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Thread: resurrection bodies for the lost?

  1. #46
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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    At what point do you believe the wicked receive new resurrected bodies, before or after their bodies are thrown into Hell?

    Acts 24.15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
    The wicked do not receive new bodies. They get their old mortal bodies back then are cast into the LOF.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    So, the righteous and the wicked are both resurrected. Then, after standing before God in our bodies, the wicked are cast into the lake of fire and destroyed. Its good to be able to agree with you on something ewq.

    Okay, but what happens to the wicked after being destroyed in the LOF? Do they continue to exist as conscious disembodied spirits? Or are they 'annihilated body, soul and spirit?
    "Your name and renown
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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The wicked do not receive new bodies. They get their old mortal bodies back then are cast into the LOF.
    What is your biblical basis for believing the wicked are raised up in their old mortal bodies? That kind of seems silly to me. Why raise them up at all, only to put them to death again? If you are to bring their bodies back to life, you would think the purpose is to give them some kind of life after bodily death?

    And why on earth would God give them their old bodies? They would have to be annihilated by the time they are raised from the dead! They would have rotted with cancer and eaten up by worms! Or perhaps their ashes were scattered over a volcano!

    It would *have to be* new bodies nonetheless--even if mortal bodies. But I think the new bodies they will be given will be immortal--just not having the kind of spiritual life that the righteous will have.

    I do think you may be onto something however. Their bodies may be a re-energizing of the natural body, whereas the righteous will be given perhaps supernatural bodies, more like angels. Regardless, I believe all men are eternal.

    Eccl 3.21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?

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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    So, the righteous and the wicked are both resurrected. Then, after standing before God in our bodies, the wicked are cast into the lake of fire and destroyed. Its good to be able to agree with you on something ewq.

    Okay, but what happens to the wicked after being destroyed in the LOF? Do they continue to exist as conscious disembodied spirits? Or are they 'annihilated body, soul and spirit?
    Most of Christianity has held, I think, to the eternity of the human soul, both righteous and wicked. But there have been adherents of annihihlationism down through history. It's really how you read the Scriptures--there isn't much explicitly taught on the subject, but there is enough to base an opinion on.

    In my view, the explicit inference is that God created men to live forever, despite the judgment against their bodily presence on earth. The fact they must be revived and resurrected into new bodies appears to be the product of God's need to revitalize the earth and to reform it. He must have new sinless bodies for men to live in, whether they are the righteous or the wicked. Not even the wicked can be permitted to have bodies they can sin in.

    My belief is that the wicked will be given new bodies to do good, but not to sin. They will perhaps find solace in doing good, but will always feel remorse for choosing to do evil. This is the gnashing of teeth experience, as well as the anguish. "Outer darkness" is simply an expression of separation from the light of Christ.

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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    What is your biblical basis for believing the wicked are raised up in their old mortal bodies? That kind of seems silly to me. Why raise them up at all, only to put them to death again? If you are to bring their bodies back to life, you would think the purpose is to give them some kind of life after bodily death?

    And why on earth would God give them their old bodies? They would have to be annihilated by the time they are raised from the dead! They would have rotted with cancer and eaten up by worms! Or perhaps their ashes were scattered over a volcano!
    The old bodies can be resurrected by God.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk
    My belief is that the wicked will be given new bodies to do good, but not to sin. They will perhaps find solace in doing good, but will always feel remorse for choosing to do evil.
    Why then the emphasis on being 'saved?' Saved from what? Remorse? Yes, Christianity has held to the eternity of the human soul, but eternal life of body, soul and spirit is only promised to the believer.
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The old bodies can be resurrected by God.
    Brother, think about what that means! The cells are dead, and have returned to the dust--to matter, to elements, that have been reused, perhaps, by other living creatures, which in turn are eaten by other living creatures, which may then be eaten by other men. What elements then are going to be resurrected that belong to the original dead person? There are no "old bodies!"

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq
    Only the righteous are promised eternal life and new glorified bodies. The unsaved get neither.
    I don't believe "eternal life" is associated with "eternal existence." Can you prove that these are equated with one another, biblically?

    I find that eternal life is the spiritual men destined to inhabit the Kingdom of God. They are empowered by the life of God.

    On the other hand, those who have rejected God's presence within them do not have this empowerment of God's Spirit within them. Their bodies may be like the beasts, which are purely natural, empowered only to live a natural life, void of fellowship with God.

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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Why then the emphasis on being 'saved?' Saved from what? Remorse? Yes, Christianity has held to the eternity of the human soul, but eternal life of body, soul and spirit is only promised to the believer.
    I get this all the time. The irony is that annihilationists feel, as I do, that God would never torture anybody for eternity. And yet, when I agree and yet insist that the Lost will exist forever, they think the punishment is too light, that that is not something to be "saved" from!

    Brother, it is the worst punishment in the world to be removed from those who have chosen eternal fellowship with God. This is the true fulfillment in life, and the crowning reward of the righteous, to have the imprint of God's good pleasure upon them. All else is "eternal punishment." That is certainly something to be saved from!

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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    Joh_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    It is interesting to see how long it took for somebody to quote scripture for their theory. And then, when scripture is finally turned to, no care is taken to get the true meaning of the words. Scriptures says plainly and unambiguously in 1st Corinthians 15:22-26,

    22 "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."


    Since ALL men were in Adam's loins, ALL face death. This is doubly confirmed in Romans 5:12. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon ALL men, for that all have sinned." And if death is an enemy, death will have his way UNTIL the last man is made alive again. So the ORDER of resurrection leaves no one out. FIRST Christ, THEN those who are His when He comes (the Church and Israel), THEN "the REST of the dead" at the END of the Millennium (Rev.20:5, 12-13). In plain English, the "REST" of the dead leaves no possibility for exceptions. The "REST" means the TOTAL OF WHAT REMAINS.

    The CONDITION for Christ to present the Father with a consummate KINGDOM is that ALL enemies are subdued! Death is the last enemy, not Gog and Magog. At this battle, AFTER the Millennium, multitudes are killed. Consider this. By Armageddon, at the end of this age, two thirds of the world's population will have succumbed to the tortures placed upon the earth. Great will be the army of the Beast. But with fertility and long life expected in the Millennium (Isa.65:20), the world's population at the end of the Millennium will be massive. We can thus expect the armies of Magog to be greater than those of the Beast. That is, the death toll of the final rebellion must surely far exceed that of Armageddon. Death will seem to be all-prevailing UNTIL the White Throne is set up. And THEN "the REST of the dead STAND" (Rev.20:12).

    The question then that seems to puzzle some on this Forum is, "with what body do they come?" Now, let us quickly dispense with this question lest, as scripture reports, we be called A FOOL! 1st Corinthians 15:35-39 sets forth the answer so clearly IF we apply the right meaning of the words.

    35 "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
    37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
    38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
    39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds."


    This does not describe the looks of the body, but it tells one important thing. And EVIL man is SOWN in death. In his resurrection this INTRINSIC characteristic will show. A grain of wheat, when sown in death, bursts forth from the earth as an EAR of wheat. The ear bears little similarity to the grain, but the intrinsic characteristic remains. An evil man will carry the characteristic of evil even if evil works have been banned by then. This is confirmed in the following verses - 1st Corinthians 15:40-42.

    40 "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
    41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption."


    Here, the key to understanding is to use the correct meaning of the word "glory". The word "glory" in the Greek, "doxa", means "MADE APPARENT" (Strong). Vine says it means; "an opinion, estimation, repute, ... in respect of their state as commanding recognition" (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words). John 7:39 says that the Holy Spirit that we would receive was not yet (lit. Gk.) because "Jesus was not yet GLORIFIED". When then was our Lord glorified, and how? It was His resurrection. The wages of sin is death, so if ONE LITTLE SIN remained unaccounted for, Christ could not have been resurrected. That ALL sin was put away was MADE APPARENT by the resurrection of Jesus. His countenance was normal. He was barely recognizable to His disciples and the sisters in the garden. There was nothing striking about Him. But He was ALIVE. "APPARENTLY" sin had been dealt with and the Father MADE THIS APPARENT by resurrecting Jesus.

    The word "glory" is usually associated with the POSITIVE in the New Testament. But its true meaning can go both ways. So, in 1st Corinthians 15:40 above, in resurrection, the HEAVENLY (a Christian) is MADE APPARENT, and the EARTHLY (an Israelite) is APPARENTLY of EARTHLY ORIGIN. The man, when resurrected, WILL SHOW, or MAKE APPARENT what he was when he was sown. When Hitler is finally resurrected at the White Throne he will have the "glory" of what he was. It will be APPARENT that he was an evil butcher of men and especially of God's People. So Isaiah 66:24, tell us what the BODIES of men suffering the Lake of Fire will LOOK LIKE - "CARCASSES!" Why? That they were "DEAD in their sins" when they died (were planted), and causers of DEATH (by nature), will be made APPARENT in their resurrection. Their intrinsic characteristic will be MADE APPARENT.

    The last word we must accurately deal with is "spiritual". The word "spiritual" can mean TWO THINGS;
    1. The subject is spirit in construction and nature - like an angel (Ps.104:4), or God (Jn.4:24)
    2. The subject HAS ITS ORIGIN in the Holy Spirit - like the "spiritual" gifts for building the Church. They are TALENTS or ABILITIES that are human and practical. But the had their ORIGIN in the Holy Spirit and not the womb. They are "Spiritual" Gifts.

    Our bodies, in resurrection, are NOT SPIRIT in construction and nature (Lk.24:39). But they have their ORIGIN in the Holy Spirit (Rom.8:11). So when 1st Corinthians 15:44 says; "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body", it means that the body of a resurrected man, whether Christian, or the worst infidel sinner, HAD ITS ORIGIN in the holy Spirit. NEITHER the Christian NOR the worst infidel sinner has body that is spirit in substance.

    When Paul the Apostle is resurrected he will:
    • Be a man
    • Be alive with human life
    • Have been constructed in heaven (2nd Cor.5:1-3)
    • Have been constructed by the Holy Spirit
    • Show what his intrinsic condition or characteristic was at the time he died (when he was sown)
    • Have a "crown" that will MAKE APPARENT his status as co-king with Christ (1st Pet.5:4 - a "crown of glory")

    When Hitler is resurrected a thousand years later, he will:
    • Be a man
    • Be alive with human life
    • Have been constructed on earth
    • Have been constructed by the Holy Spirit
    • Show what his intrinsic condition or characteristic was at the time of death (when he was sown)
    • Be in the Lake of Fire to MAKE APPARENT his status as an adversary of God

  11. #56
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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Of course. The saved have eternal life and the damned get eternal destruction.

    2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

    Joh_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    You teach the unsaved do see life, eternal life but the bible teaches the opposite. Isn't the bible our authority given by God?
    You are begging the question. We have yet to prove, from your perspective, that "everlasting destruction" means anything more than complete removal from the home of the righteous. You have not yet proven this means a complete annihilation of the body and soul because we already know souls of the wicked currently exist whose bodies have been annihilated.

    "Eternal Life," on the other hand, is something exclusively given to the obedient, such as those who would do as Adam failed to do--participate in the tree of life. In NT theology, to participate in Christ is to have eternal life. The wicked do not do that, and do not produce the fruit of eternal life. That does not imply anything more than that the wicked do not enjoy the life of Christ in an eternal way. It does not imply their existence is annihilated--only that they are removed from the place where this life is to be enjoyed.

    To be "destroyed" from the presence of the Lord is to be physically and completely removed from God's presence--not necessarily annihilated. It is the equivalent of Adam and Even having to be physically removed from Eden and then dying on the earth. However, they were not annihilated in their existence. To cite "everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" does not imply annihilation--only a complete removal from the presence of the Lord.

    Is it possible for men to be removed from the immediate presence of the Lord and still exist? Of course! That is the whole concept behind God putting His tabernacle in the midst of Israel, to show that God can be near men and He can also be far away from men. It is a blessing to have God near. But to have God far away is a curse. And if men are removed far away from God for all eternity, this is everlasting punishment--to exist far removed from the presence of God.

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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    It is interesting to see how long it took for somebody to quote scripture for their theory. And then, when scripture is finally turned to, no care is taken to get the true meaning of the words. Scriptures says plainly and unambiguously in 1st Corinthians 15:22-26,
    Why do you always try to "shame" others to utilize your own methodology? I began with a proposed idea, assuming that many know the Scriptures. My method is to present the problem first, and not pick and choose what Scriptures others may want to question on this subject. Immediately following I offered two Scriptures, which completely disprove your point, that no Scriptures have been proposed. In post #4 I mentioned two passages from Scriptures. You need to withdraw your *inaccurate* characterization of this discussion.

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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    It is interesting to see how long it took for somebody to quote scripture for their theory. And then, when scripture is finally turned to, no care is taken to get the true meaning of the words. Scriptures says plainly and unambiguously in 1st Corinthians 15:22-26,

    22 "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
    Good Scripture--I didn't think to apply it here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    Since ALL men were in Adam's loins, ALL face death. This is doubly confirmed in Romans 5:12. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon ALL men, for that all have sinned." And if death is an enemy, death will have his way UNTIL the last man is made alive again. So the ORDER of resurrection leaves no one out. FIRST Christ, THEN those who are His when He comes (the Church and Israel), THEN "the REST of the dead" at the END of the Millennium (Rev.20:5, 12-13). In plain English, the "REST" of the dead leaves no possibility for exceptions. The "REST" means the TOTAL OF WHAT REMAINS.

    The CONDITION for Christ to present the Father with a consummate KINGDOM is that ALL enemies are subdued! Death is the last enemy, not Gog and Magog. At this battle, AFTER the Millennium, multitudes are killed. Consider this. By Armageddon, at the end of this age, two thirds of the world's population will have succumbed to the tortures placed upon the earth. Great will be the army of the Beast. But with fertility and long life expected in the Millennium (Isa.65:20), the world's population at the end of the Millennium will be massive. We can thus expect the armies of Magog to be greater than those of the Beast. That is, the death toll of the final rebellion must surely far exceed that of Armageddon. Death will seem to be all-prevailing UNTIL the White Throne is set up. And THEN "the REST of the dead STAND" (Rev.20:12).
    Great points here. All will die, including the wicked. All will be liberated from death, because death is defeated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    The question then that seems to puzzle some on this Forum is, "with what body do they come?" Now, let us quickly dispense with this question lest, as scripture reports, we be called A FOOL! 1st Corinthians 15:35-39 sets forth the answer so clearly IF we apply the right meaning of the words.

    35 "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
    37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
    38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
    39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds."


    This does not describe the looks of the body, but it tells one important thing. And EVIL man is SOWN in death. In his resurrection this INTRINSIC characteristic will show. A grain of wheat, when sown in death, bursts forth from the earth as an EAR of wheat. The ear bears little similarity to the grain, but the intrinsic characteristic remains. An evil man will carry the characteristic of evil even if evil works have been banned by then. This is confirmed in the following verses - 1st Corinthians 15:40-42.

    40 "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
    41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption."
    Another good Scripture to apply here. I personally believe the old age has to pass into a new, heavenly, age, and the bodies of the righteous have to be adapted to accommodate this change. It stands to reason that the bodies of the wicked must also be adapted to accommodate a change into this new heavenly age, although they will not themselves be "heavenly."

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    Here, the key to understanding is to use the correct meaning of the word "glory". The word "glory" in the Greek, "doxa", means "MADE APPARENT" (Strong). Vine says it means; "an opinion, estimation, repute, ... in respect of their state as commanding recognition" (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words). John 7:39 says that the Holy Spirit that we would receive was not yet (lit. Gk.) because "Jesus was not yet GLORIFIED". When then was our Lord glorified, and how? It was His resurrection. The wages of sin is death, so if ONE LITTLE SIN remained unaccounted for, Christ could not have been resurrected. That ALL sin was put away was MADE APPARENT by the resurrection of Jesus. His countenance was normal. He was barely recognizable to His disciples and the sisters in the garden. There was nothing striking about Him. But He was ALIVE. "APPARENTLY" sin had been dealt with and the Father MADE THIS APPARENT by resurrecting Jesus.

    The word "glory" is usually associated with the POSITIVE in the New Testament. But its true meaning can go both ways. So, in 1st Corinthians 15:40 above, in resurrection, the HEAVENLY (a Christian) is MADE APPARENT, and the EARTHLY (an Israelite) is APPARENTLY of EARTHLY ORIGIN. The man, when resurrected, WILL SHOW, or MAKE APPARENT what he was when he was sown. When Hitler is finally resurrected at the White Throne he will have the "glory" of what he was. It will be APPARENT that he was an evil butcher of men and especially of God's People. So Isaiah 66:24, tell us what the BODIES of men suffering the Lake of Fire will LOOK LIKE - "CARCASSES!" Why? That they were "DEAD in their sins" when they died (were planted), and causers of DEATH (by nature), will be made APPARENT in their resurrection. Their intrinsic characteristic will be MADE APPARENT.

    The last word we must accurately deal with is "spiritual". The word "spiritual" can mean TWO THINGS;
    1. The subject is spirit in construction and nature - like an angel (Ps.104:4), or God (Jn.4:24)
    2. The subject HAS ITS ORIGIN in the Holy Spirit - like the "spiritual" gifts for building the Church. They are TALENTS or ABILITIES that are human and practical. But the had their ORIGIN in the Holy Spirit and not the womb. They are "Spiritual" Gifts.

    Our bodies, in resurrection, are NOT SPIRIT in construction and nature (Lk.24:39). But they have their ORIGIN in the Holy Spirit (Rom.8:11). So when 1st Corinthians 15:44 says; "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body", it means that the body of a resurrected man, whether Christian, or the worst infidel sinner, HAD ITS ORIGIN in the holy Spirit. NEITHER the Christian NOR the worst infidel sinner has body that is spirit in substance.

    When Paul the Apostle is resurrected he will:
    • Be a man
    • Be alive with human life
    • Have been constructed in heaven (2nd Cor.5:1-3)
    • Have been constructed by the Holy Spirit
    • Show what his intrinsic condition or characteristic was at the time he died (when he was sown)
    • Have a "crown" that will MAKE APPARENT his status as co-king with Christ (1st Pet.5:4 - a "crown of glory")

    When Hitler is resurrected a thousand years later, he will:
    • Be a man
    • Be alive with human life
    • Have been constructed on earth
    • Have been constructed by the Holy Spirit
    • Show what his intrinsic condition or characteristic was at the time of death (when he was sown)
    • Be in the Lake of Fire to MAKE APPARENT his status as an adversary of God
    I think the new heavenly bodies of the righteous are the equivalent of new spiritual bodies. They are bodies that accommodate the heavenly, or divine, Christ. Since the wicked do not have Christ indwelling them, their "glory," as you suggest, indicate that they were created to do good in the body, even though they are not temples of the heavenly Christ.

    I don't know if it's significant, but Paul compares the lesser light of the moon with the greater light of the sun. The "stars" are just suns that add backup light to the moon. The moon reflects light, and does not produce its own heat and light. By contrast the sun produces its own heat and light.

    Perhaps this indicates how the natural world on earth can reflect God' goodness without producing its own goodness from within? Perhaps this indicates what the bodies of the wicked will be like when they have their ability to sin removed from them?

    In this respect the sun could represent Christ's role on the earth, whereas the stars represent God's righteous people. They produce the light of Christ from within themselves, being that Christ dwells in them.

    By contrast, the wicked are more like the moon, reflecting the glory of God in making them to do good, reflecting His light. But they do not produce light of themselves, because they chose not to have Christ dwell in them. Just a thought?

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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Why do you always try to "shame" others to utilize your own methodology? I began with a proposed idea, assuming that many know the Scriptures. My method is to present the problem first, and not pick and choose what Scriptures others may want to question on this subject. Immediately following I offered two Scriptures, which completely disprove your point, that no Scriptures have been proposed. In post #4 I mentioned two passages from Scriptures. You need to withdraw your *inaccurate* characterization of this discussion.
    For one man it is shame, for another - a challenge. Of all the regular posters on this Forum you use the least scripture in the formulating of your view. If we were on a philosophy Forum I would withdraw my accusation with apologies. But on this Forum it is not "Personal Opinion Chat". It is "Let's Talk BIBLE". If you feel ashamed not to use the BIBLE - why, start using it. If you're just mad at me, I understand.

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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Good Scripture--I didn't think to apply it here!



    Great points here. All will die, including the wicked. All will be liberated from death, because death is defeated.



    Another good Scripture to apply here. I personally believe the old age has to pass into a new, heavenly, age, and the bodies of the righteous have to be adapted to accommodate this change. It stands to reason that the bodies of the wicked must also be adapted to accommodate a change into this new heavenly age, although they will not themselves be "heavenly."



    I think the new heavenly bodies of the righteous are the equivalent of new spiritual bodies. They are bodies that accommodate the heavenly, or divine, Christ. Since the wicked do not have Christ indwelling them, their "glory," as you suggest, indicate that they were created to do good in the body, even though they are not temples of the heavenly Christ.

    I don't know if it's significant, but Paul compares the lesser light of the moon with the greater light of the sun. The "stars" are just suns that add backup light to the moon. The moon reflects light, and does not produce its own heat and light. By contrast the sun produces its own heat and light.

    Perhaps this indicates how the natural world on earth can reflect God' goodness without producing its own goodness from within? Perhaps this indicates what the bodies of the wicked will be like when they have their ability to sin removed from them?

    In this respect the sun could represent Christ's role on the earth, whereas the stars represent God's righteous people. They produce the light of Christ from within themselves, being that Christ dwells in them.

    By contrast, the wicked are more like the moon, reflecting the glory of God in making them to do good, reflecting His light. But they do not produce light of themselves, because they chose not to have Christ dwell in them. Just a thought?
    WE are not far apart here. Besides the direct statements of scripture, the which we can form doctrine with, the creation shows the things of God. So I enjoy the "pictures" but never use them for forming doctrine because they are limited.
    • The sun, having it own energy and light speaks of Christ - the "Sun of Righteousness" (Mal.4:2)
    • The moon - a "lesser light" to rule the night speaks of Israel and the Law. It can only reflect the sun but remains cold and lifeless in itself
    • The stars - lesser lights for the earth, but containing inherent energy like the sun - the individuals of the Church. They alone cannot rule the night (when Christ is not present), but collectively they give the earth light
    • The sea - those who are dead and cause death - the Nations, preserved only by the Church - salt (Matt.5:13)
    • The sand of the sea shore - Israel. Being a nation they sit beside the sea but are made separate by keeping the Law and God's presence with them
    • The stars of heaven - The Church. Not ruling the night, for that is left for the Sun when He comes. But they give light and direction to those in darkness

    One thing I have not yet settled in my mind is Revelation 20:13, "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." Revelation 1:1 informs us that God would reveal things in this Book by "signs". If this is so then the "sea" in the above verse is the Nations. This would be correct for the Church and Israel are resurrected a thousand years earlier. Only the nations remain for the resurrection of the "rest of the dead". But the literal sea is the dwelling place of demons (Matt.8:32). Now, fallen angels, who are to be judged, and are spirits, are most probably judged at the White Throne (2nd Pet.2:4). The demons, disembodied spirits, will be judged too, most probably at the White Throne. Is the "sea" of Revelation 20:13 a "sign" or literal? I cannot decide. My best answer is - why not both? What think ye?

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