Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 34

Thread: Building God's Kingdom

  1. #1

    Building God's Kingdom

    There was a sermon on the radio today, the pastor was talking about how Muslims attempt to expand their religion by forming societies, a law based society, the elites being the law enforcers, etc. as in the majority of the middle east.

    In contrast, Christianity's goal is to build God's Kingdom, not build a society.

    My thought was, on both sides of the political spectrum, the liberals who claim to be believers are doing just this, they are more concerned with society than they are with God's Kingdom. They are the social warriors who place sin above righteousness.

    Yet, the conservative groups do this, too, right? (I'm a conservative) We spend a vast amount of time wanting our government to do this or that, fighting against all the social warriors who want an anything goes society.

    Both sides are trying to build a society.

    What do you all have to say about this? Are we supposed to be in the political realm pushing agendas for our society? Should we rise above all of it or be involved?

    Thanks!

  2. #2

    Re: Building God's Kingdom

    I agree with you David. God's Kingdom is built on Christ and faith in him. God may use political systems, but his Kingdom is only entered by faith on Jesus, not by man made laws, agreements, or force.

  3. #3

    Re: Building God's Kingdom

    Faith in Jesus.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    11,263

    Re: Building God's Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    There was a sermon on the radio today, the pastor was talking about how Muslims attempt to expand their religion by forming societies, a law based society, the elites being the law enforcers, etc. as in the majority of the middle east.

    In contrast, Christianity's goal is to build God's Kingdom, not build a society.
    I have an issue with this. God's very 1st mission was a nation, a theocracy. It was clearly a "society."

    Why do we think that's changed today? Does God only want to save individuals, and then leave them in corrupt societies to be persecuted and abused endlessly?

    No, God's ideal is the Christian society. Unfortunately, God's Kingdom is being built in nations that are *not* Christian initially. Or they are attempting to be established in societies and nations that have apostacized away from Christianity. So we cannot always have a good society, even though we can have a few Christian individuals in that society.

    God is not just the God of individual salvation, but also the God of just societies. That's why He has promised a "Kingdom." His goal is not just a bunch of scattered individuals or Christian hermits. Rather, His ultimate aim is to gather Christians together in Christian societies, so that just laws exist and compassion is practiced, allowing Christians to live out their lives of faith in peace.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC
    My thought was, on both sides of the political spectrum, the liberals who claim to be believers are doing just this, they are more concerned with society than they are with God's Kingdom. They are the social warriors who place sin above righteousness.

    Yet, the conservative groups do this, too, right? (I'm a conservative) We spend a vast amount of time wanting our government to do this or that, fighting against all the social warriors who want an anything goes society.
    If you are a conservative in the U.S., as I am, you want *less government,* and are not trying to get government do as much politically! A strong central government is necessary, but leads, often, to corruption. The more absolute a government is, the more threatened it is with problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC
    Both sides are trying to build a society.

    What do you all have to say about this? Are we supposed to be in the political realm pushing agendas for our society? Should we rise above all of it or be involved?

    Thanks!
    Your priority, to save individuals, is the important beginning point. Without a redeemed spirituality we cannot practice or promote our views in society. But Christians, when they live by the Spirit, are very effective. They bring sinners under judgment, and they bring those who are open to salvation.

    In a bad society, the Christians will be rejected and persecuted. In a more "open" society, Christians can influence even unbelievers to do good things. Others they can bring, spiritually, into the Kingdom of God.

    The goal is, as I said, to bring both salvation and a just society. They are both important. Most important, however, is individual salvation.

  5. #5

    Re: Building God's Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I have an issue with this. God's very 1st mission was a nation, a theocracy. It was clearly a "society."

    Why do we think that's changed today? Does God only want to save individuals, and then leave them in corrupt societies to be persecuted and abused endlessly?

    No, God's ideal is the Christian society. Unfortunately, God's Kingdom is being built in nations that are *not* Christian initially. Or they are attempting to be established in societies and nations that have apostacized away from Christianity. So we cannot always have a good society, even though we can have a few Christian individuals in that society.

