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Thread: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

  1. #1

    death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
    **Mark‬ *16:15-16‬ *KJV‬‬




    "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.


    For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;


    And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”
    **1 Corinthians‬ *15:1-4‬ *KJV‬‬




    "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


    Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.


    ....Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.


    For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.”
    **Romans‬ *6:3-4, 6-7, 10-12, 14‬ *KJV‬‬




    "buried with him in baptism wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;


    Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


    And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”
    **Colossians‬ *2:12-15‬ *KJV‬


    If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.”
    **Colossians‬ *3:1-3‬ *KJV‬‬


    one died for the sins of all...even those in the days of Noah....and water baptism baptized us into the death and resurrection of Christ , recognized by God on the principle of faith. We don't literally physically die , we do this by faith it is the purpose of the act. Of faith that is baptism.


    “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


    The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.”
    **1 Peter‬ *3:18-22‬ *KJV‬‬


    again one died for all, and by faith we have died ( justified and forgiven because death is sins price) and been born again a new creation according to faith God recognizes that the believer has died for thier sins according to the ransom paid by the redeemer. Being baptized into Christ is an act of faith you are participating in his death , burial and resurrection according to Gods word of faith. A sinner is condemned to death and separated from gods intimate presence is why this is required. To satisfy the condemnation for sin and bring us back into the presence of God...

    God bless you

  2. #2
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    I suppose you're just commenting on what baptism represents and how it should impact our lives? I agree. The Flood of Noah was the initial time when it seems God was returning the earth to its pristine state, flooded with water, and uncontaminated with human sin and the wreckage that brings. But we enact baptism to show that we understand Christ's own death for our sins--something we couldn't do for ourselves. But in doing that we've been given access to him so that like him we can live in righteousness, free from the wrath of God. Though we still live in these mortal bodies, we are washed. And though we still have sin and must die, this is just an access way to immortality and eternal fellowship with God. In sum, we all need a Christian bath. We need to now live in him, and live according to his righteousness. In doing so we can have peace in knowing that Christ removed eternal condemnation so that we may enjoy eternal fellowship with him.

  3. #3
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
    **Mark‬ *16:15-16‬ *KJV‬‬

    ....


    God bless you
    Well have you advised us to consider these scriptures. Baptism is largely dismissed although the command to do so is emphatic.

    The dilemma of Baptism as part f our salvation is largely due to another problem. It is the oversimplification of the word "salvation". One many occasions I have asked my co-debaters to define salvation. All I have received to date is vague allusions to avoiding the Lake of Fire. But for this, baptism is not mentioned. I there fore propose that the "salvation" of man is a complex and compound word. Instead of producing the opposing arguments and then countering them, I will attempt to lay down man's full salvation and let the debate go from there.

    The extent of man's problems is beautifully illustrated in the Offerings of the Law. For most Christians there is the Trespass Offering, and for a few who delve deeper, there is the Sin Offering. But ask these students to show why we have the Burnt Offering, Meal Offering, Peace Offering, Drink Offering, Wave Offering and Heave Offering - all of which Christ fulfilled, and few even attempt it. Then throw in the Day of Atonement and the scratching of the head begins. Without explaining all these, which have needed many books (some of which are still in print), I propose that man has a fourfold problem that he needs to be SAVED from. They are;
    1. He has, by birth to the line of Adam, inherited a sinful nature that leads to his inevitable physical death (Rom.5:12)
    2. He has, by this sinful nature, automatically born the fruits of it, sinned, and offended God to the uttermost (Matt.7:18; Rom.3:23)
    3. He has, by this sinful nature, permeated his whole thought, feeling and decision-making process with corruption (Romans Chapter 7)
    4. He has, by all of the above, made himself thoroughly unworthy to rule the earth for which he was made (Gen.1:26-28)

    Therefore;
    1. A man, in order to overcome death, must be "saved" from death by resurrection
    2. A man, in order to overcome and annul the effects of his lineage from Adam, must have AN - OTHER birth
    3. A man, in order to be "saved" from (i) the righteous indignation of God, and (ii) the just rewards of his impudence toward God, must have his sins put away legally
    4. A man, in order to be deemed fit for ruling in God's Kingdom, must undergo a change of DISPOSITION - that is, his thinking, feeling and deciding process must be transformed to that of Christ

