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Thread: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

  1. #46

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    In post #13 in the thread "One Baptism," I answered your claim that Baptism is *not* symbolic. You claimed I provide no Scriptures, and yet here was the conversation:



    Above, you claim that I provided "zero Scriptures" to prove that Baptism is "symbolic." And yet here I am again, proving it to you for the 2nd time! This is precisely what Peter says: "water symbolizes baptism."

    Either you are reading over what I've said, or you're just being obnoxious. Please revisit this point, and I will get back to any other arguments you wish to address.


    wow it's not for remission of sin? Why does it repeatedly say baptism is for the remission of sin? This is what I mean with you bro , you cannot ever admit something you didn't know , even when someone shows you plainly

    “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
    **Acts‬ *2:38‬ *KJV‬‬

    ....that's the apostle Peter just after receiving the Holy Ghost saying baptism is for the remission of sins....


    " no baptism is not for the remission of sins , I know better" <<<< that's you .


    I've tried hard to explain to you lol brother when you come to a place where what you thought was correct , is thoroughly refuted .....it's not an offense to you to just say ...okay baptism is for the remission of sin...the above verse is super clear , but I've poured several in front of you saying the same thing...



    bro if you search different versions and then want to argue of words I'm not your guy here's the proper context for what you claim proves baptism is a mere ritual or symbol this is speaking of Jesus by the spirit , going to preach to those from Noah's time held in death.

    “Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


    The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us
    (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:”
    **1 Peter‬ *3:20-21‬ *KJV‬‬

    That in no way says baptism is symbolic , unimportant , or a ritual sorry ...

  2. #47

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    In post #13 in the thread "One Baptism," I answered your claim that Baptism is *not* symbolic. You claimed I provide no Scriptures, and yet here was the conversation:



    Above, you claim that I provided "zero Scriptures" to prove that Baptism is "symbolic." And yet here I am again, proving it to you for the 2nd time! This is precisely what Peter says: "water symbolizes baptism."

    Either you are reading over what I've said, or you're just being obnoxious. Please revisit this point, and I will get back to any other arguments you wish to address.
    look at the context that's not what Peter is saying at all in any way .


    “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing,


    wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.”
    **1 Peter‬ *3:18-22‬ *KJV‬‬

    what's being said is baptism saves us because it baptized us into his death for sin , and resurrection unto life. your sort of arguing different aspects of things than what I'm saying bro.

    baptism is an act of faith because we believe. It's not a complex argument lol. We hear the gospel and believe it , if we're hearing proper doctrine the first thing will be " I need to get baptized asap' if one sticks to biblical views , there's no other doctrine.


    what is your point really ? Why even argue that something Jesus aid to do ...isn't important ? It obviously is , it occurs repeatedly as I've shown you ....and that's not even all of the scripture about baptism ...was sort of trying to get you to open your thinking to what all those scriptures actually say...take my words out if you wish and just study all the scripture I offered you regarding baptism .....but do,it as if you don't know everything already and I bet you may see my point a bit better. Again


    Jesus died for the remission of sins

    “For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
    **Matthew‬ *26:28‬ *KJV‬‬

    Jesus said concerning salvation

    “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
    **Mark‬ *16:15-16‬ *KJV‬‬

    We know he said to be baptized pertaining to salvation .

    we know he died to remit sins ....

    when we act in faith believing the gospel and are baptized , we learn from Paul the process of how baptism is for the remittance of sins ..Because to be baptized , is to be baptized into the body of Christ who died to propitiate for our sins. We're baptized into his death and burial as we are taken beneath the water. That's addressed here

    “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

    That regards water baptism into his death, but another aspect of baptism is were raised up from after were buried beneath the water...


    that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:”
    **Romans‬ *6:3-4, 6-8‬ *KJV‬‬

    you saying " it's symbolic " a ritual " Paul's saying the act of baptism includes us into the death of Christ .....BECAUSE his death remits sin....it's the reason we are baptized brother ....there's no doctrine in the bible where it's any different , baptism is important doctrine a basic . We shouldn't even be debating this honestly ...

    the o.p. Was only meant tomshare scripture regarding baptism hoping someone may gather some helpful information , and also to share a few thoughts of my own . It wasn't to debate " whether baptism is rewuired for salvation" Jesus saves not me , no one can say who's saved or not until he comes ....I'm just here to again , discuss what the bible says in scripture and hoping to find others interested in discussing and sharing those things .

  3. #48
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    wow it's not for remission of sin? Why does it repeatedly say baptism is for the remission of sin? This is what I mean with you bro , you cannot ever admit something you didn't know , even when someone shows you plainly

    “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
    **Acts‬ *2:38‬ *KJV‬‬

    ....that's the apostle Peter just after receiving the Holy Ghost saying baptism is for the remission of sins....

    " no baptism is not for the remission of sins , I know better" <<<< that's you .

    I've tried hard to explain to you lol brother when you come to a place where what you thought was correct , is thoroughly refuted .....it's not an offense to you to just say ...okay baptism is for the remission of sin...the above verse is super clear , but I've poured several in front of you saying the same thing...
    It's not just me, brother--a whole bunch of people would agree with me on the issue of "baptismal regeneration." Although that belief has a long history in the church, more modern Protestant movements would outright disagree with it. I personally believe that the term has to be explained in the light of Protestant faith. And I believe the more modern Protestant movements express it best by simply downplaying or redefining baptismal regeneration.

    I believe the problem is a basic confusion between an external act, ie baptism, and the commitment of faith it represents. It is the commitment of the Christian that brings salvation. And salvation precedes baptism.

    When the Scriptures say "baptism now saves you," it is talking about what the external act symbolizes, and not the external act itself. As I said, the Scriptures say:

    1 Peter 3.21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.

    What is the "baptism that now saves you?" It is not the external act of water baptism that saves, but rather, the thing it symbolizes, which is the removal of spiritual pollution.

    The Scriptures say that Noah's Flood symbolizes a "baptism that now saves you." The baptism that saves is only externally represented in the water, because water cannot cleanse from sin.

    Thus, water baptism is itself a symbol of an internal cleansing, taking place in the conscience when men commit to Christ. Clearly, this commitment precedes baptism, with baptism being the response by the new convert, wanting to make a public declaration and partake in an initiation rite. Jesus commissioned it to certify, publicly, the commitment made beforehand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    bro if you search different versions and then want to argue of words I'm not your guy here's the proper context for what you claim proves baptism is a mere ritual or symbol this is speaking of Jesus by the spirit , going to preach to those from Noah's time held in death.

    “Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us
    (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:”
    **1 Peter‬ *3:20-21‬ *KJV‬‬

    That in no way says baptism is symbolic , unimportant , or a ritual sorry ...
    Baptism is an external act representing an inward work. Noah's Flood represented the destruction of sin in an entire civilization. Water Baptism symbolizes the destruction of sin in the life of the believer. Thus, both Noah's Flood and Water Baptism symbolize the removal of sin in the life of the Christian.

    But this takes place not by water, but only by the faith of the confessor. The emphasis definitely should not be placed on the act of water baptism itself! The emphasis is completely on the faith of the Christian who places his trust in Christ, and in his redeeming power.