    God is not just the God of individual salvation, but also the God of just societies. That's why He has promised a "Kingdom." His goal is not just a bunch of scattered individuals or Christian hermits. Rather, His ultimate aim is to gather Christians together in Christian societies, so that just laws exist and compassion is practiced, allowing Christians to live out their lives of faith in peace.



    If you are a conservative in the U.S., as I am, you want *less government,* and are not trying to get government do as much politically! A strong central government is necessary, but leads, often, to corruption. The more absolute a government is, the more threatened it is with problems.



    Your priority, to save individuals, is the important beginning point. Without a redeemed spirituality we cannot practice or promote our views in society. But Christians, when they live by the Spirit, are very effective. They bring sinners under judgment, and they bring those who are open to salvation.

    In a bad society, the Christians will be rejected and persecuted. In a more "open" society, Christians can influence even unbelievers to do good things. Others they can bring, spiritually, into the Kingdom of God.

    The goal is, as I said, to bring both salvation and a just society. They are both important. Most important, however, is individual salvation.
    I think it has changed because the Israelites were promised land (a society), Christians were not. Church crosses all boundaries, nationalities, races and sex, and inside this their are different cultures, but it's universal.

    Building up a society (as in America) is not building the church - it's building society. There is a difference I think, if you were going to build a Christian society - whose culture would you institute? The Greeks? Afrikaans? The church is spiritual, not tangible.

  6. #6

    Re: Building God's Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I have an issue with this. God's very 1st mission was a nation, a theocracy. It was clearly a "society."

    Why do we think that's changed today? Does God only want to save individuals, and then leave them in corrupt societies to be persecuted and abused endlessly?

    No, God's ideal is the Christian society. Unfortunately, God's Kingdom is being built in nations that are *not* Christian initially. Or they are attempting to be established in societies and nations that have apostacized away from Christianity. So we cannot always have a good society, even though we can have a few Christian individuals in that society.

    God is not just the God of individual salvation, but also the God of just societies. That's why He has promised a "Kingdom." His goal is not just a bunch of scattered individuals or Christian hermits. Rather, His ultimate aim is to gather Christians together in Christian societies, so that just laws exist and compassion is practiced, allowing Christians to live out their lives of faith in peace.



    If you are a conservative in the U.S., as I am, you want *less government,* and are not trying to get government do as much politically! A strong central government is necessary, but leads, often, to corruption. The more absolute a government is, the more threatened it is with problems.



    Your priority, to save individuals, is the important beginning point. Without a redeemed spirituality we cannot practice or promote our views in society. But Christians, when they live by the Spirit, are very effective. They bring sinners under judgment, and they bring those who are open to salvation.

    In a bad society, the Christians will be rejected and persecuted. In a more "open" society, Christians can influence even unbelievers to do good things. Others they can bring, spiritually, into the Kingdom of God.

    The goal is, as I said, to bring both salvation and a just society. They are both important. Most important, however, is individual salvation.
    Why would God want to build up a Christian Society, when He's building His Church - across the whole world? Society is plagued by satan's world power, he is very organized in it, I really don't believe there is an existing prophecy claiming that while the Church is still on the earth, this world power of satan's will be destroyed, so why are we spending so much time arguing social justice warriors and not focused on the Church? Just asking, I don't see it being the same thing.
    Thanks.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    11,263

    Re: Building God's Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    I think it has changed because the Israelites were promised land (a society), Christians were not. Church crosses all boundaries, nationalities, races and sex, and inside this their are different cultures, but it's universal.
    It's true that there is a difference from OT to NT that in the OT God had only Israel as His nation, and in the NT God has people in many nations. But it isn't true that this difference implies a difference in God Himself. God promised things on behalf of Israel, and things on behalf of many nations. These promises remain true today--God has not changed.

    The fact God moved beyond Israel and into other pagan nations does not imply that God does not intend to transform whole nations into godly nations. He did that in history. As we look back in history, many nations have claimed to be Christian nations. What has changed? Nothing at all.

    It's only that you *say* there is this change. In reality, it isn't a change at all, except that God has progressed from a single nation to many nations. And naturally, this is what God wanted from the beginning, for God's People to advance and fill the whole earth with godly people. "Fill the earth and subdue it."

