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Thread: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

  1. #46
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Yes... God chooses all to be saved. Have you read 2 Peter 3:9? "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Is God's will different than what He chooses?

    I appreciate your implication that God will judge me because I don't adhere to your doctrine or that I don't study the Scriptures objectively.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Allow me to throw my own tuppence into the bowl.
    God also did not wish that any of the OT Israel should perish, but that all should come to repentance. While our unfailing God kept his part of the deal, did every one of OT Israel repent? It is the same in this NT age. We come to faith, believe and confess Christ and are saved. However, should one at some point in his Christian journey, backslide for a myriad of reasons and dies without repenting and coming back into the fold, will such a believer still be saved? I don't think so.

    We remain his sheep as long as we abide in him by faith. But if one turns his back on him, he, like Israel will be broken off from the olive tree. Paul said to the Romans (Christians):

    Rom 11:20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
    Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.


    This is Paul's admonition to saved Gentiles. He told them in plain language that God will not spare them (as he did not to Israel) should they fall into unbelief. It is a mistake for one to ignore that tiny voice of caution that calls out as you embark on a treacherous path motivated by the evil pursuit of money, fleshly gratification, etc. over and over again while saying in his heart; I believe in Christ, I am saved. Paul asked, "should we continue in sin because grace abounds"? (Rom 6:1).

    Note that in my view, one has to willingly engage in such transgressions over a protracted timescale to fall away from God. As I said in any another post, God doesn't snatch our salvation away because of a slight transgression.
    During Bible Study tonight, this verse came up:

    Ezekiel 18:30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin.[d] 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.”

    Dave and T mentioned, supported by scripture that God desires that NONE die. All who "choose" to believe must also abide and God, throughout OT and NT scriptures exhorts believers to abide. Meaning, stop sinning and don't continue in any sin... an He will save such a believer. God wants ALL of Israel to live and NONE to die just as He desires that NONE (ever born) to die but instead, ALL of mankind can live due to faith/grace.

    But with all these warnings concerning "believers" where God directly says to them, "YOU CAN LIVE," IF you abide (turn to Him and STAY following Him). However the warning is also clear, "believers, you choose to not abide any more by returning to any iniquity, that iniquity will be your death!"
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  2. #47
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    During Bible Study tonight, this verse came up:

    Ezekiel 18:30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin.[d] 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.”

    Dave and T mentioned, supported by scripture that God desires that NONE die. All who "choose" to believe must also abide and God, throughout OT and NT scriptures exhorts believers to abide. Meaning, stop sinning and don't continue in any sin... an He will save such a believer. God wants ALL of Israel to live and NONE to die just as He desires that NONE (ever born) to die but instead, ALL of mankind can live due to faith/grace.

    But with all these warnings concerning "believers" where God directly says to them, "YOU CAN LIVE," IF you abide (turn to Him and STAY following Him). However the warning is also clear, "believers, you choose to not abide any more by returning to any iniquity, that iniquity will be your death!"
    My good friend,

    You and I both know, as I’ve said repeatedly in this thread, we must somehow make Ezekiel 18 and John 10 fit our theology and not teach opposites.

    I’m thoroughly convinced you are one of Jesus’ sheep.

    With apologies....

    John 10:27–29 (ESV): [Ken] hear[s] my voice, and I know [Ken], and [Ken] follow[s] me. 28*I give [Ken] eternal life, and [Ken] will never perish, and no one will snatch [Ken] out of my hand. 29*My Father, who has given [Ken] to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch [Ken] out of the Father’s hand.

    Is anything in there wrong?

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

  3. #48
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Originally Posted by TrustGzus

    John 10:27–29 (ESV): [Ken] hear[s] my voice, and I know [Ken], and [Ken] follow[s] me. 28*I give [Ken] eternal life, and [Ken] will never perish, and no one will snatch [Ken] out of my hand. 29*My Father, who has given [Ken] to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch [Ken] out of the Father’s hand.

    Is anything in there wrong?
    The sheep that strayed (went back to iniquity, stopped abiding), was this sheep snatched out of Jesus' hand (not it's will to leave) or did it wander away of it's own free will?

