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Thread: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

  1. #91
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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    Then why are you arguing? Since Jesus judges the living and the dead at his appearing, the time of repentance is ended.
    Jesus judges the living and dead Christians at his coming, the rest of the dead and the rest of the living mortals are judged a thousand years later. That's why salvation doesn't end at the second coming.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  2. #92
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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    It's hard to have faith in the unseen, when Jesus is actually seen in person.
    Like I said, faith isn't needed for salvation when Jesus is actually seen in person. I gave a similar example of Saul who didn't have faith but was saved because he met with Christ and converted without the need of faith.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  3. #93
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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Like I said, faith isn't needed for salvation when Jesus is actually seen in person. I gave a similar example of Saul who didn't have faith but was saved because he met with Christ and converted without the need of faith.
    One still has to have faith that those visions or dreams are from God, when one wakes up and the reality is that Jesus can no longer be seen. After witnessing miracles, some people even start to doubt that it was God doing miracles, passing it off as communal hysteria and all sorts of deception. This can't happen in the millenial world when Jesus is seen, there is no room for doubt. I don't see us agreeing on this topic, but thanks for the exchange of ideas.

  4. #94

    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Jesus judges the living and dead Christians at his coming, the rest of the dead and the rest of the living mortals are judged a thousand years later. That's why salvation doesn't end at the second coming.
    That's not possible, because salvation is by faith alone. Your belief that the Apostles weren't saved by faith because they saw Jesus isn't true. The just live by faith.

    As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Gal.1:9

  5. #95

    Cool Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    One still has to have faith that those visions or dreams are from God, when one wakes up and the reality is that Jesus can no longer be seen. After witnessing miracles, some people even start to doubt that it was God doing miracles, passing it off as communal hysteria and all sorts of deception. This can't happen in the millenial world when Jesus is seen, there is no room for doubt. I don't see us agreeing on this topic, but thanks for the exchange of ideas.
    I am going to ask you a question to hopefully get you thinking on it. are you sure Jesus is going to be visible (seen) during the millennial reign. I don't think we have enough information on that.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  6. #96
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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    I am going to ask you a question to hopefully get you thinking on it. are you sure Jesus is going to be visible (seen) during the millennial reign. I don't think we have enough information on that.
    That is a good question, but I am sure Jesus will be seen. For example it's not in a dream or vision, but in reality that the whole world sees the Lord on the day of wrath as described in Zech 14 and in Revelation 6. Rev 11 describes Jesus ruling over the kingdoms. And we will become supernatural beings with resurrection bodies, we rule with Jesus from then on, confirmed in Daniel 7, Rev 2. So certainly the nations will be exposed to the continued reality of God from the DOTL and onwards.

    I'm not one to preach further chances of salvation but I do admit that there will be books opened at the end of the millennium and all those not resurrected at the first resurrection will be judged then. Will that be a moment of faith for the nations at the end of the millennium, when Satan is released and deceives the nations? Will some resist and remain faithful to God and earn salvation through faith then at that war? The fact that there is a book of names hints at that possibility.

    Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

  7. #97

    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    I am going to ask you a question to hopefully get you thinking on it. are you sure Jesus is going to be visible (seen) during the millennial reign. I don't think we have enough information on that.
    He's not seen during the "thousand years", because he reigns in our hearts, defeating his enemies in battle.

    People wait for Christ to come and put an end to evil, but forget that they (we) were evil. This is one reason why theologians have made a mess of the scriptures. They talk of Christ defeating his enemies and forget they (we) were his enemies. Christ himself defeated death (the last enemy) and death is defeated for us by faith in him,

    The one who believes in me will live even if he dies, and the one who lives and believes in me will never die. Jn.11:25-26

    This is how Christs reign, living by faith, comes to an end (when the thousand years are finished).

    For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1Cor.15:25-26

    So death is defeated by faith in Christ, but isn't seen by the unrepentant until believers are "subjected" to Christ (receive new bodies}.

    And when all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all. 1Cor.15:28

    Paul is teaching that we will see Jesus as he truly is, as God.

