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Thread: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

  1. #31
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    I'm sorry that you believe this.
    We believe what we believe, I suppose.

  2. #32
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    They are far from all the support. However, itís an extremely clear statement.

    Jesus: My sheep will never perish.

    If one sheep perishes, then Jesus was wrong.

    If this verse truly means sheep never perish, then any verse taken to mean sheep do perish is misunderstood.

    Here is a terrible problem in the church and BibleForum members suffer tremendously from this malady. Itís not ďmy versesĒ and ďyour versesĒ. All of the verses are our verses. They all must fit together.

    So you say the context support says your view of perishing sheep. Go for it. But we are talking context. So stick with John 10. Iím listening.
    Please see post #21. I pointed out that those who abide in Christ to the end will never perish. For example, unbeknown to Peter, Satan had planned to destroy him, but Jesus stepped in and saved him. This is recurring time and again in the lives of those who remain in abiding faith in Christ. However, a saved man who at some point, perhaps because of an unpalatable circumstance, persecution, the unholy pursuit of money among others, backslides and turns away from Christ - this promise "my sheep will never perish" no longer covers him.

    2 Tim 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

    Paul made this statement in a letter to Timothy. The question we must ask ourselves is what did he mean by "save thyself"? I'm not sure there's anyone who believes that Timothy was not saved at the time Paul wrote the letter. So then, does "save thy self mean"? I'm sure Paul was referring to Timothy being saved from physical abuse either. So what is it?

    I will share my understanding of the passage. Yes, young Timothy was already saved, but as the scriptures have constantly maintained, we must remain faithful to Christ to the end to receive the promised salvation/eternal life. Let's examine the passage to understand the proviso that guarantees eternal life.

    Paul exhorted Timothy to:

    1. Take heed (or be careful, be diligent) to yourself AND to
    2. The doctrine (Gospel/word of God) AND that he should
    3. Continue in 1-2 - only in diligent adherence to these would he be able to save himself and those who hear his preaching.

    Since Timothy was already saved, therefore, it means that if he fails to uphold these tenets to the end (end as in death), should he fall away from the true Gospel, the possibility is there that he might lose his salvation. So "save thy self" to me is to ensure that Timothy receives that ultimate promise of eternal life by doing 1-2 as stated.

    I will like to hear your agreement or disagreement of this interpretation.

  3. #33
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    If these two lines are all you have in support then, I must ask you to read all my posts on this subject. Context is at the heart of every statement, so in which context did Jesus say my sheep will perish?
    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    They are far from all the support. However, itís an extremely clear statement.

    Jesus: My sheep will never perish.

    If one sheep perishes, then Jesus was wrong.

    If this verse truly means sheep never perish, then any verse taken to mean sheep do perish is misunderstood.

    Here is a terrible problem in the church and BibleForum members suffer tremendously from this malady. Itís not ďmy versesĒ and ďyour versesĒ. All of the verses are our verses. They all must fit together.

    So you say the context support says your view of perishing sheep. Go for it. But we are talking context. So stick with John 10. Iím listening.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Please see post #21. I pointed out that those who abide in Christ to the end will never perish. For example, unbeknown to Peter, Satan had planned to destroy him, but Jesus stepped in and saved him. This is recurring time and again in the lives of those who remain in abiding faith in Christ. However, a saved man who at some point, perhaps because of an unpalatable circumstance, persecution, the unholy pursuit of money among others, backslides and turns away from Christ - this promise "my sheep will never perish" no longer covers him.

    2 Tim 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

    Paul made this statement in a letter to Timothy. The question we must ask ourselves is what did he mean by "save thyself"? I'm not sure there's anyone who believes that Timothy was not saved at the time Paul wrote the letter. So then, does "save thy self mean"? I'm sure Paul was referring to Timothy being saved from physical abuse either. So what is it?

    I will share my understanding of the passage. Yes, young Timothy was already saved, but as the scriptures have constantly maintained, we must remain faithful to Christ to the end to receive the promised salvation/eternal life. Let's examine the passage to understand the proviso that guarantees eternal life.

    Paul exhorted Timothy to:

    1. Take heed (or be careful, be diligent) to yourself AND to
    2. The doctrine (Gospel/word of God) AND that he should
    3. Continue in 1-2 - only in diligent adherence to these would he be able to save himself and those who hear his preaching.