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC
    Building up a society (as in America) is not building the church - it's building society. There is a difference I think, if you were going to build a Christian society - whose culture would you institute? The Greeks? Afrikaans? The church is spiritual, not tangible.
    I completely disagree with you. If the Church is not tangible, it doesn't even exist. If it doesn't advance to affect society itself, it is ineffective.

    The reality is, the Church cannot *make* a whole nation adopt Christianity. We can only be witnesses in the society. If the society opts to become Christian as part of its politics and social norms, great. But people choose that or not. I believe that nations on earth are all on different trajectories, in a state of progress or in a state of decline. How effective Christians are in changing that society depends on the state of that society.

    Regardless, we are called to be witnesses to what God wishes that society to be. And make no mistake He wants the society to be Christian. That is part of our testimony. And part of our testimony is that if the individual and if the society opts against Christianity there will be judgment. That clearly is part of our testimony. If our message does not impact society, it is meaningless.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    11,263

    Re: Building God's Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    Why would God want to build up a Christian Society, when He's building His Church - across the whole world? Society is plagued by satan's world power, he is very organized in it, I really don't believe there is an existing prophecy claiming that while the Church is still on the earth, this world power of satan's will be destroyed, so why are we spending so much time arguing social justice warriors and not focused on the Church? Just asking, I don't see it being the same thing.
    Thanks.
    It depends on what you mean by "social justice warriors." As I've been trying to say, we are to witness into our society no matter what stage our society is in, whether it is on the rise or in free fall. We cannot determine the course of a society--only influence it. The society itself decides how it will respond to our message, to embrace it or to reject it. Our message is the same: the whole society should be Christian in order to produce a just society that is blessed by God's presence.

    We may legitimately take on occupations that are involved with "social justice." We should just temper our expectations as to how much we can accomplish. For example, for a while I dealt with the drug problem in the military in Europe. My expectations were low because our society discouraged open preaching in my job. And very few, at the time, were interested in turning their lives over to Christ, or in giving up their drugs and alcohol.

    Should I just have hung up that job? No, I'm sure it did some good for a few. But it was a legitimate expression of my Christianity in having concern for the welfare of people. I don't make their acceptance of Christianity a determiner as to whether I will help them or not! Christianity is not a bribe! It is just doing good with a pure heart, offering spiritual life to those who will accept it. We don't do good only to those who accept spiritual life. We do good to all, knowing that a better society benefits all.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Resting in Him
    Posts
    6,465

    Re: Building God's Kingdom

    I think this is a great thread. I could go on and on and on and on ... seems to me that some expect more out of unbelievers than they do out of believers. I think God expects a "Christian Society" within the Church ... so much of the NT is about renewing believers minds ... it is we who we ought to be concentrating on changing ... the rest from that will follow ... but well guess it is easier to try to say unbelievers need to do the things expected from God but believers well they don't have to because they are forgiven ... yea where is that shake my head icon ...

    Israel was looking for a savior and continued(s) looking for a savior that took/takes on "others" who were/are against Israel ... Jesus came to call people to believe in Him and change themselves that is what God expects from His people.

    Ephesians 4

    11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

    12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

    13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


    This is what we are called to work on ... I don't see Epistles on the need to go out and change secular society to be a "Christian Society" ... yes some in the Church are called to preach Christ ... but that is for individual salvation and to bring them into the Church ... society will only be changed when the Church does what it is called to do ...
    ***
    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

    Psalms 25:5
    ***

  10. #10

    Re: Building God's Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    It's true that there is a difference from OT to NT that in the OT God had only Israel as His nation, and in the NT God has people in many nations. But it isn't true that this difference implies a difference in God Himself. God promised things on behalf of Israel, and things on behalf of many nations. These promises remain true today--God has not changed.

    The fact God moved beyond Israel and into other pagan nations does not imply that God does not intend to transform whole nations into godly nations. He did that in history. As we look back in history, many nations have claimed to be Christian nations. What has changed? Nothing at all.

