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Thread: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

  1. #31

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    according to any verses of scripture where does it say baptism is not necessary? Again according to scripture ? I have shown those such as Jesus Christ saying


    “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
    **Mark‬ *16:15-16‬ *KJV‬‬


    you see at this point your argument against the necessary of baptism is futile , Jesus Christ stated this. For us then to explain in our thinking and parsed together ideas that directly contradict the lords own words....seems a dangerous road for Christians to follow. Sometimes we out think the simplicity of things .

    There is nothing in the entire bible that suggests baptism is not necassay not important , a mere ritual . Not a single verse states anything close. it's actually a central and basic doctrine that shouldn't even ever have been suggested it's not necessary , it's like the serpent God said something , he comes along and says " did God really say that? Surely you don't need to be live what he said let me tell you something else "


    can you find any actual in context verse that suggests baptism is in necessary ? Again , I know your own thoughts I'm asking is there any scriptural verses from the bible that support your thinking? Or did you receive this by revelation ?
    “Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

    “Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.”
    **Hebrews‬ *6:1-3‬ *KJV‬‬

    repentance of sin, baptism , the doctrine of Christ, the resurrection of the dead, eternal judgement ....these are all basic , foundational principles of the gospel. There's no reason any Christian should ever have the idea " do I really need to get baptized ? " if one can't obey one simple commandment for the lord of heaven and eart , whomsuffered and died for thier salvation....I'm. Ot sure faith is something they actually possess.

    to see Gods word as a question of whether he is right about something , to take something he says is important and then make that thing unimportant is not a good path . We're not meant to re invent the gospel but to share the things Jesus taught and commanded . Why do we question and invent reasons why our thoughts somehow outweigh the scriptures which men have learned from and trusted since God began speaking to mankind?

    it's been the flaw in man from the beginning to simply not believe Gods word, to question and doubt and eventually disregard his word is the root of sin

  2. #32

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua1 View Post
    I think baptism (i.e. immersion; greek "baptizo" literally means to dip) should not be under-emphasized or over-emphasized. In Romans 6 Paul says that (verse 4) "we were buried therefore with him [Christ] by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." ... In verse 5 "For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his." ... Peter calls baptism an "appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:21). Jesus says in Mark 16:16 "whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned..." ... I'm not sure if you take Mark 16:9-20 as inspired scripture or not, but Jesus first says "believes", and then, "is baptized"... not "whoever is baptized and believes..." I mean when we have faith in God and in Jesus I think we should be wanting to do what he says... To my awareness Jesus never explicitly says verbatim "If you don't get baptized you're going to hell." So Christians should not say that either. But then we might talk about what faith is.. Paul says in Romans 10:10 that with the heart one believes and is justified. Whoever wrote the book of Hebrews says in 11:1 that faith is the "assurance of things hoped for" and the "conviction of things not seen". When we actually believe with the heart -- (and I believe the heart involves feelings, thoughts, motives, desires, intentions, fears, hopes, etc, etc...) we will know it, and to a certain extent also feel it, I think. We both know and feel it. I think faith is more than just a "intellectual decision", though it may include an intellectual decision. When you believe, you might say that God takes all of the stuff in your heart and uses it to believe. When we talk about conviction, feelings and thoughts are obviously involved. There are elements of personal experience to belief and faith... and when we talk about free will, we, I think, should be discussing what you might call a dynamic relationship between man and God. The wills of both man and God may be involved in a man having faith in God... I mean if you have someone who lived a really wicked life (stole, cheated, lied, murdered, fornicated, etc) so that his desires and his thoughts and his life and his will and his heart are bent on evil and wickedness, and then later he decides to become a Christian -- it MIGHT be less easy for him to believe in Jesus than it is for someone who has not been so wicked and has not such a wicked heart at his point in life yet. You see what I'm saying? Faith is more than just an intellectual decision because it involves your heart and your will, and your heart and your will might take a longer time to change than just saying something that you may or may not believe in your "heart", in your "core", or as they say, "deep down." I'm talking about faith because it is crucial, I think, to understand baptism. Once you have the will to follow Jesus -- and not just blindly follow rules -- I mean, we need to follow the "rules" of Christ, live by the "law" of Christ, but this law inherently is one of freedom or liberty (James 1:25). Once we actually understand this fundamental thing, we should want to do whatever Jesus says. I mean I know we all grow and it takes time but instead of relying on our own logic and our own understanding to try to "get" this, if we just accept the word I think it goes much easier... then barriers between people should be broken down, people begin living in harmony, people begin loving each other, caring about each other, serving each other in genuine love, etc, etc, etc. This is what God wants, he wants mercy...

    I don't have all the answers but I think this is accurate...

    Josh


    yes I like this post thank you .

    my point is this regarding baptism , there's absolutely no reason other than a lack of belief in the gospel , that one would. Ot run to get baptized just like all the people did in the bible . When they heard the voice in the wilderness of John the Baptist proclaiming " repent for the kingdom of heaven is near" they understood this meant the promised messiah was about to be revealed as scripture had foretold John the baptists coming just before the messiah .

    it's no coincidence that it is this time when the act of water baptism begins being practiced . They had been waiting for the messiah , who would bring salvation for hundreds of years, they were waiting according to the promises of the prophets.

