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Thread: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

  1. #106
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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Globally most of the unrighteous were unaffected (killed). Even cities not too far from S/G were "unaffected".
    S/G is not about global. The ref to S/G is that NONE of the unrighteous were unaffected.



    Only targeted people were affected.
    OK, I can agree with this statement.

    The flood, S/G, and the second coming all show a targeted people who are killed, not a global killing. The flood has just been misunderstood for a long time.
    Negative, because is not about "killing," it's all about judgement. ALL unrighteous will be affected in ALL the examples. During the flood, all died and in the city all died, meaning... all were affected. The same with all the judgements in the future, ALL will be affected. Again, not about killing.

    We know for a fact that S/G and the second coming will end with some unrighteous still alive.
    But this does not mean they will be unaffected by judgments. That's what you seem to be missing in the relation in the NT verses reffing the OT verses.

    Around the world, the fire of S/G did not kill unrighteous people,
    Concerning a city, the world isn't the context. The context in relation to judgment however is 100% in city were affected.

    and we know Christ and his saints will rule over people who were not saved by the time of the second coming.
    Yes.
    Both example have survivors so why would the flood be any different?
    Because of all the verses I posted in either thread AND, by God saying He will start OVER with Noah and his family... isn't a lie. If ALL human life on earth continued in other areas, then God isn't started over... with Noah and his family.

    It's not. It was larger in scale than S/G but not anymore global than it or the killing of the second coming.
    I'll let you re-state this....
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

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    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Your response continues to show an avoidance of how Jesus, Peter and the writer of Hebrews utilize the examples of the flood and S/G concerning the totality of judgement upon unbelievers. For the flood relation, ALL of mankind not SOME of mankind was affected. How? The flood was global. For S/G ALL of the unrighteous was affected, not SOME in the city.

    To say that the flood was not global and ALL unrighteousness was affected, is to CHANGE the meaning of the scriptures in relation to the NT verses.

    The NT verses are actually PROOF that the flood was global (which I understand you agree with in that the flood was global). Help those who DON'T understand that the flood was global by pointing out the relation of the NT verses in reffing the OT examples.
    We have been through this all already. Matt 24 compares being left behind, with the flood. It does not even hint at bodily destruction. So you have to look at context.

    The flood was a dramatic judgement and so it's a good example/symbol for any other dramatic judgement, simple as that. Whether it's a local flood, or as we agree a global flood, it's a good symbol of God's wrath. We can only know what is being compared if we read context. I don't see your universal physical death = universal physical death comparison in the text.

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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Originally Posted by DurbanDude

    We have been through this all already. Matt 24 compares being left behind, with the flood. It does not even hint at bodily destruction. So you have to look at context.

    I am, once again... the context is about judgement and the extent OF judgement. Do all unbelievers get affected in all the examples, yes. Do any escape judgement in any of the examples, no.
    The flood was a dramatic judgement and so it's a good example/symbol for any other dramatic judgement, simple as that.

    But the simplicity of global judgement changes when people begin to teach that "some" unrighteous escaped.
    Whether it's a local flood, or as we agree a global flood, it's a good symbol of God's wrath.

    Correct, as long as ALL unrighteous are affected and NONE escape.
    We can only know what is being compared if we read context. I don't see your universal physical death = universal physical death comparison in the text.

    Ummm, judgement. Death is just an effect that affects the unrighteous.

    That is the problem, some think people escape judgement because they are living, no... the are still affected. During endtimes, the unrighteous will deal with multiple forms of judgement, some will survive BUT, but NONE will escape.

    And that is the premise of this thread in the misunderstanding, by saying some escape to live another day. NO... all unrighteous 100% of them are affected. If the flood allowed some unrighteous in the world to be unaffected, then Jesus', Peter's and the writer of Hebrews message is some will escape the coming judgements. If any unrighteous in S/G were unaffected, then their message is again, some will escape judgement.

