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Thread: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

  1. #586
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    I know I am coming in on the tail end of this... but been reading the last few pages and got to the discussion above. It appears that its being stated that God before time began predetermined would be saved and who wouldn't... or the elect. If this is not the case then I apologize. However, I feel inclined to write since this seems to be the topic being discussed.

    1. So did God choose the Elect before time began... answer is Yes. However, the elect is not a list of names or God in the beginning choose Bob and not Jim... etc... The elect are Christians so anyone who becomes a Christian is part of the Elect God did choose a people those who are his. I can go into more detail but each of those who obey as sealed by the Holy Spirit noting they are a child of God. Rom 8:16 etc...

    2. Can God Lie? This may seem silly however an important point. We know its something God cannot do, per Heb 6:18. So if that is the case what do you do with 2nd Peter 3:9? If God already choose who would be saved and who wouldn't then this passage in his word would be a lie which isn't possible. 2nd Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." This passage clearly states that God is patient not wanting anyone to perish... that everyone would come to repentance... why would be God be waiting for someone to come to repentance if they can't because they have already been deemed as lost since they weren't in the elect or chosen?

    3. If people are Elected and chosen and it was decided in Eternity past then how can they loose it? We know per Revelation that all those saved are written in the lambs book of life. Rev 20:11-15. However when this book is referenced earlier with the 7 churches we can see those who failed were to be erased... So they were written in the book which deems who is saved but then were noted to be erased, blotted out, removed, etc... thus meaning on the day of Judgement if their name isn't there they are lost. See Rev 3:5 "The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels." God cannot lie as stated earlier so why threaten to remove someone if you selected them as the elect from the beginning.

    4. Salvation has always been a choice, as our actions are a choice. Now are we saved by works and things of that nature... nope nope and nope... my favorite passage to know where works stand is Isa 64:6 our works are as filthy rags... however we have to believe. Heb 11:6 without faith it is impossible to please him... also the demons believe. James 2:18-20 "18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?" Its extremely easy to see that demons believe and of course are lost... so how is our faith different... its obvious the demons believe so how are we different than them. Well its stated in that passage... faith without deeds is useless... does that mean works save us... once again no... however we have to produce fruit, repentance and our life should change, we should be doing works because we're saved not to be saved.

    I'll stop there for now however those are some points to consider. Let me know if you have questions or want to go deeper into any of the above.

    I know I am coming in on the tail end of this... but been reading the last few pages and got to the discussion above. It appears that its being stated that God before time began predetermined would be saved and who wouldn't... or the elect. If this is not the case then I apologize. However, I feel inclined to write since this seems to be the topic being discussed.

    1. So did God choose the Elect before time began... answer is Yes. However, the elect is not a list of names or God in the beginning choose Bob and not Jim... etc... The elect are Christians so anyone who becomes a Christian is part of the Elect God did choose a people those who are his. I can go into more detail but each of those who obey as sealed by the Holy Spirit noting they are a child of God. Rom 8:16 etc...

    2. Can God Lie? This may seem silly however an important point. We know its something God cannot do, per Heb 6:18. So if that is the case what do you do with 2nd Peter 3:9? If God already choose who would be saved and who wouldn't then this passage in his word would be a lie which isn't possible. 2nd Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." This passage clearly states that God is patient not wanting anyone to perish... that everyone would come to repentance... why would be God be waiting for someone to come to repentance if they can't because they have already been deemed as lost since they weren't in the elect or chosen?

    3. If people are Elected and chosen and it was decided in Eternity past then how can they loose it? We know per Revelation that all those saved are written in the lambs book of life. Rev 20:11-15. However when this book is referenced earlier with the 7 churches we can see those who failed were to be erased... So they were written in the book which deems who is saved but then were noted to be erased, blotted out, removed, etc... thus meaning on the day of Judgement if their name isn't there they are lost. See Rev 3:5 "The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels." God cannot lie as stated earlier so why threaten to remove someone if you selected them as the elect from the beginning.

