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Thread: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

  1. #16
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    One last note...

    In the OT, a wife could not choose to divorce her husband. Why do we think we are the ones that can choose to divorce our husband, Jesus Christ? Now, the husband could put away the wife.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  2. #17

    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Well I think there are several ideas being tossed out here, but we need to put things into context. As an example I saw John 10:28 used about the sheep her his voice and they have eternal life and will not be snatched out of his hand.

    1. This can't apply to us currently.... do we have eternal life currently? Nope, we still die, Eternal life is given on Judgement day... so the statement in John 10:28 is after Judgement his sheep will have eternal life and no one can take them, as at that time they'll be claimed. So this passage can't be in the now, since we are still of mortal bodies and can perish and die...

    2. The NT is full of warnings, lets just notice a few:

    Galatians 5:1-6 - We see that there is a set warning for those who try to be justified by the law, that they have fallen from Grace, this goes back to those in Acts 15 who was trying to bind Jewish law to Gentiles and others when it was no longer needed. This noting here in Galatians that if you are trying to be Justified of the law, then you have fallen from grace, and Christ profits you nothing, or your relationship with Christ is finished depending on your translation. So here is an example of falling.

    The entire book of Hebrews - the book of Hebrews is written to Jewish Christians who are thinking about turning back to Judaism. At no point does the writer ever state oh well you were never Christians, or well you were never really saved.... nope doesn't happen. He notes multiple times throughout the book that they have tasted the gift, they have seen the better covenant. Heb 6 is noting they they haven't grown from their first attempt of obeying the gospel. They should be teachers, yet need to be taught again. He never tells them they were never saved... no they are, and they need to stay on the path. The whole book is explaining them them, that we have a better covenant, a better high priest, a better promise, a better everything. Heb 10:24-31 goes over a lot of this noting how we need to encourage one another however if you leave Christ there is no other sacrifice for sin and if you leave it you're out of luck.

    I mean the whole book of Hebrews is basically written to Christians who are thinking about turning away... and not once was it ever stated that they never obeyed the gospel or never was really a Christian... etc... nope they were and the writer was appealing to them to stay that way.

    Those who are saved are written in the book of life... we now that, Revelation notes those written in the book went into life eternal and those not there was cast into the lake of Fire. Rev 20:11-15 Basic stuff... however ones name can be written in the book of life, the saved but then removed. See Rev 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." We see here that Jesus notes those saints in the churches he mentioned earlier in Chapter 2 are in that book of life... if they overcome awesome they will be clothed in white raiment and will get the reward. Those who don't overcome what happens... whoops they get erased or blotted out of the book... and per Rev 20 those not in there go to the lake of fire... why would Rev mention Jesus erasing people from that book of the saved if they can't be lost... can't say they were never saved, or wasn't really a Christian... because at some point they were or they wouldn't have been in the book to start with....

    Lastly look at Paul in 1st Cor 9:24-27 Paul uses the idea of running a race so that we might obtain our prize... but if we are all saved and can't fall if we enter the race we auto win right????? Well in verse 27 Paul notes that isn't the case at all, runners who started the race could be disqualified... or loose the race... thus no prize.... hmmmm yep no auto win... and they were runners, so it wasn't like they were never a runner....

    There are countless other passages where Paul warns of falling from grace, loosing the race, and other similar methods of describing this...

    The best one I can think of is 2 Peter 2:22 "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud." Thus a Sow can be made clean or a dog... however they can return to their vomit or mud if they so desire... however that whole book of Hebrews covers this... but once washed clean we can return to the mud....

    As 1 John 1:5-10 states "...If we walk in the light as he is in the light he cleanses us from all sin." So we have to continue that walk if we stop walking then we are no longer going to be washed clean.

  3. #18
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by hobie View Post
    Some believe that once you decide to be saved you can never choose to be lost again, it is irrevocable on your part. When you accept Jesus as your Saviour, it will be the final choice you will ever make about your eternal destiny. If you change your mind later and repudiate your decision, it will be too late, nothing can change it. No matter how deeply and sincerely you desire to be lost and repent of your repentance, you cannot escape from eternal life. No amount of bitter rebellion, deliberate blasphemy, or iniquitous living can change that once-for-all decision to be saved.