    It's only that you *say* there is this change. In reality, it isn't a change at all, except that God has progressed from a single nation to many nations. And naturally, this is what God wanted from the beginning, for God's People to advance and fill the whole earth with godly people. "Fill the earth and subdue it."



    I completely disagree with you. If the Church is not tangible, it doesn't even exist. If it doesn't advance to affect society itself, it is ineffective.

    The reality is, the Church cannot *make* a whole nation adopt Christianity. We can only be witnesses in the society. If the society opts to become Christian as part of its politics and social norms, great. But people choose that or not. I believe that nations on earth are all on different trajectories, in a state of progress or in a state of decline. How effective Christians are in changing that society depends on the state of that society.

    Regardless, we are called to be witnesses to what God wishes that society to be. And make no mistake He wants the society to be Christian. That is part of our testimony. And part of our testimony is that if the individual and if the society opts against Christianity there will be judgment. That clearly is part of our testimony. If our message does not impact society, it is meaningless.
    Being a witness in society is different than attempting to create an entire society of Christians by trying to control it with what we believe to be Christian morality, we can make all sorts of rules for people to follow (like Islam) but it's not a free society (this is exactly what the liberals want to do). This mindset is a world view, not a Christian view. We adopt the same principles of rule setting, man made moralities, and try to create a "Christian nation".

    I think the church is stronger in China, under a communist regime, then it is in free parts of the world. It has nothing to do with their communist society, rather it has everything to do with the power of the Holy Spirit moving in and through His people.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    11,263

    Re: Building God's Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    Being a witness in society is different than attempting to create an entire society of Christians by trying to control it with what we believe to be Christian morality, we can make all sorts of rules for people to follow (like Islam) but it's not a free society (this is exactly what the liberals want to do). This mindset is a world view, not a Christian view. We adopt the same principles of rule setting, man made moralities, and try to create a "Christian nation".

    I think the church is stronger in China, under a communist regime, then it is in free parts of the world. It has nothing to do with their communist society, rather it has everything to do with the power of the Holy Spirit moving in and through His people.
    I understand what you're saying, but I only partly agree. We can build a *better* society with our Christian influence. We are not trying to "save" it--only make it better for the good of all citizens. We are called not just to witness for the purpose of salvation, but also to simply be good and to do good, regardless of whether people get saved.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    11,263

    Re: Building God's Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    I think this is a great thread. I could go on and on and on and on ... seems to me that some expect more out of unbelievers than they do out of believers. I think God expects a "Christian Society" within the Church ... so much of the NT is about renewing believers minds ... it is we who we ought to be concentrating on changing ... the rest from that will follow ... but well guess it is easier to try to say unbelievers need to do the things expected from God but believers well they don't have to because they are forgiven ... yea where is that shake my head icon ...

    Israel was looking for a savior and continued(s) looking for a savior that took/takes on "others" who were/are against Israel ... Jesus came to call people to believe in Him and change themselves that is what God expects from His people.

    Ephesians 4

    11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

    12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

    13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


    This is what we are called to work on ... I don't see Epistles on the need to go out and change secular society to be a "Christian Society" ... yes some in the Church are called to preach Christ ... but that is for individual salvation and to bring them into the Church ... society will only be changed when the Church does what it is called to do ...
    I only partly agree. Our focus, as Christians, should be on ourselves, and not expect the nonChristian world at be or act like Christians. But does that mean the nonChristian world cannot be good or do good to some extent? No, I believe God created all men and women to be and do good. This does not necessarily "save" them in the spiritual sense but it certainly makes for a more hospitable, "good" society.

    So there are 2 elements involved in this subject of changing the world. One is spiritual salvation, which only Christians can accomplish. And the other is doing good in society, to build a better state. Some Christians feel it is futile to build a better state because the existence of nonChristians makes that impossible. But I wouldn't agree with that. God made all men to be and do good. The fact that men opt not to follow God's word in the area of spiritual salvation does not mean they can't follow God's word in the area of producing a good culture in other ways.

