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Thread: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

  1. #61
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    There is no “if” anywhere in there.

    John 10:27–29 (ESV):
    My sheep hear my voice,
    and I know them,
    and they follow me.
    I give them eternal life,
    and they will never perish,
    and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all,
    and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

    No “if”. No “then”.

    So what do you hear that day?

    How do you justify adding those words?

    Also, back to I give them eternal life. You acknowledge it’s not what the tares and wolves have. So he gives his sheep life. What does the adjective “eternal” mean? If they perish, is it “eternal”?
    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Not about adding the words, it is about understand my part in relation to God's part. If I do then He does.

    Yes, what "perish" means in context is eternal in nature. For those who abide to the end, "life+ = with God. For those who never started to abide or stopped abiding, then eternal "death" = separation from God.
    Your part?

    Back up. You said this is a “classic” if/then passage.

    How can it be a classic if/then passage since the word “if” is never used and the word “then” is never used. Jesus is stating categorical facts with no if/then hypothetical conditions.

    1) My sheep know my voice
    2) and I know them
    2) and they follow me (no “if” they follow me....just “they follow”)
    4) I give them eternal life
    5) and they will never perish
    6) and no one will snatch them out of my hand
    7) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all,
    8) and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

    Not a single “if”.

    Where in there is your part?

    Find the conditional clause in that text.

    Picture yourself in the crowd. You’ve never heard Jesus. You have no epistles. No gospels. None of them are written.

    Jesus says not just “I give them life” but “I give them eternal life”.

    What does eternal mean?

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

  2. #62
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    Your part?

    Back up. You said this is a “classic” if/then passage.

    How can it be a classic if/then passage since the word “if” is never used and the word “then” is never used. Jesus is stating categorical facts with no if/then hypothetical conditions.

    1) My sheep know my voice
    2) and I know them
    2) and they follow me (no “if” they follow me....just “they follow”)
    4) I give them eternal life
    5) and they will never perish
    6) and no one will snatch them out of my hand
    7) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all,
    8) and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

    Not a single “if”.

    Where in there is your part?

    Find the conditional clause in that text.

    Picture yourself in the crowd. You’ve never heard Jesus. You have no epistles. No gospels. None of them are written.
    Joe, this is how false understanding is established... isolating "something" said and never allowing context. If the entire Bible was those two verses, I'd agree with you 100%. But Jesus goes on into more detail as you follow through with all His lessons and words.

    The context of what Jesus says in "2" verses is further established in time, John 15 to be specific for one example of context, of what those 2 verses mean.

    Jesus says not just “I give them life” but “I give them eternal life”.

    What does eternal mean?
    By listening to MORE that He says, this eternal "life" is about being "with" Him for eternity. Those who do not believe or who stop believing (abiding), Jesus does not give them eternal "life", He gives them eternal "death/punishment".
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  3. #63
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The problem with this is, the Scriptures indicate we *already have* eternal life--at least those of us who have more than a superficial knowledge of Christ. So although we may inherit "eternal life" in the future, in some sense we already have a down payment on that inheritance.

    Let me emphasize that people can have a *real knowledge* of Christ and still be superficial in their connection with the Lord in heart matters. Unless someone allows their heart to be changed by the living Christ they are not truly saved.

    Acquired knowledge from God can truly be received and imparted by anybody. But a heart change is an individual decision that goes beyond that. That's why I call some forms of Christianity "superficial."
    Thanks for providing answers (highlighted) to the heart of my opposition to the "once saved, forever saved" argument. Knowledge of Christ alone whether real or otherwise isn't enough unless the heart is changed by that knowledge. And that change must remain unto the end - till death ends that life. When a believer who knows Christ backslides or turns away from the Lord for reasons to known to them, e.g. the inability to endure persecution, perceived failing of the Lord to grant them a certain request, etc. and dies in that state, such will lose his salvation.