    Baptism is involved in THREE of these four "salvations"
    1. For an ongoing and legal relationship with a holy God while still in the corrupted flesh, a man must be counted as dead. This is revealed in Romans 6:-1-5 and Galatians 2.20. God requires a "sign" from man that he admits his total physical corruption and counts himself as needing the death of Christ. Anon, his new and resurrection body will be given, but until then a man cannot have audience with God if he holds to his corrupted flesh
    2. For a man to serve God after having been such an enemy and offender of God, he needs his conscience cleared. This is done by "burying it" like the sinful earth was buried by water at Noah's time (1st Pet.3:20-21)
    3. For a man to inherit the earth as a co-king with Jesus and rule it, the man must enter a COVENANT - the Covenant made with Abraham. With Abraham the Covenant for the Land of Canaan required that he cut of the foreskin. But this Covenant is later enlarged (Rom.4:13) to include the whole earth. For this, the foreskin is not enough. 1sr Corinthians 15:50 tells that the WHOLE PRESENT BODY is not fit for this Kingdom and must be symbolically cut off by Total Immersion (Col.2.11-12). While circumcision remains for the Land of Canaan, Baptism (full immersion) replaces circumcision for inheriting The Earth as a co-king with Christ

    And besides these three reasons, a fourth is included and is as crucial as the the other three. The Holy Spirit is given to man for TWO REASONS;
    1. To infuse God's nature and life into the man to make him able to be in the likeness of God. The gospel of John deals with this aspect and ends with the Holy Spirit given to men INWARDLY in John 20:22
    2. To "furnish" him with POWER to build the Church from which comes the kingdom and the Bride of Christ. That is, the Christian must openly set aside his POWER and receive the POWER of the Holy Spirit. This admitting to total destitution of power is done by letting the body be IMMERSED in water as if buried in death.

    So the Lord sets forth this condition in Acts 2:38:

    "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

    Baptism is an act of admission that all of your being is INADEQUATE for God's purposes. It is to be buried and forgotten. And it is an act of OBEDIENCE - the prerequisite for entering the Kingdom of God (Matt.7:21). Thus, John 3:3 says a man who is born again can SEE the Kingdom. But if he wishes to ENTER it he must ALSO be immersed in water (Jn.3:5). Moses SAW the Kingdom of Israel from afar off, but he was refused ENTRY for not upholding God's glory.

    So also the Christian. He may repent of his sins. He may have faith in Christ. He may even love the Lord. But he must declare himself "dead" and useless for the intended purpose by full immersion in the death waters.

  4. #4
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Well have you advised us to consider these scriptures. Baptism is largely dismissed although the command to do so is emphatic.

    The dilemma of Baptism as part f our salvation is largely due to another problem. It is the oversimplification of the word "salvation". One many occasions I have asked my co-debaters to define salvation. All I have received to date is vague allusions to avoiding the Lake of Fire. But for this, baptism is not mentioned. I there fore propose that the "salvation" of man is a complex and compound word. Instead of producing the opposing arguments and then countering them, I will attempt to lay down man's full salvation and let the debate go from there.

    The extent of man's problems is beautifully illustrated in the Offerings of the Law. For most Christians there is the Trespass Offering, and for a few who delve deeper, there is the Sin Offering. But ask these students to show why we have the Burnt Offering, Meal Offering, Peace Offering, Drink Offering, Wave Offering and Heave Offering - all of which Christ fulfilled, and few even attempt it. Then throw in the Day of Atonement and the scratching of the head begins. Without explaining all these, which have needed many books (some of which are still in print), I propose that man has a fourfold problem that he needs to be SAVED from. They are;
    1. He has, by birth to the line of Adam, inherited a sinful nature that leads to his inevitable physical death (Rom.5:12)
    2. He has, by this sinful nature, automatically born the fruits of it, sinned, and offended God to the uttermost (Matt.7:18; Rom.3:23)
    3. He has, by this sinful nature, permeated his whole thought, feeling and decision-making process with corruption (Romans Chapter 7)
    4. He has, by all of the above, made himself thoroughly unworthy to rule the earth for which he was made (Gen.1:26-28)

    Therefore;
    1. A man, in order to overcome death, must be "saved" from death by resurrection
    2. A man, in order to overcome and annul the effects of his lineage from Adam, must have AN - OTHER birth
    3. A man, in order to be "saved" from (i) the righteous indignation of God, and (ii) the just rewards of his impudence toward God, must have his sins put away legally
    4. A man, in order to be deemed fit for ruling in God's Kingdom, must undergo a change of DISPOSITION - that is, his thinking, feeling and deciding process must be transformed to that of Christ