    But NONE will escape, just as none escapes back during the flood and none escaped that city.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    S/G is not about global. The ref to S/G is that NONE of the unrighteous were unaffected.
    Yes many unrighteous were unaffected. Unrighteous people lived all through the planet but they weren't the targets that day. Same goes for the flood.



    Negative, because is not about "killing," it's all about judgement.
    The judgment was the first death so yes it was about killing.


    ALL unrighteous will be affected in ALL the examples.
    In every example some unrighteous were left alive.


    During the flood, all died and in the city all died
    Better stated, During the flood, all died IN THE AREA OF THE FLOOD, and in the city all died. Both are localized and targeted killings. In other places the fire and waters did not take place because those further places were not targets.



    But this does not mean they will be unaffected by judgments.
    I'm talking aboutr who God wanted to kill and who he did not want to kill. In the flood, fire and second coming God does not kill all the unrighteous.


    Concerning a city, the world isn't the context.
    It was to the ones who survived...but they were wrong about all the world being killed just as some are wrong the flood killed everyone.

    Gen 19:30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
    Gen 19:31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

    The context in relation to judgment however is 100% in city were affected.
    Yes and 100 percent of the people in the flood zone were "affected"..."affected" being a pretty mild word for killed which is what happened.


    Because of all the verses I posted in either thread AND, by God saying He will start OVER with Noah and his family... isn't a lie. If ALL human life on earth continued in other areas, then God isn't started over... with Noah and his family.
    It's still a starting over in the area of the world where the flood killed everyone. A limited area just like the cities of Lot were limited areas.



    I'll let you re-state this....
    Ok.


    "It's not. It was larger in scale than S/G but not anymore global than it or the killing of the second coming. "
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    It's still a starting over in the area of the world where the flood killed everyone. A limited area just like the cities of Lot were limited areas.
    can we focus here then, 1 question... do you value any commentary offered by theologians/scholars?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    It's still a starting over in the area of the world where the flood killed everyone. A limited area just like the cities of Lot were limited areas.
    can we focus here then, 1 question... do you value any commentary offered by theologians/scholars?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    can we focus here then, 1 question... do you value any commentary offered by theologians/scholars?
    They are just opinions. Sometimes they are right, sometimes wrong. Remember scripture says knowledge will be increased so we have to understand the early church etc were limited in that sense and by the times they lived in whereas we live so much further into the future and knowledge has increased.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    I am, once again... the context is about judgement and the extent OF judgement. Do all unbelievers get affected in all the examples, yes. Do any escape judgement in any of the examples, no.



    But the simplicity of global judgement changes when people begin to teach that "some" unrighteous escaped.



    Correct, as long as ALL unrighteous are affected and NONE escape.



    Ummm, judgement. Death is just an effect that affects the unrighteous.

    That is the problem, some think people escape judgement because they are living, no... the are still affected. During endtimes, the unrighteous will deal with multiple forms of judgement, some will survive BUT, but NONE will escape.

    And that is the premise of this thread in the misunderstanding, by saying some escape to live another day. NO... all unrighteous 100% of them are affected. If the flood allowed some unrighteous in the world to be unaffected, then Jesus', Peter's and the writer of Hebrews message is some will escape the coming judgements. If any unrighteous in S/G were unaffected, then their message is again, some will escape judgement.

    But NONE will escape, just as none escapes back during the flood and none escaped that city.
    Yes I agree with you here. All are affected one way or another. The judgement is not always death, but still the judgment is global.

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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Yes I agree with you here. All are affected one way or another. The judgement is not always death, but still the judgment is global.
    Hooah, now we just have to help both Randy and Ewq understand what the scriptures are saying.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  9. #114
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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    They are just opinions. Sometimes they are right, sometimes wrong. Remember scripture says knowledge will be increased so we have to understand the early church etc were limited in that sense and by the times they lived in whereas we live so much further into the future and knowledge has increased.
    Can you post any commentary (I assume you will say is correct then) about the flood not being global?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    In the discussions about the Universal Flood vs. the Local Flood I argue that universal language does not always convey a global experience. It is the same here. The use of universal language with respect to taking the mark of the Beast is actually focused on a smaller context than every individual on the planet.