    With this asked now, I don't see anything wrong in your post. Nothing can take me unwillingly from Jesus' hand and by abiding, I will reap salvation. But that wandering sheep is not a wandering tare or a wandering goat and "IF" the sheep that CHOOSES to wander does not turn back to Jesus, even when Jesus is saying, come back... the scriptures are clear. Such a sheep will not reap salvation.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    The sheep that strayed (went back to iniquity, stopped abiding), was this sheep snatched out of Jesus' hand (not it's will to leave) or did it wander away of it's own free will?

    With this asked now, I don't see anything wrong in your post. Nothing can take me unwillingly from Jesus' hand and by abiding, I will reap salvation. But that wandering sheep is not a wandering tare or a wandering goat and "IF" the sheep that CHOOSES to wander does not turn back to Jesus, even when Jesus is saying, come back... the scriptures are clear. Such a sheep will not reap salvation.
    I see a couple problems.

    First

    Jesus said no will snatch Ken out of his hand.
    His Father is greater than all and no one will snatch Ken from the Father’s hand.

    No one will snatch Ken.
    Ken is some one.
    Ken will not snatch Ken out of their hand.

    Second

    Let’s for some reason we grant your line of thinking. There are still two other lines.

    Jesus gave Ken eternal life.
    What does eternal mean?
    How long is eternal?
    If Ken lives for 45 years and then perishes, is that eternal life or was that 45-year life?
    If what you say is true, eternal does not mean eternal and Jesus did not give eternal life.

    Ken will never perish. What does that mean? What does never mean?
    Ken chooses to wander and perishes.
    How did Ken never perish?
    Ken did not “never perish”, rather Ken perished.

    Please rescue the words of Jesus from your theology and explain what “I give Ken eternal life and Ken will never perish” really means and how it is simply not a false claim if you wander and perish.

    How could Jesus be clearer? You want to take the words of a Jewish priest/prophet to the Jews in captivity and take a line he said and make these statements from Jesus mean the exact opposite of what they say. How do you pull this off?

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

  5. #50
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    I see a couple problems.

    First

    Jesus said no will snatch Ken out of his hand.
    His Father is greater than all and no one will snatch Ken from the Father’s hand.

    No one will snatch Ken.
    Ken is some one.
    Ken will not snatch Ken out of their hand.
    Again, the sheep that wandered willingly walked out of His hand, it was not snatched. Ken, can turn from God. The tare can't turn from God, the goat can't turn from God, only the sheep can turn from God.

    Second

    Let’s for some reason we grant your line of thinking. There are still two other lines.

    Jesus gave Ken eternal life.
    What does eternal mean?
    How long is eternal?
    If Ken lives for 45 years and then perishes, is that eternal life or was that 45-year life?
    If what you say is true, eternal does not mean eternal and Jesus did not give eternal life.
    Even the tare/goat HAS eternal life... so yes, as a sheep that turns from God is still eternal. The difference is by abiding eternity is with God and by choosing to stop abiding, eternity in separation from God.

    Ken will never perish. What does that mean? What does never mean?
    Ken chooses to wander and perishes.
    How did Ken never perish?
    Ken did not “never perish”, rather Ken perished.
    A true defining of "perish" needs to be understood.


    Please rescue the words of Jesus from your theology and explain what “I give Ken eternal life and Ken will never perish” really means and how it is simply not a false claim if you wander and perish.
    Never perish "IF" I remain faithful to Him. He will remain faithful to me, all His promises WILL happen "IF" I never choose to turn away. Just as we see in the scriptures, had ALL of Israel remained faithful to Him, ALL would be saved.

    How could Jesus be clearer? You want to take the words of a Jewish priest/prophet to the Jews in captivity and take a line he said and make these statements from Jesus mean the exact opposite of what they say. How do you pull this off?
    Joe, those words that the prophet spoke, IS God speaking and the prophet is only the loudspeaker (oracle). God doesn't change and Jesus is perfectly clear.

    How can you say that God picks and chooses who will be saved when scripture says ALL can be saved "IF" whosoever believes?