    Baptism is involved in THREE of these four "salvations"
    1. For an ongoing and legal relationship with a holy God while still in the corrupted flesh, a man must be counted as dead. This is revealed in Romans 6:-1-5 and Galatians 2.20. God requires a "sign" from man that he admits his total physical corruption and counts himself as needing the death of Christ. Anon, his new and resurrection body will be given, but until then a man cannot have audience with God if he holds to his corrupted flesh
    2. For a man to serve God after having been such an enemy and offender of God, he needs his conscience cleared. This is done by "burying it" like the sinful earth was buried by water at Noah's time (1st Pet.3:20-21)
    3. For a man to inherit the earth as a co-king with Jesus and rule it, the man must enter a COVENANT - the Covenant made with Abraham. With Abraham the Covenant for the Land of Canaan required that he cut of the foreskin. But this Covenant is later enlarged (Rom.4:13) to include the whole earth. For this, the foreskin is not enough. 1sr Corinthians 15:50 tells that the WHOLE PRESENT BODY is not fit for this Kingdom and must be symbolically cut off by Total Immersion (Col.2.11-12). While circumcision remains for the Land of Canaan, Baptism (full immersion) replaces circumcision for inheriting The Earth as a co-king with Christ

    And besides these three reasons, a fourth is included and is as crucial as the the other three. The Holy Spirit is given to man for TWO REASONS;
    1. To infuse God's nature and life into the man to make him able to be in the likeness of God. The gospel of John deals with this aspect and ends with the Holy Spirit given to men INWARDLY in John 20:22
    2. To "furnish" him with POWER to build the Church from which comes the kingdom and the Bride of Christ. That is, the Christian must openly set aside his POWER and receive the POWER of the Holy Spirit. This admitting to total destitution of power is done by letting the body be IMMERSED in water as if buried in death.

    So the Lord sets forth this condition in Acts 2:38:

    "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

    Baptism is an act of admission that all of your being is INADEQUATE for God's purposes. It is to be buried and forgotten. And it is an act of OBEDIENCE - the prerequisite for entering the Kingdom of God (Matt.7:21). Thus, John 3:3 says a man who is born again can SEE the Kingdom. But if he wishes to ENTER it he must ALSO be immersed in water (Jn.3:5). Moses SAW the Kingdom of Israel from afar off, but he was refused ENTRY for not upholding God's glory.

    So also the Christian. He may repent of his sins. He may have faith in Christ. He may even love the Lord. But he must declare himself "dead" and useless for the intended purpose by full immersion in the death waters.
    Although I find your points interesting, my own explanation of "salvation" is much simpler. We are united with Christ in a righteousness that is free from eternal condemnation. We experience a new life that is unlike the world, which is condemned.

    All the offerings you mentioned I don't find to be as esoteric as you make them out to be. We offer drink offerings, meat offerings, and the like simply because we offer up what we have to God. It is an expression of gratitude to God for the things that He has given us, as well as support for the priests. They all contribute to our expression of faith that God is willing to redeem us from the condemnation of this world.

    Baptism represents this same deliverance from the condemnation of the world. As the Flood in Noah's day destroyed the then-known world for its terrible and mass wickedness, so we acknowledge the sin in humanity, and express our wish to be cleansed of it, acknowledging that it is worthy of death.

    And so we choose to live in another way, in the righteousness of Christ, so that not only we will be ultimately saved from eternal condemnation, but we can also be accepted today, as we please him in our works.

    Circumcision was simply a reminder of all adult men in Israel that they were not to fornicate with pagan women. Baptism indicated that they were to abstain from all paganism, and to live clean lives.

    I will add this, to acknowledge the difficulty that you alluded to. Salvation is more than just Christian salvation, as the Bible uses the term. It refers to deliverance from all kinds of difficulties, including deliverance from enemies and natural disasters.

    However, as we use the term, as Christians, it refers to our new life in Christ, which pleases God and is free from eternal condemnation. It implies we will receive new immortal bodies that will live unblemished lives, producing the fruits of Christian character.

  5. #5
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Although I find your points interesting, my own explanation of "salvation" is much simpler. We are united with Christ in a righteousness that is free from eternal condemnation. We experience a new life that is unlike the world, which is condemned.

    All the offerings you mentioned I don't find to be as esoteric as you make them out to be. We offer drink offerings, meat offerings, and the like simply because we offer up what we have to God. It is an expression of gratitude to God for the things that He has given us, as well as support for the priests. They all contribute to our expression of faith that God is willing to redeem us from the condemnation of this world.

    Baptism represents this same deliverance from the condemnation of the world. As the Flood in Noah's day destroyed the then-known world for its terrible and mass wickedness, so we acknowledge the sin in humanity, and express our wish to be cleansed of it, acknowledging that it is worthy of death.

    And so we choose to live in another way, in the righteousness of Christ, so that not only we will be ultimately saved from eternal condemnation, but we can also be accepted today, as we please him in our works.

    Circumcision was simply a reminder of all adult men in Israel that they were not to fornicate with pagan women. Baptism indicated that they were to abstain from all paganism, and to live clean lives.

    I will add this, to acknowledge the difficulty that you alluded to. Salvation is more than just Christian salvation, as the Bible uses the term. It refers to deliverance from all kinds of difficulties, including deliverance from enemies and natural disasters.

    However, as we use the term, as Christians, it refers to our new life in Christ, which pleases God and is free from eternal condemnation. It implies we will receive new immortal bodies that will live unblemished lives, producing the fruits of Christian character.
    But we do not discuss salvation per sé. We discuss what Baptism brings. You have, as I said, dismissed Baptism. Let us discuss just one of the five points I brought for Baptism - Colossians 2:11-12.
    • The context is not salvation but principalities and powers - that is, who rules
    • And then verse 10 says we are "complete IN Him". What "completeness" is required when it comes to principalities?
    • The Covenant of Promise for the Land of Canaan requires the "circumcision made WITH hands". What then is the "Circumcision made WITHOUT hands", who is it made by and with, and why?
    • What is the "Circumcision of Christ" then? Is He not TWICE circumcised? Does He not call the cutting off of His flesh "Baptism" (Matt.20:22-23)?
    • And in this same context why shall the disciples also be Baptized with this Baptism?
    • What has "circumcision made with hands" to do with salvation?

    You see brother, it is not just cut and dried. Very profound truths are hidden in these two verses. And the Christian is required to partake of them.

  6. #6
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    But we do not discuss salvation per sé. We discuss what Baptism brings. You have, as I said, dismissed Baptism. Let us discuss just one of the five points I brought for Baptism - Colossians 2:11-12.
    • The context is not salvation but principalities and powers - that is, who rules
    • And then verse 10 says we are "complete IN Him". What "completeness" is required when it comes to principalities?
    • The Covenant of Promise for the Land of Canaan requires the "circumcision made WITH hands". What then is the "Circumcision made WITHOUT hands", who is it made by and with, and why?
    • What is the "Circumcision of Christ" then? Is He not TWICE circumcised? Does He not call the cutting off of His flesh "Baptism" (Matt.20:22-23)?
    • And in this same context why shall the disciples also be Baptized with this Baptism?
    • What has "circumcision made with hands" to do with salvation?

    You see brother, it is not just cut and dried. Very profound truths are hidden in these two verses. And the Christian is required to partake of them.
    Quite the contrary, I think that it's you who are failing to see how I'm applying Baptism very simply. In other words, in over-complicating it you feel it isn't being properly treated.

    But what if it is really this simple? What if Baptism is purely a simple reference back to the idea that God inundated the corrupt world of Noah's Day to destroy wickedness from the earth, and that Christians, in partaking of this ritual, admit the dangers of sin within ourselves and our need to dispose of sin in ourselves?

    As new Christians we come out of our sins and out of the sinful world to demonstrate before the world that we have chosen a different way of life, free from the contaminations of sin. We embrace the spiritual life of Christ as the means to living in this new righteousness, enabling us to avoid the judgment that God showed was the fate of human wickedness in the days of Noah.

    Baptism is a simple initiation ritual, a public proclamation of a change of direction in our lives. We embrace a new community, different from the sinful world. That's all Baptism is--a symbol of a new beginning. A new believer could never get into all the esoterics of what you are describing. Again, it over-complicates it.

    For the advanced Christian it may indeed suggest some of the things you mention. But Baptism is just a ritual designed for new believers, for repentant sinners. I was baptized as a baby, and certainly had no inkling of what repentance was, or in what a future inheritance in God was. In my teens, after indulging in a sinful lifestyle for a time, I repented and got rebaptized.

    Even then I could only see Baptism as a ritual, as a public proclamation of my repentance and conversion back to Christian ways. And at that time it was still somewhat confusing for me because as a Christian raised from birth I also over-complicated it. I had never really left Christianity--just backslid, and didn't feel that I was becoming a Christian for the 2nd time!

  7. #7

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Well have you advised us to consider these scriptures. Baptism is largely dismissed although the command to do so is emphatic.

    The dilemma of Baptism as part f our salvation is largely due to another problem. It is the oversimplification of the word "salvation". One many occasions I have asked my co-debaters to define salvation. All I have received to date is vague allusions to avoiding the Lake of Fire. But for this, baptism is not mentioned. I there fore propose that the "salvation" of man is a complex and compound word. Instead of producing the opposing arguments and then countering them, I will attempt to lay down man's full salvation and let the debate go from there.

