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Thread: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

  1. #16
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Quite the contrary, I think that it's you who are failing to see how I'm applying Baptism very simply. In other words, in over-complicating it you feel it isn't being properly treated.

    But what if it is really this simple? What if Baptism is purely a simple reference back to the idea that God inundated the corrupt world of Noah's Day to destroy wickedness from the earth, and that Christians, in partaking of this ritual, admit the dangers of sin within ourselves and our need to dispose of sin in ourselves?

    As new Christians we come out of our sins and out of the sinful world to demonstrate before the world that we have chosen a different way of life, free from the contaminations of sin. We embrace the spiritual life of Christ as the means to living in this new righteousness, enabling us to avoid the judgment that God showed was the fate of human wickedness in the days of Noah.

    Baptism is a simple initiation ritual, a public proclamation of a change of direction in our lives. We embrace a new community, different from the sinful world. That's all Baptism is--a symbol of a new beginning. A new believer could never get into all the esoterics of what you are describing. Again, it over-complicates it.

    For the advanced Christian it may indeed suggest some of the things you mention. But Baptism is just a ritual designed for new believers, for repentant sinners. I was baptized as a baby, and certainly had no inkling of what repentance was, or in what a future inheritance in God was. In my teens, after indulging in a sinful lifestyle for a time, I repented and got rebaptized.

    Even then I could only see Baptism as a ritual, as a public proclamation of my repentance and conversion back to Christian ways. And at that time it was still somewhat confusing for me because as a Christian raised from birth I also over-complicated it. I had never really left Christianity--just backslid, and didn't feel that I was becoming a Christian for the 2nd time!
    OK. You've made yourself clear. I grant you your view. Go well bro.

  2. #17
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua1 View Post
    I believe that God teaches Christians to be immersed... Mat 28:18-20 (ESV) And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” Also 1 Peter 3:21-22 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

    However, Jesus also says in Matthew 7:1 to judge not, lest you be judged (also see Luke 6:37-38, Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; 38 give, and it will be given to you...) I believe it is not my place to judge a believer in Jesus who is kind, giving, serving, and loving, but currently does not want to get immersed in Christ's name (acts 2:38. acts 10:47-48)... God may work with him in the future. We can tell people what God says in the Bible, but the harder we judge others, the harder we will be judged by God, I believe. And likewise, the more merciful we are now, the more mercy God will show us on judgment day. Once we start with faith in Jesus we should actually desire to be doing what God wants, whether immersion, service, giving, growing closer with brethren, etc, etc...

    Thanks..

    Josh


    Good words - all of them. It is more our job to set forth Baptism and let the unbaptized decide for themselves. That the arguments are scary is not to judge, but save. We show a learner driver pictures of torn bodies in a car accident, not to stop them driving, but to make them aware of the dangers. And, as you have written, Baptism is a COMMAND. It is non-negotiable. It does not have to be understood. It must be DONE.

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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    The most common debate concerning Baptism is; "is it necessary for salvation?" This is because Christianity at large still hangs firmly to the Roman Catholic myth that salvation is about going to heaven. The Reformers rightly fought for the truth of salvation by faith rather than works, but did not stop to consider the whole matter. If they had questioned EVERYTHING that Catholicism had injected into Christianity, they would have seen that the whole matter of salvation is not about heaven, but about the earth. From Genesis 1:26-28, through Abraham entering Covenant with God for a piece of the earth "for an everlasting possession", through Israel gaining and losing their piece of earth, through Daniel's prophecies of God crushing Gentile rule and setting up an "everlasting Kingdom" that "FILLED the earth", through our Lord Jesus coming with the gospel of "Thy (God's) will being done on earth as it is in heaven", through the parables where where God's faithful servants "inherit the earth", to the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus TO EARTH to establish an everlasting Kingdom over the earth and its nations, the whole Bible points to God not giving up His immutable council that men, and not angels, are to rule the earth (Heb.2:5, 16).