    Some get disillusioned and disenchanted after praying for certain things, e.g. healing from illness, a child and a myriad of stuff. Should such withdraw from interacting with fellow believers that could strengthen and encourage them, such a situation could mark the beginning of a dark journey where the promises of Christ are questioned. And please don't tell me that being saved makes one impervious to such weakness.

    With regards to "knowledge of Christ," Satan and most of his agents (human and spirits) also know who Jesus is. Does it mean they are saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The Scriptures say we already have eternal life. We are already "sheep." And the sheep will *never* perish, according to Jesus. We do *not* become sheep at the end of our lives. Rather, we are already sheep, so that we are kept by the Lord.

    It is said by Arminians, including my brother, that we have "eternal life" only insofar as we keep Jesus in our heart, because as the Scriptures say, he is eternal life. If we lose that essence of eternal life, we lose our salvation.

    But again, the Scriptures indicate that God will *never* allow His sheep to perish. They would have to stop being sheep for this to happen. And that defies the entire implication that God will *not* allow that to happen.
    Once again, permit my folly. But I am 100% with your brother and the Armenians on this: "It is said by Arminians, including my brother, that we have "eternal life" only insofar as we keep Jesus in our heart, because as the Scriptures say, he is eternal life. If we lose that essence of eternal life, we lose our salvation".

    I don't believe that God removes our 'free will' when we become saved. So a saved man can turn away from God if he fails to endure the trials and tribulations that come his way in his Christian journey. I'm not sure it is written anywhere in scripture that God will say "hay, where are going, I won't let you blaspheme or deny me"! As I see it, the saved are tested of their faith in Christ daily, but not all pass the test.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    That may be because judgment is largely the domain of God--not us. We facilitate salvation and judgment only by the revelation of God. Since we don't know everything about everybody, why even try to go beyond what Christ said, namely that he will *never* lose any of his sheep?
    My position that we could potentially lose our salvation if we fail to abide in Christ to the end is not an indictment or judgment on anyone. Rather, it is a cautious warning. Many are risking their salvation on the false premise that grace covers their repeated sins which underscores their notion that nothing will affect their eternal redemption. Forget this nonsense in our modern society that kids should be physically reprimanded, but in the age we grew up, if you step out of line, your parents will not hesitate to give you a clip behind the ears for your own good. The scriptures call it 'chastisement. The point is that the fear of chastisement keeps the child on the straight and narrow. I'm not saying it works all the time, a stubborn will still do as he pleases.

    My point is that the fear that being saved doesn't protect from whatever we do contrary to Christ, will keep us focused on Christ to till death.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Granted, we are talking about people who we know have been truly saved--not just "nominal Christians." Undoubtedly many of these have gone astray. Sin can attack anybody, and people are bound to fail in varying degrees. It isn't my job to judge their eternal status except to believe what Jesus said--he will "never" lose any of them.
    Your comments suggest that my opposition is a *judgment* which I have already clarified as not. On the contrary, I am pointing out what's in the scriptures in contrast to the popular unfounded belief of a get out of jail free card. On this basis, I believe that your understanding of "never lose any of them" is incorrect.

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Just a moment ago you said you weren't referring to people with a superficial knowledge of Christ. But some of these people may have been involved in "departing from the faith." There is a difference between departing from righteousness and departing from faith. As I pointed out, some Christians who outwardly appeared to depart from their faith actually did not, but only sought to cover up the shame of their apostasy.

    The record of Israel's apostasy is clear in the OT Scriptures. They lusted after other gods, because they were weak to the lusts of the flesh. Some truly abandoned their faith. Others just fell into human lust. It is not my purpose to say what individuals were truly apostates from their faith and which among them simply capitulated to the lusts of the flesh! Both David and Solomon capitulated to the lusts of the flesh, and were not apostates from the faith! If Solomon never divorced all of his 1000 or so pagan wives I still believe his faith and salvation remained intact! Samson went to a prostitute, and gave up his integrity to the point where he died. But we know he kept both his faith and his salvation!
    Brother, this is not an academic discussion. Nobody knows who has departed from faith and righteousness - only Jesus. And I am talking about something that only Jesus can judge which is those who remain his sheep to the end and those who didn't. If one becomes ashamed of their apostasy, it means they are repentant.