    The extent of man's problems is beautifully illustrated in the Offerings of the Law. For most Christians there is the Trespass Offering, and for a few who delve deeper, there is the Sin Offering. But ask these students to show why we have the Burnt Offering, Meal Offering, Peace Offering, Drink Offering, Wave Offering and Heave Offering - all of which Christ fulfilled, and few even attempt it. Then throw in the Day of Atonement and the scratching of the head begins. Without explaining all these, which have needed many books (some of which are still in print), I propose that man has a fourfold problem that he needs to be SAVED from. They are;
    1. He has, by birth to the line of Adam, inherited a sinful nature that leads to his inevitable physical death (Rom.5:12)
    2. He has, by this sinful nature, automatically born the fruits of it, sinned, and offended God to the uttermost (Matt.7:18; Rom.3:23)
    3. He has, by this sinful nature, permeated his whole thought, feeling and decision-making process with corruption (Romans Chapter 7)
    4. He has, by all of the above, made himself thoroughly unworthy to rule the earth for which he was made (Gen.1:26-28)

    Therefore;
    1. A man, in order to overcome death, must be "saved" from death by resurrection
    2. A man, in order to overcome and annul the effects of his lineage from Adam, must have AN - OTHER birth
    3. A man, in order to be "saved" from (i) the righteous indignation of God, and (ii) the just rewards of his impudence toward God, must have his sins put away legally
    4. A man, in order to be deemed fit for ruling in God's Kingdom, must undergo a change of DISPOSITION - that is, his thinking, feeling and deciding process must be transformed to that of Christ

    Baptism is involved in THREE of these four "salvations"
    1. For an ongoing and legal relationship with a holy God while still in the corrupted flesh, a man must be counted as dead. This is revealed in Romans 6:-1-5 and Galatians 2.20. God requires a "sign" from man that he admits his total physical corruption and counts himself as needing the death of Christ. Anon, his new and resurrection body will be given, but until then a man cannot have audience with God if he holds to his corrupted flesh
    2. For a man to serve God after having been such an enemy and offender of God, he needs his conscience cleared. This is done by "burying it" like the sinful earth was buried by water at Noah's time (1st Pet.3:20-21)
    3. For a man to inherit the earth as a co-king with Jesus and rule it, the man must enter a COVENANT - the Covenant made with Abraham. With Abraham the Covenant for the Land of Canaan required that he cut of the foreskin. But this Covenant is later enlarged (Rom.4:13) to include the whole earth. For this, the foreskin is not enough. 1sr Corinthians 15:50 tells that the WHOLE PRESENT BODY is not fit for this Kingdom and must be symbolically cut off by Total Immersion (Col.2.11-12). While circumcision remains for the Land of Canaan, Baptism (full immersion) replaces circumcision for inheriting The Earth as a co-king with Christ

    And besides these three reasons, a fourth is included and is as crucial as the the other three. The Holy Spirit is given to man for TWO REASONS;
    1. To infuse God's nature and life into the man to make him able to be in the likeness of God. The gospel of John deals with this aspect and ends with the Holy Spirit given to men INWARDLY in John 20:22
    2. To "furnish" him with POWER to build the Church from which comes the kingdom and the Bride of Christ. That is, the Christian must openly set aside his POWER and receive the POWER of the Holy Spirit. This admitting to total destitution of power is done by letting the body be IMMERSED in water as if buried in death.

    So the Lord sets forth this condition in Acts 2:38:

    "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

    Baptism is an act of admission that all of your being is INADEQUATE for God's purposes. It is to be buried and forgotten. And it is an act of OBEDIENCE - the prerequisite for entering the Kingdom of God (Matt.7:21). Thus, John 3:3 says a man who is born again can SEE the Kingdom. But if he wishes to ENTER it he must ALSO be immersed in water (Jn.3:5). Moses SAW the Kingdom of Israel from afar off, but he was refused ENTRY for not upholding God's glory.