    And of this Kingdom, the inspired record informs us that, "... flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1st Corinthians 15:50). The combination of the flesh enlivened by the blood of Adam is singularly inadequate for ruling this earth - and God had no plans to spare it. In the very beginning He bans Adam from the Tree of Life "... lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" (Genesis 3:22). God does not patch up broken things. He lets it die and starts afresh. So, EVERY man that is involved in God's plan for the earth must DIE and then be resurrected with a new and heavenly body (2nd Corinthians 5:1-4). And those alive at the dawn of this Kingdom must "be changed" (1st Cor.15:51-52). But if every man that God chose to be part of His unchangeable plan for the earth was to die on the spot, God would loose His testimony on earth. So He sets forth a temporary SUBSTITUTE for this required and inevitable death. The man of God must admit to the inadequacy of flesh and blood and "DIE" like the world of flesh did at Noah's time - by IMMERSION.

    If any man who has been called and chosen by God for His plan with the earth upholds the flesh and blood, and REFUSES to symbolically "DIE", he, in effect, contradicts God concerning this corrupted flesh. The word "Hebrew" means "River Crosser". Abraham, to occupy the Land, must pass through a "flood" - the river Euphrates (Josh:24:2). Israel, after building Satan's treasure cities and worshiping idols in Egypt, must pass through a "flood" (Josh.24:14-15) ere they can inherit the Land. Israel, having before their eyes the inadequacy of the flesh to keep the Law over 1,500 years, must, at the hand of the "greatest man born of a woman" - John Baptist, be buried in the "flood" of the Jordan. And then the Inheritor of all things - Jesus Christ, COMMANDS all His disciples to be buried under water in His Name. If any man refuses passing through the flood of water, he defies God's plan. He CANNOT be partaker of the Land if he remains on THAT SIDE of the flood.

    Israel journey towards the Land and arrive at Jordan in flood. For the Land to be gained TWO things must happen. (i) Twelve Tribes - the full number of God's People, went down through the depth of the river, and (ii) Twelve stones for the full number of God's people, are taken UP OUT from the flood and placed as a monument on the side of the Land. They are Hebrews. They are "River Crossers". Any man who did not cross the River had no part of the Good Land. Likewise, we Christians are also "River Crossers". God COMMANDS that we be IMMERSED to symbolically DIE for His plan. Who of the Israelites dared not cross the River? Who of us Christians dares to thwart God's plan to have a People who acknowledge that the flesh and blood must be cut off because they cannot inherit the earth. The Christian who refuses this direct command of God is a REBEL. He maintains the validity of flesh and blood. He contradicts God. He makes himself to know better than God. He refuses God's requirement.

    Baptism is not for salvation. Baptism is for the EARTH. We are SAVED to be HEIRS. Any Christian who is saved and does not inherit the earth is likened to Esau - whom God hated! He DESPISED HIS BIRTHRIGHT! Christians are BORN again for the Kingdom (John 3:3), but to ENTER the Kingdom, he, like the Twelve Stones of Joshua 4, must come out of the death waters TO GAIN THE LAND (John.3:5)

  4. #19
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The most common debate concerning Baptism is; "is it necessary for salvation?" This is because Christianity at large still hangs firmly to the Roman Catholic myth that salvation is about going to heaven. The Reformers rightly fought for the truth of salvation by faith rather than works, but did not stop to consider the whole matter. If they had questioned EVERYTHING that Catholicism had injected into Christianity, they would have seen that the whole matter of salvation is not about heaven, but about the earth....Baptism is not for salvation. Baptism is for the EARTH. We are SAVED to be HEIRS. Any Christian who is saved and does not inherit the earth is likened to Esau - whom God hated! He DESPISED HIS BIRTHRIGHT! Christians are BORN again for the Kingdom (John 3:3), but to ENTER the Kingdom, he, like the Twelve Stones of Joshua 4, must come out of the death waters TO GAIN THE LAND (John.3:5)
    I've already told you my position, that Baptism is a simple initiation ceremony for the new believer. As such for me it has nothing to do with salvation, because it is for those already saved. It is a public proclamation not just for our own self-commitment, but also as a public testimony to others that you will from henceforth not be a part of their ungodly society.

    But your point about Baptism meaning a complete "death" is well-taken. We are indeed to view sin this way, as a complete abandonment of sin and autonomy for dependence on the righteousness of Christ. We have a deposit of His Spirit in our lives, such that we can always exercise wisdom, when we keep our eyes focused on who he is and what he is like.

    And we always have His presence in our heart, so that we know how to act in His love. He doesn't normally guide us around like a dog on a leash. Rather, He has entrusted to us His Spirit so that we may freely choose to live in His love, by His priorities.