    There is one ingredient you seem to miss from my position and that is that to lose salvation, one must be engaged in a protracted transgression even to the point of death. This excludes some of the examples you cited who were one-offs. I've said repeatedly, that God doesn't just snatch our salvation away because of one or two indiscretions. That's not what apostasy or backsliding looks like. E.g. was Samson apostate, did he lose faith in God? NO. And neither was David.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Paul is saying that we *should not* make an excuse for licentiousness. But it happens. To say that Grace cannot cover *all sin* is a dangerous position to take. Backsliding can indeed be forgiven, as the example of OT Israel indicates over and over again.
    1. The dangerous position rather is the assumption that grace covers all willful sin. If you doubt, see Hebrew 10:26.
    2. Backsliding will indeed be forgiven when the backslider comes to repentance. But what do you think happens when that backslider dies without repentance?
    3. In your eagerness to promote the "once saved, ever saved" doctrine, you are ignoring the warning scriptures that point to the contrary.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    There are bondages and fears that hinder people from coming to repentance. It is an obstacle to overcome. Some succeed and others don't. But all can be forgiven. The point is, we should try to succeed, and not just be forgiven!
    Since I've been studying the Bible, I haven't found where it says the sinner (whether the saved who lapsed into apostasy or the never saved) who fails to repent will be saved. So be careful what you preach, brother. The scriptures never said serving the Lord is a bed of roses and that's what you guys seem to preach with this once saved, always saved malarkey.

    Remain blessed.

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Thanks for providing answers (highlighted) to the heart of my opposition to the "once saved, forever saved" argument. Knowledge of Christ alone whether real or otherwise isn't enough unless the heart is changed by that knowledge. And that change must remain unto the end - till death ends that life. When a believer who knows Christ backslides or turns away from the Lord for reasons to known to them, e.g. the inability to endure persecution, perceived failing of the Lord to grant them a certain request, etc. and dies in that state, such will lose his salvation.

    Some get disillusioned and disenchanted after praying for certain things, e.g. healing from illness, a child and a myriad of stuff. Should such withdraw from interacting with fellow believers that could strengthen and encourage them, such a situation could mark the beginning of a dark journey where the promises of Christ are questioned. And please don't tell me that being saved makes one impervious to such weakness.

    With regards to "knowledge of Christ," Satan and most of his agents (human and spirits) also know who Jesus is. Does it mean they are saved?



    Once again, permit my folly. But I am 100% with your brother and the Armenians on this: "It is said by Arminians, including my brother, that we have "eternal life" only insofar as we keep Jesus in our heart, because as the Scriptures say, he is eternal life. If we lose that essence of eternal life, we lose our salvation".

    I don't believe that God removes our 'free will' when we become saved. So a saved man can turn away from God if he fails to endure the trials and tribulations that come his way in his Christian journey. I'm not sure it is written anywhere in scripture that God will say "hay, where are going, I won't let you blaspheme or deny me"! As I see it, the saved are tested of their faith in Christ daily, but not all pass the test.



    My position that we could potentially lose our salvation if we fail to abide in Christ to the end is not an indictment or judgment on anyone. Rather, it is a cautious warning. Many are risking their salvation on the false premise that grace covers their repeated sins which underscores their notion that nothing will affect their eternal redemption. Forget this nonsense in our modern society that kids should be physically reprimanded, but in the age we grew up, if you step out of line, your parents will not hesitate to give you a clip behind the ears for your own good. The scriptures call it 'chastisement. The point is that the fear of chastisement keeps the child on the straight and narrow. I'm not saying it works all the time, a stubborn will still do as he pleases.

    My point is that the fear that being saved doesn't protect from whatever we do contrary to Christ, will keep us focused on Christ to till death.