    The best analogy I know is the captain of a boat coming up beside 100 drowning people and since He sacrified for all of them, He tosses out 100 life preservers. He informs ALL 100, they can be saved if they choose to hold onto the preserver. Only 10 believe the captain and grab a preserver immediately, but the captain is patient and waits for more to take a preserver. Some never choose to take a preserver, some take a preserver and in time, they let go. All the while the captain is warning those who took a preserver to NOT let go. Those who took one but let got, the captain keeps pressing the preserver into their face so they can turn back and take it back and hold on. Some do, some don't. Then the day comes... He hauls in all the preservers and only 30 have people holding on and He sails away with them. Those who held on, forever with Him and those who didn't take a preserver or who had but let go and never took one back to hold onto, forever separated.

    This is what scripture reveals.

    Scripture does not reveal that this captain looks out at the 100 people and only sacrificed for 30 of them and thus, only has the ability to provide 30 preservers and oh by the way, PICKS which 30 will get the preserver.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  6. #51
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Again, the sheep that wandered willingly walked out of His hand, it was not snatched. Ken, can turn from God. The tare can't turn from God, the goat can't turn from God, only the sheep can turn from God.
    Here I choose to Trust Jesus.
    Ken can turn from following God, but he cannot "unsave" himself. In my entire life as a Christian I've rarely seen a genuine Christian seem to truly apostasize in the sense of completely denying Jesus. I've seen a person appear to apostasize only to find out it wasn't a genuine apostasy from the faith--only from the lifestyle.

    I don't agree that tares and goats can't turn from God. Tares and goats can indeed embrace Christ and the knowledge of salvation, as well as a limited experience of salvation. But salvation is more than knowledge and more than experience. It is a "heart change." Goats do not make a heart change--they only want and get the spiritual experience, along with the knowledge, and can actually teach the truth. They just don't follow the whole truth with their heart.

    Sheep do. Sheep are truly saved. They don't just have the knowledge and the experience. They have the heart change. They've been "born again."

    Sheep can backslide. They cannot become "unsaved."

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug
    Even the tare/goat HAS eternal life... so yes, as a sheep that turns from God is still eternal. The difference is by abiding eternity is with God and by choosing to stop abiding, eternity in separation from God.
    I do not believe a tare/goat has eternal life. Eternal Life does not equal eternal existence. Even the damned have eternal existence, but do not have eternal life. "Eternal life" is a quality of life that is associated with the life of Christ. Only the saved have it. The goats may experience the life of Christ, and have a knowledge about it. But they do not actually have it. They do not actually change their heart, which is required in order to actually have eternal life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug
    A true defining of "perish" needs to be understood.

    Never perish "IF" I remain faithful to Him. He will remain faithful to me, all His promises WILL happen "IF" I never choose to turn away. Just as we see in the scriptures, had ALL of Israel remained faithful to Him, ALL would be saved.

    Joe, those words that the prophet spoke, IS God speaking and the prophet is only the loudspeaker (oracle). God doesn't change and Jesus is perfectly clear.

    How can you say that God picks and chooses who will be saved when scripture says ALL can be saved "IF" whosoever believes?
    God picks and chooses who is to be saved despite the fact God would have all to be saved, despite the fact He wished all would choose to be saved. But not all choose to change their heart. God in fact gives *all men* the opportunity to know what salvation is, the ability to experience what it is like.

    But He also knows that not all are the product of His original word. Some have come into the world and are the product of the path taken by autonomous human beings who have not followed the path of God.

    Children thus born in an autonomous environment (a circumstance known only by God) choose autonomy over the lordship of Christ. Only children born by the word of God will persevere in the path of God's word. They may go astray, but God will always restore them. His word cannot fail.

    It is somewhat different than the angels. The angels chose to depart from God's word, and chose to never return. Men, in embracing God's word can fail and be forgiven.