    And still, we are ready to be led by His word if He should want to give us a more direct word, as well--although this is not the norm. Baptism is indeed a commitment to put off all the independent ways of men, choosing to live in an eternal partnership with God, always in deference to His Spirit.

    But your point about Protestants missing the mark I think is a little off. Protestants focus on "heaven" not in the sense they ignore the point about our inheritance on earth, but rather, to focus on the God of heaven. "Heaven," as such, is just another term for "God."

    Thus, the Protestant focus on Heaven is a focus on the fact that our salvation happens when we become allied with God, and become, in effect, one with Him spiritually. This is essential if we are to inherit the new earth, and reside in His Kingdom.

    I don't completely disagree with you either. Sometimes there is this Protestant focus on Heaven to the exclusion of earthly matters. I've seen a serious dichotomy created between religion in "heaven" and life on earth. The spiritual and the secular are completely separated, and I think this is wrong.

    This is what happened to me in my upbringing. Spiritual things were reserved exclusively for Sunday church, while the rest of the week was a "secular time." We kept the "10 Commandments" during the week day, but hardly presented much of an open testimony of Christ to the world. We kept silent except on Sundays.

    This was a major wrong in my upbringing. So I thank you for bringing up the point, if that's what you meant!

  5. #20
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I've already told you my position, that Baptism is a simple initiation ceremony for the new believer. As such for me it has nothing to do with salvation, because it is for those already saved. It is a public proclamation not just for our own self-commitment, but also as a public testimony to others that you will from henceforth not be a part of their ungodly society.

    But your point about Baptism meaning a complete "death" is well-taken. We are indeed to view sin this way, as a complete abandonment of sin and autonomy for dependence on the righteousness of Christ. We have a deposit of His Spirit in our lives, such that we can always exercise wisdom, when we keep our eyes focused on who he is and what he is like.

    And we always have His presence in our heart, so that we know how to act in His love. He doesn't normally guide us around like a dog on a leash. Rather, He has entrusted to us His Spirit so that we may freely choose to live in His love, by His priorities.

    And still, we are ready to be led by His word if He should want to give us a more direct word, as well--although this is not the norm. Baptism is indeed a commitment to put off all the independent ways of men, choosing to live in an eternal partnership with God, always in deference to His Spirit.

    But your point about Protestants missing the mark I think is a little off. Protestants focus on "heaven" not in the sense they ignore the point about our inheritance on earth, but rather, to focus on the God of heaven. "Heaven," as such, is just another term for "God."

    Thus, the Protestant focus on Heaven is a focus on the fact that our salvation happens when we become allied with God, and become, in effect, one with Him spiritually. This is essential if we are to inherit the new earth, and reside in His Kingdom.

    I don't completely disagree with you either. Sometimes there is this Protestant focus on Heaven to the exclusion of earthly matters. I've seen a serious dichotomy created between religion in "heaven" and life on earth. The spiritual and the secular are completely separated, and I think this is wrong.

    This is what happened to me in my upbringing. Spiritual things were reserved exclusively for Sunday church, while the rest of the week was a "secular time." We kept the "10 Commandments" during the week day, but hardly presented much of an open testimony of Christ to the world. We kept silent except on Sundays.

    This was a major wrong in my upbringing. So I thank you for bringing up the point, if that's what you meant!
    Actually, my posting was general to anybody who is interested. I did start to respond to your last answer to me, but calculated that it would not change anything. Scripture gives SIX reasons for being Baptized, I have mentioned five in a previous posting and was just giving the sixth. Actually, it is the first of six and the underlying principle. God does NOT fix broken things. He buries them. And it is not your sins He buried. It is you. You are, in this present life, like me, unfit for the Kingdom. Your sins were carried by Him to the cross (1st Pet.2.24). Your bodily composition of flesh and blood needs to be buried - and will be - anon. It is sown in corruption to be raised in incorruption. Baptism is the temporary substitute because God needs you alive now.

    I abide by your dismissal of these SIX reasons as them making the subject too complicated. It is your right. As to your upbringing, we all carry things from that time. But they will not be heard at the Judgment Seat of Christ. A man who has free will is responsible for himself. If you choose to ignore the multiplicity of Baptism, you carry that decision to the Bema. If you have been Baptized, Bravo for you. At least you were obedient. But what a pity to discard such riches from God's revelation, "... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name" (Psalm 138:2c). Let us be found honoring His Word - not discarding it.