    “And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins; As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.”
    **Luke‬ *3:3-6‬ *KJV‬‬


    this is only one prophecy concerning John the Baptist and water baptism for the remission of sins. It continues repetitively from this point on through the book of acts is water baptism a main principle of doctrine , in the epistles we're learning the depth of spiritual meaning it has to us who have been baptized . It's actually a very important doctrinal point , johns ministry of baptism for the remission of sins prepares us for Jesus Christ . It appears in scripture also a few times in the prophets , there's nothing to make us think in scripture that something God has clearly commanded , should then be made not necessary that's why the church is so divided in belief of almost any subject.

    if one just considers the scripture and what it says concerning baptism of water and spirit , there's no conclusion anywhere that it's not necessary.


    this all being said , again , God is not looking to send a believer in Jesus to hell because they didn't follow through with baptism, he's been making provision for mans mistakes and sin forever , so I don't think a decent person who believes and dies sufpddenly , or for whatever reason doesn't get baptized is lost, that's between Jesus and them it has nothing to do with my judgement ....all I'm saying is according to the bible there's no thought anywhere that it's in necessary it's actually made important consistently and I don't get where the idea even comes from why we should question whether what Jesus said to do , what all his apostles did and taught the chirch to do ....that's what Adam fell for in Eden.


    Why not get baptized if a person believes ? It's pretty readily available in any town or even rural area that a church or pastor would baptize one....it's like we come up with excuses why we don't want to do it , and then we make that part of what we share with others " well I don't think it's necessary really" but what we've done is shared our wisdom that is not coming from the scripture . If we just learn that what Jesus and the gospel teaches is what we're supposed to do , and let him decide if each person is saved whether they are baptized or not , we'll do much better.

    God isn't looking for reasons to condemn believers , but has come and is present to save us through mercy

  3. #33
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    according to any verses of scripture where does it say baptism is not necessary? Again according to scripture ? I have shown those such as Jesus Christ saying


    “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
    **Mark‬ *16:15-16‬ *KJV‬‬


    you see at this point your argument against the necessary of baptism is futile , Jesus Christ stated this. For us then to explain in our thinking and parsed together ideas that directly contradict the lords own words....seems a dangerous road for Christians to follow. Sometimes we out think the simplicity of things .

    There is nothing in the entire bible that suggests baptism is not necassay not important , a mere ritual . Not a single verse states anything close. it's actually a central and basic doctrine that shouldn't even ever have been suggested it's not necessary , it's like the serpent God said something , he comes along and says " did God really say that? Surely you don't need to be live what he said let me tell you something else "


    can you find any actual in context verse that suggests baptism is in necessary ? Again , I know your own thoughts I'm asking is there any scriptural verses from the bible that support your thinking? Or did you receive this by revelation ?
    I think you might have misread my posting. Of all the posters on this Forum I am one of the most energetic proponents of full water immersion in the name of Jesus. I have given six reasons in my various postings. May I ask you to read my posting again. Thanks bro.

  4. #34

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I appreciate your wanting to follow Jesus' words, but you have to understand how he meant those words--not just scan over the surface of what he said and draw false conclusions. Jesus did not legalistically command his apostles to practice Baptism as part of the New Covenant. Jesus carried on John the Baptist's commission to practice water baptism. But Water Baptism was somewhat downplayed as a non-essential part of the Kingdom message.

    Baptism was only a peripheral matter designed to support the main message, which was that repentance was necessary in anticipation of the coming of the Kingdom of God. Baptism was just a public ritual to testify that repentance was taking place, and that a change of life was taking place. Repentance was the essential part--not the ritual, demonstrating that intention.

    Paul certainly downplayed Baptism as a ritual. It was what it represented that was important--not the ritual itself.

    If you will carefully take a 2nd look at the Great Commission you will see this. You will see that Baptism was being used as a support mechanism, and not as the main issue. Those who repent--whether by Baptism or not--will be saved. But since, at the present time, Water Baptism was being used to show repentance, then "those who repent *and are baptized* will be saved."

    lol okay brother I have spent about thirty years in Jesus words prayerfully , I appreciate all of your ideas but a lot of them are contrary to plain scripture that no one needs to figure out , it's just meant to learn from , not argue against because of our special knowledge . I'm not like you we've had discussions before about this you know my faith is based on what the bible actually says , you can say I don't get it m I respect that , but it's not hard to just accept plain statements in scripture...


    you say Paul downplayed baptism ....prove it show the scriptures where he did , don't just claim he did , show it in scripture .....no one , not one verse will you find where baptism of water is " downplayed" or made less important , or that the meaning of water baptism changed from johns remission of sins, to the same exact thing Peter and Paul said its for , the remission of sins .


    I know you don't really know and trust what the scripture says these things mean, but I do though . When you are telling me it's one thing and allllllll the scripture says it's another .....it's not that I don't understand , it's that I don't agree with you. Why can I always show you a statement in scripture and you just say " no no you don't get it look again " your basing everything on what you think bro , even if you are clearly opposite of scripture you still will hold your opinion. You look at it as I'm agprguing " my view " against your " view" and that's cool , it's not what I'm doing though , I'm talking about what the bible says about things not what I think things mean ....


    again what does baptism mean ? Why do we get baptized ?