    Your comments suggest that my opposition is a *judgment* which I have already clarified as not. On the contrary, I am pointing out what's in the scriptures in contrast to the popular unfounded belief of a get out of jail free card. On this basis, I believe that your understanding of "never lose any of them" is incorrect.
    Trivalee, do you believed you are saved by ceasing to sin?

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    Picture yourself in the crowd. You’ve never heard Jesus. You have no epistles. No gospels. None of them are written.

    Jesus says not just “I give them life” but “I give them eternal life”.

    What does eternal mean?
    Let's execute this exercise with this word that Jesus gave:

    3v16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    There is no clause here either. WHOEVER that believes. Meaning what...?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Brother, this is not an academic discussion. Nobody knows who has departed from faith and righteousness - only Jesus. And I am talking about something that only Jesus can judge which is those who remain his sheep to the end and those who didn't. If one becomes ashamed of their apostasy, it means they are repentant.
    I wasn't aware that sheep can change from sheep to goats, and back to sheep again? Are you saying that there are sheep who don't remain sheep to the end? In that case, were they really "sheep" to begin with? As I hear Jesus say it, those who are sheep presently will remain sheep to the end, ie the sheep that are now will "never perish." I don't see what is "non-academic" about that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    There is one ingredient you seem to miss from my position and that is that to lose salvation, one must be engaged in a protracted transgression even to the point of death. This excludes some of the examples you cited who were one-offs. I've said repeatedly, that God doesn't just snatch our salvation away because of one or two indiscretions. That's not what apostasy or backsliding looks like. E.g. was Samson apostate, did he lose faith in God? NO. And neither was David.
    So that is your measure--not mine. A number of God's People have been God's People to the death, while it was even their sin that caused their death. That's why I used the example of Samson. His sin brought about his death. And this did not cause him to disqualify for someone who repented.

    My definition of "apostasy" has 2 different kinds in play.

    1) Someone who apostacized from the faith, and completely turns against Jesus in the heart, nevermore to return. This person, in my book, had the knowledge of salvation, had experienced the spirituality of Christ, and yet never completely turned over the heart to Christ. It then became possible to turn away from both the knowledge of and spirituality of Christ.

    2) Someone who begins walking the walk, and then capitulates to sin out of weakness, and appears to no longer live by Christian standards. Perhaps there is even a denial that he is a Christian any longer, either out of embarrassment or out of a lack of confidence. This person is viewed within the heart by God, and is seen as repentant, despite his lack of courage. He does not really like who he has become, and has simply lost his way, being betrayed by circumstances outside of him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    1. The dangerous position rather is the assumption that grace covers all willful sin. If you doubt, see Hebrew 10:26.
    2. Backsliding will indeed be forgiven when the backslider comes to repentance. But what do you think happens when that backslider dies without repentance?
    3. In your eagerness to promote the "once saved, ever saved" doctrine, you are ignoring the warning scriptures that point to the contrary.
    I'm not ignoring Heb 10 at all--I just have a different interpretation of it. If those who, by the heart, turn against the sacrifice of Christ, there remains no other means of repentance for them. It doesn't mean repentance is ever impossible. It just means that if Christ is rejected, there is no other source of salvation available for them.

    And there are indeed people like this, who begin as Christians, have experienced what it is, and then are drawn away by the enticements of the world. They become angry about the conviction and guilt and turn with a vengeance against all aspects of the love of Christ. They have no other source of love available to them. They are not ever going to find another means of obtaining this love.

    But I agree that there is a danger in believing grace is too easy. We can step across the line, thinking that a merciful, kind God isn't going to deal with us too badly. And it isn't always a matter of salvation. It's also a matter of Christian discipline.