  6. #21
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Actually, my posting was general to anybody who is interested. I did start to respond to your last answer to me, but calculated that it would not change anything. Scripture gives SIX reasons for being Baptized, I have mentioned five in a previous posting and was just giving the sixth. Actually, it is the first of six and the underlying principle. God does NOT fix broken things. He buries them. And it is not your sins He buried. It is you. You are, in this present life, like me, unfit for the Kingdom. Your sins were carried by Him to the cross (1st Pet.2.24). Your bodily composition of flesh and blood needs to be buried - and will be - anon. It is sown in corruption to be raised in incorruption. Baptism is the temporary substitute because God needs you alive now.

    I abide by your dismissal of these SIX reasons as them making the subject too complicated. It is your right. As to your upbringing, we all carry things from that time. But they will not be heard at the Judgment Seat of Christ. A man who has free will is responsible for himself. If you choose to ignore the multiplicity of Baptism, you carry that decision to the Bema. If you have been Baptized, Bravo for you. At least you were obedient. But what a pity to discard such riches from God's revelation, "... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name" (Psalm 138:2c). Let us be found honoring His Word - not discarding it.
    I'm sorry you took my commentary so hard! I don't have the best style, brother. I think I was trying to say that I *don't* dismiss some of your points--they are biblical. I was just trying to explain that understanding the depths of what Baptism means is too complicated for the new believer--and Baptism is for the new believer.

    Later on, the believer can explore the full meaning of Baptism. And I think that's what you're getting at?

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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm sorry you took my commentary so hard! I don't have the best style, brother. I think I was trying to say that I *don't* dismiss some of your points--they are biblical. I was just trying to explain that understanding the depths of what Baptism means is too complicated for the new believer--and Baptism is for the new believer.

    Later on, the believer can explore the full meaning of Baptism. And I think that's what you're getting at?
    I too probably used the wrong words. Sorry. I do, by all means, allow your point of view. My only comment then is that the new Believer must not understand. He/she must just obey. The understanding might come later if he/she has access to a teacher. Faith is for salvation. Faith is for rebirth. Faith is for eternal life. But the Kingdom is a matter of obedience (Matt.7:21). Is not your experience that the Lord OFTEN requires a course of action that we don't understand? But He is emphatic in Proverbs 3:5; "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." Go well bro.

  8. #23

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Quite the contrary, I think that it's you who are failing to see how I'm applying Baptism very simply. In other words, in over-complicating it you feel it isn't being properly treated.

    But what if it is really this simple? What if Baptism is purely a simple reference back to the idea that God inundated the corrupt world of Noah's Day to destroy wickedness from the earth, and that Christians, in partaking of this ritual, admit the dangers of sin within ourselves and our need to dispose of sin in ourselves?

    As new Christians we come out of our sins and out of the sinful world to demonstrate before the world that we have chosen a different way of life, free from the contaminations of sin. We embrace the spiritual life of Christ as the means to living in this new righteousness, enabling us to avoid the judgment that God showed was the fate of human wickedness in the days of Noah.

    Baptism is a simple initiation ritual, a public proclamation of a change of direction in our lives. We embrace a new community, different from the sinful world. That's all Baptism is--a symbol of a new beginning. A new believer could never get into all the esoterics of what you are describing. Again, it over-complicates it.

    For the advanced Christian it may indeed suggest some of the things you mention. But Baptism is just a ritual designed for new believers, for repentant sinners. I was baptized as a baby, and certainly had no inkling of what repentance was, or in what a future inheritance in God was. In my teens, after indulging in a sinful lifestyle for a time, I repented and got rebaptized.

    Even then I could only see Baptism as a ritual, as a public proclamation of my repentance and conversion back to Christian ways. And at that time it was still somewhat confusing for me because as a Christian raised from birth I also over-complicated it. I had never really left Christianity--just backslid, and didn't feel that I was becoming a Christian for the 2nd time!


    but brother don't you see the value in learning what the bible says baptism means ?