    I believe the Beast's Empire will, biblically, involve only Europe, and consist of 10 nations, which have arisen out of the old Roman civilization. As such, those who take the mark of the beast are those who reside *within the empire of the Beast."

    Rev 13
    7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.
    8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

    9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
    10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

    Only those who have believed and accepted the Gospel get their names into the book of life.




    The world that God created through water. was later destroyed by water.
    2Pet 3.
    5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.


    That suggests all of it.


    God saved Noah and his household out of the ancient world. 8 people.

    21 All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; 22 of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died.
    23 Thus He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark.



    All others with breath in their nostrils had gone astray, The flood caught up with them wherever they were.

    Noah spent around 100 years building an ark to ensure his families survival. Might have been easier to walk away from a local area flood, but no ,that clearly wasnt an option.


    It was clearly the worst catastrophe ever to hit mankind, which is why Jesus compares his coming to it.

    Matt 24
    21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.


    29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.


    35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
    36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.


    Every eye on the planet will see Jesus come in his glory and as it was in Noahs day only the righteous are saved to inherit the NHNE

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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Rev 13
    7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.
    8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
    You've completely ignored my point. My point, once again, is that there is a qualifier here. The intent is to show the universality of this experience, and yet without requiring absolute determination as to whether every individual on earth falls into A category or into B category. Not everybody on earth takes the mark the Beast--they are not all A category. There are those who will not take the mark of the Beast who are Christians. There are others who do not take the mark of the Beast who are not excluded from the Lamb's book of life--they have not yet been converted to Christianity.

    Authority over all nations does not mean the Beast's empire is world-wide--it just means his empire goes unchallenged. For 1260 days his rule is absolute on earth, and nobody can stop him from exercising his authority, except that he cannot destroy the 2 prophets until their testimony is completed. But militarily, he is unstoppable.

    Because of his dominance in the name of human liberties, the people of the world admire and worship him. They too want freedom from God, and freedom to be an independent, autonomous Man. This blanket statement does not mean that every individual is of this nature--rather, the implication is that across the whole earth there will be people like this, who will worship him, wanting freedom from God. The implication is that all of the "citizens of the world," who belong to Satan's Kingdom, will adore him. This does not mean that there aren't people who are not "citizens of the world," including both Christians and non-Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder
    9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
    10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

    Only those who have believed and accepted the Gospel get their names into the book of life.
    Where is this said? For example, why would you exclude people on earth who are ignorant of the Gospel from *later* having their names put into the book of life? Wouldn't they avoid being "all those who dwell on earth, whose names are omitted from the Lamb's book of life?" Wouldn't, for example, there be infants and little children who are utterly ignorant of the things of God, who can later, after Christ's Coming, be included in the Lamb's book of life?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder
    The world that God created through water. was later destroyed by water.
    2Pet 3.
    5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.


    That suggests all of it.
    No, it doesn't. It suggests that the whole earth was created. But it does not suggest that the whole earth was destroyed--only that Noah's entire civilization was destroyed.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder
    God saved Noah and his household out of the ancient world. 8 people.
    He was saved out of his own civilization. I have no idea if that included all peoples on earth, or just one civilization. The point is, the civilization Noah was part of was completely wicked, and had to be completely destroyed.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder
    21 All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; 22 of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died.
    23 Thus He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark.
    This universal terminology has to be applied as understood by primitive man. You are reading "planet" where the Scriptures say, "the whole world." The "whole word," to primitive man, was a complete region, stretching as far as the eye could see. It included, as well, an entire civilization, or empire. There was no thought of "the other side of the planet." The earth was the ground beneath their feet. If that ground was completely covered, as far as the eye could see, then the waters of the Flood "covered the whole earth," and "all the land under the heaven," and killed "all the animals" of that region.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder
    All others with breath in their nostrils had gone astray, The flood caught up with them wherever they were.

