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Thread: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

  1. #91

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I concur that salvation is by faith alone and has nothing to do with dipping in water or receiving of the Holy Ghost. The Bible abounds with accounts of believers who got saved and had salvation long before they were privileged to receive the Holy Ghost. Baptism, however, is symbolic of the death of the old body of sin and the coming alive of the new man in Christ according to Rom 6:4.

    where are those accounts where anyone is saved and not baptized?

  2. #92

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Our sins are forgiven when we believe and confess Christ as Lord and saviour. So "baptism" is a confirmation of the death of the old man (sin) and the coming alive of the new man in Christ:

    Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”
    **Galatians‬ *3:26-27‬ *KJV‬‬

    “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”
    **Romans‬ *6:3-6‬ *KJV‬‬


    “In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
    **Colossians‬ *2:11-13‬ *KJV‬‬

    that's what's there " as many of us who are baptized into Christ ,,,buried with him in baptism ...through your faith in the operation of God " versus " whether or not you are baptized ....buried with him because you think you are" ... Faith based on what we think rather than what Gods word has said ....


    there's a difference , why does Paul explain the operation of baptism so thouroughly ? How were buried with him through baptism ? Why does he make such an obvious and strong correlation why waste the chapters he speaks about what baptism means ?


    better yet what would any believer do ....if they believed baptism is for the remission of sins like Peter said , like Paul is thouroughly explaining ? Why doesn't Paul ever have a chapter in his epistle saying " water baptism is nothing anymore , remission of sin comes because you believe your forgiven , it has nothing to do with baptism ?


    it seems like just what's there is the best way to shape our thoughts , ".....id say the bible makes baptism for the remission of sin a main theme from the beginning of the gospel , sent to the world in the great commission as a direct command of Jesus Christ ....and honestly can't understand why or how it ever became a question ....


    when we say " we're saved by faith , and talk of the righteousness of faith and things ...consider then what were taught about faith and salvation

    “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.



    By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

    By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.”
    **Hebrews‬ *11:1, 3, 6-8‬ *KJV‬‬


    Was it a " work " for Noah to obey God and build the ark so he could be saved ?

    was it a work for Abraham to leave his homeland because God said go and I'll bless you ?

    no , the reason is because they believed what God said , that's faith because they acted upon what God said . .....were saved by faith , not believing Jesus exists ...even demons know that and aren't saved , were saved by faith , we believe and know , so therefore we act. Baptism is for the clearing of conscience because it is an oath from God that when we're baptized into the death of Christ ...our sins are remitted .


    the baptism of the holy host people talk of , is something Jesus Christ does from heaven , from his to the believer by faith , it's not what he commanded the disciples to do....they were to baptize with water in his name , the baptism of the spirit is from Christ

  3. #93

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. "

    Water and spirit

    “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:”
    **Matthew‬ *3:16‬ *KJV‬‬

    Blood

    “For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
    **Matthew‬ *26:28‬ *KJV‬‬

    And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

    The water of repentance and remission of sin , the spirit from heaven by his resurrection, and the blood of Jesus Christ who is the propitiation for the sins of the world. The source of remission and forgiveness his sacrifice , the source of the Holy Ghost his resurrection and ascention , our act of faith ....to believe and be baptized into the faith ...

    our faith in obedience because we believe his gift of the spirit by promise , and his blood shed for our Forgivness ....Agreement. One faith .

    Jesus doesn't tell believers you have to shed your blood ...but he does say

    “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
    **John‬ *3:5‬ *KJV‬‬


    baptism in water for remission of sins , because we believe the gospel about repentance remission of sin. Jesus dying for our sins and being raised up and promising the spirit. Baptism of the spirit which can only come from God through Christ . It's not a command for us to put the Holy Ghost on someone , but for them to believe in the word , take faith in it , and receive the Holy Ghost , freely from him , a gift because we believe...remission of sin is based upon what he says , an act of faith because we believe , we get baptized knowing its for remission of sin....


    it's not a mystery at all , it's a circle that wastes time to hear gods declaration of anything , and then argue why it isn't correct or sure. It's mans flaw from the beginning

    " don't eat the fruit it's deadly ..." Said the Lord

    " surely the fruits not deadly " said the other source....

    and now we need salvation because it began with " hmm did God really say not to eat that fruit ? .....surely it's not as he said ...listen to me ....I got a better idea than God.

    it's still what happens in mans mind because of the knowledge of evil inherited " repent and be baptized everyone of you for remission of sins " .....says the Holy Ghost..

    " did God really say we need to get baptized for the remission of sins ? " that surely has nothing to do with anything, baptism has nothing to do with remission of sins ....listen to me I'll explain...." Says someone else ....

    futility is the argument.

    what if someone believes the gospel ....and decides " I don't need to believe the word , I believe Jesus died for my sins and I'm saved " I would say , why don't you believe what the gospel says ? Look at what Jesus said here , look at what Peter said here, look at how all the people heard and were gladly baptized in water with joy knowing thier sins were remitted according to what Gods word says ...look at all the info Paul explains baptism means for us , look at the example of Jesus Christ ...ect

    what if someone said " my friend wasn't baptized and they died , but they believed in Jesus , so now are they going to hell?