  9. #24

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, and I do appreciate you sharing your thoughts. I see Baptism as just an initiation ritual into Christianity, and a public confession to the community around us. But the implications of becoming a Christian is everything you're describing. I don't believe Baptism is necessary for salvation. It's what Baptism represents that is important, and you have ably explained this in showing that there are actually 2 baptisms. Water Baptism simply symbolizes the Spirit Baptism Christ came to bring us.


    Water baptism is a command of Jesus Christ , for the remission of sins brother . Consider this " I believe that Jesus Christ is the Christ , he is the one who knows the things I want to know, I believe that if Jesus , who is the only one who can offer salvation and eternal life Jesus who is the lord of heaven and earth says go teach all people , baptize them in my name , if then Peter and Paul both take the time in thier letters to address the subject of what baptism means for the church , then I have Jesus saying this which who is ever going to say this is not true ? When Jesus Christ proclaimed it


    " go into all the world , preach the gospel to every creature whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved ...whoever does not believe shall be damned "


    you see at this point because my faith is in Jesus .....I will never make the question " does someone really need to be baptized for salvation?" Because Jesus my lord and savior said it , the epistles and especially the book of acts testify and offer revelation into the knowledge of what baptism is , what it means , ect...


    faith doesn't say I believe in Jesus but....I don't believe what he said about baptism or what the apostles all taught of baptism ....faith is like Abraham , God said " get up and leave your home Abram and I will make you the father of many nations and increase you greatly and bless you ....so Abram packed up his things and people even his cousin followed and he did what God said , he didn't even yet tell him where to go but Abram had faith in Gods word so he saw God saying " do this " ....as a certain promise of " God is going to make me the father of many nations and bless me and increase me" he knew Gods faithfulness to give the promise , so Gods instruction is sure blessing and life if Abram does it....


    baptism is important or it wouldn't be a commandment ofmjesus Christ . But that being said I'm sure he's not looking to condemn someone who never got around to baptism , or a young person or something you know ....it's not a rigid rule that if you don't hurry and get baptized now you may be lost if you believe or anything ....all I'm saying is it's important , John the Baptist spoke of it , jesus commanded it to his apostles to be done, Peter commanded it the moment Gentiles received the Holy Spirit , Paul actually baptized apoplectic himself a few times , and does it in Jesus name for the Ephesians in order that they receive the spirit , because they were baptized before his death and resurrection and hadn't heard the gospel fully concerning the spirit being received in his name...

    it's important because like Jesus blood was shed for the remission. Of sins , baptism is an act of faith that includes us , in his death as Romans six explains . Sin requires death , that's the only reason Jesus was necessitated to come and shed his blood and lay down his life , all had sinned and were condemned to eternal death. Just as like Adam sinned and was condemned , so all men sin and are condemned in the flesh. his death , is accepted by God in our place , so that when our condemned body dies our spirit does not go to the grave with it , but belongs unto the body of Jesus who is in heaven.

    Baptism regards the inclusion into the body ofmchrist , the phrase we use often . We are included in his death , this remits our spiritual debt to the spiritual grave of Sheol or hell because of our sins, and our spirit waits with the saints when we die . Where Jesus is u til he returns , and we receive the heaven,y bodies we are promised , those incorruptible and glorious resurrection bodies that are promised in scripture . If our spirit is saved through Christ and the gospel , our spirit will never die we will just leave our body , and wait in peace until the restoration of the flesh of eternal life , the new heaven and new earth ect....


    baptism seems to be important to Jesus ....and in doctrine of the apostles . God bless bro ....I'm not looking to argue with you just like discussion . All I'm really saying as confusing as I can sometimes seem ....is faith hears and accepts and keeps the word rather than looking for reasons it's not actually necessary or not really needed ....what if Abram had heard God say " go out leave your homeland and I'll show you where to go and I will make you great " ....then Abram said " lord you are God I believe you will bless me with your promise even if I just stay home and don't actually obey you....


    would Abram be represented as he is in the bible ?

  10. #25

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I too probably used the wrong words. Sorry. I do, by all means, allow your point of view. My only comment then is that the new Believer must not understand. He/she must just obey. The understanding might come later if he/she has access to a teacher. Faith is for salvation. Faith is for rebirth. Faith is for eternal life. But the Kingdom is a matter of obedience (Matt.7:21). Is not your experience that the Lord OFTEN requires a course of action that we don't understand? But He is emphatic in Proverbs 3:5; "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." Go well bro.