    Luther and Protestantism would agree with me, though they utilize the language of baptismal regeneration. Still Luther utilized the sacraments in a symbolic sense, as external rites representing inwards realities exercised only through faith.

    Luther preserved 2 important rituals, Communion and Baptism, which he transferred over to Lutheranism from Catholicism. He did so out of deference to what Christ said in the Great Commission, and out of deference to Scriptural references. But he never flinched from his view that Faith was the priority, and not on external rites of Communion and Baptism, which were only expressions of faith in the Christian.

    Although it may appear as if Luther added these sacraments to his equation of "Faith Alone," he did not. He always required "Faith Alone" as the basis for salvation, with Baptism being the outward expression of faith for salvation. So it is a bit misleading to say the Protestants believed in "baptismal regeneration" when in reality for them Baptism was a vehicle for faith to express salvation that had already taken place.

  4. #49

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    It's not just me, brother--a whole bunch of people would agree with me on the issue of "baptismal regeneration." Although that belief has a long history in the church, more modern Protestant movements would outright disagree with it. I personally believe that the term has to be explained in the light of Protestant faith. And I believe the more modern Protestant movements express it best by simply downplaying or redefining baptismal regeneration.

    I believe the problem is a basic confusion between an external act, ie baptism, and the commitment of faith it represents. It is the commitment of the Christian that brings salvation. And salvation precedes baptism.

    When the Scriptures say "baptism now saves you," it is talking about what the external act symbolizes, and not the external act itself. As I said, the Scriptures say:

    1 Peter 3.21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.

    What is the "baptism that now saves you?" It is not the external act of water baptism that saves, but rather, the thing it symbolizes, which is the removal of spiritual pollution.

    The Scriptures say that Noah's Flood symbolizes a "baptism that now saves you." The baptism that saves is only externally represented in the water, because water cannot cleanse from sin.

    Thus, water baptism is itself a symbol of an internal cleansing, taking place in the conscience when men commit to Christ. Clearly, this commitment precedes baptism, with baptism being the response by the new convert, wanting to make a public declaration and partake in an initiation rite. Jesus commissioned it to certify, publicly, the commitment made beforehand.



    Baptism is an external act representing an inward work. Noah's Flood represented the destruction of sin in an entire civilization. Water Baptism symbolizes the destruction of sin in the life of the believer. Thus, both Noah's Flood and Water Baptism symbolize the removal of sin in the life of the Christian.

    But this takes place not by water, but only by the faith of the confessor. The emphasis definitely should not be placed on the act of water baptism itself! The emphasis is completely on the faith of the Christian who places his trust in Christ, and in his redeeming power.

    Luther and Protestantism would agree with me, though they utilize the language of baptismal regeneration. Still Luther utilized the sacraments in a symbolic sense, as external rites representing inwards realities exercised only through faith.

    Luther preserved 2 important rituals, Communion and Baptism, which he transferred over to Lutheranism from Catholicism. He did so out of deference to what Christ said in the Great Commission, and out of deference to Scriptural references. But he never flinched from his view that Faith was the priority, and not on external rites of Communion and Baptism, which were only expressions of faith in the Christian.

    Although it may appear as if Luther added these sacraments to his equation of "Faith Alone," he did not. He always required "Faith Alone" as the basis for salvation, with Baptism being the outward expression of faith for salvation. So it is a bit misleading to say the Protestants believed in "baptismal regeneration" when in reality for them Baptism was a vehicle for faith to express salvation that had already taken place.

    again brother , it wouldn't matter to me if 9 of ten people agreed with your ideas , I'm a believer in what the bible teaches about a subject like baptism , nothing that strays from the understanding offered in scripture , is of interest to me , I purposely avoid speculations that part from what's clearly established plainly in scripture. Faith comes from Gods word , no where else.

    I believe as I think you probably understand by now ,my hen Jesus sent the gospel forth and said " go teach the world the same things I taught you whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved and whoever doesn't believe will be damned "


    at this point anything that changes or parts from Jesus words , from the explainations , the understanding he himself gave and passed to the apostles , to carry on preaching the same gospel , same baptism , same doctrine that Jesus taught Israel , was sent out to all the world....

    so for me to then go figure out if what Jesus said in scripture is the right things to believe , seems foolish to me , scripture is the correct doctrine bro, it's hard for me to discuss with you sometimes , you seem " new age" and I'm 100 percent old school , looking back to what the doctrine was before the many teachers with itching ears , and teachers of fables and wives tales corrupted things......if you look at revelation, the church that doesn't have the spot of Gods children , are following a false gospel they don't actually know thier following the antichrist, he appears as Christ , only .....what he says is. It like Christ .


    "appeared as a lamb, but spoke as a dragon" false doctrine was how Satan led man astray to begin with .....God said " you will surely die if you eat the fruit" the truth .

    Satan said " you will not surely die" the first false doctrine that parts from what God has clearly said .


    it's never changed , the only power Satan has over man , is to get them away from what Jesus Christ has said concerning eternal,life and salvation. But he's subtle you see, he doesn't say " let's all not believe Jesus and go astray" " in stead he takes what God said , re explains it and twists it to his own mind, and offers it back to the people....

    for instance Jesus said " repent for the kingdom of God has come near" .....he said " if you do. Ot relent you too will all perish like the other sinners before you" he's said " not everyone who calls me lord lord will be saved , but those who do the will of my father who is in heaven ...."


    satans voice comes afterwards seeking to steal this knowledge away , with subtlty " Jesus loves you so much , do you really think if you don't repent ....he's going to send you to hell? Of course not Jesus died for your sins, repentance isn't about you , it's about Israel ....repentance really isn't even a Christian doctrine ...we have grace , so don't think " unless you repent you too will all perish " Jesus is better than that"


    see it sounds logical , sounds loving and certainly good and true ....but to accept it then requires a person to dos believe Jesus who said " unless you repent , you too will all perish " then said " go teach the world the same things I taught you all"


    we can overthink things easily , but if we believe what's taught by the lord , we'll have those things in us when we need them for guidance. Satans only weapon is false information, is to deflect the truth of scripture with different " interpretations" and ideas ,......there's many ways to get one to believe the wrong things .....but Gid is good , he spoke and purposed man to write it down for all generations , preserving it for us to know and believe for all time....he has caused man to print it in hundreds of languages , it is by far the most published and distributed book on earth , there's a biblical account of Gods true word in almost every community on earth . ......


    there's a reason Gods word has been so carefully guarded and widely distributed ....so we don't have to get our relationship with God from another person , we don't have to rely on someone telling us what God said, we have what God said through Jesus Christ written down in the four accounts of the gospel , and we have many eyewitness accounts , and those commissioned to explain and teach the gospel who came after ....it's all written down so we don't get led astray who believe .....by someone claiming to know better hints than what's written .


    the bible actually says plainly " do not go beyond what is written , but seek to live up to those things" ....the bible actually says " anyone who runs ahead and does. It abide in the doctrine of Jesus Christ , does not have God . " it's all about what God said , not what we say bro...