    Since Timothy was already saved, therefore, it means that if he fails to uphold these tenets to the end (end as in death), should he fall away from the true Gospel, the possibility is there that he might lose his salvation. So "save thy self" to me is to ensure that Timothy receives that ultimate promise of eternal life by doing 1-2 as stated.

    I will like to hear your agreement or disagreement of this interpretation.
    Back up from your newest reply to mine and yours before it. I thought you were going to explain the context of John 10. You didnít say anything about John 10.

    Iíll be glad to discuss every passage. Letís discuss John 10 and the context of John 10. Go ahead. Your turn.


    Grace and peace, Friend.

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    'Eternal life is a promise' redeemed at the resurrection to those who abide in Christ to the end. This is confirmed by Jude 1:21 that you cited.

    Jude 1:21 keep yourselves in Godís love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
    The problem with this is, the Scriptures indicate we *already have* eternal life--at least those of us who have more than a superficial knowledge of Christ. So although we may inherit "eternal life" in the future, in some sense we already have a down payment on that inheritance.

    Let me emphasize that people can have a *real knowledge* of Christ and still be superficial in their connection with the Lord in heart matters. Unless someone allows their heart to be changed by the living Christ they are not truly saved.

    Acquired knowledge from God can truly be received and imparted by anybody. But a heart change is an individual decision that goes beyond that. That's why I call some forms of Christianity "superficial."

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    Eternal life is conditional - "that we keep ourselves in God's love" as we wait in the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to BRING us eternal life. Since God cannot lie, his promise is, therefore, *irrevocable* but contingent upon us abiding in him to the end. This promise does not cover the one who of his own free will, turns his back on the Prince of Life. On this premise, I debunk the once saved, forever saved, theory. This is my position.
    The Scriptures say we already have eternal life. We are already "sheep." And the sheep will *never* perish, according to Jesus. We do *not* become sheep at the end of our lives. Rather, we are already sheep, so that we are kept by the Lord.

    It is said by Arminians, including my brother, that we have "eternal life" only insofar as we keep Jesus in our heart, because as the Scriptures say, he is eternal life. If we lose that essence of eternal life, we lose our salvation.

    But again, the Scriptures indicate that God will *never* allow His sheep to perish. They would have to stop being sheep for this to happen. And that defies the entire implication that God will *not* allow that to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    What lies at the heart of this topic is whether a saved man can at some point turn in his Christian journey, turn his back on Christ and thus lose his salvation if he dies in that state without repentance? The arguments I've heard posit that it is impossible or that the one that turns his back on Christ was never saved in the first place. This argument bothers me and I have diligently searched the scriptures for support but found none.
    That may be because judgment is largely the domain of God--not us. We facilitate salvation and judgment only by the revelation of God. Since we don't know everything about everybody, why even try to go beyond what Christ said, namely that he will *never* lose any of his sheep?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    On the contrary, every indication points to the fact that a very saved believer can as easily lose their salvation under the aforesaid conditions unless they quickly retrace their steps to Christ in repentance. For clarity, I must say that my focus is on the truly saved who could potentially lose their salvation. I have no interest in the unsaved with "appearances of Christian salvation" as you put it.
    Granted, we are talking about people who we know have been truly saved--not just "nominal Christians." Undoubtedly many of these have gone astray. Sin can attack anybody, and people are bound to fail in varying degrees. It isn't my job to judge their eternal status except to believe what Jesus said--he will "never" lose any of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    From the above, would you say that Paul was referring to unbelievers as those that may depart from the faith in the latter times (end times)? I believe he was referring to saved Believers for, how can those not in Christ depart from a faith they never had to begin with? I'm not sure there's any other way to interpret this text to NOT mean exactly what it says. Paul also complained about some apostles working ith him who turned their backs om the gospel when the going got tough. I believe there are other clues that a saved man can backslide and fall away from Jesus.
    Just a moment ago you said you weren't referring to people with a superficial knowledge of Christ. But some of these people may have been involved in "departing from the faith." There is a difference between departing from righteousness and departing from faith. As I pointed out, some Christians who outwardly appeared to depart from their faith actually did not, but only sought to cover up the shame of their apostasy.