    I like this post bro it's a good one ....

    we're taught a lot about the ancients before the law came when faith is the subject.

    God decided in Genesis 6 to destroy mankind from the earth because we had become wicked at heart and corrupted the earth , but he has grace for Noah and tells Noah what's going to happen , and he then gives him instructions on how to build the arks and save himself and his family and even animal species .....by faith , Noah believed Gid was going to flood the earth like he said , so he just did what God told him to do ....that's faith , he believed Gods word , and so he acted ...

    Abraham God came to him and said " get out of this country of your homeland and I'll show you a better place where I will bless you and make you a great nation and the father of many nations" Abraham believed what God said to him , so he packed up and left as commanded , he didn't know yet where he was going , but he was moving based on Gods promise , both his instruction, and the promise of what would result in his obedience . "Do this , and I will do this for you " faith believes it doesn't need to be fully informed ever ...


    in fact the simplest faith that just hears and obeys like you are saying there brother ....is the greatest faith maybe they can't explain what baptism means in scripture ...or maybe they can't quote a psalm or name all the apostles ect....but they've heard the truth of the gospel and they obey the commandment ofmjesus Christ and walk in his love for others , in deed and truth. Understanding sometimes is t the answer at all but causes more accountability when one is struggling with what they already know....

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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    I like this post bro it's a good one ....

    we're taught a lot about the ancients before the law came when faith is the subject.

    God decided in Genesis 6 to destroy mankind from the earth because we had become wicked at heart and corrupted the earth , but he has grace for Noah and tells Noah what's going to happen , and he then gives him instructions on how to build the arks and save himself and his family and even animal species .....by faith , Noah believed Gid was going to flood the earth like he said , so he just did what God told him to do ....that's faith , he believed Gods word , and so he acted ...

    Abraham God came to him and said " get out of this country of your homeland and I'll show you a better place where I will bless you and make you a great nation and the father of many nations" Abraham believed what God said to him , so he packed up and left as commanded , he didn't know yet where he was going , but he was moving based on Gods promise , both his instruction, and the promise of what would result in his obedience . "Do this , and I will do this for you " faith believes it doesn't need to be fully informed ever ...


    in fact the simplest faith that just hears and obeys like you are saying there brother ....is the greatest faith maybe they can't explain what baptism means in scripture ...or maybe they can't quote a psalm or name all the apostles ect....but they've heard the truth of the gospel and they obey the commandment ofmjesus Christ and walk in his love for others , in deed and truth. Understanding sometimes is t the answer at all but causes more accountability when one is struggling with what they already know....
    Agreed .

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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by pdun459 View Post
    I'm undecided on the baptism question. We're saved by God's grace through faith, that's a given. But there are certain scriptures that seem to indicate that baptism is necessary for salvation. I'll just have to say I'm not sure, but every new convert should get baptized as soon as possible. That's the New Testament model.
    Hello and welcome to the Forum.

    See if you can get anything from my postings #3 and #18. They address what you have said here.

    God bless.

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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    Water baptism is a command of Jesus Christ , for the remission of sins brother . Consider this " I believe that Jesus Christ is the Christ , he is the one who knows the things I want to know, I believe that if Jesus , who is the only one who can offer salvation and eternal life Jesus who is the lord of heaven and earth says go teach all people , baptize them in my name , if then Peter and Paul both take the time in thier letters to address the subject of what baptism means for the church , then I have Jesus saying this which who is ever going to say this is not true ? When Jesus Christ proclaimed it

    " go into all the world , preach the gospel to every creature whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved ...whoever does not believe shall be damned "

    you see at this point because my faith is in Jesus .....I will never make the question " does someone really need to be baptized for salvation?" Because Jesus my lord and savior said it , the epistles and especially the book of acts testify and offer revelation into the knowledge of what baptism is , what it means , ect...
    I appreciate your wanting to follow Jesus' words, but you have to understand how he meant those words--not just scan over the surface of what he said and draw false conclusions. Jesus did not legalistically command his apostles to practice Baptism as part of the New Covenant. Jesus carried on John the Baptist's commission to practice water baptism. But Water Baptism was somewhat downplayed as a non-essential part of the Kingdom message.