    Is this what the Bible teaches or could it be that maybe salvation is not predicated upon only one irrevocable act or choice of the past, but upon a continuous, personal relationship of the believer with Christ
    I'm a Predestinarian, but also believe in Free Choice. So your question is replete with problems over semantics for me personally. Can a truly "eternally saved" person ever *lose* his eternal salvation? That is a logical contradiction. If he was "eternally saved" at all, he cannot end up only having been "temporarily saved."

    So the question is, can a person really be "eternally saved" at all, before death? Or, is "eternal salvation" only after death, at the resurrection?

    I personally believe that Jesus said we can receive "eternal salvation" now, well before we die. We can thus "never die," and know that. However, what complicates this is that people can have the "knowledge of salvation" without actually being "saved." People can convert to Christianity and believe in Christ, and can even have spiritual experience of Christ, without being saved.

    This is the more controversial point: What truly makes a person "eternally saved?" This thread would better go in this direction, to avoid the semantical difficulties.

  4. #19
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    The popular 'once saved, forever saved' propagated by many will lead some to the lake of fire. The scriptures speak about enduring in Christ to the end, but there are Christians who believe that being saved (I have heard some throw in "eternally" saved for good measure) is a get out of jail free card that allows them to live as they please. And I'm talking about lifestyle and conducts that are uncharacteristic and unbecoming of a Christian.

    I'm saying that Jesus dangles salvation in our face only snatch it away because of a slight transgression. Not at all. I believe that salvation can be lost. However, it requires a sustained and protracted turning away from Christ, especially if the one dies without retracting their steps in repentance. Such people may be Christian in speech and outward appearance, but God who searches the heart knows they are far from him. Is every brother/sister in your church saved? NO! But all and sundry will naturally argue they are saved.

    The common rebuttal is that such people were never saved, but I beg to differ. Because some of these people are as saved as one can be when they gave their lives to Christ! The danger with these once saved, eternally saved malarkey is that some are blissfully heading for eternal destruction while ignorantly believing they are heaven bound.

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    These verses answer your question for me.

    2 Corinthians 5:17
    “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:
    old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”

    Matthew 9:17
    “Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.”

    Ephesians 4:24
    “and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.”

    Matthew 7:16
    “Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”
    I don't know what these passages have to do whether one can or cannot lose their salvation? Of a truth, we become new in all things when we come to faith, etc. However, this view does not take into account, the life the believer chooses to live in the long run? Should he of his own free will, choose to backslide, are you arguing that Jesus will stop him from doing so?

  6. #21
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    I think this begs the question on whether we "decide to be saved" in the first place.

    “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy ... He has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (Romans 9)

    But we can actually circumvent the whole Romans 9 conversation and just go straight to what Jesus said Himself:

    And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:39)

    If someone "decides to be lost" after being in the body of Christ, after looking to the Son for salvation, and after being sealed with the Holy Spirit - then He has lost someone that the Father had given. I think contrary to how many churches seem to think, salvation is not all about us but about God claiming a people out of the world for Himself. Salvation is dependent upon God, so it cannot be changed unless God changes His mind and revokes the covenant He made with us when we believed in His sacrifice.

    I will not violate My covenant or alter the utterance of My lips. (Psalm 89:34)
    John 6:39 is one of the most misunderstood texts in the Bible. In Luke 22:31-32 Jesus told Peter that Satan has desired to destroy him, but that he has interceded and prayed for him. This is an example of what Jesus meant "that none given to him by God will be taken from him" by none other than Satan. But does John 6:39 also mean that none who professes Christ will be lost? The passage doesn't say that if we look at it this way:

    1. The saved who remains faithful to God will Satan NOT take away.
    2. But the saved who at some point in his Christian journey turn back from Christ loses Christ' protection and assurance stated in John 6:39 and becomes susceptible to fall to Satan.

    So a critical examination of John 6:39 finds that it doesn't offer the "irrevocable once saved in Christ, never can be lost theory" that those who quote this passage have in mind.

  7. #22
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by uric9 View Post
    Well I think there are several ideas being tossed out here, but we need to put things into context. As an example I saw John 10:28 used about the sheep her his voice and they have eternal life and will not be snatched out of his hand.