  5. #50
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    again brother , it wouldn't matter to me if 9 of ten people agreed with your ideas , I'm a believer in what the bible teaches about a subject like baptism , nothing that strays from the understanding offered in scripture , is of interest to me , I purposely avoid speculations that part from what's clearly established plainly in scripture. Faith comes from Gods word , no where else.
    And I'm not interested in using Scriptures unless you actually interpret them properly. Of course, if you want to sincerely discuss differences of opinion, I'm open to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    I believe as I think you probably understand by now ,my hen Jesus sent the gospel forth and said " go teach the world the same things I taught you whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved and whoever doesn't believe will be damned "
    You don't seem to realize, but "and is baptized" is an add on to "whoever believes shall be saved?" In other words, a person is saved strictly by faith in Christ. If he happens to get baptized, then it is true: "whoever believes *and is baptized* shall be saved!

    Baptism was not part of the formula for salvation. Rather, it was part of what set apart those who had believed for salvation. They typically got saved first, and then got baptized. You regularly ignore this point. If you are sincere in your beliefs, and claim it to be objectively verifiable in the Scriptures, why don't you address this point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    at this point anything that changes or parts from Jesus words , from the explainations , the understanding he himself gave and passed to the apostles , to carry on preaching the same gospel , same baptism , same doctrine that Jesus taught Israel , was sent out to all the world....

    so for me to then go figure out if what Jesus said in scripture is the right things to believe , seems foolish to me , scripture is the correct doctrine bro, it's hard for me to discuss with you sometimes , you seem " new age" and I'm 100 percent old school , looking back to what the doctrine was before the many teachers with itching ears , and teachers of fables and wives tales corrupted things......if you look at revelation, the church that doesn't have the spot of Gods children , are following a false gospel they don't actually know thier following the antichrist, he appears as Christ , only .....what he says is. It like Christ .
    You seem to have very little experience with Scriptural interpretation. The face value of Scriptural reading is often wrong. What you're really advocating for is a majority opinion by those who present simply the face value of what is read. And then you deny any need to dig any deeper and just accuse those who do of "tampering with the Scriptures?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    "appeared as a lamb, but spoke as a dragon" false doctrine was how Satan led man astray to begin with .....God said " you will surely die if you eat the fruit" the truth .

    Satan said " you will not surely die" the first false doctrine that parts from what God has clearly said .

    it's never changed , the only power Satan has over man , is to get them away from what Jesus Christ has said concerning eternal,life and salvation. But he's subtle you see, he doesn't say " let's all not believe Jesus and go astray" " in stead he takes what God said , re explains it and twists it to his own mind, and offers it back to the people....

    for instance Jesus said " repent for the kingdom of God has come near" .....he said " if you do. Ot relent you too will all perish like the other sinners before you" he's said " not everyone who calls me lord lord will be saved , but those who do the will of my father who is in heaven ...."

    satans voice comes afterwards seeking to steal this knowledge away , with subtlty " Jesus loves you so much , do you really think if you don't repent ....he's going to send you to hell? Of course not Jesus died for your sins, repentance isn't about you , it's about Israel ....repentance really isn't even a Christian doctrine ...we have grace , so don't think " unless you repent you too will all perish " Jesus is better than that"

    see it sounds logical , sounds loving and certainly good and true ....but to accept it then requires a person to dos believe Jesus who said " unless you repent , you too will all perish " then said " go teach the world the same things I taught you all"

    we can overthink things easily , but if we believe what's taught by the lord , we'll have those things in us when we need them for guidance. Satans only weapon is false information, is to deflect the truth of scripture with different " interpretations" and ideas ,......there's many ways to get one to believe the wrong things .....but Gid is good , he spoke and purposed man to write it down for all generations , preserving it for us to know and believe for all time....he has caused man to print it in hundreds of languages , it is by far the most published and distributed book on earth , there's a biblical account of Gods true word in almost every community on earth . ......

    there's a reason Gods word has been so carefully guarded and widely distributed ....so we don't have to get our relationship with God from another person , we don't have to rely on someone telling us what God said, we have what God said through Jesus Christ written down in the four accounts of the gospel , and we have many eyewitness accounts , and those commissioned to explain and teach the gospel who came after ....it's all written down so we don't get led astray who believe .....by someone claiming to know better hints than what's written .
    Private interpretation, and refusing to benefit from the teachers God has given you, can lead to serious problems. Your personal relationship with the Lord requires no intermediaries. But understanding the Bible often requires instructors. God planned it that way. If you want to teach yourself, don't blame me for all the problems you will run into. I've run into plenty of them myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower
    the bible actually says plainly " do not go beyond what is written , but seek to live up to those things" ....the bible actually says " anyone who runs ahead and does. It abide in the doctrine of Jesus Christ , does not have God . " it's all about what God said , not what we say bro...
    So, the moral of the story is: anybody who says anything you don't like, you can just chuck it?

    Proverbs 6.23 For this command is a lamp, this teaching is a light, and correction and instruction are the way to life.

  6. #51

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    I was reading the responsive conversations in the forum and there is a lot of great discussion about this subject.

    Have you ever thought of baptism as something like dipping or submerging or engulfing a piece of bread into a bowl of liquid dipping.

    Joh 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it.

    Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    This Greek word " Dipped " is also another form derivative or function of the word - baptizō / baptize.

    This Greek word is - βάπτω - baptō - bap'-to or embaptō - this word means - To cover something wholly with a fluid, to - dip. Used as when Christ dipped his bread or when his garments are dipped in blood.

    This is the same word.

    The act of being baptized is described as a part of the believers inward act of faith and conscience inside our hearts and minds.


    As it says in - 1Pe 3:21 Which that and our figure / example now, [ compared to the eight souls saved by water ] saving baptism is not the flesh to put away filth but the conscience of a good answer to God by the resurrection Jesus Christ.

    This is good discussion and the bible has a few things to tell us. That getting baptized is a part or a step in receiving Christ and his salvation, but it is not something that literally causes our sins to be removed nor something that cleans our flesh from sin and evil. Baptism is about the conscience awareness of our faith, that we do the act of being baptized we are accepting Christ and his death as the atonement for sin by his death and resurrection.

    Would not this be like praying and asking forgiveness from sin or consciously making an act of confessing our sins to Christ. Our payer and the confessing of the sins do not clean our sins but we accept that we need Christ and we pray, confess and get baptized and God sees that we have accepted him by our actions and he saves us.

    is this pretty much what everyone was saying ?

  7. #52
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by ABCs Of Life View Post
    I was reading the responsive conversations in the forum and there is a lot of great discussion about this subject.

    Have you ever thought of baptism as something like dipping or submerging or engulfing a piece of bread into a bowl of liquid dipping.

    Joh 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it.

    Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    This Greek word " Dipped " is also another form derivative or function of the word - baptizō / baptize.

    This Greek word is - βάπτω - baptō - bap'-to or embaptō - this word means - To cover something wholly with a fluid, to - dip. Used as when Christ dipped his bread or when his garments are dipped in blood.

    This is the same word.

    The act of being baptized is described as a part of the believers inward act of faith and conscience inside our hearts and minds.


    As it says in - 1Pe 3:21 Which that and our figure / example now, [ compared to the eight souls saved by water ] saving baptism is not the flesh to put away filth but the conscience of a good answer to God by the resurrection Jesus Christ.