    The record of Israel's apostasy is clear in the OT Scriptures. They lusted after other gods, because they were weak to the lusts of the flesh. Some truly abandoned their faith. Others just fell into human lust. It is not my purpose to say what individuals were truly apostates from their faith and which among them simply capitulated to the lusts of the flesh! Both David and Solomon capitulated to the lusts of the flesh, and were not apostates from the faith! If Solomon never divorced all of his 1000 or so pagan wives I still believe his faith and salvation remained intact! Samson went to a prostitute, and gave up his integrity to the point where he died. But we know he kept both his faith and his salvation!

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    I do not deny God's grace, but we should be careful in the belief that grace covers us for whatever do, even such as are contrary to the doctrine which we have received in Christ. In Rom 6:15 Paul asked, "should we continue to sin because we are not under the law, but under grace?" And he says God forbid! This clearly shows that grace will not cover willful sin.
    Paul is saying that we *should not* make an excuse for licentiousness. But it happens. To say that Grace cannot cover *all sin* is a dangerous position to take. Backsliding can indeed be forgiven, as the example of OT Israel indicates over and over again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    It is not my place to say whether your friend Paul will be saved or not. I can only point out including your first example of 'people who are emotionally hurt' who might do some crazy stuff against God, that throughout the scriptures, we are constantly reminded that trials and all manner of challenges will come our way. And we are exhorted to persevere to the end. I don't know what will be the fate of those who don't persevere.

    And I'm not sure there are Brownie points for anyone who put someone or anything else before God. If Paul still truly believes, then he would know that it pays to fear Jesus more than his wife.
    There are bondages and fears that hinder people from coming to repentance. It is an obstacle to overcome. Some succeed and others don't. But all can be forgiven. The point is, we should try to succeed, and not just be forgiven!

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    Back up from your newest reply to mine and yours before it. I thought you were going to explain the context of John 10. You didnít say anything about John 10.

    Iíll be glad to discuss every passage. Letís discuss John 10 and the context of John 10. Go ahead. Your turn.
    Grace and peace, Friend.
    What do you want to discuss in John 10?

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    Question Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    What do you want to discuss in John 10?
    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    If these two lines are all you have in support then, I must ask you to read all my posts on this subject. Context is at the heart of every statement, so in which context did Jesus say my sheep will perish?
    You said context is the heart of the issue. I fully agree with you. You asked in what context Jesus said ďmy sheep will perishĒ.

    The context is John 10. And he said his sheep will never perish, not his sheep will perish.

    So, Iím looking for you to explain the context of John 10 so that my sheep will never perish turns into his sheep will perish.

    So please address John 10. Your arguments about Peter being prayed for by Jesus and Jude 21 donít support your conclusion either. The Peter account and the letter of Jude support the claim of Jesus that his sheep will never perish. However, one text at a time. RandyK made some great comments in his last post.

    Earlier I listed several passages that say in present tense that we have (present tense) eternal life, not will get at some future time. Jesus said this multiple times and so did the apostle John.

    People twist the Scripture to their own destruction. Peter said people twisted Paulís writings to their own destruction as they did the rest of the Scripture (2 Peter 3:16). So we are obligated to believe what the Scripture teaches. If the Scripture teaches we have eternal life, then so be it. If it teaches we have conditional life or 5-year life or 15-year life then we are obligated to teach that.

    But if it teaches we have eternal life and people twist and abuse that to their destruction, we shouldnít change doctrine over the abuse and misuse of a doctrine nor be surprised by such since it was happening while the apostles and Jesus walked this earth. The person who truly grasps the security of the believer will be driven to holiness. Thatís what it has done for me for three decades (and many others too).

    Grace & peace to you, Friend.

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    You said context is the heart of the issue. I fully agree with you. You asked in what context Jesus said ďmy sheep will perishĒ.

    The context is John 10. And he said his sheep will never perish, not his sheep will perish.

    So, Iím looking for you to explain the context of John 10 so that my sheep will never perish turns into his sheep will perish.

    So please address John 10. Your arguments about Peter being prayed for by Jesus and Jude 21 donít support your conclusion either. The Peter account and the letter of Jude support the claim of Jesus that his sheep will never perish. However, one text at a time. RandyK made some great comments in his last post.

