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Thread: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

  1. #61

    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Judgment at Jesus's return can only be global, because Jesus said,

    this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. Mt.24:14

    If everyone will not be judged at Christ's coming, there's no point to the gospel being preached to the whole world. Jesus said,

    He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth. Lk.11:23

    Jesus doesn't teach that only people who point a rocket launcher at him are against him.

  2. #62
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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    Judgment at Jesus's return can only be global, because Jesus said,

    this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. Mt.24:14

    If everyone will not be judged at Christ's coming, there's no point to the gospel being preached to the whole world. Jesus said,

    He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth. Lk.11:23

    Jesus doesn't teach that only people who point a rocket launcher at him are against him.
    Where is the judgment when Jesus returns stated?

  3. #63
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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    What people fail to understand is that the flood was such a dramatic judgement, it can be used as a symbol for any event when God brings a dramatic judgement, whether that future judgement is worldwide or local.

    Some examples of dramatic judgements to come are as follows:

    1) the flood is compared to the rapture as per Matt 24:37-41

    2) the flood mentioned in 2 Peter 3 probably relates to the judgement of ungodly nations as per Matthew 25. Nations that treat the brethren badly are destroyed by fire, nations that treat the brethren well are blessed.

    3) there is a 3rd judgement of complete destruction at the second coming, that of all the armies attacking Jerusalem, which will be completely destroyed.

    Some here are trying to turn the comparison between the flood and 2nd coming judgement into an amill type complete destruction of the world which is contradicted by multiple verses.
    It imperative that the type of "judgment" that occurred in the flood, 70 AD and numerous others through the ages and beyond must be clarified as *punishment* so it doesn't confuse with the Throne Judgment.

  4. #64

    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Where is the judgment when Jesus returns stated?
    Right here,

    When the Son of man shall come IN HIS GLORY, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory And before him shall be gathered all nations Mt.25:31-32

    He's coming here with the glory he had before his great sacrifice. He's returning as God Almighty to judge the whole world that has already heard the gospel.

    If Jesus Christ is returning in glory he had before the world existed, to save people that don't know him, his sacrifice is meaningless. For God's sake, wake up.

  5. #65

    Cool Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    What people fail to understand is that the flood was such a dramatic judgement, it can be used as a symbol for any event when God brings a dramatic judgement, whether that future judgement is worldwide or local.

    Some examples of dramatic judgements to come are as follows:

    1) the flood is compared to the rapture as per Matt 24:37-41

    2) the flood mentioned in 2 Peter 3 probably relates to the judgement of ungodly nations as per Matthew 25. Nations that treat the brethren badly are destroyed by fire, nations that treat the brethren well are blessed.

    3) there is a 3rd judgement of complete destruction at the second coming, that of all the armies attacking Jerusalem, which will be completely destroyed.

    Some here are trying to turn the comparison between the flood and 2nd coming judgement into an amill type complete destruction of the world which is contradicted by multiple verses.
    I believe the scripture in 2 Peter 3:12 "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?" Is an instance of Peter having a vision of an atomic war. Elements melting with fervent heat is the way he described it.

    Those that use this scripture to produce an amill version of complete destruction are ignoring scripture that point to a remnant left alive from each nation.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    "Heaven and earth will pass away" appears to be a poetic way of saying history in the old age will pass, and be succeeded by a new age. This is how the Jews perceived the Hope of Israel, or the Hope of the Age to Come. The Messianic Age will bring a close to the old earth, and initiate a whole new earth.

    Many of us, including myself, believe that the new earth will partly begin in the Millennial Kingdom, but will be fully initiated at the end of the Millennium. I'm not really sure about this, however. It's just where I'm at now.

    I do believe that Armageddon will be a judgment "by fire" that involves a major earthly war, an internation war--an atomic war that impacts the whole earth. I say that because generals and armies are referenced in the book of Revelation. Certainly God will be behind it, orchestrating it. He will use angels to administer it, and people to cause it and participate in it. Whether or not God throws down special, supernatural fire from heaven I don't know. All I know is that a terrible judgment is waiting for the earth just prior to Christ's Coming.
    I see it the same as you do. The remake of the new heaven and new earth will be started by Christ during the millennial reign. There is scripture for that: Isaiah 65:17 "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."

    From there Isaiah goes on to describe the NHNE in verses 18-25. This can't be after the lake of fire as there are still people dying in verse 20.


    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Once again... not about "death." It's all about "judgement" and the judgement upon the "earth" (all under heaven) both during the flood AND the tribulation, will be global. This is WHY the NT exhorting of future judgement is reffed back to the SAME judgment during the flood, NO ONE was unaffected.
    Yet you are the one equating "judgment" with "death." Everybody living on earth will be affected by God coming tribulation, but they all are not dying. You have been given plenty of scriptures showing that.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  6. #66
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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    It imperative that the type of "judgment" that occurred in the flood, 70 AD and numerous others through the ages and beyond must be clarified as *punishment* so it doesn't confuse with the Throne Judgment.
    True, yes that Throne judgement occurs at the end of the millennium.