    4. Salvation has always been a choice, as our actions are a choice. Now are we saved by works and things of that nature... nope nope and nope... my favorite passage to know where works stand is Isa 64:6 our works are as filthy rags... however we have to believe. Heb 11:6 without faith it is impossible to please him... also the demons believe. James 2:18-20 "18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?" Its extremely easy to see that demons believe and of course are lost... so how is our faith different... its obvious the demons believe so how are we different than them. Well its stated in that passage... faith without deeds is useless... does that mean works save us... once again no... however we have to produce fruit, repentance and our life should change, we should be doing works because we're saved not to be saved.

    I'll stop there for now however those are some points to consider. Let me know if you have questions or want to go deeper into any of the above.
    Isaiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" We should always be willing to do God's bidding, seek ye first the kingdom of God.

    I use Linux because I don't like Windows

  2. #587
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    No I mean faith as per Eph 2:8.
    Then you are wrong. God doesn't give us faith, that is a virtue we must develop for ourselves. Eph 2:8 doesn't say what you claim.

  3. #588
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Then you are wrong. God doesn't give us faith, that is a virtue we must develop for ourselves. Eph 2:8 doesn't say what you claim.
    I must respectfully disagree with you and may I say Scripture also.

  4. #589
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    I must respectfully disagree with you and may I say Scripture also.
    No the scripture (Eph 2:8) doesn't say that...your bad interpretation of the text does. Respectfully.

  5. #590
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    No the scripture (Eph 2:8) doesn't say that...your bad interpretation of the text does. Respectfully.
    Joh 6:65 And he added, "This is the very reason I told you that no people can come to me unless the Father makes it possible for them to do so."
    Eph 2:8* For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:*

    I am happy with my interpretation.

  6. #591
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Nope... he meant faith. That's a textbook Calvin definition of Ephesian's 2.
    Thanks for clarifying: well, he and his Calvin philosophy couldn't be wrong if they tried.

  7. #592
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Yes God is revealed through creation so no one could have an excuse in not knowing Him, but is the Son also revealed through creation or the Gospel?

    Because of God's love and man's inability, He chose some by grace to be sons of God. This does not make Him love those He passes by less loved, only not recipients of His mercy and grace.

    God did not create anyone for hell, that is the making of man.
    I'm not sure where you're headed with this line of reasoning...for God's grace is available to everyone, saved and unsaved. However, exercising our free-will determines what one does with that grace - whether to throw it back on God's face or use it for sanctification. But to claim that God favoured some with grace and ignored others is unscriptural.

  8. #593
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    In context God will judge all by the same standard. This does not refute God's election. Judgement will be the same for all if you are elected or not.




    Where did I imply that they can't receive it? I only said they did not received it. See the difference?



    Again God's grace to all is for all types and nations, not all individuals. If it was exclusively up to man to decide if he would be saved or not, then it was by his doing and not by grace. Also this then must be given to all. Are you honestly going to say that all people in the history of the world did received the Gospel and thereby could make a choice of accepting or rejecting Christ that was offered by it? Really? There were millions of people who did not received the Gospel and by it Christ or are you going to say there is another path/way to the Father but the Son? This is the reality and not the make belief world your theology is making.

    Is God asking of us something He is not prepared to do? No. He loved sinners while they were still sinners, we must do the same. We must preach the Gospel to all as He commanded and as the parable of the sower teaches us, irrespective where the seed landed. We may not judge who will be saved or not, for it is for God. He is the rightful Judge. We are only serving Him, He is the King who decides what will be or not.

    Do God love the unsaved or unbelievers? Yes, but that does not mean they will be saved. That is only for the elect.

    Lastly Jesus died for those His Father gave to Him, He did not demand who they would be, He trusted His Father. Can you do the same or do you want to be the judge? So because God loved us we must love all and leave judgement to Him.