    Earlier I listed several passages that say in present tense that we have (present tense) eternal life, not will get at some future time. Jesus said this multiple times and so did the apostle John.

    People twist the Scripture to their own destruction. Peter said people twisted Paulís writings to their own destruction as they did the rest of the Scripture (2 Peter 3:16). So we are obligated to believe what the Scripture teaches. If the Scripture teaches we have eternal life, then so be it. If it teaches we have conditional life or 5-year life or 15-year life then we are obligated to teach that.

    But if it teaches we have eternal life and people twist and abuse that to their destruction, we shouldnít change doctrine over the abuse and misuse of a doctrine nor be surprised by such since it was happening while the apostles and Jesus walked this earth. The person who truly grasps the security of the believer will be driven to holiness. Thatís what it has done for me for three decades (and many others too).

    Grace & peace to you, Friend.
    We believe according to our understanding of scripture, so if yours leads you to believe that "once saved, you are forever saved" irrespective of whether you turn your back on God, then I wish you luck. Now that you have clarified your reference to John 10, I realise that I've already addressed it in post #32. I have provided you with a link to avail you of my thoughts.

    Remain blessed.

    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...Lost?p=3518682

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    We believe according to our understanding of scripture, so if yours leads you to believe that "once saved, you are forever saved" irrespective of whether you turn your back on God, then I wish you luck. Now that you have clarified your reference to John 10, I realise that I've already addressed it in post #32. I have provided you with a link to avail you of my thoughts.

    Remain blessed.

    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...Lost?p=3518682
    Thanks for the link. You need to know that you have just completely misstated my position. So what you are rejecting isn’t a view I hold.

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

  9. #39
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Please see post #21. I pointed out that those who abide in Christ to the end will never perish. For example, unbeknown to Peter, Satan had planned to destroy him, but Jesus stepped in and saved him. This is recurring time and again in the lives of those who remain in abiding faith in Christ. However, a saved man who at some point, perhaps because of an unpalatable circumstance, persecution, the unholy pursuit of money among others, backslides and turns away from Christ - this promise "my sheep will never perish" no longer covers him.
    Letís make an important point. Jesus said in John 10 that his sheep never perish. So you bring up Peter. But notice something very important. Peter never perished!

    Look, Jesus states the security of the believer in four ways in John 10....

    John 10:27Ė29 (NAS): My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
    28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
    29 ďMy Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Fatherís hand.

    1) I give the eternal life. Iím not what eternal means in your mind. But if I have life and then later donít have it, then it wasnít eternal, was it? It was 5 year life or 10 year life or what have you.

    2) They will never perish. What does never mean in your mind?

    3) No one will snatch them out of my hand. Satan had zero chance with Peter. Zero. Peter was in the hand of Jesus.

    4) No one is able to snatch them out of the Fatherís hand. Again Satan had chance with Peter. Peter was in the Fatherís hand.

    Did Jesus need a fifth way to say it? What would satisfy you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    2 Tim 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

    Paul made this statement in a letter to Timothy. The question we must ask ourselves is what did he mean by "save thyself"? I'm not sure there's anyone who believes that Timothy was not saved at the time Paul wrote the letter. So then, does "save thy self mean"? I'm sure Paul was referring to Timothy being saved from physical abuse either. So what is it?

    I will share my understanding of the passage. Yes, young Timothy was already saved, but as the scriptures have constantly maintained, we must remain faithful to Christ to the end to receive the promised salvation/eternal life. Let's examine the passage to understand the proviso that guarantees eternal life.

    Paul exhorted Timothy to:

    1. Take heed (or be careful, be diligent) to yourself AND to
    2. The doctrine (Gospel/word of God) AND that he should
    3. Continue in 1-2 - only in diligent adherence to these would he be able to save himself and those who hear his preaching.

    Since Timothy was already saved, therefore, it means that if he fails to uphold these tenets to the end (end as in death), should he fall away from the true Gospel, the possibility is there that he might lose his salvation. So "save thy self" to me is to ensure that Timothy receives that ultimate promise of eternal life by doing 1-2 as stated.

    I will like to hear your agreement or disagreement of this interpretation.
    You asked a good question in here. Saved from what? Same Greek word in 1 Timothy 2:15.

    1 Timothy 2:13Ė15 (KJV): For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14*And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15*Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

    Saved in childbearing? Is Paul teaching justification by birthing for women?

