly destroyed? It was said that *never again* would a Flood with such universal impact be used. But the story is still used, in principle, of a universal judgment by fire.

    The fact the Flood was never again to be used indicates that conditions no longer apply that applied in the time of the Flood. There are peoples across the earth who remain unaffected by sin that is beyond redemption. God will destroy nations across the earth at Armageddon, and this war will have global impact. But it will *not* be universal in application, such that *every human being* will be destroyed.

    As DD indicated, many people will survive Armageddon. But those who engage in irredeemable sin will have their societies and nations completely overthrown. That is, I believe, the message.
    God's Word states that mankind and all animals (all that breathes) on all the earth UNDER heaven... will be punished (by death).

    You are stating "a" civilization died.

    God - all that breathes, mankind and animal, on all the earth under heaven.
    You - a civilization.

    I hold to what God is saying.

    Yes, DD indicated some survive but the lesson is about judgement and ALL will be affected by the judgements in relation to Jesus', Peter's and the writer of Hebrews exhorting of the flood to help us understand how globally, the judgement will affect.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    The premise so far with these two threads is to point out that not all unbelievers will be affected in stating that the flood was not global. Every example of scripture in this thread points to the totality of global judgement = to the totality of the judgement that happened when the flood happened, global affect.
    Yes you keep saying that. I believe the flood was global, however I dont believe the comparison has to be global, for example Sodom a local event, was also used as a symbol for the very same judgement:
    It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

    The rain of sulfur occurs to the attacking armies in Israel, not necessarily a global event.

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