    I would reply , " brother , I would not tell Adolf hitter he was bound to hell , that's not my place , I'm no ones judge , take heart and pray about the matter , and know we have a God who loves us and has given his son to suffering and death to save us .....so I don't believe he's looking to send believers and decent folks who repented from thier sins and followed after him ,,, to hell for a technicality or because they didn't know the purpose and importance of baptism "


    and then I would say , but friend , salvation is now , for those who are present and have the opportunity to receive Jesus Christ , those should get baptized for the remission of sins a sap , because Gods word makes it clear , to do so." Repent and believe the gospel....


    I would never ever , create my own loopholes that omit Jesus Christ and the true gospel , because I didn't " agree" with his word. I'm nothing much , but I do understand the term lord , and what that means if he's my lord. I would just point people to the scriptures which are so clear and plain to a believer ....but some folks , and they have the right , believe faith as they decide is sufficient , " I don't need to repent to repent of sin or be baptized for remission like the bible says , I have faith , so I don't need to obey or do things Gods way , I don't need to know what's written or what Jesus preached I just need to believe he died and rose ....I don't need to believe like he has taught salvation comes , I have faith , it means no longer do I need to know and do what God says I need to do."


    I personally would say Christians should learn the gospel written because it's true . And it's God who has offered salvation in his word , he has set conditions through Christ for eternal,life ....we should hear , believe , and obey the lord.


    but this lane of contrary ideation is futile and as certain as the fruit to poison a believers faith and bring death. It's faith to hear and believe God and take his word as if he's God , and you know what he says is the right judgement of whatever the issue is . Jesus does indeed say this in his commission for the doctrine of the chirch he sent forth ...

    “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
    **Mark‬ *16:15-16‬ *KJV‬‬


    no one should then explain anything different , but should spread and preach the same things Jesus did .....it's the gospel of the kingdom of God, but rather we should learn the meaning and importance of baptism for remission of sins into the death of Jesus Christ according to scripture , and the receiving of the Holy Ghost according to scripture ....which he alone gives to believers the baptism of the holy Ghost is the promise we believe , the baptism of water for remission is the act of faith for the believing church to gain the promise of remission of sins by faith .

    note Jesus doesn't say ever " if one believes and isn't baptized , they are damned eternally" he says those who don't believe are damned .....it's best to just get baptized and if anyone asks you , tell them what baptism means if you know according to scripture , and then tell them they should do it ....there's no other real position on baptism that comes from the scriptures . there's no basis for any believer to re create the gospel

  4. #94
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Well yes and no. Certainly spiritual gifts may appear long after initial conversion. But I could not say that Salvation does not involve receiving the Holy Spirit. For me, Salvation comes by the Holy Spirit. That's why I call "Spirit Baptism" conversion.

    But I'm happy that you do not associate Water Baptism with Salvation. Can you imagine saying you want to be a Christian, and wait until Water Baptism to decide? Not good. No, Water Baptism is a public testimonial of the Salvation that has already happened in your life.
    My error: salvation requires the Spirit of God to indwell the heart of the believer. So yes, the Holy Spirit is part of salvation.

  5. #95
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, I agree. This is the standard definition of Christian Works. It isn't how we *earn* Salvation, but rather, the *fruits* of our Salvation. We prove our Salvation by displaying the works of Christ in our lives.

    I was, however, discussing something a little different with Walls, and I'm not sure he actually gets it. I'm saying that there is a different kind of "work" that a man does in accepting Salvation initially, and that work involves doing whatever Christ is asking of us in order for us to receive his Salvation. God may ask us to follow him, or to remain in our city. He may ask us to give up our wealth, or to remain wealthy and to give money. He may even ask us to be content in poverty, trusting in the Lord for our daily needs.

    Whatever Christ asks us to *do* to receive his Salvation is a *work* we must do to be saved. But let me be clear: it does *not* earn Salvation! Only the works that Christ did on the cross earned our Salvation. Only Christ could earn our Salvation. Christ is the one who determines what we must *do* to be Saved.

    So there may be something we have to do, as a form of "works," to be Saved. But it does not *earn* our Salvation. Our Salvation was earned only by Christ on the cross, when he forgave our sins and promised to give us his Spirit and the merit of his own righteousness.

    He gave us righteousness mixed with mercy. Salvation comes from him, but he may ask us to do something to get that. He will certainly ask us to give up our independent, carnal ways, in order to live for him spiritually.

    And he may ask us to give up our carnal lives in any way he sees fit. That may mean giving up our wealth, or it may mean giving up our worldly friends and business. We simply have to obey him, and this does represent a kind of "work."