    So saved isnít always justification. But for sake of argument....Does this verse by Paul topple the four fold statement by Jesus? If Paul contradicts the creator we have a problem.

    Furthermore, Paul would contradict himself in that very letter. Paul speaks of the new life being eternal.

    1 Timothy 1:16 (NAS): Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

    You countered John 6. Can I ask you to imagine you are reading it for a first time.....without theological baggage?

    John 6:37Ė39 (NAS): All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
    38 ďFor I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
    39 ďThis is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

    Of all the Father gives Jesus, Jesus loses nothing.

    Trivalee, note these words....eternal, never, no one, lose nothing. In your theology those words turn into conditional, sometimes, some one (Satan maybe), lose some.

    You mentioned Jude. Letís look in another post.....

    Jude 20Ė21 (NAS): But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
    21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

    Nowhere does Jude say anything about losing salvation. You seduce that. But Iím sure youíve read the entire letter....but with your theological glasses on.

    Jude 24Ė25 (NAS): Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
    25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

    God is the one who does the keeping. God is the one who makes us stand

    Look at the start of the letter.....

    Jude 1 (NAS): Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,
    To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:

    There is again in the first verse. God keeps us.

    We are secure not because of anything we do. We canít save ourselves. We canít keep ourselves. God saves. God keeps. If either is left to us, weíre screwed.

    His sheep will never perish. Think of it this way despite all that Scripture....

    A) Trivalee is one of Jesusí sheep.
    B) Jesus said his sheep will never perish.
    C) Trivalee will never perish.

    If A is true and B is true, then C is a inescapable conclusion.
    If C doesnít happen, then either A or B must be false.



    B cannot be false for the Christian. So if you someone ever perishes, they were not Jesusí sheep.

    This is what John says.

    1 John 2:19 (NAS): They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

    If someone quits following, it is evidence they may likely have never been a sheep. If they were, then they had temporary life. If they were, then one of his sheep perished. If they were, Jesus lost one. If they were, the keeping power of God lost to Satan.

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Enduring to the end doesnít make one become a sheep.

    Enduring to the end doesnít keep one a sheep.

    Enduring to the end proves one always was a sheep.

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    Enduring to the end doesn’t make one become a sheep.

    Enduring to the end doesn’t keep one a sheep.

    Enduring to the end proves one always was a sheep.
    Couldn't agree more. Right to the point and awesome post.

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    Let me make a separate comment about choosing. David, take a concordance. Look up every single New Testament use of choose, chose, chosen or elect.

    Every single time the New Testament uses those words in a salvific sense, God is the subject and humans are the object or predicate. Every single time.

    When humans are the subject of the verb, itís about choosing other humans to perform a task.

    Not once does the NT ever use that word of humans choosing God or choosing salvation.

    Do the study. I know what Iím saying can be unsettling at first. But whose doctrine do you want? Yours? Your denominationís? Or Godís?

    Why teach something in a churchís doctrinal statement that not one NT Scripture uses such language?

    Remember James 3:1....

    James 3:1 (NAS): Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

    You, as a pastor, will incur a stricter judgment. You owe it to your congregation, to yourself, and to God to teach what the Bible says, not what you or your churchís statement of faith want it to say.

    Grave & peace to you, Friend and Brother.

    Joe
    Yes... God chooses all to be saved. Have you read 2 Peter 3:9? "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Is God's will different than what He chooses?

    I appreciate your implication that God will judge me because I don't adhere to your doctrine or that I don't study the Scriptures objectively.
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Yes... God chooses all to be saved. Have you read 2 Peter 3:9? "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Is God's will different than what He chooses?

    I appreciate your implication that God will judge me because I don't adhere to your doctrine or that I don't study the Scriptures objectively.
    Allow me to throw my own tuppence into the bowl.
    God also did not wish that any of the OT Israel should perish, but that all should come to repentance. While our unfailing God kept his part of the deal, did every one of OT Israel repent? It is the same in this NT age. We come to faith, believe and confess Christ and are saved. However, should one at some point in his Christian journey, backslide for a myriad of reasons and dies without repenting and coming back into the fold, will such a believer still be saved? I don't think so.