    That's the way I see it. People expose satanic rebellion as being without excuse. Some men, chosen by God's word, repent. Angels don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug
    The best analogy I know is the captain of a boat coming up beside 100 drowning people and since He sacrified for all of them, He tosses out 100 life preservers. He informs ALL 100, they can be saved if they choose to hold onto the preserver. Only 10 believe the captain and grab a preserver immediately, but the captain is patient and waits for more to take a preserver. Some never choose to take a preserver, some take a preserver and in time, they let go. All the while the captain is warning those who took a preserver to NOT let go. Those who took one but let got, the captain keeps pressing the preserver into their face so they can turn back and take it back and hold on. Some do, some don't. Then the day comes... He hauls in all the preservers and only 30 have people holding on and He sails away with them. Those who held on, forever with Him and those who didn't take a preserver or who had but let go and never took one back to hold onto, forever separated.

    This is what scripture reveals.

    Scripture does not reveal that this captain looks out at the 100 people and only sacrificed for 30 of them and thus, only has the ability to provide 30 preservers and oh by the way, PICKS which 30 will get the preserver.
    Yes, God sacrificed for all 100 people. And all 100 people may take hold of the life preservers. But the point is, it isn't just taking hold of the life preservers, which is the equivalent of coming to the knowledge of salvation and experiencing Christ's spirituality. More, it is choosing to change their hearts, in order to be born again. Those who have been chosen by the word of God will indeed respond to the Shepherd's voice, and be born again. They will choose to change their hearts. And they will never let go of the life preservers. They may flub up life, or even out of weakness return to their sins. But in their hearts they can never "unchoose" the Christ who saved them. They may fall in weakness. But Christ will always forgive those who have chosen him as their redeemer.

    Others will fall away and completely separate from they faith they have understood to be true. But having never changed their hearts they are not giving up real salvation--only the knowledge of salvation. This is true apostasy, a complete turning from the faith to reject the salvation they knew existed. I've seen many like this. Even then, those who have had even the *knowledge* of salvation find it hard to completely turn away. But those who do can become the worst kind of monsters. That's what Satan did.

  7. #52
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    There is positively nothing in John 10 that contradicts the truth that it’s not Gods will that any perish, but it’s His will that all be saved. I feel sorry for those who cannot see that.
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Again, the sheep that wandered willingly walked out of His hand, it was not snatched. Ken, can turn from God. The tare can't turn from God, the goat can't turn from God, only the sheep can turn from God.



    Even the tare/goat HAS eternal life... so yes, as a sheep that turns from God is still eternal. The difference is by abiding eternity is with God and by choosing to stop abiding, eternity in separation from God.



    A true defining of "perish" needs to be understood.


    Never perish "IF" I remain faithful to Him. He will remain faithful to me, all His promises WILL happen "IF" I never choose to turn away. Just as we see in the scriptures, had ALL of Israel remained faithful to Him, ALL would be saved.

    Joe, those words that the prophet spoke, IS God speaking and the prophet is only the loudspeaker (oracle). God doesn't change and Jesus is perfectly clear.

    How can you say that God picks and chooses who will be saved when scripture says ALL can be saved "IF" whosoever believes?

    The best analogy I know is the captain of a boat coming up beside 100 drowning people and since He sacrified for all of them, He tosses out 100 life preservers. He informs ALL 100, they can be saved if they choose to hold onto the preserver. Only 10 believe the captain and grab a preserver immediately, but the captain is patient and waits for more to take a preserver. Some never choose to take a preserver, some take a preserver and in time, they let go. All the while the captain is warning those who took a preserver to NOT let go. Those who took one but let got, the captain keeps pressing the preserver into their face so they can turn back and take it back and hold on. Some do, some don't. Then the day comes... He hauls in all the preservers and only 30 have people holding on and He sails away with them. Those who held on, forever with Him and those who didn't take a preserver or who had but let go and never took one back to hold onto, forever separated.

    This is what scripture reveals.

    Scripture does not reveal that this captain looks out at the 100 people and only sacrificed for 30 of them and thus, only has the ability to provide 30 preservers and oh by the way, PICKS which 30 will get the preserver.
    Hey Ken,

    In order to keep this more on a dialogue level rather than exchanging term papers and having focus all over, let me target one part of your reply that is very problematic.

    You wrote....

    Even the tare/goat HAS eternal life.

    Compare that to what Jesus says in John.

    John 10:27–28 (ESV): My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28*I give them eternal life,

    What meaning is left here if we interpret this passage as you describe eternal life? What is Jesus giving his sheep if yards and goats already have eternal life?

