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Thread: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

  1. #511

    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Great thread! It really gets us all thinking. Bless you all.

  2. #512
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    Before we get to the snatch part, we have to speak of the phrase “they will never perish”. Those words aren’t hard to understand. Try to read that verse like a virgin reading. First time ever. Without the theological baggage you and I carry.
    They will never perish.
    As a "virgin reader" I would note in what context the words "never perish" are mentioned. It is within the context of having been given eternal life. Once you have eternal life, then you will never perish. The one statement is clarifying and strengthening the other.
    The question therefore is WHEN does someone actually receive eternal life?
    Do we have eternal life NOW, or is it a PROMISE now, with the reality when He returns.

    Scripture consistently points to eternal life being given AFTER evening has come - Matt 20. It is when Jesus returns that the seal (or deposit / guarantee) of the Holy Spirit is then met with the change at the twinkling of an eye.

    The whole snatch part, shows that once we choose for God then no one, outside that contract between us, can split us apart.
    This is why scripture highlights that those who are in Him walk in the light. This is a confirmation for us that we are living IN that contractual state. It is NOT what makes the contract, nor what breaks the contract - for that is ONLY broken IF we choose to deny Him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Did they knew Him? Was it the Christ of the Bible or a christ they made for themselves? What did they believe?
    Then you make this about knowledge rather than relationship. I never knew you is about relationship WITH Him.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Please note that I said *predeterminism* is not compatible with "free will!" I fully agree that Predestination and Free Will are compatible with each other, because this is, in fact, my own position!
    I agree with you!

  3. #513
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Can a person be considered "enduring" at all, if they are never part of Him? Remember Christians are "warned" to endure to the end of their mortal life. So, when in that parable, some endure NOT to the end of their mortal life... how can they have begun to endure at all, if they were never a part of Him?
    To 'endure to the end' clearly applies to the believers and not the unbelieving. For how can they endure in a faith they never believed in?

  4. #514
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Boommm..... NEVER part of Him means never. Scripture says to examine oneself to see if they are of the faith, not that they've fallen from it.
    Only a believer can examine himself to ascertain whether he's still in Him according to 1 Cor 13:5. The unsaved cannot do that. And yes, a saved person who feels he's no longer in the right standing with God, can examine himself. Often, this is where repentance comes in because the one still enjoying the fruits of sin has no reason to examine himself or, even if he does, he will ignore his findings.

  5. #515
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Why can't someone endure for a time with the faith he thought he had? Meaning he had faith, but not faith of God. I do not agree with you that one cannot endure for a minute if not in Christ. The parable for one says otherwise.
    There's no such thing as "faith he thought he had" nor can one endure in Christ 'with a faith that is not in Christ'.

  6. #516
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    K, "you," "me" everyone was perishing at one time during our life. So, when you were perishing (before you believed), was the Gospel good or bad news for you or me?
    What if I believed from the first time I heard the "gospel" and never heard it when I was *perishing*? Was the gospel 'bad news' to me then?

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    I couldn't say for sure. But Paul could have been deceived. Using that logic should he have never took on Mark ?
    I suppose you are referring to the disagreement between Paul and Barnabas in Acts 15:39? There's nothing that suggests Paul was deceived nor that any of the apostles (Paul, Barnabas, Mark and Silas) involved was unsaved. FYI, believers can disagree and even argue among themselves. It doesn't mean they are unsaved.

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I suppose you are referring to the disagreement between Paul and Barnabas in Acts 15:39? There's nothing that suggests Paul was deceived nor that any of the apostles (Paul, Barnabas, Mark and Silas) involved was unsaved. FYI, believers can disagree and even argue among themselves. It doesn't mean they are unsaved.
    And it doesn't mean that they can't be deceived either.

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    And it doesn't mean that they can't be deceived either.
    Since that is nowhere inferred in the text, you are simply speculating and adding what is not stated.

  10. #520
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    Seems circular Kalahari ... if they can not be perishing ... then no need for a savior, or to be found or to be saved ...
    True. Kalahari's position can be confusing sometimes.

  11. #521
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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Since that is nowhere inferred in the text, you are simply speculating and adding what is not stated.
    Nowhere is found in the text that the Apostle's had a spidey sense either. Holy Spirit lead people in the early church were able to be deceived. That's in the scriptures and if you need me too I can post some, but surely that's something you know, right ?That's my point and nothing else.

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    True. Kalahari's position can be confusing sometimes.
    I reckon everyone who posts here can have a confusing position from time to time. At least Kalahari is consistent in his position, and it's a widely accepted position, whether I agree with it or not.

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I suppose you are referring to the disagreement between Paul and Barnabas in Acts 15:39? There's nothing that suggests Paul was deceived nor that any of the apostles (Paul, Barnabas, Mark and Silas) involved was unsaved. FYI, believers can disagree and even argue among themselves. It doesn't mean they are unsaved.
    I'm not attempting to say they are unsaved. Slug was referring to Demus having lost his salvation because Paul would have been able to detect if Demus were unsaved when he was working with him. Are you going to support that position ? You'll need to scroll back a good way to get the context of the debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Only a believer can examine himself to ascertain whether he's still in Him according to 1 Cor 13:5. The unsaved cannot do that. And yes, a saved person who feels he's no longer in the right standing with God, can examine himself. Often, this is where repentance comes in because the one still enjoying the fruits of sin has no reason to examine himself or, even if he does, he will ignore his findings.
    And how was what I said NOT in agreement with this statement ?

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    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    To 'endure to the end' clearly applies to the believers and not the unbelieving. For how can they endure in a faith they never believed in?
    My question is based solely on the scriptures saying some "endured" for a time... means, they were alive, in the Body, believers for a time. They failed to run the race to the end, meaning they did not abide for their entire lifetime.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  15. #525

    Re: Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Nowhere is found in the text that the Apostle's had a spidey sense either. Holy Spirit lead people in the early church were able to be deceived. That's in the scriptures and if you need me too I can post some, but surely that's something you know, right ?That's my point and nothing else.

    you just hit on the entire reason we need salvation.....because man was led astray even though Adam began in right standing with God , he didn't need salvation in the beginning.....he was deceived . Which is something Paul and Peter thouroughly warn Christians in the church , do not be deceived by false doctrines that will surely come into the chirch and lead many astray ....it's one of the consistent themes in the n.t. Even Jesus forewarned believers ..

    faith can be in what Gid set forth for salvation....or it can be based on deceptions , mis interpretations , intentional false doctrine ect...faith in the wrong things becomes doubt in the word of God , faith in Gods word blots out doubt....Adams first choice between good and evil was to believe what God had said , or what the enemy had said , even worse than this however is the deception of only hearing and refusing to,do , and thus deceiving our own selves James 1:22

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