    This is good discussion and the bible has a few things to tell us. That getting baptized is a part or a step in receiving Christ and his salvation, but it is not something that literally causes our sins to be removed nor something that cleans our flesh from sin and evil. Baptism is about the conscience awareness of our faith, that we do the act of being baptized we are accepting Christ and his death as the atonement for sin by his death and resurrection.

    Would not this be like praying and asking forgiveness from sin or consciously making an act of confessing our sins to Christ. Our payer and the confessing of the sins do not clean our sins but we accept that we need Christ and we pray, confess and get baptized and God sees that we have accepted him by our actions and he saves us.

    is this pretty much what everyone was saying ?
    Well, I see your point, but not quite my point. My major point is that salvation is by *faith alone,* and does not require the ritual of water baptism. Water Baptism symbolizes the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, or being "dipped" into Christ, if you will.

    An important proof in this distinction of faith for salvation is the fact that actual salvation *precedes* Baptism. Baptism is something a *saved person* desires to do as an initiation ceremony and as a public confession. The ritual has no magic--it is just our expression before God of our intention to follow Him as Lord the rest of our lives.

    So why did Jesus call for his apostles to encourage and practice Baptism? It was the preferred method of declaring one's Christianity in a non-Christian environment, to show a complete abandonment of the old sinful life in favor of a new walk in righteousness with the Lord. Jesus wasn't saying that Baptism was a necessary step in salvation--only that going beyond the mere *claim* of following Jesus it is necessary to demonstrate a new life *publicly.* Baptism was one way to do that.

  8. #53
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by ABCs Of Life View Post
    I was reading the responsive conversations in the forum and there is a lot of great discussion about this subject.

    Have you ever thought of baptism as something like dipping or submerging or engulfing a piece of bread into a bowl of liquid dipping.

    Joh 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it.

    Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    This Greek word " Dipped " is also another form derivative or function of the word - baptizō / baptize.

    This Greek word is - βάπτω - baptō - bap'-to or embaptō - this word means - To cover something wholly with a fluid, to - dip. Used as when Christ dipped his bread or when his garments are dipped in blood.

    This is the same word.

    The act of being baptized is described as a part of the believers inward act of faith and conscience inside our hearts and minds.


    As it says in - 1Pe 3:21 Which that and our figure / example now, [ compared to the eight souls saved by water ] saving baptism is not the flesh to put away filth but the conscience of a good answer to God by the resurrection Jesus Christ.

    This is good discussion and the bible has a few things to tell us. That getting baptized is a part or a step in receiving Christ and his salvation, but it is not something that literally causes our sins to be removed nor something that cleans our flesh from sin and evil. Baptism is about the conscience awareness of our faith, that we do the act of being baptized we are accepting Christ and his death as the atonement for sin by his death and resurrection.

    Would not this be like praying and asking forgiveness from sin or consciously making an act of confessing our sins to Christ. Our payer and the confessing of the sins do not clean our sins but we accept that we need Christ and we pray, confess and get baptized and God sees that we have accepted him by our actions and he saves us.

    is this pretty much what everyone was saying ?
    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Well, I see your point, but not quite my point. My major point is that salvation is by *faith alone,* and does not require the ritual of water baptism. Water Baptism symbolizes the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, or being "dipped" into Christ, if you will.

    An important proof in this distinction of faith for salvation is the fact that actual salvation *precedes* Baptism. Baptism is something a *saved person* desires to do as an initiation ceremony and as a public confession. The ritual has no magic--it is just our expression before God of our intention to follow Him as Lord the rest of our lives.

    So why did Jesus call for his apostles to encourage and practice Baptism? It was the preferred method of declaring one's Christianity in a non-Christian environment, to show a complete abandonment of the old sinful life in favor of a new walk in righteousness with the Lord. Jesus wasn't saying that Baptism was a necessary step in salvation--only that going beyond the mere *claim* of following Jesus it is necessary to demonstrate a new life *publicly.* Baptism was one way to do that.
    Now we are going somewhere. I was wondering when someone would spot the anomaly. Both John's baptism and the Baptism in Jesus' Name declare it "for the remission of sins". But that should start a fusillade of objection. What then of;
    Matthew 26:28; "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."
    Romans 3:25; "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God."
    Hebrews 9:22; "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

    Since we cannot pit one scripture against another, we have to find out why it is plainly stated that Baptism was for the remission of sins (Matthew 26:28 Mark 1:4 Luke 3:3 Acts 2:38) when only blood can do this. And then to complete the dilemma, what about Acts 10:43? "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." The dilemma is that the shedding of blood is something OUTSIDE the realm of the men. It is done whether he likes it or not. But Baptism is something that men agree to. So it is WITHIN them. And faith in Jesus is something that requires God to give the faith (something from outside) and men to act on it (something from within). The answer I believe lies in the word "remission".

    The word "remission" in the Greek is "Aphesis" which has its root in "Aphiemi", the meaning being "to make free of" or "to give liberty". In addition to my posts #3 and #18, which set forth some of the reasons for Immersion, I would like to propose that the "SETTING FREE" of a man from his sins is a house with a foundation, walls and roof.
    1. The Foundation for a righteous God is that the sins must definitely be paid for. This would entail the shedding of the sinner's blood OR the blood of a Substitute. Thus, before anything is done towards "liberty" from retribution, a man has to die by bloodshed.
    2. The Walls of the of the House of Salvation, which, like the posts of the Tabernacle, must stand on (i) Brass (Outer Court - Ex.27:10) - the judgment of sins on Christ, and (ii) Silver (The Tent - Ex.36:24) - the atonement of a Man sold for 30 pieces of Silver, but be of Acacia wood, a depiction of humanity, or men. Men must apply the Brass and Silver. Ayn other material is ineffective and would be disobedience.
    3. The Roof, that which shelters the whole structure and makes it a House, is faith. It is faith that applies the blood, and it is faith, or the belief that we are useless for anything in regards to (i) salvation, and (ii) the Kingdom that drives us to obey the command to be immersed. Faith is the substance and hope of things UNSEEN (Heb.11:1). Happy is the Christian who OBEYS God's Words because, though he cannot SEE the reason for it, he BELIEVES that it is vitally important.

    1. Without the foundation - the shedding of Christ's blood - NOTHING stands. To have LIBERTY from retribution it needs shedding of blood.
    2. WITH the foundation of the shedding of Christ's blood, the aspirant Christian allows himself to be IMMERSED and is so entered into the death of Christ where sins have no more power over him (Romans 6:1.7). He is then at LIBERTY to sin no more. But the IMMERSION is based on the blood. Without the shedding of blood no IMMERSION can give any kind of LIBERTY
    3. WITH the foundation of the shedding of Christ's blood, the Christian receives LIBERTY BY THE VEHICLE OF FAITH. Christ's death is a fact. Immersion is required for future liberty. But all of this will NOT be available if there is no faith.