    “And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;”
    **Luke‬ *3:3‬ *KJV‬‬

    “For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
    **Matthew‬ *26:28‬ *KJV‬‬



    “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
    **Mark‬ *16:15-16‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”
    **Matthew‬ *28:18-19‬ *KJV‬‬


    “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
    **Acts‬ *2:38‬ *KJV‬‬


    “And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?”
    **
    And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
    **Acts‬ *10:42-45, 48‬ *KJV‬‬


    Paul downplayed baptism?



    “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”
    **Romans‬ *6:3-6‬ *KJV‬‬


    ......brother it's hard to discuss with you because I'm here to discuss what the bible says , not what people invent that contradicts and disagrees with scripture ...it's just a circular thing that I don't want to participate in. I love discussion what the scripture says about things , and I am totally against the special interpretations that actually tell you the opposite of what the scriptures say ......

  5. #35

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I think you might have misread my posting. Of all the posters on this Forum I am one of the most energetic proponents of full water immersion in the name of Jesus. I have given six reasons in my various postings. May I ask you to read my posting again. Thanks bro.

    I read it bro , baptism is for the remission of sin , one cannot be saved in thier sins ......baptism does matter for salvation. It's not even complex it's repeated in scripture .


    we are baptized for the remission of sin . We do this as an act of faith we are included in the death and burial of Jesus Christ for sins. This is necessary because sin requires the death of the sinner it's an eternal principle. Jesus death remits sin , the shedding of his blood is the propitiation for the believers sins , baptism is the act of faith that includes us in his death, without his death there is no remission of sin, and no salvation.


    what I'm saying is it's all about salvation. but again, Gods not looking to condemn people but to save them . It's not a rigid rule of stone and also tragedies happen in life sometimes someone intends to get baptized but something happens or maybe someone doesn't even really know baptism is a doctrinal point ect....We have the most understanding and loving God who's always been there for us , I'm sure salvation is about the love of God , and those who walk therein.... There near the end your explaining baptism isn't about salvation? But what I'm saying is there's a lot that says it is and nothing in scripture to say it isn't .

  6. #36
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    I read it bro , baptism is for the remission of sin , one cannot be saved in thier sins ......baptism does matter for salvation. It's not even complex it's repeated in scripture .


    we are baptized for the remission of sin . We do this as an act of faith we are included in the death and burial of Jesus Christ for sins. This is necessary because sin requires the death of the sinner it's an eternal principle. Jesus death remits sin , the shedding of his blood is the propitiation for the believers sins , baptism is the act of faith that includes us in his death, without his death there is no remission of sin, and no salvation.


    what I'm saying is it's all about salvation. but again, Gods not looking to condemn people but to save them . It's not a rigid rule of stone and also tragedies happen in life sometimes someone intends to get baptized but something happens or maybe someone doesn't even really know baptism is a doctrinal point ect....We have the most understanding and loving God who's always been there for us , I'm sure salvation is about the love of God , and those who walk therein.... There near the end your explaining baptism isn't about salvation? But what I'm saying is there's a lot that says it is and nothing in scripture to say it isn't .
    I am surprised that you come to this conclusion. In my first posting, posting #3, I laid out man's full salvation in four stages. In the fifth paragraph I categorically stated that Baptism is involved in THREE of these four. I then proceeded to show how. How then can you come to the conclusion that I think Baptism is not necessary? But I think I see what happened. My statement in the last paragraph of the posting you have contended with could be misleading if taken by itself and out of context. You state in your objection to brother Randyk that you love only the Word of God as it is written. So do I. So if I quote Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God", just because the Holy Spirit has left out Baptism in this verse, does it mean that Baptism isn't important. NO! It is found in other scriptures. So also my posting. I spoke of what Christians THINK is salvation - as my opening paragraph says - and then proceed to show Baptism's importance in its various mentions. You have discarded 95% of my postings to make a point about one sentence.

  7. #37
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    lol okay brother I have spent about thirty years in Jesus words prayerfully , I appreciate all of your ideas but a lot of them are contrary to plain scripture that no one needs to figure out , it's just meant to learn from , not argue against because of our special knowledge . I'm not like you we've had discussions before about this you know my faith is based on what the bible actually says , you can say I don't get it m I respect that , but it's not hard to just accept plain statements in scripture...
    As I said, you're just scanning the surface. The ritual of Baptism is, in fact, downplayed in favor of what it actually meant. The ritual takes 2nd fiddle to the reality it represents!

    Matt 28.19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

    The emphasis here is on *making disciples.* The means of confirming them at that time was through John's Baptism, which was Water Baptism. That Water Baptism had now become symbolic not just of repentance from breaking the Law, but now entering spiritually into Christ. The focus was on *entry into Christ.* Baptism was just an external ceremony representing this.

    Matt 3.11 I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

    Note that John the Baptist here emphasizes not Water Baptism but what it is to represent in the New Covenant--Spirit Baptism into Christ. Again, Water Baptism is looked on as an external ritual representing 1st repentance under the Law, and then immersion into God through Christ. This is the actual teaching Jesus called on his disciples to bring in the Great Commission.

    Mark 10.39 "We can,” they answered. Jesus said to them, “You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with.

    Here, you can't be more clear than Water Baptism is not the essence of Christian Baptism. True Christian Baptism is all about becoming united with Christ spiritually. Water Baptism merely represents this as a superficial ritual. Water Baptism, therefore, is *not* part of salvation--it merely represents our salvation from sin. Water can never physically remove anything but dirt. Spiritual uncleanness is only removed by our Baptism into Christ's pure Spirit.