    To take God's standards too lightly is indeed a dangerous step to take. My point is that it is equally dangerous to judge others as beyond the reach of God's mercy, simply because they've turned away. We should never forget the parable of the "lost sheep." Christians who have apparently "walked away" may never have truly walked away in their heart--they may have kept alive the standard of love that Christ shares, and only seem to have lost it in the darkness of their personal failures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    Since I've been studying the Bible, I haven't found where it says the sinner (whether the saved who lapsed into apostasy or the never saved) who fails to repent will be saved. So be careful what you preach, brother. The scriptures never said serving the Lord is a bed of roses and that's what you guys seem to preach with this once saved, always saved malarkey.
    Remain blessed.
    Jesus said it, brother. You have yet to refute it.

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Let's execute this exercise with this word that Jesus gave:

    3v16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    There is no clause here either. WHOEVER that believes. Meaning what...?
    It means exactly what whoever means.

    Merriam-Webster.....

    who•ev•er \hü-ˈe-vər\ pronoun
    (13th century)
    : whatever person : no matter who — used in any grammatical relation except that of a possessive 〈sells to whoever has the money to buy〉

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    It means exactly what whoever means.

    Merriam-Webster.....

    who•ev•er \hü-ˈe-vər\ pronoun
    (13th century)
    : whatever person : no matter who — used in any grammatical relation except that of a possessive 〈sells to whoever has the money to buy〉
    Cool. Can "whatever person, no matter who" choose to believe, unto Christ?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Cool. Can "whatever person, no matter who" choose to believe, unto Christ?

    No. The verse doesn’t speak to ability to choose to a believe. The verse taken at face value says “whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

    So does a person believe?

    Yes! Then they will not perish but have eternal life.

    No. Then they will perish and and not have eternal life.

    Or as verse 18 reads, “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”

    The verse says nothing about ability to believe.

    Let’s use an example that isn’t our hot button topic.

    This weekend: At Main & 1st at the Everyone’s Favorite Country Club.....

    Whoever drives a golf ball 500 yards receives a free membership for one year.

    That says nothing about ability. Does saying those words mean anyone can actually hit a ball 500 yards? No. Maybe some can. Maybe everybody can. Maybe nobody can. It doesn’t speak to any of those options. It simply lists the criteria for winning the membership at the club.

    Did I hit a ball 500 yards? No. I don’t get a membership.

    Did Ken hit a ball 500 yards? Yes. Ken gets a membership.

    Same with John 3:16.

    Does Ken believe? Yes. Ken will not perish but have eternal life.
    Does Joe believe? Yes........

    Does Bob believe? No.

    It says nothing about ability. It’s completely silent on the issue. If we interpret it to mean everyone can, we run into problems in 15 minutes as we continue reading John and run into passages that clearly say the opposite - that not everyone can.

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Originally Posted by TrustGzus

    It says nothing about ability. It’s completely silent on the issue. If we interpret it to mean everyone can,
    Without any other part of the Bible, the verse says that "whoever" believes, is saved. Meaning the ability or availability (capacity?) to believe is available to ALL whoevers, otherwise NO whoevers, can believe. Who provides that availability to believe? Answer: part A of the verse: Answer: the Son who is given.

    we run into problems in 15 minutes as we continue reading John and run into passages that clearly say the opposite - that not everyone can.


    Which is why your previous exercise fails as well

    So where is the middle of the road?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    So where is the middle of the road?
    It’s not in Calvinism, Ken
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    John 3.16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
    John 3.36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
    John 4.14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.
    John 5.24 Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
    John 5.39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me
    John 6.27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.
    John 6.40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
    John 6.47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
    John 6.54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.


    So how can we distinguish the kind of belief that receives eternal life?
    1) John 3.16 implies a comprehension of what it meant for God to give His one and only Son Jesus for the sinful world. It is not a simple belief in the fact, but an inward resignation and acceptance of the love of God in giving His Son *for me.* I need to do something about it, and am, in fact, willing to do something about it.

    2) John 3.36 implies that when one truly believes in Jesus there will not be a future rejection of him. Belief in Christ is possible that later results in denial of him. This was not the kind of "belief" Jesus had in mind when he said those who believe in him have eternal life. True belief, by its very nature, perseveres.