    My posting #18 alludes to this. Sins, or trespasses can only put put away from a sinner by the shedding of blood. But the God requires that man to JOURNEY with Him to an inheritance - an inheritance which sin would defile. On this journey the Christian must "pass through the flood" for liberty of that which held him before. And all this is useless of faith is not exercised. As an example I propose Israel.
    1. IF Israel do not kill the Lamb and splash its blood OUTSIDE the doors of their dwellings, they die with the Egyptians. They worshiped idols IN Egypt. The Lamb is the foundation and without it all else becomes moot.
    2. But between them and Canaan are TWO FLOODS - (i) the Red Sea and (ii) Jordan in flood. If they do not pass through these floods they can avoid the angel of death but NOT INHERIT Canaan. The FLOODS save them from the pressure of the Egyptians to serve idols. But they succumb to worship idols IN the Wilderness. The were at LIBERTY to serve God but didn't so they cannot inherit Canaan. They fall, not in Egypt, but in the Wilderness. The Floods freed them from Egyptian power but they DECIDE themselves to worship idols.
    3. BUT with this grand FREEDOM at hand, what would it have served Israel if the had not BELIEVED Moses? They had to do the unheard-of thing. Kill and eat a Lamb per family, and splash its blood on doorposts. Moses had to BELIEVE God to smack his rod into the waters of the Red Sea. And the Priests had to stick their feet into the flooding Jordan BY FAITH before it parted for them.

    1. The BASIS of LIBERTY is Christ's death.
    2. The APPLICATION of LIBERTY is OBEDIENCE
    3. The VEHICLE to both LIBERTY from retribution and LIBERTY from slavery in another realm is FAITH

  9. #54
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Now we are going somewhere. I was wondering when someone would spot the anomaly. Both John's baptism and the Baptism in Jesus' Name declare it "for the remission of sins". But that should start a fusillade of objection. What then of;
    Matthew 26:28; "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."
    Romans 3:25; "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God."
    Hebrews 9:22; "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

    Since we cannot pit one scripture against another, we have to find out why it is plainly stated that Baptism was for the remission of sins (Matthew 26:28 Mark 1:4 Luke 3:3 Acts 2:38) when only blood can do this. And then to complete the dilemma, what about Acts 10:43? "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." The dilemma is that the shedding of blood is something OUTSIDE the realm of the men. It is done whether he likes it or not. But Baptism is something that men agree to. So it is WITHIN them. And faith in Jesus is something that requires God to give the faith (something from outside) and men to act on it (something from within). The answer I believe lies in the word "remission".

    The word "remission" in the Greek is "Aphesis" which has its root in "Aphiemi", the meaning being "to make free of" or "to give liberty". In addition to my posts #3 and #18, which set forth some of the reasons for Immersion, I would like to propose that the "SETTING FREE" of a man from his sins is a house with a foundation, walls and roof.
    1. The Foundation for a righteous God is that the sins must definitely be paid for. This would entail the shedding of the sinner's blood OR the blood of a Substitute. Thus, before anything is done towards "liberty" from retribution, a man has to die by bloodshed.
    2. The Walls of the of the House of Salvation, which, like the posts of the Tabernacle, must stand on (i) Brass (Outer Court - Ex.27:10) - the judgment of sins on Christ, and (ii) Silver (The Tent - Ex.36:24) - the atonement of a Man sold for 30 pieces of Silver, but be of Acacia wood, a depiction of humanity, or men. Men must apply the Brass and Silver. Ayn other material is ineffective and would be disobedience.
    3. The Roof, that which shelters the whole structure and makes it a House, is faith. It is faith that applies the blood, and it is faith, or the belief that we are useless for anything in regards to (i) salvation, and (ii) the Kingdom that drives us to obey the command to be immersed. Faith is the substance and hope of things UNSEEN (Heb.11:1). Happy is the Christian who OBEYS God's Words because, though he cannot SEE the reason for it, he BELIEVES that it is vitally important.

    1. Without the foundation - the shedding of Christ's blood - NOTHING stands. To have LIBERTY from retribution it needs shedding of blood.
    2. WITH the foundation of the shedding of Christ's blood, the aspirant Christian allows himself to be IMMERSED and is so entered into the death of Christ where sins have no more power over him (Romans 6:1.7). He is then at LIBERTY to sin no more. But the IMMERSION is based on the blood. Without the shedding of blood no IMMERSION can give any kind of LIBERTY
    3. WITH the foundation of the shedding of Christ's blood, the Christian receives LIBERTY BY THE VEHICLE OF FAITH. Christ's death is a fact. Immersion is required for future liberty. But all of this will NOT be available if there is no faith.

    My posting #18 alludes to this. Sins, or trespasses can only put put away from a sinner by the shedding of blood. But the God requires that man to JOURNEY with Him to an inheritance - an inheritance which sin would defile. On this journey the Christian must "pass through the flood" for liberty of that which held him before. And all this is useless of faith is not exercised. As an example I propose Israel.
    1. IF Israel do not kill the Lamb and splash its blood OUTSIDE the doors of their dwellings, they die with the Egyptians. They worshiped idols IN Egypt. The Lamb is the foundation and without it all else becomes moot.
    2. But between them and Canaan are TWO FLOODS - (i) the Red Sea and (ii) Jordan in flood. If they do not pass through these floods they can avoid the angel of death but NOT INHERIT Canaan. The FLOODS save them from the pressure of the Egyptians to serve idols. But they succumb to worship idols IN the Wilderness. The were at LIBERTY to serve God but didn't so they cannot inherit Canaan. They fall, not in Egypt, but in the Wilderness. The Floods freed them from Egyptian power but they DECIDE themselves to worship idols.
    3. BUT with this grand FREEDOM at hand, what would it have served Israel if the had not BELIEVED Moses? They had to do the unheard-of thing. Kill and eat a Lamb per family, and splash its blood on doorposts. Moses had to BELIEVE God to smack his rod into the waters of the Red Sea. And the Priests had to stick their feet into the flooding Jordan BY FAITH before it parted for them.

    1. The BASIS of LIBERTY is Christ's death.
    2. The APPLICATION of LIBERTY is OBEDIENCE
    3. The VEHICLE to both LIBERTY from retribution and LIBERTY from slavery in another realm is FAITH
    Let me see if I can reduce your formulation...
    Christ comes in from outside, from God, to provide the blood for forgiveness.
    Man takes hold of that reality, liberating himself from the tyranny of sin and judgment, choosing also to go on in obedience.
    Obedience perseveres through the wilderness of trial until true freedom is obtained in the inheritance, which is what Baptism represents.
    This is indicated in the foundation of the blood of redemption, in the walls of silver and brass, representing redemption from judgment, and in the ceiling of faith's covering.

    It's a pretty cool formulation, and pretty biblical. I like it! I trust I got it right?

    But on the issue of Baptism, whether it is a necessary act of obedience or a purely traditional form of proving repentance by ritual, I would have to side with the latter. It is not necessary, or it would actually be part of salvation itself. And since salvation is purely a product of faith, the only necessity is in taking hold of Christ to produce the true virtue of repentance, which consists of actually putting on Christ in speech and in deeds.

    He who believes will be saved, by producing works of repentance.
    He who believes and is baptized, which is the representation of true repentance, will be saved.

    It is not the Baptism that saves, but rather, the thing that it represents that saves. It represents faith in Christ, which translates into an abandonment of the old life in favor of the new life.