    1. This can't apply to us currently.... do we have eternal life currently? Nope, we still die, Eternal life is given on Judgement day... so the statement in John 10:28 is after Judgement his sheep will have eternal life and no one can take them, as at that time they'll be claimed. So this passage can't be in the now, since we are still of mortal bodies and can perish and die....
    Uric9, you wrote a lot. Let’s stop at this point. We don’t have eternal life right now and we only get it at judgment day.

    Let’s look at the words of Jesus.

    John 3:36 (NAS): “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

    He who believes has eternal life, “will have” or “will receive”. Present tense, Friend.

    Same thing in the following verses all spoken by Jesus.

    John 5:24 (NAS): Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

    John 6:47 (NAS): Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

    Look at what John wrote....

    1 John 5:11–13 (NAS): And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
    12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
    13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

    Verse 11 is past tense (Haas given us). Verse 13 is present (you have eternal life).

    So whatever you want to do with the warnings (that needs a separate post or posts) we can’t have Jesus and John saying that we have eternal life and then us saying the opposite.

    Grace & peace to you,

    Joe

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

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  8. #23
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The popular 'once saved, forever saved' propagated by many will lead some to the lake of fire. The scriptures speak about enduring in Christ to the end, but there are Christians who believe that being saved (I have heard some throw in "eternally" saved for good measure) is a get out of jail free card that allows them to live as they please. And I'm talking about lifestyle and conducts that are uncharacteristic and unbecoming of a Christian.

    I'm saying that Jesus dangles salvation in our face only snatch it away because of a slight transgression. Not at all. I believe that salvation can be lost. However, it requires a sustained and protracted turning away from Christ, especially if the one dies without retracting their steps in repentance. Such people may be Christian in speech and outward appearance, but God who searches the heart knows they are far from him. Is every brother/sister in your church saved? NO! But all and sundry will naturally argue they are saved.

    The common rebuttal is that such people were never saved, but I beg to differ. Because some of these people are as saved as one can be when they gave their lives to Christ! The danger with these once saved, eternally saved malarkey is that some are blissfully heading for eternal destruction while ignorantly believing they are heaven bound.
    Let’s not get wrapped up in how any of us think people will abuse an idea. Let’s look at what the Scripture says.

    Jesus said his sheep “will never perish.”

    Are you saying that people that are his sheep do in fact perish?

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

  9. #24
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The popular 'once saved, forever saved' propagated by many will lead some to the lake of fire. The scriptures speak about enduring in Christ to the end, but there are Christians who believe that being saved (I have heard some throw in "eternally" saved for good measure) is a get out of jail free card that allows them to live as they please. And I'm talking about lifestyle and conducts that are uncharacteristic and unbecoming of a Christian.
    I'm not "throwing in" the word "eternal" in "eternal salvation." Eternal Salvation is what the Scriptures say!

    Heb 5.9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.

    But this verse could apply to our ultimate destiny, and does not solve the issue. A better reference is to the term "eternal life," which is used frequently in the NT Scriptures, and is something the Christian is said to possess immediately. The following passages indicated we *have it* presently, have the One who is "eternal life," and *will have it* in the future...

    1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

    1 John 5:20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

    Jude 1:21 keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    I'm saying that Jesus dangles salvation in our face only snatch it away because of a slight transgression. Not at all. I believe that salvation can be lost. However, it requires a sustained and protracted turning away from Christ, especially if the one dies without retracting their steps in repentance. Such people may be Christian in speech and outward appearance, but God who searches the heart knows they are far from him. Is every brother/sister in your church saved? NO! But all and sundry will naturally argue they are saved.
    True, we should never rest assured that we are saved, if indeed we are truly saved, and then think it's okay to sin. If, for example, we are a proven quality carpenter, and then choose to do a shoddy job, how does having a good reputation justify doing a shoddy job?

    On the other hand, if a person is not truly saved, but only has an appearance of Christian salvation, it is simply a matter of honesty. If we profess belief in Christ, know his power, and yet do not obey him on a regular basis, this shows that we do not truly love him--we are not truly saved.