    If all the good Christians can ever do in this world is witness to spiritual salvation, we might as well give up thinking that anything good can be done in the world. And yet God created man for this purpose, that he may do good. We should live as though this is true, and add to it the testimony of eternal salvation whenever we can.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Resting in Him
    Posts
    6,465

    Re: Building God's Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I only partly agree. Our focus, as Christians, should be on ourselves, and not expect the nonChristian world at be or act like Christians. But does that mean the nonChristian world cannot be good or do good to some extent? No, I believe God created all men and women to be and do good. This does not necessarily "save" them in the spiritual sense but it certainly makes for a more hospitable, "good" society.

    So there are 2 elements involved in this subject of changing the world. One is spiritual salvation, which only Christians can accomplish. And the other is doing good in society, to build a better state. Some Christians feel it is futile to build a better state because the existence of nonChristians makes that impossible. But I wouldn't agree with that. God made all men to be and do good. The fact that men opt not to follow God's word in the area of spiritual salvation does not mean they can't follow God's word in the area of producing a good culture in other ways.

    If all the good Christians can ever do in this world is witness to spiritual salvation, we might as well give up thinking that anything good can be done in the world. And yet God created man for this purpose, that he may do good. We should live as though this is true, and add to it the testimony of eternal salvation whenever we can.
    Who ever said that "all the good Christians can ever do in this world is witness to spiritual salvation"??? There is plenty of things in the world that we can do. And I don't see where anyone said the nonChristian world cannot be good or do good to some extent". However nonChristians are not going to make a "Christian Society" ... and question is have we created such "Christian Society" in the Church ... if not that is where it starts ...
    ***
    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

    Psalms 25:5
    ***

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    11,263

    Re: Building God's Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    Who ever said that "all the good Christians can ever do in this world is witness to spiritual salvation"??? There is plenty of things in the world that we can do. And I don't see where anyone said the nonChristian world cannot be good or do good to some extent". However nonChristians are not going to make a "Christian Society" ... and question is have we created such "Christian Society" in the Church ... if not that is where it starts ...
    The "goodness" that men accomplish, Christian and nonChristian, is the very matter of creating a better society. What good is it if Christians and nonChristians can do good, but are absolutely unable to create a good society outside of the Christian Church? In that case, our environment if fixed, and no improvement can be made.

    But I think you will find that even nonChristian societies are able to build a degree of goodness for the public, particularly when those societies have been influenced by the Christian testimony. For example, Western intellectuals have appeared to model their own ideal societies after Christianity, to some degree, despite their hostility towards Christianity itself. The Christian impact is there, enabling them to build good institutions that preserve lives and enhance their ability to be happy and prosperous.

    We can all see the defects and bad side of such nonChristian secular institutions. But neither can we deny that they do some good for society. It is not wrong to work in them, in for example the United Nations. Good can be done by Christians within these institutions. And even nonChristians can do some good in them, assuming they have received positive influence somewhere.

  15. #15

    Re: Building God's Kingdom

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I understand what you're saying, but I only partly agree. We can build a *better* society with our Christian influence. We are not trying to "save" it--only make it better for the good of all citizens. We are called not just to witness for the purpose of salvation, but also to simply be good and to do good, regardless of whether people get saved.
    This isn't what I'm talking about, of course we're to do good, what I'm trying to convey us believers jumping into the mix and pushing our agenda onto a world that isn't listening. Instead of pushing for a society, we should be building God's Kingdom - by doing righteous acts (helping the poor, being kind to others, loving others, etc). I think we are discussing two different issues here.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Kingdom of God vs Kingdom of Heaven
    By Bible_Frank in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: Jul 16th 2018, 02:07 PM
  2. Discussion Kingdom oF GOD vs Kingdom oF Heaven
    By Jesuslovesus in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: Feb 25th 2017, 02:29 AM
  3. Replies: 26
    Last Post: Nov 4th 2016, 10:24 PM
  4. kingdom of heaven versus kingdom of God
    By goldenboy in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 48
    Last Post: Nov 2nd 2016, 10:05 PM
  5. The Beast kingdom overtaken by the kingdom of God.
    By Beckrl in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: Jul 26th 2010, 10:17 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •