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    resurrection bodies for the lost?

    I've always believed the resurrection will happen for both the righteous and the unrighteous, for the "saved" and for the "lost." But I've never really thought about what kind of bodies God has prepared for those who choose to not be in fellowship with God, who choose to have both the knowledge of good and the knowledge of evil?

    The "lost" will likely maintain the knowledge of good and evil, being created to do good, but also wanting to choose against God's word, if they so choose, and when they choose. What kind of bodies do you think they will have?

    Let me say up front that although I believe the Bible, and all it says about the "lost," I don't believe God will ever indulge in long-term torture. God has allowed it in this age, due to the freedoms He has given to man to abuse others. But in the eternal state of affairs, I should think sin will be limited, and that the "lost" will be allowed to continue to do some good, at least when they are not choosing to resist God's word.

    Personally, I think the future world for the "lost" will be much like the present world, because today we have the freedom to do good and the freedom to disobey God's word. I just consider that God will limit the ability of people to abuse others. (Certainly in this present world there are regrets and sorrows, as well as anguish and the gnashing of teeth.)

    Obviously, this is all in the realm of speculation, and falls outside the orbit of biblical priorities in terms of doctrine. But it may be there somewhere in God's written word. This is what those who have spent a lifetime in the Bible do, in their spare time!

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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    Hi Randy
    I have found myself wondering if the ungodly dead will actually rise with a body. Resurrection of the body is an act of restoration and healing for the saved.
    Why restore the unsaved body, when the lake of fire is a place that was prepared for the devil and his angels who had no physical body?

    Just a thought.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    Spare time, Randyk?
    I am a retired man, but I fill my days very well. Reading, forums, checking on our community water supply system, trapping pest critters, visiting family and people in the local rest home, my home workshop, etc.
    But my main job is writing articles about what God has planned for our future. THAT is the really fascinating and exciting thing and I look forward to participating in it all.

    Re: the Great White Throne judgment, I see that those who stand before the Throne, that is everyone who has ever lived, are referred to as 'the dead'. So I do not see them as resurrected or having new bodies at all.
    It seems logical to me that this event will be a spiritual one, where the soul/spirit of every dead individual comes before God for their final destiny.

    But we see in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, that there will be some people still alive at that time, whose names are written in the Book of Life, that will never die; transformed in an instant into immortality.
    Those 'thrown into the Lake of Fire', are annihilated, as I see that as a metaphor for eternal separation from God.

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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Spare time, Randyk?
    I am a retired man, but I fill my days very well. Reading, forums, checking on our community water supply system, trapping pest critters, visiting family and people in the local rest home, my home workshop, etc.
    But my main job is writing articles about what God has planned for our future. THAT is the really fascinating and exciting thing and I look forward to participating in it all.

    Re: the Great White Throne judgment, I see that those who stand before the Throne, that is everyone who has ever lived, are referred to as 'the dead'. So I do not see them as resurrected or having new bodies at all.
    It seems logical to me that this event will be a spiritual one, where the soul/spirit of every dead individual comes before God for their final destiny.

    But we see in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, that there will be some people still alive at that time, whose names are written in the Book of Life, that will never die; transformed in an instant into immortality.
    Those 'thrown into the Lake of Fire', are annihilated, as I see that as a metaphor for eternal separation from God.
    Hi Keraz. Thanks for the response. I also am retired, and stay busy in a variety of ways. We've probably done similar things. I don't use the word "annihilation" because for many people that word implies a complete cessation of existence for the wicked. Eternal Punishment implies eternal life for the wicked. So I'm glad you say that "annihilation in the Lake of Fire" is a pure metaphor for eternal separation from God.

    I see it a little differently but similarly. I see the Lake of Fire as symbolic of eternal separation of the wicked from the New Earth. However, I do see the wicked as receiving new eternal bodies--just not equipped with the ability to produce the life and righteousness of Christ.

    They will most likely be able to do good, since God made all men to be good, having been created in the image of God. But inasmuch as they have wandered from the word of God, and resist it, they will not be able to embrace that goodness within their heart, and will always know their internal separation from the Lord.

    This is called "outer darkness," the alienation of the wicked from the constant revelation of God that only belongs to God's People. Their rebellious, wandering ways will be forever removed from the New Earth. And their lives will be confined to a place where they are unable to do evil, even though they *are* evil.

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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Hi Keraz. Thanks for the response. I also am retired, and stay busy in a variety of ways. We've probably done similar things. I don't use the word "annihilation" because for many people that word implies a complete cessation of existence for the wicked. Eternal Punishment implies eternal life for the wicked. So I'm glad you say that "annihilation in the Lake of Fire" is a pure metaphor for eternal separation from God.

    I see it a little differently but similarly. I see the Lake of Fire as symbolic of eternal separation of the wicked from the New Earth. However, I do see the wicked as receiving new eternal bodies--just not equipped with the ability to produce the life and righteousness of Christ.

    They will most likely be able to do good, since God made all men to be good, having been created in the image of God. But inasmuch as they have wandered from the word of God, and resist it, they will not be able to embrace that goodness within their heart, and will always know their internal separation from the Lord.

    This is called "outer darkness," the alienation of the wicked from the constant revelation of God that only belongs to God's People. Their rebellious, wandering ways will be forever removed from the New Earth. And their lives will be confined to a place where they are unable to do evil, even though they *are* evil.
    I just do not see why God would bother to give new bodies to those who rejected Him, their Maker.
    In Nahum 1:15....the wicked are totally destroyed. Many other verses say a similar fate for the ungodly. Job 20, Psalms 1:6b, +

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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I just do not see why God would bother to give new bodies to those who rejected Him, their Maker.
    In Nahum 1:15....the wicked are totally destroyed. Many other verses say a similar fate for the ungodly. Job 20, Psalms 1:6b, +
    As you can probably tell I would assign a fate less horrible than that advocated by the Medieval painter Bosch. To me, a "good God" does good, despite the failure of men to be good. So to be consistent with His purpose in making all men "good," God would equip even the wicked to continue to do good, even though they are "evil" for having resisted His word in many ways.

    Remember that partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil has both good and evil. The wicked are "wicked" precisely because they have chosen to do evil as well as good. They are still capable of doing good. So I believe God equips them to do good, while denying their right to do evil. They are equipped to live outside of fellowship with God, and to thus act independent of God's word in many ways. But in other ways, they are still able to comply with God's word, and to do good.

    The eternal punishment of the wicked is thus to *never* be able to live in close proximity with God and with His people. It is to do good without having the benefits of continuous paradise on the new earth. Obviously, this is speculation drawn from the word of God, but not explicit teaching. The word of God does not appear to address this in detail.

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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Hi Randy
    I have found myself wondering if the ungodly dead will actually rise with a body. Resurrection of the body is an act of restoration and healing for the saved.
    Why restore the unsaved body, when the lake of fire is a place that was prepared for the devil and his angels who had no physical body?

    Just a thought.
    Yes, we were always promised, as a reward, physical restoration--a resurrection to eternal life. But all men live forever, right? So when the wicked rise in the resurrection, surely they have bodies too. They just don't seem to be mentioned, or are they implied?

    Dan 12.2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

    Here, both "awake"--both righteous and wicked. To "awaken" implies a physical resurrection, I should think?

    Acts 24.and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

    It's interesting that the focus of the resurrection is almost entirely on the "resurrection of the righteous," or the resurrection to Christ-likeness. Very little is said about the resurrection of the ungodly.

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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, we were always promised, as a reward, physical restoration--a resurrection to eternal life. But all men live forever, right? So when the wicked rise in the resurrection, surely they have bodies too. They just don't seem to be mentioned, or are they implied? .
    It seems evident to me that Jesus taught that the BODY of the wicked would be cast into Hell.

    Mat 10:28**And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Mat 5:29**If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.Mat 5:30**And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    It seems evident to me that Jesus taught that the BODY of the wicked would be cast into Hell.

    Mat 10:28**And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Mat 5:29**If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.Mat 5:30**And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
    Absolutely. The unsaved will have a bodily resurrection but they will receive mortal bodies while the saved have a bodily resurrection that is an immortal body.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    The resurrection of all men is plainly stated. In ...
    John 5:28-29 it is:
    28 "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."


    1st Corinthians 15:22 it is; "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

    Revelation 20:12-13 it is; "And I saw the dead, small and great, STAND before God; ... and DEATH and HADES delivered up the dead which were in them ... ."

    Revelation 21:4 it is; "... and there shall be no more death (on the new earth), ... for the former things are passed away."

    By death, the Bible always means physical death. The "Second Death" - perdition, is not cessation of faculties like the physical death, but is "extreme lack of well-being" in a living man (Vine).

    The cause of physical death is the inherited fallen nature of Adam, or "SIN" (singular) - Romans 5:12. That is why babies can, and do, die without having sinned (trespassed). According to John 1:29 our Lord Jesus died for the "SIN" (singular) of the world. Thus, God may, at His discretion, raise all men. This is not so much a reward as some think, but because our Lord Jesus "made all things" (John 1:3), is "heir of all things" (Hebrews 1:2), and will "subject all things" (Hebrews 2:8). To the "Prince of Life", Who "was made the Life-giving Spirit", death is a blight and a besmirchment in His creature and inheritance. Thus, it is to be removed.

    This removal of physical death sets the scene for the "Second Death". Only a LIVING man can suffer in body and soul at the same time as Matthew 10:28 promises. A dead man cannot feel physical pain. The wording of scripture is plain an unambiguous. Men who actively went against God will suffer "perdition" (lack of well-being) FOR EVER. It is a serious thing to declare oneself, and set oneself against the Living God, Maker, Owner and Glorious God of all things.

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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The resurrection of all men is plainly stated. In ...
    John 5:28-29 it is:
    28 "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."


    1st Corinthians 15:22 it is; "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

    Revelation 20:12-13 it is; "And I saw the dead, small and great, STAND before God; ... and DEATH and HADES delivered up the dead which were in them ... ."

    Revelation 21:4 it is; "... and there shall be no more death (on the new earth), ... for the former things are passed away."

    By death, the Bible always means physical death. The "Second Death" - perdition, is not cessation of faculties like the physical death, but is "extreme lack of well-being" in a living man (Vine).

    The cause of physical death is the inherited fallen nature of Adam, or "SIN" (singular) - Romans 5:12. That is why babies can, and do, die without having sinned (trespassed). According to John 1:29 our Lord Jesus died for the "SIN" (singular) of the world. Thus, God may, at His discretion, raise all men. This is not so much a reward as some think, but because our Lord Jesus "made all things" (John 1:3), is "heir of all things" (Hebrews 1:2), and will "subject all things" (Hebrews 2:8). To the "Prince of Life", Who "was made the Life-giving Spirit", death is a blight and a besmirchment in His creature and inheritance. Thus, it is to be removed.

    This removal of physical death sets the scene for the "Second Death". Only a LIVING man can suffer in body and soul at the same time as Matthew 10:28 promises. A dead man cannot feel physical pain. The wording of scripture is plain an unambiguous. Men who actively went against God will suffer "perdition" (lack of well-being) FOR EVER. It is a serious thing to declare oneself, and set oneself against the Living God, Maker, Owner and Glorious God of all things.
    Thanks, I would largely agree with this. The one point I may dispute is whether babies sin or not. Although I believe they too are born into sin, I would agree with you that babies "sin" with little consciousness of what they are doing. How "guilty" they may be is a matter for God to decide.

    Largely, I think you're spot on! I'm just curious how you deal with the sense that if there is no suffering or death on the New Earth, how can the ungodly suffer the pain and anguish of regret in the after life? Aren't they also on the New Earth, or is there some part of the planet that will not be called the "New Earth" where the lost will exist in different resurrection bodies?

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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Thanks, I would largely agree with this. The one point I may dispute is whether babies sin or not. Although I believe they too are born into sin, I would agree with you that babies "sin" with little consciousness of what they are doing. How "guilty" they may be is a matter for God to decide.

    Largely, I think you're spot on! I'm just curious how you deal with the sense that if there is no suffering or death on the New Earth, how can the ungodly suffer the pain and anguish of regret in the after life? Aren't they also on the New Earth, or is there some part of the planet that will not be called the "New Earth" where the lost will exist in different resurrection bodies?
    I salute you. You were sharp as a razor to bring this up. I used Revelation 21:4 to show that there was no more physical death. But you are correct. The context of verse 4 is "His people" of verse 3. That is, the Jew and the Christian. Revelation 21:4 reads.

    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

    Let us examine these two peoples of God to discover why they are susceptible to tears, death, sorrow, crying and pain IN THE MILLENNIUM which precedes the New Earth.

    Israel. At the beginning of the Millennium Israel has BOTH resurrected and non-resurrected. A resurrected man cannot die (Lk.20:36), but a man in the old body can. And Isaiah predicts death in the Millennium (Isa.65:20). Added to this, according to Daniel 12:2, many of the resurrected will be in disgrace. Thus, death, sorrow, tears, crying and pain are present in the Millennium, but removed by God on the new Earth - seeing as "former things are passed away" and "ALL things are new".

    The Church. It is clear from (i) your own observation, (ii) the parables of the Kingdom, and (iii) the tone of the New Testament, that the Church apostates itself in this age and faces the consequences of the Judgement Seat of Christ is the Millennium. ALL of the Church will be in resurrection bodies, but that does not not mean they cannot suffer. Our Lord Jesus issued a strong warning in Revelation 2:11! "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." That is, the Christians who fail at the judgement Seat of Christ will experience "intense lack of well-being" during the Millennium. While this is to be avoided at all costs (even the cost of one's life), it is NOT DESTRUCTION but CHASTISEMENT. Chastisement has the goal of perfecting one's righteousness (Heb.12:11). And this chastisement is completed by the Lord by the end of the Millennium. That is why, until the New Earth, the Bride is never shown in her entirety. Ephesians 5:27 reads; "That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." This is only accomplished at the end of the Millennium. Until then there is, after the Judgment Seat of Christ, (i) stripes, (ii) weeping and wailing, (iii) outer darkness and (iv) "being HURT of the Second Death" for the wayward Christian.

    Now, returning to your original query about death, I must admit I used "death" generally and not specifically as it relates to God's People. But I feel this is allowed because in Revelation 20 all men who ever died are have been raised. "Death" is abolished for all men by then, but tears, sorrow and pain are, of course, still valid for those of the NATIONS who are judged as worthy of the Lake of Fire.

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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Absolutely. The unsaved will have a bodily resurrection but they will receive mortal bodies while the saved have a bodily resurrection that is an immortal body.
    Does this mean you think the Lost will continue to experience pain and death on the New Earth? There does seem to be a distinction between what Christians receive and what nonChristians receive. It does say that there will be no more death or pain in God's Kingdom. But wouldn't this extend over the entire New Earth, including the abode of the wicked? Or do you think the ungodly will be completely removed from the New Earth?

    And this raises another question in my mind. If the ungodly live in the "outer darkness," and experience thirst and anguish, does this mean that there is a zone outside of the Kingdom of God on the New Earth where the rules don't apply? We are told that on the New Earth, in the Kingdom of God, there is no more sorrow, pain, or death. This would seem to exclude the ungodly, right?

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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Does this mean you think the Lost will continue to experience pain and death on the New Earth?
    They will be in the LOF not the new Earth.

    It does say that there will be no more death or pain in God's Kingdom.
    It doesn't limit that to just a kingdom. It's just a stated fact that death, sorrow, crying and pain do not exist anymore.

    Or do you think the ungodly will be completely removed from the New Earth?
    Of course.

    And this raises another question in my mind. If the ungodly live in the "outer darkness," and experience thirst and anguish, does this mean that there is a zone outside of the Kingdom of God on the New Earth where the rules don't apply? We are told that on the New Earth, in the Kingdom of God, there is no more sorrow, pain, or death. This would seem to exclude the ungodly, right?
    I don't believe in that.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: resurrection bodies for the lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    They will be in the LOF not the new Earth.



    It doesn't limit that to just a kingdom. It's just a stated fact that death, sorrow, crying and pain do not exist anymore.



    Of course.



    I don't believe in that.
    While many share your sentiments, you cannot produce a single scripture for them.

    The Lake of Fire is a CONDITION - not a PLACE. It is used interchangeably with "perdition" and Vine tells us that "perdition" in the Greek means "lack of well-being". Matthew 10:28 confirms this. Gehenna is a picture of soulish and physical suffering that never ends. Isaiah 66:24 confirms this as well as Mark 9. The "worm" and the "fire" are PERSONAL. It is "THEIR worm" and "THEIR fire" that never end. Those adjudged worthy of the Lake of Fire are on earth were we can look upon them. Even Satan can be looked upon in his agony (Isa.14:16, 66:24).

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