  8. #98
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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    That is a good question, but I am sure Jesus will be seen. For example it's not in a dream or vision, but in reality that the whole world sees the Lord on the day of wrath as described in Zech 14 and in Revelation 6. Rev 11 describes Jesus ruling over the kingdoms. And we will become supernatural beings with resurrection bodies, we rule with Jesus from then on, confirmed in Daniel 7, Rev 2. So certainly the nations will be exposed to the continued reality of God from the DOTL and onwards.

    I'm not one to preach further chances of salvation but I do admit that there will be books opened at the end of the millennium and all those not resurrected at the first resurrection will be judged then. Will that be a moment of faith for the nations at the end of the millennium, when Satan is released and deceives the nations? Will some resist and remain faithful to God and earn salvation through faith then at that war? The fact that there is a book of names hints at that possibility.

    Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
    I tend to agree with this position. Jesus will likely be seen. But whether he will remain on earth in his physical body is open to question for me.

    Whether the glorified church will remain on earth in our physical bodies is open to question for me. If the earth is to continue, as is, replete with mortal mankind, for another 1000 years, at the end of which sin will, once again, mature, then my assumption is that glorified people and mortal people, tainted with sin, do not mix well.

    Therefore, I consider it possible that Christ and the Church will somehow make an appearance at the 2nd Coming, merely to establish Christian rule on earth. But it may not be until the end of the Millennium that physical New Jerusalem actually descends from heaven to the earth. It's an open question for me.

  9. #99
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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I tend to agree with this position. Jesus will likely be seen. But whether he will remain on earth in his physical body is open to question for me.

    Whether the glorified church will remain on earth in our physical bodies is open to question for me. If the earth is to continue, as is, replete with mortal mankind, for another 1000 years, at the end of which sin will, once again, mature, then my assumption is that glorified people and mortal people, tainted with sin, do not mix well.

    Therefore, I consider it possible that Christ and the Church will somehow make an appearance at the 2nd Coming, merely to establish Christian rule on earth. But it may not be until the end of the Millennium that physical New Jerusalem actually descends from heaven to the earth. It's an open question for me.
    The way I see it, is we do mix, with us as rulers. Possibly like angels with access to both heaven and earth.

    There isn't a lot of information in this regard, but Rev 2:26 says we will rule over the nations. Daniel 7 says the power and greatness of these worldly kingdoms will be given to us.

    More specifically the apostles are told directly by Jesus that they will rule over the Jewish tribes in Matt 19:28

    Rev 20 places a "camp of the saints" in Jerusalem, it seems our primary dwelling in rooms/mansions is in the NJ, yet we have a "camp" here on earth.

    1 Cor 6:2 says we will judge the world (context being disputes between people)

    I think there is just enough information there to be sure that at least some of us will be here ruling and judging earth's inhabitants. Whether it's in a temporary capacity or not, the text doesn't say.

  10. #100
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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    The way I see it, is we do mix, with us as rulers. Possibly like angels with access to both heaven and earth.

    There isn't a lot of information in this regard, but Rev 2:26 says we will rule over the nations. Daniel 7 says the power and greatness of these worldly kingdoms will be given to us.

    More specifically the apostles are told directly by Jesus that they will rule over the Jewish tribes in Matt 19:28

    Rev 20 places a "camp of the saints" in Jerusalem, it seems our primary dwelling in rooms/mansions is in the NJ, yet we have a "camp" here on earth.

    1 Cor 6:2 says we will judge the world (context being disputes between people)

    I think there is just enough information there to be sure that at least some of us will be here ruling and judging earth's inhabitants. Whether it's in a temporary capacity or not, the text doesn't say.
    Yes, it's an open question for me. We will come to establish Christian rule on earth--perhaps something like the angels may be doing now. But I don't personally think we will remain here in our physical bodies. I think that will await the end of the Millennium, when the New Earth appears and when the New Jerusalem descends from heaven.

    The "camp of the saints" may refer to mortal Christians who are born in and live during the Millennial Age.

  11. #101
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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, it's an open question for me. We will come to establish Christian rule on earth--perhaps something like the angels may be doing now. But I don't personally think we will remain here in our physical bodies. I think that will await the end of the Millennium, when the New Earth appears and when the New Jerusalem descends from heaven.