    Mark 16.16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

    We might read this, "whoever believes and [represents his conversion by the ritual of baptism] will be saved." It is not the act of Baptism that saves--it is only in performing this ritual that it is proven a saving conversion takes place. If the conversion takes place without Baptism the person is still saved.

    But in context Jesus is talking about those who had been proving their conversion by indulging in the act of Baptism. These who have done this will be saved. It does not mean those who have not done that, and yet still converted, will not be saved.

    John 4.2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.

    This is an example of how the Gospel of John downplayed the ritual act of Baptism in favor of the emphasis on being baptized into Jesus spiritually.

    Acts 19.5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

    People had heard of John's Baptism, which was a Water Baptism. They did not understand the difference associated with being Baptized in the name of Jesus. Again, the focus was not on Water Baptism, but rather, on what it represented. It wasn't just a Baptism associated with John, but more a Baptism *into* Jesus spiritually. That's what Baptism *in the name of the Lord Jesus* indicated. It was a Baptism *into* something, namely the Spirit of Christ. In other words, it wasn't just the ritual that was meant. If it was not repentance under the Law, it had to be something else. In this case it was union with the Spirit of Christ.

    Rom 6.3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

    Once again, it is not the external ritual that is important. Rather, it is what it represented that was important--namely, our being baptized into the Spirit of Christ, and receiving the benefits of who Christ was.

    1 Cor 1.14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius

    Paul is here downplaying, or marginalizing, the importance of the external ritual of Baptism, in favor of what it really represents, which is repentance in the name of Christ and union into Christ spiritually.

    1 Cor 1.17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel

    I cannot be any more explicit on the point I'm making than refer you to Paul here, who absolutely places the external rite of Baptism outside of the domain of the Gospel, which alone saves us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    you say Paul downplayed baptism ....prove it show the scriptures where he did , don't just claim he did , show it in scripture .....
    Please consider the Scriptures given you above. They are indeed *Scriptures.* The problem you have is that you are looking at the surface of things. The Scriptures say we must compare Scripture with Scripture--otherwise, we will get an unbalanced perspective. Sometimes one Scripture seems to contradict another Scripture. They don't--we just need to look at the underlying perspective, and address all sides of an issue. Baptism is just an external ritual symbolizing repentance from sin and spiritual entry into Christ. It goes without saying that salvation consists of entering into Christ spiritually--not engaging in rituals that merely represent this!

  8. #38

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    @randyk

    Matt 28.19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.


    The emphasis here is on *making disciples.*
    That is how you are interpreting the verse. Jesus doesn't say that baptism is an external, nonessential ritual.


    Matt 3.11 I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.


    Note that John the Baptist here emphasizes not Water Baptism but what it is to represent in the New Covenant--Spirit Baptism into Christ.
    True that he would baptize believers in the Holy Spirit, -- however, Acts 2:38 links the new water baptism into Christ with this receiving of the Holy Spirit. Note also that John's baptism was temporary (Acts 19:4-6 Paul explained: “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the One coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
    5 On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.)


    Mark 10.39 "We can,” they answered. Jesus said to them, “You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with.

    Here, you can't be more clear than Water Baptism is not the essence of Christian Baptism.

    If I'm understanding this verse correctly, Jesus is talking about his crucifixion and death. Again, in Romans 6 Paul links Jesus's crucifixion and death back to water immersion in Christ's name. The "burial under water" represents us dying with him. Being raised up from the water represents the resurrection... and as Follower1977 was saying, and as Paul says in 1 Cor 15:17, "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins."

    (Paul does go on in verse 20 to state that in fact Christ has been raised from the dead.)


    Mark 16.16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

    We might read this, "whoever believes and [represents his conversion by the ritual of baptism] will be saved."
    That's not the language Jesus used. You need to be very careful not to misrepresent scripture...


    It is not the act of Baptism that saves
    1 Peter 3:21 says: Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

    John 4:1-2
    1When Jesus realized that the Pharisees were aware that He was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John 2(although it was not Jesus who baptized, but His disciples)…


    My thought is - Jesus was baptized by John himself, so I suppose it might not make much sense for Jesus then to baptize others with John's baptism -- also taking into account that later, believers were to be baptized into the name of Jesus himself. The baptism of John and the baptism of Jesus are separate.

    Acts 19.5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

    They did not understand the difference associated with being Baptized in the name of Jesus.
    Well, actually, they did as soon as they got baptized in Jesus's name -- otherwise, why would they have gotten baptized in his name?

    Again, the focus was not on Water Baptism, but rather, on what it represented.
    The water baptism itself does represent the burial with Jesus in his death, and then when we come up out of the water, it represents our resurrection with him. But that fact itself does not negate the need for it; actually, that fact is crucial to understanding baptism...


    Rom 6.3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

    Once again, it is not the external ritual that is important. Rather, it is what it represented that was important--namely, our being baptized into the Spirit of Christ, and receiving the benefits of who Christ was.
    You are jumping from what Paul says in Romans 6:3 to a wrong conclusion. Paul is not saying in Romans 6:3 that baptism is an unimportant or merely an external ritual. In this chapter he is actually detailing its significance, what it represents, and why we, I say, need it.

    1 Cor 1.14-15

    Make sure to include verse 15, because if you just quote 1 Cor 1:14 you're cutting off Paul in midsentence.

    I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name.

    Paul is here downplaying, or marginalizing, the importance of the external ritual of Baptism, in favor of what it really represents, which is repentance in the name of Christ and union into Christ spiritually.
    He's not downplaying baptism; he's making a point (in context) that he is grateful to God that he didn't baptize any of them except these two and some others (see verse 16) so no one would be bragging that "Hey, I got baptized by Paul. You know, he's an apostle, right? I'm better than you." The Corinthian church struggled with divisions and with various issues, tolerating sexual immorality, being jealous, etc, etc. Reading 1 Corinthians 1:10-17 should help to explain what I'm saying about verses 14 and 15. We need to keep the verses in context so we don't misapply them. Before verse 14, in verse 13, Paul says "Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?" … the point is not who baptizes us, but who we are baptized into -- Jesus Christ.

    1 Cor 1:17

    For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with words of wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

    Again, take the verse in context. When Paul says "Christ did not send me to baptize" he is not saying baptism is unimportant. "For Christ did not send me to baptize" -- we are not to be bragging that we got baptized by someone "great" even today, whether a well-known preacher or even the President of the United States -- or in the Corinthians' case, Paul -- but we are to be following Jesus... Paul was sent by Christ to preach the gospel -- specifically. Other people can baptize you -- back then, Paul could too -- but Paul was specifically sent by Jesus to preach the gospel. He became an apostle through Jesus Christ.



    We need to not misapply or even twist scripture. That's not good.


    However, all this being said, though, again, God is the final judge, not me. He knows everything. I can understand the other point of view: No one likes to have "baptism, baptism, baptism" shoved down their throat. The gospel is more than just about getting immersed. What if someone doesn't believe but gets submerged in water? We should remember after all this discussion to keep what's important in mind though. Looking at the 4 gospels, -- Mat, Mark, Luke, John -- I think Jesus talks more about how we are to live rather than how important baptism is. Nevertheless, Jesus does command believers to get baptized in Matthew 28. We should have a comprehensive view of the gospel and how we are supposed to live and what we are to do.

    Josh
    The eyes of the LORD are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.

  9. #39

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    a simple ritual that's un necessary ? Or important ? Consider the volume and this is just part of it ....

    Baptism

    “In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

    Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

    I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
    **Matthew‬ *3:1-3, 5-6, 11-12‬ *KJV‬‬

    John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

    ...And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. ...
    **Mark‬ *1:4, 7-9, ‬ *KJV‬‬



    Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”



    ..."And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

    But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet. This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist:

    but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.”
    **Luke‬ *7:24, 26-30‬ *KJV‬‬

    Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

    It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.......
    **John‬ *6:63‬ *KJV‬‬

    he will baptize with the Holy Ghost....

    “If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth.....

    Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

    These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
    **John‬ *14:15-17, 23-26‬ *KJV‬‬

    “But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?.....Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.”
    **John‬ *16:5, 7‬ *KJV‬‬


    “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
    **Matthew‬ *28:18-20‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned....

    *note the give verse does not say " whoever believes and is not baptized will be damned " only those who do not believe....

    So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”
    **Mark‬ *16:15-16, 19-20‬ *KJV‬‬

    “And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

    For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”
    **Acts‬ *1:4-5‬ *KJV‬‬ ( see above John chapter 14 for Jesus promise)

    “And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

    And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, .....hearken to my words:

    But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

    ....And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

    This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. ( see again Jesus promising he was going to the father and would send the Holy Ghost in John above)

    Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

    Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

    Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
    **Acts‬ *2:1, 4, 14, 16-18, 21-23, 32-33, 36-39, 41‬ *KJV‬‬


    Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

    The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

    How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

    And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; ....... And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

    To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.


    And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
    **Acts‬ *10:34-45, 47-48‬ *KJV‬‬

    Peter speaking of this again

    “And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

    Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.” ( remember above the first thing Peter did was command them to be baptized in water for the remission of sins)
    **Acts‬ *11:15-18‬ *KJV‬‬

    a great example here of the difference in water baptism and the Holy Ghost baptism.

    “But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

    Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

    Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.”
    **Acts‬ *8:12-17‬ *KJV‬‬


    Paul shows clearly the importance of baptism here

    “He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

    Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

    When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.”
    **Acts‬ *19:2-6‬ *KJV‬‬

    here we understand why Paul didn't baptize more often


    “I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.”
    **1 Corinthians‬ *1:14-17‬ *KJV‬‬

    “For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
    **Galatians‬ *3:27-28‬ *KJV‬‬





    There's even a mysterious mention of a practice of those who were being baptized for the dead , that is mentioned no where else in scripture , but Paul does use this question in making his argument concerning the resurrection.mindont understand this verse honestly , but it's there none the less showing the depths of baptisms involvement in the New Testament doctrine , it's a foundational principle it's why it consistently returns to subject matter no matter the book or author , because it's a basic doctrine.

    “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.........Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?”
    **1 Corinthians‬ *15:22, 29‬ *KJV‬‬


    another random example of Philip

    “Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.”
    **Acts‬ *8:35-38‬ *KJV‬‬


    these scriptures are only part of those regarding baptism , or example showing the two baptisms and the difference , when your reading the epistles ...you are learning the understanding of what baptism means the depth of how sin is remitted through baptism being included in his death for sin, And how we are born again of the spirit when we receive the Holy Ghost.