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    “Yards” should be “tares”. My phone did an autocorrect that I didn’t catch.

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Here I choose to Trust Jesus.
    Ken can turn from following God, but he cannot "unsave" himself.
    I agree. Just as I can't save myself, I also cannot unsave myself either.

    It is God who saves those who believe and abide until the end. It is also God who cuts off those who believe and abide but have chosen to stop abiding.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  11. #56
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    Hey Ken,

    In order to keep this more on a dialogue level rather than exchanging term papers and having focus all over, let me target one part of your reply that is very problematic.

    You wrote....

    Even the tare/goat HAS eternal life.

    Compare that to what Jesus says in John.

    John 10:27–28 (ESV): My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28*I give them eternal life,

    What meaning is left here if we interpret this passage as you describe eternal life? What is Jesus giving his sheep if yards and goats already have eternal life?
    I should have left the statement as tares and goats ARE eternal, instead of saying they have eternal life.

    The context of Jesus' lesson is about eternal life with Him, not separating them (eternal death), from Him.

    I can put in all the scriptures that point out eternal punishment/death to prove ALL of mankind is eternal, either as "Life" with God or "punishment/death," apart from God...
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    I should have left the statement as tares and goats ARE eternal, instead of saying they have eternal life.

    The context of Jesus' lesson is about eternal life with Him, not separating them (eternal death), from Him.

    I can put in all the scriptures that point out eternal punishment/death to prove ALL of mankind is eternal, either as "Life" with God or "punishment/death," apart from God...
    Yes, we agree that all will continue to exist.

    You are bringing a theology to the text. You would say the same of me but here’s a serious difference. Put yourself in the shoes of someone that is at the event of Jesus speaking in John 10.

    I give the eternal life and they shall never perish.

    Jesus adds no “if”. You do that in your theology.

    Standing at his feet that day, what do you walk away with?

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Originally Posted by TrustGzus

    Standing at his feet that day, what do you walk away with?
    This is what I go away with:

    Originally Posted by TrustGzus

    John 10:27–29 (ESV): [Ken] hear[s] my voice, and I know [Ken], and [Ken] follow[s] me. 28*I give [Ken] eternal life, and [Ken] will never perish, and no one will snatch [Ken] out of my hand. 29*My Father, who has given [Ken] to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch [Ken] out of the Father’s hand.




    v27: "IF" [Ken] follow's me...

    "THEN" v28, I give [Ken] eternal life.

    These verses are one of the most CLASSIC "if/then" statements by Christ. Later Jesus goes MORE into detail in chapter 15 of how this "if/then" works.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  14. #59
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    Feb 2006
    Location
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    This is what I go away with:



    v27: "IF" [Ken] follow's me...

    "THEN" v28, I give [Ken] eternal life.

    These verses are one of the most CLASSIC "if/then" statements by Christ.
    There is no “if” anywhere in there.

    John 10:27–29 (ESV):
    My sheep hear my voice,
    and I know them,
    and they follow me.
    I give them eternal life,
    and they will never perish,
    and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all,
    and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

    No “if”. No “then”.

    So what do you hear that day?

    How do you justify adding those words?

    Also, back to I give them eternal life. You acknowledge it’s not what the tares and wolves have. So he gives his sheep life. What does the adjective “eternal” mean? If they perish, is it “eternal”?

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    There is no “if” anywhere in there.

    John 10:27–29 (ESV):
    My sheep hear my voice,
    and I know them,
    and they follow me.
    I give them eternal life,
    and they will never perish,
    and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all,
    and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

    No “if”. No “then”.

    So what do you hear that day?

    How do you justify adding those words?
    Not about adding the words, it is about understand my part in relation to God's part. If I do then He does.

    Also, back to I give them eternal life. You acknowledge it’s not what the tares and wolves have. So he gives his sheep life. What does the adjective “eternal” mean? If they perish, is it “eternal”?
    Yes, what "perish" means in context is eternal in nature. For those who abide to the end, "life+ = with God. For those who never started to abide or stopped abiding, then eternal "death" = separation from God.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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