    It is not enough to know what salvation is. It is not enough to preach what salvation should produce in our lives. We must actually produce the fruit of an intimate relationship with the Lord. A true relationship produces the *fruit* of that relationship, which manifests the characteristics of the One we serve *in us.*

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    The common rebuttal is that such people were never saved, but I beg to differ. Because some of these people are as saved as one can be when they gave their lives to Christ! The danger with these once saved, eternally saved malarkey is that some are blissfully heading for eternal destruction while ignorantly believing they are heaven bound.
    That would deny the power of grace. I know people who had been truly saved who completely turned their back on the Lord. But we are not to judge by appearances. I know the circumstances in the lives of some of these people. They have been hurt emotionally in a terrible way.

    They are not completely turning their back on God, but on the circumstances that have devastated them, which they think indicates God has turned His back on them. There is yet hope for them, because God's grace is great, and not like human unforgiveness.

    One example. A friend, Paul, was a brand new Christian, after having been raised in paganism. An older brother had become part of the Jesus People, but later fell into the Children of God cult. He helped "shame me" back into Christianity, which I had been raised in. I had been raised in a "dead church," but Paul's enthusiasm in the Jesus Movement motivated me to pursue God more deeply.

    Paul and I got a job in a restaurant, and Paul led one of the waitresses to Christ. He fell madly in love with her, and as much as she liked Paul, she had no interest in him romantically. He eventually turned his back on the Lord and married a nonChristian woman, who adored him. But she hated Christianity.

    Paul became an outspoken pagan, and even today, many years later, embraces liberal acceptance of homosexuality and pagan lifestyles. But years ago, not long after he gave up his Christianity he came up to me privately and said he still believes in secret. It was just that his pagan wife hated Christianity.

    I believe Paul will be saved, even though he doesn't live the "saved" life. But he is truly a nice person, and secretly believes. He just has never been able to let go of his bitterness towards God, and could never oppose his wife. At least that's how I read it. Do you think God's mercy cannot save him?

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    Let’s not get wrapped up in how any of us think people will abuse an idea. Let’s look at what the Scripture says.

    Jesus said his sheep “will never perish.”

    Are you saying that people that are his sheep do in fact perish?
    If these two lines are all you have in support then, I must ask you to read all my posts on this subject. Context is at the heart of every statement, so in which context did Jesus say my sheep will perish?

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    If these two lines are all you have in support then, I must ask you to read all my posts on this subject. Context is at the heart of every statement, so in which context did Jesus say my sheep will perish?
    They are far from all the support. However, it’s an extremely clear statement.

    Jesus: My sheep will never perish.

    If one sheep perishes, then Jesus was wrong.

    If this verse truly means sheep never perish, then any verse taken to mean sheep do perish is misunderstood.

    Here is a terrible problem in the church and BibleForum members suffer tremendously from this malady. It’s not “my verses” and “your verses”. All of the verses are our verses. They all must fit together.

    So you say the context support says your view of perishing sheep. Go for it. But we are talking context. So stick with John 10. I’m listening.

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    But does John 6:39 also mean that none who professes Christ will be lost? The passage doesn't say that
    I'm sorry that you believe this.
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

  13. #28

    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    One last note...

    In the OT, a wife could not choose to divorce her husband. Why do we think we are the ones that can choose to divorce our husband, Jesus Christ? Now, the husband could put away the wife.

    Jesus teaches that there's only one reason for divorce that is fornication, if one divorces for other reasons it's adultery .

  14. #29

    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Choosing is not being snatched. Of course, if one believes that a lost man cannot choose to be saved, then how could one believe that a saved man could choose to be lost.
    everyone's lost to begin with , Jesus is offering salvation to those who will hear and believe...

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not "throwing in" the word "eternal" in "eternal salvation." Eternal Salvation is what the Scriptures say!

    Heb 5.9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.

    But this verse could apply to our ultimate destiny, and does not solve the issue. A better reference is to the term "eternal life," which is used frequently in the NT Scriptures, and is something the Christian is said to possess immediately. The following passages indicated we *have it* presently, have the One who is "eternal life," and *will have it* in the future...

    1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

    1 John 5:20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

    Jude 1:21 keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
    'Eternal life is a promise' redeemed at the resurrection to those who abide in Christ to the end. This is confirmed by Jude 1:21 that you cited.