    Paul wasn't sent to baptize as he wrote , but taught a lot about what baptism means , in depth spiritual truths and understanding about baptism and what , why and how's concerning it. Peter also teaches of baptisms meaning in his epistles .

    So just these few examples from only the gospel , the book of acts and a few epistles ....it should at the least be clear that water baptism is an important and very basic principle , that scripture teaches much , about . I didn't even get into the prophecies concerning baptism John the Baptist, remission of sins through Jesus death baptism of the spirit ect.......all of it ties together but there's so much just in the New Testament to make us understand at least it's important not some un important ritual like in the mosaic law. And at the least one should find out what the bible says it means and believe that theory, not offer a contrary one.

    what the bible has to say about baptism is my interest , and it says says a lot ...I'm hoping to find others who want to learn what the bible says and add scriptures they have noticed or discovered in thier studies which pertain to the same topics , subjects ect.

    The thing is , the understanding isn't veiled it's revealed to us plainly. look at some of what they are saying above concerning water baptism , and then shape understanding based solely on what the simple scripture says ...yes some times we run into very hard to grasp passages for sure ,....but mostly in the epistles and gospel , it's plain .

    the epistles aren't ancient prophecy , they are letters which were sent by the apostles to the churches to explain the issues they hadn't understood ....we should understand we're seeing and have available the understanding ofmjesus Christ , Peter, Paul, John , James ....written down these men who were filled with the Holy Ghost , proven by healing others , raising the dead , driving out demons testifying the Holy Ghosts power and truth .....

    the gospel and epistles are true Christian doctrine anything added on later , or taken away later is flawed . We should learn the gospel the bible sets forth it's beautiful and is the only gospel that will actually honor the promises Jesus made of eternal life.

  10. #40

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    As I said, you're just scanning the surface. The ritual of Baptism is, in fact, downplayed in favor of what it actually meant. The ritual takes 2nd fiddle to the reality it represents!

    Matt 28.19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

    The emphasis here is on *making disciples.* The means of confirming them at that time was through John's Baptism, which was Water Baptism. That Water Baptism had now become symbolic not just of repentance from breaking the Law, but now entering spiritually into Christ. The focus was on *entry into Christ.* Baptism was just an external ceremony representing this.

    Matt 3.11 I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

    Note that John the Baptist here emphasizes not Water Baptism but what it is to represent in the New Covenant--Spirit Baptism into Christ. Again, Water Baptism is looked on as an external ritual representing 1st repentance under the Law, and then immersion into God through Christ. This is the actual teaching Jesus called on his disciples to bring in the Great Commission.

    Mark 10.39 "We can,” they answered. Jesus said to them, “You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with.

    Here, you can't be more clear than Water Baptism is not the essence of Christian Baptism. True Christian Baptism is all about becoming united with Christ spiritually. Water Baptism merely represents this as a superficial ritual. Water Baptism, therefore, is *not* part of salvation--it merely represents our salvation from sin. Water can never physically remove anything but dirt. Spiritual uncleanness is only removed by our Baptism into Christ's pure Spirit.

    Mark 16.16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

    We might read this, "whoever believes and [represents his conversion by the ritual of baptism] will be saved." It is not the act of Baptism that saves--it is only in performing this ritual that it is proven a saving conversion takes place. If the conversion takes place without Baptism the person is still saved.

    But in context Jesus is talking about those who had been proving their conversion by indulging in the act of Baptism. These who have done this will be saved. It does not mean those who have not done that, and yet still converted, will not be saved.

    John 4.2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.

    This is an example of how the Gospel of John downplayed the ritual act of Baptism in favor of the emphasis on being baptized into Jesus spiritually.

    Acts 19.5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

    People had heard of John's Baptism, which was a Water Baptism. They did not understand the difference associated with being Baptized in the name of Jesus. Again, the focus was not on Water Baptism, but rather, on what it represented. It wasn't just a Baptism associated with John, but more a Baptism *into* Jesus spiritually. That's what Baptism *in the name of the Lord Jesus* indicated. It was a Baptism *into* something, namely the Spirit of Christ. In other words, it wasn't just the ritual that was meant. If it was not repentance under the Law, it had to be something else. In this case it was union with the Spirit of Christ.

    Rom 6.3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

    Once again, it is not the external ritual that is important. Rather, it is what it represented that was important--namely, our being baptized into the Spirit of Christ, and receiving the benefits of who Christ was.

    1 Cor 1.14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius

    Paul is here downplaying, or marginalizing, the importance of the external ritual of Baptism, in favor of what it really represents, which is repentance in the name of Christ and union into Christ spiritually.

    1 Cor 1.17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel

    I cannot be any more explicit on the point I'm making than refer you to Paul here, who absolutely places the external rite of Baptism outside of the domain of the Gospel, which alone saves us.