    Baptism was only a peripheral matter designed to support the main message, which was that repentance was necessary in anticipation of the coming of the Kingdom of God. Baptism was just a public ritual to testify that repentance was taking place, and that a change of life was taking place. Repentance was the essential part--not the ritual, demonstrating that intention.

    Paul certainly downplayed Baptism as a ritual. It was what it represented that was important--not the ritual itself.

    If you will carefully take a 2nd look at the Great Commission you will see this. You will see that Baptism was being used as a support mechanism, and not as the main issue. Those who repent--whether by Baptism or not--will be saved. But since, at the present time, Water Baptism was being used to show repentance, then "those who repent *and are baptized* will be saved."

  14. #29

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    I think baptism (i.e. immersion; greek "baptizo" literally means to dip) should not be under-emphasized or over-emphasized. In Romans 6 Paul says that (verse 4) "we were buried therefore with him [Christ] by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." ... In verse 5 "For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his." ... Peter calls baptism an "appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:21). Jesus says in Mark 16:16 "whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned..." ... I'm not sure if you take Mark 16:9-20 as inspired scripture or not, but Jesus first says "believes", and then, "is baptized"... not "whoever is baptized and believes..." I mean when we have faith in God and in Jesus I think we should be wanting to do what he says... To my awareness Jesus never explicitly says verbatim "If you don't get baptized you're going to hell." So Christians should not say that either. But then we might talk about what faith is.. Paul says in Romans 10:10 that with the heart one believes and is justified. Whoever wrote the book of Hebrews says in 11:1 that faith is the "assurance of things hoped for" and the "conviction of things not seen". When we actually believe with the heart -- (and I believe the heart involves feelings, thoughts, motives, desires, intentions, fears, hopes, etc, etc...) we will know it, and to a certain extent also feel it, I think. We both know and feel it. I think faith is more than just a "intellectual decision", though it may include an intellectual decision. When you believe, you might say that God takes all of the stuff in your heart and uses it to believe. When we talk about conviction, feelings and thoughts are obviously involved. There are elements of personal experience to belief and faith... and when we talk about free will, we, I think, should be discussing what you might call a dynamic relationship between man and God. The wills of both man and God may be involved in a man having faith in God... I mean if you have someone who lived a really wicked life (stole, cheated, lied, murdered, fornicated, etc) so that his desires and his thoughts and his life and his will and his heart are bent on evil and wickedness, and then later he decides to become a Christian -- it MIGHT be less easy for him to believe in Jesus than it is for someone who has not been so wicked and has not such a wicked heart at his point in life yet. You see what I'm saying? Faith is more than just an intellectual decision because it involves your heart and your will, and your heart and your will might take a longer time to change than just saying something that you may or may not believe in your "heart", in your "core", or as they say, "deep down." I'm talking about faith because it is crucial, I think, to understand baptism. Once you have the will to follow Jesus -- and not just blindly follow rules -- I mean, we need to follow the "rules" of Christ, live by the "law" of Christ, but this law inherently is one of freedom or liberty (James 1:25). Once we actually understand this fundamental thing, we should want to do whatever Jesus says. I mean I know we all grow and it takes time but instead of relying on our own logic and our own understanding to try to "get" this, if we just accept the word I think it goes much easier... then barriers between people should be broken down, people begin living in harmony, people begin loving each other, caring about each other, serving each other in genuine love, etc, etc, etc. This is what God wants, he wants mercy...

    I don't have all the answers but I think this is accurate...

    Josh
    The eyes of the LORD are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.

  15. #30

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The most common debate concerning Baptism is; "is it necessary for salvation?" This is because Christianity at large still hangs firmly to the Roman Catholic myth that salvation is about going to heaven. The Reformers rightly fought for the truth of salvation by faith rather than works, but did not stop to consider the whole matter. If they had questioned EVERYTHING that Catholicism had injected into Christianity, they would have seen that the whole matter of salvation is not about heaven, but about the earth. From Genesis 1:26-28, through Abraham entering Covenant with God for a piece of the earth "for an everlasting possession", through Israel gaining and losing their piece of earth, through Daniel's prophecies of God crushing Gentile rule and setting up an "everlasting Kingdom" that "FILLED the earth", through our Lord Jesus coming with the gospel of "Thy (God's) will being done on earth as it is in heaven", through the parables where where God's faithful servants "inherit the earth", to the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus TO EARTH to establish an everlasting Kingdom over the earth and its nations, the whole Bible points to God not giving up His immutable council that men, and not angels, are to rule the earth (Heb.2:5, 16).