    3) John 5.39 suggests that the kind of belief that comprehends the Scriptures is not necessarily the kind of faith in Jesus that brings eternal life. I would suggest that it's also possible to have belief in the NT Scriptures and in Jesus that is not genuine embrace of what Jesus truly represents. Belief in a doctrine or in a creed is not necessarily synonymous with faith unto eternal life.

    4) John 6.27 indicates that true belief is a matter of working for something that is truly internalized, which I characterize as the New Birth. Unless belief results in the "work that provides eternal food" it is not a true belief. True belief is internalized, in the form of character, and not just as an experience.

    Food is deeper than a drug. A drink, or a drug affects you as an experience. Both food and drink/drugs become part of you. But spiritual experience alone is not true belief, since you may believe in the experience, but not in the internalization of Christ in the form of good character.

    5) John 6.40 indicates true belief is a "looking to Jesus," indicating that there is both an understanding of him, along with a following of him. True belief is not transitory, nor a temporary following.

    6) John 6.54 indicates, like John 6.27, that true belief is a matter of understanding Jesus must be internalized, as food and drink, as imbibing both character change and spirituality.

    As you may be able to see, belief can be a choice given to all. But the way one chooses to believe determines whether eternal life is really had. Many of those who believe, who do not fully appreciate what believing in Jesus is, don't receive eternal life. Only those who truly believe in Jesus, as the one who died for our sins, who came to us so that we internalize him, will obtain eternal life, both in this life and in the next.

  14. #74
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    It’s not in Calvinism, Ken
    TrustGzus said it perfectly well. Those sheep who belong to Jesus will *never perish.* They *have*--present tense--eternal life. Eternal life, by definition, will never be lost.

    Calvinism always assumes that all can make a choice, but that a choice may be nominal or real. The real choice always perseveres. A doubleminded, or indecisive, choice does not qualify for a "persevering faith." People may begin with a belief, but they must end with a *real faith,* ie a faith that internalizes the character and spirituality of Jesus, aka the New Birth.

    I'm not sure Calvinism vs Arminianism can be resolved. But I do believe that Calvinist churches have had less of a tendency to corrupt than Arminian churches. Limited Choice, or Predestination, does not capitulate to rationalization for sinning as much as detractors say. On the other hand, Free Choice, or Arminianism, has often led to a tendency to liberalize biblical doctrine. This, of course, may be debated.

  15. #75
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Originally Posted by ChangedByHim

    It’s not in Calvinism, Ken



    Hooah!

    Originally Posted by randyk

    TrustGzus said it perfectly well. Those sheep who belong to Jesus will *never perish.* They *have*--present tense--eternal life. Eternal life, by definition, will never be lost.

    Calvinism always assumes that all can make a choice, but that a choice may be nominal or real. The real choice always perseveres. A doubleminded, or indecisive, choice does not qualify for a "persevering faith." People may begin with a belief, but they must end with a *real faith,* ie a faith that internalizes the character and spirituality of Jesus, aka the New Birth.

    I'm not sure Calvinism vs Arminianism can be resolved. But I do believe that Calvinist churches have had less of a tendency to corrupt than Arminian churches. Limited Choice, or Predestination, does not capitulate to rationalization for sinning as much as detractors say. On the other hand, Free Choice, or Arminianism, has often led to a tendency to liberalize biblical doctrine. This, of course, may be debated.



    With all "isms" set on a shelf and only the Bible in hand, what is left in the middle of the road where ALL scriptures compliment/divide each other and don't conflict/contradict each other?

    As has been brought out in the thread, God does NOT want to see anyone perish. Meaning, not one person should say that Jesus' sacrifice was for only "some" people. Meaning, His death/resurrection is for ALL people. It is agreed upon, based on comments in this thread, that "whoever/whosoever" means every person (or ALL people), not some persons.

    So far so good?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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