    So also the Christian. He may repent of his sins. He may have faith in Christ. He may even love the Lord. But he must declare himself "dead" and useless for the intended purpose by full immersion in the death waters.


    yea was just sharing some scripture pertaining to baptism and the gospel. A lot of Christians don't understand what baptism even is, what it actually means according to scripture , and that it is a command of Jesus Christ . I think your post has a lot of good information in it thanks for adding that God bless

  8. #8

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    [QUOTE=Walls;3519880]But we do not discuss salvation per sé. We discuss what Baptism brings. You have, as I said, dismissed Baptism. Let us discuss just one of the five points I brought for Baptism - Colossians 2:11-12.
    • The context is not salvation but principalities and powers - that is, who rules
    • And then verse 10 says we are "complete IN Him". What "completeness" is required when it comes to principalities?
    • The Covenant of Promise for the Land of Canaan requires the "circumcision made WITH hands". What then is the "Circumcision made WITHOUT hands", who is it made by and with, and why?
    • What is the "Circumcision of Christ" then? Is He not TWICE circumcised? Does He not call the cutting off of His flesh "Baptism" (Matt.20:22-23)?
    • And in this same context why shall the disciples also be Baptized with this Baptism?
    • What has "circumcision made with hands" to do with salvation?

    You see brother, it is not just cut and dried. Very profound truths are hidden in these two verses. And the Christian is required to partake of them.[/QUOTE

  9. #9

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I suppose you're just commenting on what baptism represents and how it should impact our lives? I agree. The Flood of Noah was the initial time when it seems God was returning the earth to its pristine state, flooded with water, and uncontaminated with human sin and the wreckage that brings. But we enact baptism to show that we understand Christ's own death for our sins--something we couldn't do for ourselves. But in doing that we've been given access to him so that like him we can live in righteousness, free from the wrath of God. Though we still live in these mortal bodies, we are washed. And though we still have sin and must die, this is just an access way to immortality and eternal fellowship with God. In sum, we all need a Christian bath. We need to now live in him, and live according to his righteousness. In doing so we can have peace in knowing that Christ removed eternal condemnation so that we may enjoy eternal fellowship with him.
    This post as often mine are bro, is just sharing scripture that's pertains to baptism and the gospel , not according to my opinion but just sharing what the scriptures say it means....


    there are two baptisms, water and spirit.

    there is baptism for the remission of sins, this is the baptism discussed in the op. But there is another baptism in Christ, there is a spiritual water that we are baptized with , it is his ministry, his words that make us clean. We are forgiven through baptism of water, this is an act of faith , an act of unifying ones self identifying with Jesus Christ as our savior. The whys and how's this applies to us , a couple examples are on the op sort of just says what it says regarding baptism , the crucifixion and resurrection.

    sin has a price demanded upon mankind, the death of the sinner is the price required for sin. When we are baptized we are baptized into the body of Christ. The body that died on the cross for our sin, and also the body which walked away from the empty tomb because of his righteousness.

    our job is to follow Jesus away from the tomb where the sinner remains. Our choice is we can sit and weep inside the tomb because we want the life behind, or we can follow Jesus out of the tomb into a new life of freedom in obedience , learning that sin is an illusion, and life is found in being who we really Are in Christ, renewing the mind brought the knowledge of Jesus Christ.


    there is baptism for the remission of sins, and there is baptism of the spirit.


    it's not my place to say who's saved or who's required to be baptized ect I believe every believer has their own relationship with God through Christ and is accountable for the measure of understanding they have.....just a guy sharing scripture and a few thoughts.


    God bless thanks for the add

  10. #10

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    But we do not discuss salvation per sé. We discuss what Baptism brings. You have, as I said, dismissed Baptism. Let us discuss just one of the five points I brought for Baptism - Colossians 2:11-12.
    • The context is not salvation but principalities and powers - that is, who rules
    • And then verse 10 says we are "complete IN Him". What "completeness" is required when it comes to principalities?
    • The Covenant of Promise for the Land of Canaan requires the "circumcision made WITH hands". What then is the "Circumcision made WITHOUT hands", who is it made by and with, and why?
    • What is the "Circumcision of Christ" then? Is He not TWICE circumcised? Does He not call the cutting off of His flesh "Baptism" (Matt.20:22-23)?
    • And in this same context why shall the disciples also be Baptized with this Baptism?
    • What has "circumcision made with hands" to do with salvation?

    You see brother, it is not just cut and dried. Very profound truths are hidden in these two verses. And the Christian is required to partake of them.

    circumcision done by Christ deals with this which is the issue of that "sinful nature " you described earlier.