  7. #67
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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    I believe the scripture in 2 Peter 3:12 "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?" Is an instance of Peter having a vision of an atomic war. Elements melting with fervent heat is the way he described it.

    Those that use this scripture to produce an amill version of complete destruction are ignoring scripture that point to a remnant left alive from each nation.
    Well said. Yes 2 Peter 3 has very dramatic wording, but shouldn't be seen as the end of the world. A localized nuclear war could fit some parts of that dramatic description.

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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    OK... here is what is the problem then, let me reword myself.

    If the flood is used in NT scripture as an example of judgement that will come, and a person states that the flood was not global... that means to follow that logic into the NT scriptures, the judgment will ALSO not be global.
    The flood was physical judgment regarding the first death not the same judgment found at the white throne regarding the second death. You are mixing those together when they shouldn't be.

    The first death judgments, and there were more than one, were never global/universal.
    The second death judgment is singular, there will not be more than one, and it is global/universal as in all who are not in the book of life will be cast into the LOF for the second death.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  9. #69
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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    Right here,

    When the Son of man shall come IN HIS GLORY, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory And before him shall be gathered all nations Mt.25:31-32

    He's coming here with the glory he had before his great sacrifice. He's returning as God Almighty to judge the whole world that has already heard the gospel.

    If Jesus Christ is returning in glory he had before the world existed, to save people that don't know him, his sacrifice is meaningless. For God's sake, wake up.
    Amen.
    Yes he is coming as God Almighty.

    2Pet 3 - 13 commentary,
    3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.”



    What coming were the mockers referring to ?


    5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.


    Clearly the world God created with water in the beginning, was later destroyed by water, not just part of it.



    7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.



    Just as clearly the whole world is going to be judged by fire and all the ungodly destroyed., aka GWT - His coming like a thief - coming of the day of God as shown below...,


    8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

    10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

    11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!

    13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.


    act 17
    30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  10. #70
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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Oh I do think some may survive Armageddon. But if they do they will still face eternal judgment at their eternal sentencing, if they refuse to repent.
    The thing is they would have received the mark by the time of the end. All not in the book of life will have taken the mark. The time to repent is now not tomorrow after he comes again.



    All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.




    “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.



    And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


    Rev 14
    9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
    11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  11. #71
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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    The thing is they would have received the mark by the time of the end. All not in the book of life will have taken the mark. The time to repent is now not tomorrow after he comes again.



    All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.




    “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.



    And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


    Rev 14
    9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
    11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
    If everyone worships the beast, why does the whole world attack him at the end?

    The word for "earth" means ground/land, often a reference to a certain region. In context it means the greater Israel area. All who dwell in that region of the Middle East will worship the beast.

  12. #72
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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    If everyone worships the beast, why does the whole world attack him at the end?
    The whole world doesn't attack the beast. Only Christ and his army attack the beast and technically it only shows Christ attacking...his army might also but it isn't specified.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  13. #73

    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Amen.
    Yes he is coming as God Almighty.

    2Pet 3 - 13 commentary,
    3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.”



    What coming were the mockers referring to ?


    5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.


    Clearly the world God created with water in the beginning, was later destroyed by water, not just part of it.



    7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.



    Just as clearly the whole world is going to be judged by fire and all the ungodly destroyed., aka GWT - His coming like a thief - coming of the day of God as shown below...,


    8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

    10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

    11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!

    13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.


    act 17
    30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”
    Exactly right brother,

    I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom 2Tim.4:1

    Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 1Pet.4:5

    It would be unkind not to speak the truth. The truth is, people who teach that unrepentant sinners who don't know the Lord may still get saved after Jesus returns are preaching another gospel. Salvation is only by in Jesus now, not later when he appears in glory.

  14. #74
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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    Exactly right brother,

    I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom 2Tim.4:1

    Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 1Pet.4:5

    It would be unkind not to speak the truth. The truth is, people who teach that unrepentant sinners who don't know the Lord may still get saved after Jesus returns are preaching another gospel. Salvation is only by in Jesus now, not later when he appears in glory.

    Claiming salvation does not exist after the second coming is unscriptural and is not part of the gospel.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  15. #75
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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The whole world doesn't attack the beast. Only Christ and his army attack the beast and technically it only shows Christ attacking...his army might also but it isn't specified.
    The whole world invades Israel. During that time Israel is in sin, and the antichrist rules over Israel. This is what happens before the resurrection:

    He will also invade the Beautiful Land. Many countries will fall, but Edom, Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from his hand. 42 He will extend his power over many countries; Egypt will not escape. 43 He will gain control of the treasures of gold and silver and all the riches of Egypt, with the Libyans and Cu****es[e] in submission. 44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many. 45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at[f] the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him. At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

    We know he comes to power in Israel as per 2 Thess 2. He dies in Israel. He invades the "beautiful land".

    We know Israel is in sin when the armies from the more distant lands invade Israel, Joel 2 is pretty clear on that. Jesus warns us about false Jewish leaders (Messiah) during the tribulation.

    The "ge" of the beast is the Middle East, it is there that everyone will worship him.

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