    Presenting Baptism, thus, as a cleansing from sin is a good representation. Baptism does not actually clean by the element of water, nor even in the act of faith in getting baptized. Rather, Baptism *symbolizes* the cleansing that has already taken place in accepting Christ, and enacts, in its symbolism, a change in lifestyle.

    It is therefore an act that follows Salvation to present a public testimony to the world outwardly of what has already taken place inwardly. Faith saves, and Baptism represents that salvation as a testimony to the world.

  10. #55
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Let me see if I can reduce your formulation...
    Christ comes in from outside, from God, to provide the blood for forgiveness.
    Man takes hold of that reality, liberating himself from the tyranny of sin and judgment, choosing also to go on in obedience.
    Obedience perseveres through the wilderness of trial until true freedom is obtained in the inheritance, which is what Baptism represents.
    This is indicated in the foundation of the blood of redemption, in the walls of silver and brass, representing redemption from judgment, and in the ceiling of faith's covering.

    It's a pretty cool formulation, and pretty biblical. I like it! I trust I got it right?

    But on the issue of Baptism, whether it is a necessary act of obedience or a purely traditional form of proving repentance by ritual, I would have to side with the latter. It is not necessary, or it would actually be part of salvation itself. And since salvation is purely a product of faith, the only necessity is in taking hold of Christ to produce the true virtue of repentance, which consists of actually putting on Christ in speech and in deeds.

    He who believes will be saved, by producing works of repentance.
    He who believes and is baptized, which is the representation of true repentance, will be saved.

    It is not the Baptism that saves, but rather, the thing that it represents that saves. It represents faith in Christ, which translates into an abandonment of the old life in favor of the new life.

    Presenting Baptism, thus, as a cleansing from sin is a good representation. Baptism does not actually clean by the element of water, nor even in the act of faith in getting baptized. Rather, Baptism *symbolizes* the cleansing that has already taken place in accepting Christ, and enacts, in its symbolism, a change in lifestyle.

    It is therefore an act that follows Salvation to present a public testimony to the world outwardly of what has already taken place inwardly. Faith saves, and Baptism represents that salvation as a testimony to the world.
    It always boils down to the definition of "salvation".
    1. If "salvation" means sins put away so that one does not end in the Lake of Fire, then Baptism has no meaning, not even your meaning of symbolically cleansing. We are cleansed by the blood of Christ in reality (1st Jn.1:7), so why is a symbol needed? You own a Ferrari. What do you need dip your head under water for every Saturday in the market place? To show that you have a Ferrari? I think not.
    2. If "salvation" means that one dies and goes to heaven, then Baptism has no meaning. Again, your definition becomes moot if this is the case.
    3. If "salvation" means avoiding the avenging angel in Egypt, then leaving Egypt in victory, then being taught obedience in a wilderness for some years and then passing through death to gain gain the Kingdom of Israel, THEN water is vitally important. If one does not pass through the Red Sea one cannot be saved. If one does not pass through the Jordan, though he be chosen and called, though he be saved by the blood of the Lamb, though he be schooled in all obedience, though he be technically fit for the Kingdom he is to inherit, if he does not pass through the waters, he fails. If he does not pass through the water everything else is valid but what he was saved for by the blood of the Lamb, though it be real, is for nothing.

    Finally, think on this. Diverse scriptures tell us that we Gentiles were not in line for the Promises to Abraham, but that now, through Christ and His Work, have become heirs. But to INHERIT, one must be circumcised. This is man's side of the Covenant made in blood. This part of the covenant has NEVER been rescinded. Circumcision is a "sign" (Rom.4:11) and it, among other things, "shows" that to gain the Land of Canaan, the pleasure of the flesh are to be denied. But since Abraham thrice shunned the world at the hand of men, the Covenant has been extended to embrace not Canaan only, but the whole world (Rom.4:13). And 1st Corinthians 15:50 says that for this INHERITANCE - the Kingdom of God that encompasses the whole world - circumcision is not enough. The whole BODY must be set aside. So for the Kingdom of Canaan, circumcision is enough. But for the Kingdom of God, a "sign" of the whole flesh being cut off is required. Colossians 2:10-12 tells us that we need an "advanced" circumcision - one that is not made with hands and one that includes the WHOLE BODY. It is Baptism in Jesus' Name.

    Now, all of a sudden, Baptism for the Believer in Christ becomes VITAL. Why? Genesis 17:14 tells us the consequences of refusing this "sign". "And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." The Christian who refuses Baptism will not go the Lake of Fire. He remains a son of God. BUT HE IS IN TOTAL DISGRACE. He did not refuse salvation. He did not refuse the blood of Christ. He did not refuse good living. BUT HE REFUSED TO ENTER COVENANT WITH GOD FOR THE EARTH. And so, at the judgment Seat of Christ, his faith in Jesus, his good living, his sonship to God are noted. BUT HIS REFUSAL TO ENTER COVENANT WITH GOD FOR THE EARTH WILL BAN HIM FROM THE KINGDOM. Our Lord Jesus was very emphatic in Matthew 7:21. "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

    It is the Father's will that we be Baptized. The man who refuses this, blatantly disregards God's words. He might cast out demons in Jesus's Name, he might do all manner of miracles, and he might be good solid Christian. BUT HE IS A REBEL. He will not be commended for all those works. He will be called one "who does iniquity". He will be cast from Christ's presence. He will be refused entry to the Kingdom as it is set up on earth. He will be a byword in front of the nations as they enjoy the Kingdom. He will be like Esau who had a birthright and who did not care about it.

    I'm sure you will agree with me, Baptism is a small thing in itself. A once-off dunking in water in Jesus' Name. It does not have to be understood. It does not have to be public. But it DECIDES the future of a Christian in the Millennial Kingdom! Now, all of a sudden, Baptism becomes crucial. Why? Because from the very mouth of our Lord and Savior, entering the Kingdom is "being saved". The disciples, who had been taught by our Lord Jesus for three years about the coming kingdom, EQUATED ENTERING THE KINGDOM TO BEING SAVED!!! Note the language in Matthew 19:23-25. "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven." His disciples, being well schooled in the kingdom, say in astonishment; "... Who then can be saved?" There is no escape. Being "saved" is not going to the Lake of Fire. Being "saved" is having eternal life and being a son of God. But a crucial part of "salvation" is entering the Millennial Kingdom of God.

    Now we can rightly understand Mark 16:16; "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." A Christian MUST be Baptized to complete his salvation, NOT in the matter of the Lake of Fire, NOT in the matter of being a son of God and having eternal life, NOT in the matter of being cleansed of sins, BUT IN THE MATTER OF ENTERING THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM. So also then is John 3:3-5 clear. A man who is born again can SEE the Kingdom. But if he is not born also out of water he cannot ENTER the Kingdom. Moses, for his WORKS, may only SEE the Kingdom, but he may not ENTER it.