    The "camp of the saints" may refer to mortal Christians who are born in and live during the Millennial Age.
    That's kinda the discussion we are having, are there such a thing as "Christians" during the millennial age? The saved get resurrected, no longer mortals. But of the mortals, all of them are aware of the second coming, it's the end of the world, and Jesus takes rule of the nations.

    The nations all come to Jerusalem every year. The knowledge of God is widespread. I don't think we can have such a classification as "Christian" in that environment. What do you think?

  12. #102
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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Yes you keep saying that. I believe the flood was global, however I dont believe the comparison has to be global, for example Sodom a local event, was also used as a symbol for the very same judgement:
    It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

    The rain of sulfur occurs to the attacking armies in Israel, not necessarily a global event.
    Yes... thus why S/G can be used in this sense, when judgement happened how many unrighteous were unaffected?

    None, they all got creamed by the fire/brimstone. With the flood, the scriptures show globally all unrighteous were affected by the judgement. With S/G, all were affected by the judgement.

    Thus why BOTH the flood and S/G are used as refs concerning the NT scriptures related to this thread. NONE are unaffected... but this thread is trying/attempting to say that some unrighteous will be unaffected.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  13. #103
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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Yes... thus why S/G can be used in this sense, when judgement happened how many unrighteous were unaffected?
    Globally most of the unrighteous were unaffected (killed). Even cities not too far from S/G were "unaffected".


    None, they all got creamed by the fire/brimstone. With the flood, the scriptures show globally all unrighteous were affected by the judgement. With S/G, all were affected by the judgement.
    Only targeted people were affected. The flood, S/G, and the second coming all show a targeted people who are killed, not a global killing. The flood has just been misunderstood for a long time.


    Thus why BOTH the flood and S/G are used as refs concerning the NT scriptures related to this thread. NONE are unaffected... but this thread is trying/attempting to say that some unrighteous will be unaffected.
    We know for a fact that S/G and the second coming will end with some unrighteous still alive. Around the world, the fire of S/G did not kill unrighteous people, and we know Christ and his saints will rule over people who were not saved by the time of the second coming. Both example have survivors so why would the flood be any different? It's not. It was larger in scale than S/G but not anymore global than it or the killing of the second coming.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  14. #104
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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Yes... thus why S/G can be used in this sense, when judgement happened how many unrighteous were unaffected?

    None, they all got creamed by the fire/brimstone. With the flood, the scriptures show globally all unrighteous were affected by the judgement. With S/G, all were affected by the judgement.

    Thus why BOTH the flood and S/G are used as refs concerning the NT scriptures related to this thread. NONE are unaffected... but this thread is trying/attempting to say that some unrighteous will be unaffected.
    I'm sure everyone agrees everyone will be affected at the second coming. Amills claim complete annihilation of everyone, a complete destruction.

    Premills differ in the complete annihilation, this doesn't mean they won't all be affected. They will all be affected by being left behind at the rapture, which is a worse destruction than death, it's missing out on eternal life.

  15. #105
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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Originally Posted by DurbanDude

    I'm sure everyone agrees everyone will be affected at the second coming. Amills claim complete annihilation of everyone, a complete destruction.

    Premills differ in the complete annihilation, this doesn't mean they won't all be affected. They will all be affected by being left behind at the rapture, which is a worse destruction than death, it's missing out on eternal life.


    Your response continues to show an avoidance of how Jesus, Peter and the writer of Hebrews utilize the examples of the flood and S/G concerning the totality of judgement upon unbelievers. For the flood relation, ALL of mankind not SOME of mankind was affected. How? The flood was global. For S/G ALL of the unrighteous was affected, not SOME in the city.

    To say that the flood was not global and ALL unrighteousness was affected, is to CHANGE the meaning of the scriptures in relation to the NT verses.

    The NT verses are actually PROOF that the flood was global (which I understand you agree with in that the flood was global). Help those who DON'T understand that the flood was global by pointing out the relation of the NT verses in reffing the OT examples.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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