    “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”
    **Mark‬ *7:21-23‬ *KJV‬‬


    We lust inside our hearts and minds ....we are led to sin through this issue within us. We hold grudges and hate inside....this leads us to sin through the issue in us, we are full of greed and love mammon inside ....so we are led to sin because of the issue in us. Our hearts our minds , our imaginations desires, thoughts....

    the circumcision of Christ is accomp,I shed through accepting and believing his word , his teachings. For instance through his command regarding looking with the lustful intent at another persons spouse , or if you are married looking at another woman with lust in our eyes and minds , Jesus says this is adultery of the heart, and teaches us the imminent danger of allowing this list to remain in our thinking. We learn in Christ that our battle is not outward, it is won and lost inwardly before I sin, I deal with the desire to sin.

    one can live all thier life wanting to kill and not actually kill anyone....this doesn't mean they aren't a murderer....it means they held back from doing what they really desired. It means they are a sinner. One can want and desire to cheat on ones wife , but never actually have relations with another woman....this doesn't mean the man isn't an adulterer....he is an adulterer at. Heart, he just resisted himself for reason of fear. But if he were free as Christians are free he would commit adultery freely....

    this is not the condition of a Christian who is baptized into Christ Jesus and the gospel. The Christians path takes him inward to first recognize the issue inside , confront and realize we can control our thoughts, our desires , we can fight against things like addiction or whatever else there is. The doctrine of Jesus Christ turns the battle field Inward ....so the guy who believes in Jesus and accepts his words...he will start realizing " when I'm lusting after my neighbors beautiful wife, I'm sinning" Jesus taught me about this, I remember what the lord said about looking with lust....it will bring conviction and eventual freedom, because it will indeed change those things through faith. Eventually one finds when we fight the lust inside the mind, sexual sin becomes another mirage tempting one to do what is contrary to our true nature in Christ Jesus ....that of the children of God

  11. Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    I believe that God teaches Christians to be immersed... Mat 28:18-20 (ESV) And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” Also 1 Peter 3:21-22 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

    However, Jesus also says in Matthew 7:1 to judge not, lest you be judged (also see Luke 6:37-38, Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; 38 give, and it will be given to you...) I believe it is not my place to judge a believer in Jesus who is kind, giving, serving, and loving, but currently does not want to get immersed in Christ's name (acts 2:38. acts 10:47-48)... God may work with him in the future. We can tell people what God says in the Bible, but the harder we judge others, the harder we will be judged by God, I believe. And likewise, the more merciful we are now, the more mercy God will show us on judgment day. Once we start with faith in Jesus we should actually desire to be doing what God wants, whether immersion, service, giving, growing closer with brethren, etc, etc...

    Thanks..

    Josh


    The eyes of the LORD are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.

  12. Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Hey, one of the moderators needs to delete that user posting about pornography. That is disgusting, someone needs to block that user.
    The eyes of the LORD are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.

  13. #13

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua1 View Post
    I believe that God teaches Christians to be immersed... Mat 28:18-20 (ESV) And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” Also 1 Peter 3:21-22 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

    However, Jesus also says in Matthew 7:1 to judge not, lest you be judged (also see Luke 6:37-38, Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; 38 give, and it will be given to you...) I believe it is not my place to judge a believer in Jesus who is kind, giving, serving, and loving, but currently does not want to get immersed in Christ's name (acts 2:38. acts 10:47-48)... God may work with him in the future. We can tell people what God says in the Bible, but the harder we judge others, the harder we will be judged by God, I believe. And likewise, the more merciful we are now, the more mercy God will show us on judgment day. Once we start with faith in Jesus we should actually desire to be doing what God wants, whether immersion, service, giving, growing closer with brethren, etc, etc...

    Thanks..

    Josh



    yes it's no ones place to judge .....that's different from sharing and discussing correct doctrine no one is being judged and you are right to have that belief .

  14. #14

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    This post as often mine are bro, is just sharing scripture that's pertains to baptism and the gospel , not according to my opinion but just sharing what the scriptures say it means....


    there are two baptisms, water and spirit.

    there is baptism for the remission of sins, this is the baptism discussed in the op. But there is another baptism in Christ, there is a spiritual water that we are baptized with , it is his ministry, his words that make us clean. We are forgiven through baptism of water, this is an act of faith , an act of unifying ones self identifying with Jesus Christ as our savior. The whys and how's this applies to us , a couple examples are on the op sort of just says what it says regarding baptism , the crucifixion and resurrection.

    sin has a price demanded upon mankind, the death of the sinner is the price required for sin. When we are baptized we are baptized into the body of Christ. The body that died on the cross for our sin, and also the body which walked away from the empty tomb because of his righteousness.

    our job is to follow Jesus away from the tomb where the sinner remains. Our choice is we can sit and weep inside the tomb because we want the life behind, or we can follow Jesus out of the tomb into a new life of freedom in obedience , learning that sin is an illusion, and life is found in being who we really Are in Christ, renewing the mind brought the knowledge of Jesus Christ.


    there is baptism for the remission of sins, and there is baptism of the spirit.


    it's not my place to say who's saved or who's required to be baptized ect I believe every believer has their own relationship with God through Christ and is accountable for the measure of understanding they have.....just a guy sharing scripture and a few thoughts.