    We remain his sheep as long as we abide in him by faith. But if one turns his back on him, he, like Israel will be broken off from the olive tree. Paul said to the Romans (Christians):

    Rom 11:20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
    Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.


    This is Paul's admonition to saved Gentiles. He told them in plain language that God will not spare them (as he did not to Israel) should they fall into unbelief. It is a mistake for one to ignore that tiny voice of caution that calls out as you embark on a treacherous path motivated by the evil pursuit of money, fleshly gratification, etc. over and over again while saying in his heart; I believe in Christ, I am saved. Paul asked, "should we continue in sin because grace abounds"? (Rom 6:1).

    Note that in my view, one has to willingly engage in such transgressions over a protracted timescale to fall away from God. As I said in any another post, God doesn't snatch our salvation away because of a slight transgression.

  14. #44
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Yes... God chooses all to be saved.
    Greetings David,

    It appears from your conclusions in your response that I wasn't clear. I apologize.

    There is a serious difference between:

    A) God chooses all to be saved (universalism - which I reject)

    And

    B) God chooses all who are to be saved (particularism).

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Have you read 2 Peter 3:9? "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Is God's will different than what He chooses?
    Of course I have. I donít ask if youíve read John 10 because I know you have. Should Christians pick the verses that appear to agree with them and avoid others or give lame answers about them or should we be diligent to rightly handle all the verses to try to make one coherent doctrine of them all?

    No need to answer as I know you agree with the latter.

    So John 10 and 2 Peter 3:9 are both true. How do we make them work together? Iíll address this after I comment about your next portion.


    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    I appreciate your implication that God will judge me because I don't adhere to your doctrine or that I don't study the Scriptures objectively.
    When I quote James 3, Iím addressing myself too. Iíve been teaching the Bible for decades. Iíve taught in multiple pulpits. And sometimes, to my shame, Iíve mishandled various texts. My doctrine, your doctrine aside. You and I are in the same boat. We are both getting a stricter judgement.

    Iím not saying ďbecause Davidís perspective is not mine, heís in troubleĒ. We both are in a tough spot. Iím asking for us to labor together over this issue.

    John 10:27Ė30 (NAS): My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
    28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
    29 ďMy Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Fatherís hand.
    30 ďI and the Father are one.Ē

    Are you a Jesus sheep? I know that you are. So let me share those verses again (with apologies).

    John 10:27Ė29 (NKJV): [David] hear[s] My voice, and I know [him], and [he] follow[s] Me. 28*And I give [him] eternal life, and [he] shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch [him] out of My hand. 29*My Father, who has given [him] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [him] out of My Fatherís hand.

    Is that a fair rendition of John 10? Does your name fit in those places?

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

  15. #45
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Allow me to throw my own tuppence into the bowl.
    God also did not wish that any of the OT Israel should perish, but that all should come to repentance. While our unfailing God kept his part of the deal, did every one of OT Israel repent? It is the same in this NT age. We come to faith, believe and confess Christ and are saved. However, should one at some point in his Christian journey, backslide for a myriad of reasons and dies without repenting and coming back into the fold, will such a believer still be saved? I don't think so.

    We remain his sheep as long as we abide in him by faith. But if one turns his back on him, he, like Israel will be broken off from the olive tree. Paul said to the Romans (Christians):

    Rom 11:20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
    Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.


    This is Paul's admonition to saved Gentiles. He told them in plain language that God will not spare them (as he did not to Israel) should they fall into unbelief. It is a mistake for one to ignore that tiny voice of caution that calls out as you embark on a treacherous path motivated by the evil pursuit of money, fleshly gratification, etc. over and over again while saying in his heart; I believe in Christ, I am saved. Paul asked, "should we continue in sin because grace abounds"? (Rom 6:1).

    Note that in my view, one has to willingly engage in such transgressions over a protracted timescale to fall away from God. As I said in any another post, God doesn't snatch our salvation away because of a slight transgression.
    Trivalee,

    See my above post to ChangedByHim and let me ask you the same.

    I assume you would consider yourself a Jesus sheep.

    John 10:27Ė29 (AV): [Trivalee] hear[s] my voice, and I know [him], and [he] follow[s] me: 28 And I give unto [him] eternal life; and [he] shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck [he] out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave [him] me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck [him] out of my Fatherís hand.

    Is it reasonable to put your name in those places?

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

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