    Please consider the Scriptures given you above. They are indeed *Scriptures.* The problem you have is that you are looking at the surface of things. The Scriptures say we must compare Scripture with Scripture--otherwise, we will get an unbalanced perspective. Sometimes one Scripture seems to contradict another Scripture. They don't--we just need to look at the underlying perspective, and address all sides of an issue. Baptism is just an external ritual symbolizing repentance from sin and spiritual entry into Christ. It goes without saying that salvation consists of entering into Christ spiritually--not engaging in rituals that merely represent this!

    brother you have offered zero scriptures suggesting baptism is a ritual and is made less in any way . You showed some scripture I appreciate that , but none of them suggest baptism is not important , all of them actually suggest the understanding for " one must be born of water and spirit to enter into the kingdom of God "

    Receiving the Holy Ghost does. It remit sin brother , there's nothing anywhere to say that , every time people received the Holy Ghost , they were immediately baptized in water ....and it's always stated why , for the remission of sins , I have shown you again and again "they believed and were baptized , and then received the Holy Ghost " or they heard the word and received the Holy Ghost and then they were commanded to be baptized in water for the remission of sins" it occurs repeatedly .


    there's nothing in scripture to suggest anything else friend. What you are doing is using one out of context verse , and then explaining your thoughts , then offering another out of context single verse and explaining your thought ...the epistles are letters , read them as if someone who knows all this stuff better than you , that wrote a letter to you explaining it ....that's what they are . The best way is to look at the commission ofmjesus and just stop there and say ok baptism must not jaunt be a meaningless ritual "Jesus says whoever is baptized and believes shall be saved" there's nothing to ever counter that in scripture . Everything actually supports it fully . Every example of a believer accepting the gospel in scripture they had either been baptized in water , or received the gospel and then were baptized in water for the remission of sins .


    the only difference is John on,y baptized until jesus began his ministry , everyone after the resurrection we are baptized in the water for remission of sins the same way m now in the name of Jesus , because his name was declared and the gospel was sent forth at his resurrection, not beforehand when John was baptizing or he too would have baptized in Jesus name.

    baptism is. I simple ritual that has no meaning ....I'm sorry brother we can't agree on that one , but I appreciate your time and thought and kind spirit always God bless

  11. #41

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    brother you have offered zero scriptures suggesting baptism is a ritual and is made less in any way . You showed some scripture I appreciate that , but none of them suggest baptism is not important , all of them actually suggest the understanding for " one must be born of water and spirit to enter into the kingdom of God "

    Receiving the Holy Ghost does. It remit sin brother , there's nothing anywhere to say that , every time people received the Holy Ghost , they were immediately baptized in water ....and it's always stated why , for the remission of sins , I have shown you again and again "they believed and were baptized , and then received the Holy Ghost " or they heard the word and received the Holy Ghost and then they were commanded to be baptized in water for the remission of sins" it occurs repeatedly .


    there's nothing in scripture to suggest anything else friend. What you are doing is using one out of context verse , and then explaining your thoughts , then offering another out of context single verse and explaining your thought ...the epistles are letters , read them as if someone who knows all this stuff better than you , that wrote a letter to you explaining it ....that's what they are . The best way is to look at the commission ofmjesus and just stop there and say ok baptism must not jaunt be a meaningless ritual "Jesus says whoever is baptized and believes shall be saved" there's nothing to ever counter that in scripture . Everything actually supports it fully . Every example of a believer accepting the gospel in scripture they had either been baptized in water , or received the gospel and then were baptized in water for the remission of sins .


    the only difference is John on,y baptized until jesus began his ministry , everyone after the resurrection we are baptized in the water for remission of sins the same way m now in the name of Jesus , because his name was declared and the gospel was sent forth at his resurrection, not beforehand when John was baptizing or he too would have baptized in Jesus name.

    baptism is. I simple ritual that has no meaning ....I'm sorry brother we can't agree on that one , but I appreciate your time and thought and kind spirit always God bless

    see this is johns baptism and what it's for

    "John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins."


    this is before Jesus even began preaching , his name had not been declared by the resurrection or his miracles , his preaching ect....johns water baptism doesn't end or change , the difference is after Jesus rose from the dead, his commission to the disciples and apostles is this

    And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
    **Matthew‬ *28:18-20‬ *KJV‬‬


    This is water baptism and its purpose and meaning and importance after Jesus is taken up and sends the Holy Ghost as he promised

    Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

    Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”

    there's no scripture that says " you received the Holy Ghost , water baptism isn't necessary or unimportant , " nothing to say " it's a simple ritual" but rather the importance is evident . Water and spirit ....Jesus said and here's Peter saying be baptized for the remission of sins , and you'll receive the Holy Spirit . Water and spirit .

    the order is unimportant but look again the opposite order

    While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

    And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.


    again this time they receive the holy spiritual when they believe the gospel , and the first thing Peter does is command baptism of water ....for the remission of sin. Must be born of water and spirit ....must be baptized in water and spirit . There's nothing in scripture that suggests anything else. Not even a scripture which says " baptism isn't necessary, or baptism is not a foundational doctrine ...actually there's scripture that says its foundational doctrine which I've already shown.

    the issue that causes many different versions of what things like baptism mean , why people wonder hmm what's baptism all about ? Is because no one will simply just learn what the bible says a subject means . If one wishes to know what baptism means in depth it's taught throughout scripture plainly ....there's no reason for us to hear a commandment ofmjesus such as baptism and then invent reasons why it's not just what it is . what even is the root of not wanting to get baptized in water ? Is that too much for us to do in response for what Jesus who said to do it ...did for us? ....there was never a reason to part from the bibles teaching about things but many have

  12. #42
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    brother you have offered zero scriptures suggesting baptism is a ritual and is made less in any way . You showed some scripture I appreciate that , but none of them suggest baptism is not important , all of them actually suggest the understanding for " one must be born of water and spirit to enter into the kingdom of God "
    In post #13 in the thread "One Baptism," I answered your claim that Baptism is *not* symbolic. You claimed I provide no Scriptures, and yet here was the conversation:

    Randy: 1 Peter 3.21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.