    God bless thanks for the add

    here's some scripture regarding the two baptisms and some thoughts ,but moreso the scriptures may offer some thought to you


    John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

    ...And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. ...

    Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
    **Mark‬ *1:4, 7-9, 14-15‬ *KJV‬‬

    “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

    It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.”
    **John‬ *6:63, 68-69‬ *KJV‬‬


    ch 3
    ( John the Baptist now speaking of Jesus) ...For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
    **John‬ *3:3, 5-6, 34-36‬ *KJV‬‬

    “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
    **John‬ *5:24‬ *KJV‬‬


    he will baptize with the Holy Ghost....

    If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
    **John‬ *14:15-17, 23-26‬ *KJV‬‬

    “Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you..........But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:”
    **John‬ *15:3, 26‬ *KJV‬‬


    “But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?.....Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.”
    **John‬ *16:5, 7‬ *KJV‬‬


    “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
    **Matthew‬ *28:18-20‬ *KJV‬‬

    then ....just as Jesus had promised them ....

    “And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

    And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    ( Peter explains)

    Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

    ....This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
    **Acts‬ *2:1, 4, 22-24, 32-33, 36‬ *KJV‬‬


    Jesus had been telling them all along " God sent me , I will be crucified as a ransom for many, I will raise up the third day and I will go to the right hand of God in heaven and send the Holy Spirit to those who accept the gospel...it of course doesn't end here with the dicsiples but they then carry out the commission of spreading the gospel and as they spread the gospel , the Holy Ghost comes to those who believe the gospel even the Gentiles

    “Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

    The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

    How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

    And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; ....... And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

    To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

    And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
    **Acts‬ *10:34-45, 47-48‬ *KJV‬‬


    the modern church is like the Gentiles we first hear the gospel , if we believe it ....we will then be baptized as an act of faith, we receive the spirit through faith , and the remission of sins comes through baptism the act of faith of u if iyong ones self to Christ , being baptized into " the body of Christ" the church . Our sins are only remitted because he died to pay the price of death upon our heads. This is why we are baptized into his body that dies for sins sake, and lives for roghteousness sake.


    it has nothing to do with Jewish circumcision as we see here, those who were circumsized were amazed that the uncircumcised Gentiles have received the Holy Ghost . Baptism is a part of the process identified by God , it is part of,our faith . Always understanding there is physical baptism by immersion of water, for the remission of sins by faith which unites us in his death for sin....there is spiritual baptism by the word of Christ the gospel of the kingdom by faith this unites us in his life by the righteousness in the gospel. Salvation comes through the baptism of water for the remission of sins , and the baptism of the spirit which is the transformation beginning in the mind and heart that brings a new life

  15. #15
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    This post as often mine are bro, is just sharing scripture that's pertains to baptism and the gospel , not according to my opinion but just sharing what the scriptures say it means....


    there are two baptisms, water and spirit.

    there is baptism for the remission of sins, this is the baptism discussed in the op. But there is another baptism in Christ, there is a spiritual water that we are baptized with , it is his ministry, his words that make us clean. We are forgiven through baptism of water, this is an act of faith , an act of unifying ones self identifying with Jesus Christ as our savior. The whys and how's this applies to us , a couple examples are on the op sort of just says what it says regarding baptism , the crucifixion and resurrection.

    sin has a price demanded upon mankind, the death of the sinner is the price required for sin. When we are baptized we are baptized into the body of Christ. The body that died on the cross for our sin, and also the body which walked away from the empty tomb because of his righteousness.

    our job is to follow Jesus away from the tomb where the sinner remains. Our choice is we can sit and weep inside the tomb because we want the life behind, or we can follow Jesus out of the tomb into a new life of freedom in obedience , learning that sin is an illusion, and life is found in being who we really Are in Christ, renewing the mind brought the knowledge of Jesus Christ.


    there is baptism for the remission of sins, and there is baptism of the spirit.


    it's not my place to say who's saved or who's required to be baptized ect I believe every believer has their own relationship with God through Christ and is accountable for the measure of understanding they have.....just a guy sharing scripture and a few thoughts.


    God bless thanks for the add
    Yes, and I do appreciate you sharing your thoughts. I see Baptism as just an initiation ritual into Christianity, and a public confession to the community around us. But the implications of becoming a Christian is everything you're describing. I don't believe Baptism is necessary for salvation. It's what Baptism represents that is important, and you have ably explained this in showing that there are actually 2 baptisms. Water Baptism simply symbolizes the Spirit Baptism Christ came to bring us.

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