    Noah spent around 100 years building an ark to ensure his families survival. Might have been easier to walk away from a local area flood, but no ,that clearly wasnt an option.
    The basin containing Noah's civilization was undoubtedly very large, and nobody was able to escape once the Flood waters poured in. It wasn't just rain--it was also the earth breaking up, perhaps allowing the ocean to pour in to these lowlands. It undoubtedly covered "all the mountains" within that basin, which no doubt were smaller hills, like foothills. When the ark drifted towards the Ararat Range, the ark landed on the higher foothills, in order to later descend to the plains.

    If the highest peaks had been covered, there would've had to have been 8 x the amount of water currently on the earth. This would've mixed fresh and salt water, and would've buried most sea life beneath tons of water that would destroy not just it but also the food necessary to sustain that life.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder
    It was clearly the worst catastrophe ever to hit mankind, which is why Jesus compares his coming to it.
    Covering a very large lowland region with an enormous Flood would certainly destroy all plant and animal life, including insects, fish, and birds. All the varieties of animal life could not be sustained on the ark, but only local animals, representing the fact God did not wish to destroy all life on earth. The habitats necessary to sustain all this diverse life, and the foods needed, were well beyond the ability of Noah to provide for, if you think he saved every single species of life on earth! Even the temperature ranges are different for different species of life.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder
    Matt 24
    21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
    This is, I believe, a reference to the fact ungodly men in the present age have tried to stamp out, or commit genocide against, the Jewish People. At the time Jesus said this, the "elect" were the Jewish People. It did not refer to "all life on earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder
    29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

    35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
    36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
    The "passing of heaven and earth" are a poetic way of saying there will be a transition to a new earth. The universe will not really pass away in the sense of annihilation. God said the earth is forever. You can find that in the Psalms. The earth's sky will "roll up like a scroll." This should tell you that this is symbolic poetry, indicating that God's purpose will be fulfilled, and the old order will be dissolved. The current evil rulers in the heaven will be brought down.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder
    Every eye on the planet will see Jesus come in his glory and as it was in Noahs day only the righteous are saved to inherit the NHNE
    "Every eye" means that all of mankind in the present age will see the transition to a new age. They will, in some way, see the Lord's Coming. I won't pretend to know what this means. But in this case, this will certainly include everybody. Here the context is truly universal, without any qualifier.

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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Can you post any commentary (I assume you will say is correct then) about the flood not being global?
    Any? Of course...there are many who know the flood wasn't global. This is part of the knowledge increasing which scholars of the distant past were not given.


    http://www.oldearth.org/morton/global_flood.htm

    There's more, this was just the first one that came up on google.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Any? Of course...there are many who know the flood wasn't global. This is part of the knowledge increasing which scholars of the distant past were not given.


    http://www.oldearth.org/morton/global_flood.htm

    There's more, this was just the first one that came up on google.
    I don't personally put a lot of stock in the search engines. Quite often the initial results will be biased in a certain direction, depending on how the search results are obtained. You really have to dig deep to get the real picture.

    For example, if your interest is in Christian Fundamentalism you may search for evidence for an Old Earth, and come up with a number of disputations insulting the Old Earth position. This happened to me.

    If you try to find material on the Local Flood you may find a number of disputations and insults directed towards the Local Flood position. It all depends on how the Search Engine produces results. If you can manage to be very, very specific you may get more balanced positions.

    When I looked up the Local Flood belief, I got a lot of anti-Local Flood rants.

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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, it doesn't. It suggests that the whole earth was created. But it does not suggest that the whole earth was destroyed--only that Noah's entire civilization was destroyed.
    I see no split in civilizations in Noah day. 10 generations all speaking the same language before the flood.
    Cain was cast away to another outer land ,so all the ungodly on the planet were destroyed.

    He was saved out of his own civilization. I have no idea if that included all peoples on earth, or just one civilization. The point is, the civilization Noah was part of was completely wicked, and had to be completely destroyed.
    How did God determine different civilizations when all came from Adam? God only determined Noah as righteous in his civilization , so what do you think would become of any others?
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: universal judgment at Christ's Coming

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't personally put a lot of stock in the search engines.
    It depends on how you search.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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