    And no, it is *not* for remission of sin. Peter explained that the way we are saved is through what baptism "symbolizes."

    1 Peter 3.21 It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ
    Above, you claim that I provided "zero Scriptures" to prove that Baptism is "symbolic." And yet here I am again, proving it to you for the 2nd time! This is precisely what Peter says: "water symbolizes baptism."

    Either you are reading over what I've said, or you're just being obnoxious. Please revisit this point, and I will get back to any other arguments you wish to address.

  13. #43

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I am surprised that you come to this conclusion. In my first posting, posting #3, I laid out man's full salvation in four stages. In the fifth paragraph I categorically stated that Baptism is involved in THREE of these four. I then proceeded to show how. How then can you come to the conclusion that I think Baptism is not necessary? But I think I see what happened. My statement in the last paragraph of the posting you have contended with could be misleading if taken by itself and out of context. You state in your objection to brother Randyk that you love only the Word of God as it is written. So do I. So if I quote Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God", just because the Holy Spirit has left out Baptism in this verse, does it mean that Baptism isn't important. NO! It is found in other scriptures. So also my posting. I spoke of what Christians THINK is salvation - as my opening paragraph says - and then proceed to show Baptism's importance in its various mentions. You have discarded 95% of my postings to make a point about one sentence.

    honestly brother your postings are hard for me to follow they are too,intilectual. What I'm saying to you guys is simple and plain.

    scripture explains what scripture means . Paul , Peter , John were all teaching the same gospel, just different aspects of,it. But the subject matter they address in the epistles , repeated itself . Points like " baptism is for the remission of sin " from John , to,Jesus , to,jesusnsending his disciples into the earth with the same gospel , to all those who were converted after nothing changed , water baptism , is an act of faith , we do it because God said to do,it ....BUT what I'm saying is , if we want to understand what the meaning of baptism is , it's thoroughly explained in the New Testament ....that's why i mostly quote chunks of scripture regarding a topic....it's how I study. By topic .

    if I wonder " what does baptism mean?" I just study the topic of baptism , in scripture . It's not a riddle the bible is meant for us to accept and believe to,do that we just adapt or conform our thinking to scripture and what the topics clearly are taught to mean .....faith matter according to whether we believe what the bible says about something , or we try to guess at what it means


    bro , we can all totally disagree about these issues , I mean that, I have zero insult or disrespect for any brother in Christ, i feel we can all state our case without taking offense earthier way I hope. But I sort of just stick to the scripture and let my faith form that way......if others agree that's great if they add other scriptures and thoughts that's even better , if they don't agree and state thier ideas that's also welcome.....

  14. #44
    Join Date
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    honestly brother your postings are hard for me to follow they are too,intilectual. What I'm saying to you guys is simple and plain.

    scripture explains what scripture means . Paul , Peter , John were all teaching the same gospel, just different aspects of,it. But the subject matter they address in the epistles , repeated itself . Points like " baptism is for the remission of sin " from John , to,Jesus , to,jesusnsending his disciples into the earth with the same gospel , to all those who were converted after nothing changed , water baptism , is an act of faith , we do it because God said to do,it ....BUT what I'm saying is , if we want to understand what the meaning of baptism is , it's thoroughly explained in the New Testament ....that's why i mostly quote chunks of scripture regarding a topic....it's how I study. By topic .

    if I wonder " what does baptism mean?" I just study the topic of baptism , in scripture . It's not a riddle the bible is meant for us to accept and believe to,do that we just adapt or conform our thinking to scripture and what the topics clearly are taught to mean .....faith matter according to whether we believe what the bible says about something , or we try to guess at what it means


    bro , we can all totally disagree about these issues , I mean that, I have zero insult or disrespect for any brother in Christ, i feel we can all state our case without taking offense earthier way I hope. But I sort of just stick to the scripture and let my faith form that way......if others agree that's great if they add other scriptures and thoughts that's even better , if they don't agree and state thier ideas that's also welcome.....
    Amen brother. On this we can agree. We open the Bible and study every mention of our subject. It might take years, but God is gracious to those who love His Word. He reveals what He wants revealed. Go well brother.

  15. #45

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Amen brother. On this we can agree. We open the Bible and study every mention of our subject. It might take years, but God is gracious to those who love His Word. He reveals what He wants revealed. Go well brother.
    amen well said bro.

    in the end I believe a conclusion that we have a Loving Heavenly Father , who's will is that we come to repentance and life in the lord Jesus Christ and as you have well said there brother, his word has shone the way for those who will believe.

    I'm reminded of this section of peters second letter ....there's so much interesting things to learn of doctrine and details ....but also there's an overall conclusion that God has proven his will is that we be saved , and not lost, he truly sincerely deeply loves each of us through Christ ...and that is the depth of power in transforming ones life from lost to found. our battle is to not lose sight of the grace in scripture , nor lose sight of the dire warnings in scripture , and to believe and follow the wisdom in scripture , to,let it change our minds according to Gods design of knowledge.

    “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

    Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.”
    **2 Peter‬ *3:9-18‬ *KJV‬‬

    as we learn correct doctrine , both the warning and promise, it will spur us on toward repentance and obedience his way. If we believe the warnings , and the provisions he's made for salvation ...there is much value

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