    Jude 1:21 keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

    Eternal life is conditional - "that we keep ourselves in God's love" as we wait in the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to BRING us eternal life. Since God cannot lie, his promise is, therefore, *irrevocable* but contingent upon us abiding in him to the end. This promise does not cover the one who of his own free will, turns his back on the Prince of Life. On this premise, I debunk the once saved, forever saved, theory. This is my position.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    True, we should never rest assured that we are saved, if indeed we are truly saved, and then think it's okay to sin. If, for example, we are a proven quality carpenter, and then choose to do a shoddy job, how does having a good reputation justify doing a shoddy job?

    On the other hand, if a person is not truly saved, but only has an appearance of Christian salvation, it is simply a matter of honesty. If we profess belief in Christ, know his power, and yet do not obey him on a regular basis, this shows that we do not truly love him--we are not truly saved.

    It is not enough to know what salvation is. It is not enough to preach what salvation should produce in our lives. We must actually produce the fruit of an intimate relationship with the Lord. A true relationship produces the *fruit* of that relationship, which manifests the characteristics of the One we serve *in us.*
    What lies at the heart of this topic is whether a saved man can at some point turn in his Christian journey, turn his back on Christ and thus lose his salvation if he dies in that state without repentance? The arguments I've heard posit that it is impossible or that the one that turns his back on Christ was never saved in the first place. This argument bothers me and I have diligently searched the scriptures for support but found none.

    On the contrary, every indication points to the fact that a very saved believer can as easily lose their salvation under the aforesaid conditions unless they quickly retrace their steps to Christ in repentance. For clarity, I must say that my focus is on the truly saved who could potentially lose their salvation. I have no interest in the unsaved with "appearances of Christian salvation" as you put it.

    1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    From the above, would you say that Paul was referring to unbelievers as those that may depart from the faith in the latter times (end times)? I believe he was referring to saved Believers for, how can those not in Christ depart from a faith they never had to begin with? I'm not sure there's any other way to interpret this text to NOT mean exactly what it says. Paul also complained about some apostles working ith him who turned their backs om the gospel when the going got tough. I believe there are other clues that a saved man can backslide and fall away from Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    That would deny the power of grace. I know people who had been truly saved who completely turned their back on the Lord. But we are not to judge by appearances. I know the circumstances in the lives of some of these people. They have been hurt emotionally in a terrible way.

    They are not completely turning their back on God, but on the circumstances that have devastated them, which they think indicates God has turned His back on them. There is yet hope for them, because God's grace is great, and not like human unforgiveness.

    One example. A friend, Paul, was a brand new Christian, after having been raised in paganism. An older brother had become part of the Jesus People, but later fell into the Children of God cult. He helped "shame me" back into Christianity, which I had been raised in. I had been raised in a "dead church," but Paul's enthusiasm in the Jesus Movement motivated me to pursue God more deeply.

    Paul and I got a job in a restaurant, and Paul led one of the waitresses to Christ. He fell madly in love with her, and as much as she liked Paul, she had no interest in him romantically. He eventually turned his back on the Lord and married a nonChristian woman, who adored him. But she hated Christianity.

    Paul became an outspoken pagan, and even today, many years later, embraces liberal acceptance of homosexuality and pagan lifestyles. But years ago, not long after he gave up his Christianity he came up to me privately and said he still believes in secret. It was just that his pagan wife hated Christianity.

    I believe Paul will be saved, even though he doesn't live the "saved" life. But he is truly a nice person, and secretly believes. He just has never been able to let go of his bitterness towards God, and could never oppose his wife. At least that's how I read it. Do you think God's mercy cannot save him?
    I do not deny God's grace, but we should be careful in the belief that grace covers us for whatever do, even such as are contrary to the doctrine which we have received in Christ. In Rom 6:15 Paul asked, "should we continue to sin because we are not under the law, but under grace?" And he says God forbid! This clearly shows that grace will not cover willful sin.

    It is not my place to say whether your friend Paul will be saved or not. I can only point out including your first example of 'people who are emotionally hurt' who might do some crazy stuff against God, that throughout the scriptures, we are constantly reminded that trials and all manner of challenges will come our way. And we are exhorted to persevere to the end. I don't know what will be the fate of those who don't persevere.

    And I'm not sure there are Brownie points for anyone who put someone or anything else before God. If Paul still truly believes, then he would know that it pays to fear Jesus more than his wife.

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