    And of this Kingdom, the inspired record informs us that, "... flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1st Corinthians 15:50). The combination of the flesh enlivened by the blood of Adam is singularly inadequate for ruling this earth - and God had no plans to spare it. In the very beginning He bans Adam from the Tree of Life "... lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" (Genesis 3:22). God does not patch up broken things. He lets it die and starts afresh. So, EVERY man that is involved in God's plan for the earth must DIE and then be resurrected with a new and heavenly body (2nd Corinthians 5:1-4). And those alive at the dawn of this Kingdom must "be changed" (1st Cor.15:51-52). But if every man that God chose to be part of His unchangeable plan for the earth was to die on the spot, God would loose His testimony on earth. So He sets forth a temporary SUBSTITUTE for this required and inevitable death. The man of God must admit to the inadequacy of flesh and blood and "DIE" like the world of flesh did at Noah's time - by IMMERSION.

    If any man who has been called and chosen by God for His plan with the earth upholds the flesh and blood, and REFUSES to symbolically "DIE", he, in effect, contradicts God concerning this corrupted flesh. The word "Hebrew" means "River Crosser". Abraham, to occupy the Land, must pass through a "flood" - the river Euphrates (Josh:24:2). Israel, after building Satan's treasure cities and worshiping idols in Egypt, must pass through a "flood" (Josh.24:14-15) ere they can inherit the Land. Israel, having before their eyes the inadequacy of the flesh to keep the Law over 1,500 years, must, at the hand of the "greatest man born of a woman" - John Baptist, be buried in the "flood" of the Jordan. And then the Inheritor of all things - Jesus Christ, COMMANDS all His disciples to be buried under water in His Name. If any man refuses passing through the flood of water, he defies God's plan. He CANNOT be partaker of the Land if he remains on THAT SIDE of the flood.

    Israel journey towards the Land and arrive at Jordan in flood. For the Land to be gained TWO things must happen. (i) Twelve Tribes - the full number of God's People, went down through the depth of the river, and (ii) Twelve stones for the full number of God's people, are taken UP OUT from the flood and placed as a monument on the side of the Land. They are Hebrews. They are "River Crossers". Any man who did not cross the River had no part of the Good Land. Likewise, we Christians are also "River Crossers". God COMMANDS that we be IMMERSED to symbolically DIE for His plan. Who of the Israelites dared not cross the River? Who of us Christians dares to thwart God's plan to have a People who acknowledge that the flesh and blood must be cut off because they cannot inherit the earth. The Christian who refuses this direct command of God is a REBEL. He maintains the validity of flesh and blood. He contradicts God. He makes himself to know better than God. He refuses God's requirement.

    Baptism is not for salvation. Baptism is for the EARTH. We are SAVED to be HEIRS. Any Christian who is saved and does not inherit the earth is likened to Esau - whom God hated! He DESPISED HIS BIRTHRIGHT! Christians are BORN again for the Kingdom (John 3:3), but to ENTER the Kingdom, he, like the Twelve Stones of Joshua 4, must come out of the death waters TO GAIN THE LAND (John.3:5)

    according to any verses of scripture where does it say baptism is not necessary? Again according to scripture ? I have shown those such as Jesus Christ saying


    “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
    **Mark‬ *16:15-16‬ *KJV‬‬


    you see at this point your argument against the necessary of baptism is futile , Jesus Christ stated this. For us then to explain in our thinking and parsed together ideas that directly contradict the lords own words....seems a dangerous road for Christians to follow. Sometimes we out think the simplicity of things .

    There is nothing in the entire bible that suggests baptism is not necassay not important , a mere ritual . Not a single verse states anything close. it's actually a central and basic doctrine that shouldn't even ever have been suggested it's not necessary , it's like the serpent God said something , he comes along and says " did God really say that? Surely you don't need to be live what he said let me tell you something else "


    can you find any actual in context verse that suggests baptism is in necessary ? Again , I know your own thoughts I'm asking is there any scriptural verses from the bible that support your thinking? Or did you receive this by revelation ?

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