  11. #56
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    It always boils down to the definition of "salvation".
    1. If "salvation" means sins put away so that one does not end in the Lake of Fire, then Baptism has no meaning, not even your meaning of symbolically cleansing. We are cleansed by the blood of Christ in reality (1st Jn.1:7), so why is a symbol needed? You own a Ferrari. What do you need dip your head under water for every Saturday in the market place? To show that you have a Ferrari? I think not.
    2. If "salvation" means that one dies and goes to heaven, then Baptism has no meaning. Again, your definition becomes moot if this is the case.
    3. If "salvation" means avoiding the avenging angel in Egypt, then leaving Egypt in victory, then being taught obedience in a wilderness for some years and then passing through death to gain gain the Kingdom of Israel, THEN water is vitally important. If one does not pass through the Red Sea one cannot be saved. If one does not pass through the Jordan, though he be chosen and called, though he be saved by the blood of the Lamb, though he be schooled in all obedience, though he be technically fit for the Kingdom he is to inherit, if he does not pass through the waters, he fails. If he does not pass through the water everything else is valid but what he was saved for by the blood of the Lamb, though it be real, is for nothing.

    Finally, think on this. Diverse scriptures tell us that we Gentiles were not in line for the Promises to Abraham, but that now, through Christ and His Work, have become heirs. But to INHERIT, one must be circumcised. This is man's side of the Covenant made in blood. This part of the covenant has NEVER been rescinded. Circumcision is a "sign" (Rom.4:11) and it, among other things, "shows" that to gain the Land of Canaan, the pleasure of the flesh are to be denied. But since Abraham thrice shunned the world at the hand of men, the Covenant has been extended to embrace not Canaan only, but the whole world (Rom.4:13). And 1st Corinthians 15:50 says that for this INHERITANCE - the Kingdom of God that encompasses the whole world - circumcision is not enough. The whole BODY must be set aside. So for the Kingdom of Canaan, circumcision is enough. But for the Kingdom of God, a "sign" of the whole flesh being cut off is required. Colossians 2:10-12 tells us that we need an "advanced" circumcision - one that is not made with hands and one that includes the WHOLE BODY. It is Baptism in Jesus' Name.

    Now, all of a sudden, Baptism for the Believer in Christ becomes VITAL. Why? Genesis 17:14 tells us the consequences of refusing this "sign". "And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." The Christian who refuses Baptism will not go the Lake of Fire. He remains a son of God. BUT HE IS IN TOTAL DISGRACE. He did not refuse salvation. He did not refuse the blood of Christ. He did not refuse good living. BUT HE REFUSED TO ENTER COVENANT WITH GOD FOR THE EARTH. And so, at the judgment Seat of Christ, his faith in Jesus, his good living, his sonship to God are noted. BUT HIS REFUSAL TO ENTER COVENANT WITH GOD FOR THE EARTH WILL BAN HIM FROM THE KINGDOM. Our Lord Jesus was very emphatic in Matthew 7:21. "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

    It is the Father's will that we be Baptized. The man who refuses this, blatantly disregards God's words. He might cast out demons in Jesus's Name, he might do all manner of miracles, and he might be good solid Christian. BUT HE IS A REBEL. He will not be commended for all those works. He will be called one "who does iniquity". He will be cast from Christ's presence. He will be refused entry to the Kingdom as it is set up on earth. He will be a byword in front of the nations as they enjoy the Kingdom. He will be like Esau who had a birthright and who did not care about it.

    I'm sure you will agree with me, Baptism is a small thing in itself. A once-off dunking in water in Jesus' Name. It does not have to be understood. It does not have to be public. But it DECIDES the future of a Christian in the Millennial Kingdom! Now, all of a sudden, Baptism becomes crucial. Why? Because from the very mouth of our Lord and Savior, entering the Kingdom is "being saved". The disciples, who had been taught by our Lord Jesus for three years about the coming kingdom, EQUATED ENTERING THE KINGDOM TO BEING SAVED!!! Note the language in Matthew 19:23-25. "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven." His disciples, being well schooled in the kingdom, say in astonishment; "... Who then can be saved?" There is no escape. Being "saved" is not going to the Lake of Fire. Being "saved" is having eternal life and being a son of God. But a crucial part of "salvation" is entering the Millennial Kingdom of God.

    Now we can rightly understand Mark 16:16; "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." A Christian MUST be Baptized to complete his salvation, NOT in the matter of the Lake of Fire, NOT in the matter of being a son of God and having eternal life, NOT in the matter of being cleansed of sins, BUT IN THE MATTER OF ENTERING THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM. So also then is John 3:3-5 clear. A man who is born again can SEE the Kingdom. But if he is not born also out of water he cannot ENTER the Kingdom. Moses, for his WORKS, may only SEE the Kingdom, but he may not ENTER it.
    I couldn't disagree with you more on this bizarre theology, and I don't see it anywhere in church history! Why are you creating a brand new theology of salvation, indicating that there is 1) a salvation that doesn't go to the Lake of Fire and yet doesn't obtain the Millennial Kingdom, and 2) a salvation that both avoids the Lake of Fire and inherits the Millennial Kingdom?

    You are also making Baptism a tenet of salvation, required to perform in order to inherit the Millennial Kingdom, just as Circumcision was a tenet of participation in God's covenant of Law with Israel. And yet, this places Baptism on a par with Circumcision as if *both* are part of a legal structure defining who qualifies to inherit "the Promised Land."

    The Promised Land for Israel is quite different from Salvation. To compare Circumcision under the Law with Christian Baptism is utterly confusing, making matters of the Law the equivalent of Christian Salvation. In reality, the Law was insufficient as a basis for Salvation. External Rituals did not save, but only symbolized Christ as the basis of our salvation.

    And Christ never required Baptism to be saved. He only indicated that those who were saved by faith, and followed up by showing this salvation in Baptism, were indeed saved for all eternity.

    In reality, Circumcision was dismissed by Paul as part of the old structure of Law, which is now terminated in favor of the international Gospel. Paul did not, however, replace it with Baptism as a new sort of litmus test for who inherits the Kingdom or not. This is your insertion!

    The symbols of Baptism in OT Israel, passing through the wilderness, was indeed necessary to inherit Canaan. Israel had to pass through the Red Sea and across the River Jordan. But these things only symbolized NT truth, which was not that men need to get baptized, but that they need to be cleansed from their sins by Christ.

    It was not the ritual of Baptism they needed, but the thing that Baptism symbolized, namely the cleansing of the soul by our immersion into Christ. Baptism was an external reality. The inner reality was what was really important--not the external act.

    You suggest that Baptism doesn't have to be understood--just conceded to, as if it was obligatory to enter into God's inheritance. I completely reject this. Baptism is supposed to be a conscious, public declaration of the intention to follow Christ from henceforth, rejecting the previous way of life, living carnally, without any reference to God's word or Spirit.

    Baptism *must be* a conscious choice to show what has already happened when we accepted Christ as the basis of our salvation. It is an internal reality, expressed outwardly in good works, and not a matter of following through with religious rituals.

  12. #57
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I couldn't disagree with you more on this bizarre theology, and I don't see it anywhere in church history! Why are you creating a brand new theology of salvation, indicating that there is 1) a salvation that doesn't go to the Lake of Fire and yet doesn't obtain the Millennial Kingdom, and 2) a salvation that both avoids the Lake of Fire and inherits the Millennial Kingdom?