    Just for clarity I am not against choice. God works with us as humans. By His grace He works in us so that we choose Him by us selves, we are part of it. Yet when we examine this we come to realize that this choice we made, the faith that we had in accepting Him, all was given to us by Him and we cannot boast in anything not even what we did, because it was by grace.
    There is a big difference between forcing a choice and giving an opportunity. God gives opportunity and draws a person. God doesn't force someone into a choice and then says they chose. See it ?

  9. #594

    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    First thing to say, the debate is nonsense, when people live their life for themselves, selfish, they do not understand any of the Lords ways, understanding is only in the keeping of HIs righteous ways, every evil person understands nothing, they also need the Lord to place HIs fear in them, there is NO FEAR IN ANY MAN..

    Proverbs 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the Lord understand all things.

    Psalm 111:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

    Job 41:33 Upon earth there is not his like, who is MADE WITHOUT FEAR.
    34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

    Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves WITHOUT FEAR: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

    Romans 3:18 There is NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.

    Ecclesiastes 8:13 But it shall not be well with THE WICKED, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he FEARETH NOT BEFORE GOD.

    Jeremiah 32:39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:

    Jeremiah 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.


    "1. So did God choose the Elect before time began... answer is Yes. However, the elect is not a list of names or God in the beginning choose Bob and not Jim... etc... The elect are Christians so anyone who becomes a Christian is part of the Elect God did choose a people those who are his. I can go into more detail but each of those who obey as sealed by the Holy Spirit noting they are a child of God. Rom 8:16 etc..."

    Yes He says He knows their names, they know His too, which is a secret, because it is the name of righteousness...

    John 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

    "God's grace is available to everyone, saved and unsaved. However, exercising our free-will determines what one does with that grace - whether to throw it back on God's face or use it for sanctification. But to claim that God favoured some with grace and ignored others is unscriptural."

    Free will versus no free will..

    Mark 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

    1 Corinthians 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

    Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

    Gods grace comes by hearing His voice, it is something obedient ears can do, only those who know it is obedience of faith, of Christ and not of masn..

    Proverbs 25:12 As an earring of gold, and an ornament of fine gold, so is a wise reprover upon an obedient ear.

    Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

    Romans 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

    Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

    "There is a big difference between forcing a choice and giving an opportunity. God gives opportunity and draws a person. God doesn't force someone into a choice and then says they chose. See it ?"

    The same as man cant create fear of the Lord, or give himself a soft heart of flesh taking his stony heart out, nor can give himself the Holy Spirit, so man cant undo these things also, they are an old creature where all ways are bad, and God draws them, they cant possibly have any true feelings towards God, until He, the Spirit of truth comes to them and enlarges their heart and gives them eyes to see with and ears to hear with, and what sense is it to anyone that these people then can cast all of this away when they also AS TESTIFIED, have ALL THINGS NEW AND NOTICE, ALL OLD IS JUST PASSED AWAY..

    2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
    18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

  10. #595
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by hobie View Post
    Some believe that once you decide to be saved you can never choose to be lost again, it is irrevocable on your part. When you accept Jesus as your Saviour, it will be the final choice you will ever make about your eternal destiny. If you change your mind later and repudiate your decision, it will be too late, nothing can change it. No matter how deeply and sincerely you desire to be lost and repent of your repentance, you cannot escape from eternal life. No amount of bitter rebellion, deliberate blasphemy, or iniquitous living can change that once-for-all decision to be saved.

    Is this what the Bible teaches or could it be that maybe salvation is not predicated upon only one irrevocable act or choice of the past, but upon a continuous, personal relationship of the believer with Christ
    I believe that Romans 11:19-23 is pretty clear on this point. Read the whole chapter for more complete understanding.
    You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    If the natural branches (the decendants of Abraham) could be cut off and no longer considered Israel, and Gentiles could be grafted in and considered Israel, but then cut back off for not continuing in His goodness, then it is pretty clear that it is not a one time decision, it is a lifetime of continual walking with Christ that seals our fate. 1 John 1:7 says that the Blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from all sin, meaning that when we stumble, as we all will, we will be forgiven, if we are doing our best to continually walk in the Light.

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