    You are also making Baptism a tenet of salvation, required to perform in order to inherit the Millennial Kingdom, just as Circumcision was a tenet of participation in God's covenant of Law with Israel. And yet, this places Baptism on a par with Circumcision as if *both* are part of a legal structure defining who qualifies to inherit "the Promised Land."

    The Promised Land for Israel is quite different from Salvation. To compare Circumcision under the Law with Christian Baptism is utterly confusing, making matters of the Law the equivalent of Christian Salvation. In reality, the Law was insufficient as a basis for Salvation. External Rituals did not save, but only symbolized Christ as the basis of our salvation.

    And Christ never required Baptism to be saved. He only indicated that those who were saved by faith, and followed up by showing this salvation in Baptism, were indeed saved for all eternity.

    In reality, Circumcision was dismissed by Paul as part of the old structure of Law, which is now terminated in favor of the international Gospel. Paul did not, however, replace it with Baptism as a new sort of litmus test for who inherits the Kingdom or not. This is your insertion!

    The symbols of Baptism in OT Israel, passing through the wilderness, was indeed necessary to inherit Canaan. Israel had to pass through the Red Sea and across the River Jordan. But these things only symbolized NT truth, which was not that men need to get baptized, but that they need to be cleansed from their sins by Christ.

    It was not the ritual of Baptism they needed, but the thing that Baptism symbolized, namely the cleansing of the soul by our immersion into Christ. Baptism was an external reality. The inner reality was what was really important--not the external act.

    You suggest that Baptism doesn't have to be understood--just conceded to, as if it was obligatory to enter into God's inheritance. I completely reject this. Baptism is supposed to be a conscious, public declaration of the intention to follow Christ from henceforth, rejecting the previous way of life, living carnally, without any reference to God's word or Spirit.

    Baptism *must be* a conscious choice to show what has already happened when we accepted Christ as the basis of our salvation. It is an internal reality, expressed outwardly in good works, and not a matter of following through with religious rituals.
    Your objections are noted. What a pity you did not enter into debate on my points. 100% for emotions - 0% for sustained logical argument.

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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Your objections are noted. What a pity you did not enter into debate on my points. 100% for emotions - 0% for sustained logical argument.
    On the contrary, I argued against your points on the basis of my systematic theology, which I also believe to be the Bible's systematic theology. You have zero response to that.

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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    It always boils down to the definition of "salvation".
    1. If "salvation" means sins put away so that one does not end in the Lake of Fire, then Baptism has no meaning, not even your meaning of symbolically cleansing. We are cleansed by the blood of Christ in reality (1st Jn.1:7), so why is a symbol needed? You own a Ferrari. What do you need dip your head under water for every Saturday in the market place? To show that you have a Ferrari? I think not.
    2. If "salvation" means that one dies and goes to heaven, then Baptism has no meaning. Again, your definition becomes moot if this is the case.
    3. If "salvation" means avoiding the avenging angel in Egypt, then leaving Egypt in victory, then being taught obedience in a wilderness for some years and then passing through death to gain gain the Kingdom of Israel, THEN water is vitally important. If one does not pass through the Red Sea one cannot be saved. If one does not pass through the Jordan, though he be chosen and called, though he be saved by the blood of the Lamb, though he be schooled in all obedience, though he be technically fit for the Kingdom he is to inherit, if he does not pass through the waters, he fails. If he does not pass through the water everything else is valid but what he was saved for by the blood of the Lamb, though it be real, is for nothing.
    Here, you deny the biblical definition of Salvation, which in the context of NT Theology means that we are indeed saved from the Lake of Fire. We obtain Eternal Life, and thus avoid Eternal Punishment. To just say that the external ritual of Baptism has no value, in this respect, ignores the fact that Baptism is not intended to be part of the formula for Salvation, but rather, an act that testifies to the Salvation we have already received by faith.

    Here you have established that passage had to be made across a particular terrain feature in order to traverse a particular geography. The passage through waters does symbolize Baptism. But Baptism is in itself symbolic of our need to pass through Christ in order to be Saved. It is *not* suggesting that we need the symbolic ritual in order to be Saved!

    In other words, Israel's passing through the Red Sea and through the River Jordan did *not* symbolize the need for Christians to pass through a ritual to be Saved. Rather, it was symbolic of our need for Christ, just as Baptism itself is symbolic of our need for Christ. Passage through the waters represents our need for Christ, and not our need for Water Baptism!

    1 Cor 10.For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

    "Passing through the sea" represented Christ. "Drinking from the spiritual rock" represented partaking of Christ. You are proposing that the symbols of Christ are important, when actually the symbols represented Christ! It is Christ who is integral to Salvation--not the rituals representing him!

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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    But we do not discuss salvation per sé. We discuss what Baptism brings. You have, as I said, dismissed Baptism. Let us discuss just one of the five points I brought for Baptism - Colossians 2:11-12.
    • The context is not salvation but principalities and powers - that is, who rules
    • And then verse 10 says we are "complete IN Him". What "completeness" is required when it comes to principalities?
    • The Covenant of Promise for the Land of Canaan requires the "circumcision made WITH hands". What then is the "Circumcision made WITHOUT hands", who is it made by and with, and why?
    • What is the "Circumcision of Christ" then? Is He not TWICE circumcised? Does He not call the cutting off of His flesh "Baptism" (Matt.20:22-23)?
    • And in this same context why shall the disciples also be Baptized with this Baptism?
    • What has "circumcision made with hands" to do with salvation?

    You see brother, it is not just cut and dried. Very profound truths are hidden in these two verses. And the Christian is required to partake of them.
    Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
    11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
    12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.


    On the contrary, Paul was referring to salvation in the above passages. In v-10 he says we are complete/fulfilled in him [Christ] who is the head (above principalities and powers). Therefore through Christ, we have the power to defeat principalities and powers and rulers of darkness, etc. (Eph 6:13). Principalities are demonic spirits in the heavenly realm and we see another corroborating passage that they are under Jesus - Phil 2:9-10.

    To answer your question about the 'circumcision without hands' v-11 explain what it means - "in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ" Ergo, the circumcision of Christ made without hands is made with everyone Jew/Gentile who receives Christ and therein is redeemed from sin through the blood of Christ.

    The cornerstone of the "circumcision of Christ" described as made 'without hands' is that it is in the heart and by faith in contrast to the OT version based in the flesh. IOW, the one without hands builds character and brings one to salvation, but the other doesn't.

    In Matt 20:22-23 Jesus was referring to his death on the cross and in v-23, he answered the mother of Zebedee's children who had demanded that he grant that her two sons sit on the left and right hand of Jesus in heaven. Jesus answered her that her children and by extension, all the disciples shall receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost which he had received himself when it descended upon him in the form of a dove after John the Baptist had baptized him (Luke 3:22).

    So "ye shall indeed drink of my cup...means they (disciples) will die at the hands of unbelievers even as Jesus did. The reason the disciples are to be baptized like Jesus was to receive the enabling power for the Gospel. This was fulfilled at Pentecost.

    What circumcision without hands has to do with salvation is that it causes the Spirit of God to indwell the heart of the believer.

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