    But it is not "works" in the sense of earning Salvation, and it is not "works" in the sense of Christian works following Salvation. This is what Walls does not seem to understand I'm talking about?
    What I get from reading your views above is that of contradiction and confusion. For example, you said:

    1. " and that work involves doing whatever Christ is asking of us in order for us to receive his Salvation". Jesus doesn't ask us to do anything for salvation than to believe in him by faith.
    2. "Whatever Christ asks us to *do* to receive his Salvation is a *work* we must do to be saved" The only thing required of us to be saved is faith in Christ and faith is not work. Paul explained it in Rom 4.
    3. Whether one is asked to give up his worldly friends or money, etc. invariably comes after our conversion. The rich man who Jesus told to give up his riches and come and follow him has often been misunderstood. What Jesus asked of the rich man was a test of faith - given up his wealth alone would not have saved him. But trusting in Christ by doing what was asked of him is what would have saved him.

  6. #96
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    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    where are those accounts where anyone is saved and not baptized?
    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The Bible abounds with accounts of believers who got saved and had salvation long before they were privileged to receive the Holy Ghost.
    For clarity, I have quoted exactly what I meant above. My point is that some are saved long before they received the Holy Ghost. In Acts 8:15-16 the people of Samaria believed and were saved. But it was only after Peter visited them that they received the Holy Ghost.

  7. #97

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    For clarity, I have quoted exactly what I meant above. My point is that some are saved long before they received the Holy Ghost. In Acts 8:15-16 the people of Samaria believed and were saved. But it was only after Peter visited them that they received the Holy Ghost.
    only because the Holy Ghost wasn't given u til Jesus ascended to the throne...they were standing in front of Jesus Christ , the Holy Ghost was in him .

    I want to be really clear . What this op was about was never whether baptism is necessary for salvation....it was an attempt of a discussion about what the bible teaches baptism is for ......do I believe if a sinner turns tomjesus Christ in faith , and they for whatever reason don't get baptized ...even though they believe in Jesus thier lost on a technicality ...absolutely not , that's between them and Jesus Christ ....that's not my place to ever make such a reach that I should make a jidgement about any other man or woman's salvation.

    I believe it's about seeking after God , through Jesus Christ according to the gospel and what he said .....and he and his disciple taught baptism in water for the remission of sins....is my point , sorry for interjecting ....


    do you have any thoughts or scriptures regarding the purpose of baptism ?

  8. #98

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    My error: salvation requires the Spirit of God to indwell the heart of the believer. So yes, the Holy Spirit is part of salvation.
    Everything we learn about in the gospel is about salvation...repentance, the righteousness of Christ , eternal judgement , forgiveness , remission of sins , receiving the Holy Spirit ....loving others the way he teaches ....salvation is faith in action built upon his word.

  9. #99

    Re: death and resurrection....and baptism some scripture to consider

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    What I get from reading your views above is that of contradiction and confusion. For example, you said:

    1. " and that work involves doing whatever Christ is asking of us in order for us to receive his Salvation". Jesus doesn't ask us to do anything for salvation than to believe in him by faith.
    2. "Whatever Christ asks us to *do* to receive his Salvation is a *work* we must do to be saved" The only thing required of us to be saved is faith in Christ and faith is not work. Paul explained it in Rom 4.
    3. Whether one is asked to give up his worldly friends or money, etc. invariably comes after our conversion. The rich man who Jesus told to give up his riches and come and follow him has often been misunderstood. What Jesus asked of the rich man was a test of faith - given up his wealth alone would not have saved him. But trusting in Christ by doing what was asked of him is what would have saved him.
    that's a really good observation of the rich young ruler. If you look closely , it was a reproof by Jesus . A really insightful one . The young man had kept the commandments according to rule of law. But Jesus is looking into his heart where his issue lies , he loves money more than his fellow man . It is about turning this young mans heart , from rulekeeping , to love for our fellow man . About his righteousness surpassing that of the Pharisees ....to be ourptwardly obedient to a law that's built upon " don't do this ...don't do this ...don't do this ....is about the " works" of the flesh we need to rest from. Meaning the sinful attitudes and actions Paul identifies as the works of the flesh ....


    sometimes it's hard to discuss the gospel , when there is a false ideation created in someone's mind beforehand it's the danger of false doctrines . When they are preached the people are told this is Gods word , this is what God said...but then one scripture is gathered out of a letter from Paul such as " there is now therefore no condemnation in Christ Jesus " then another out of context scripture " you are saved by grace and not by works so no one can boast" then maybe another John 3:16 whosoever believes in him ...shall have eternal life "

    if we build a doctrine like that and put it forth as anointed and from God , then we see " you must repent of your sins lest you also perish " or Paul stating all the sinful deeds and actions and then explaining anyone who lives like this in these things will. Ot inherit the kingdom....but what's happened is we then because there is a false idea that belief , faith means you never need to hear what he said and obey the things he said ...


    it's sort of the argument with some " I have faith so therefore my actions no longer apply " which of course would be a reprobate faith built upon a lie. But I don't need to say that , I need to omit the things that bring repentance , righteousness, salvation and explain those things are wrong , "you don't get it , listen to me ..ill tell you what the bible says , but don't accept what is written , hear me" see this scripture " no condemnation in Christ " that means no one who ever believes Jesus existed and died and rose , can never be condemned ...."


    it's a mess really when we turn our eyes away from the scripture it leaves mankind wondering what God wills for man , what he is like , what he actually said ........but we have the gospel sent forth as the eternal word meant for us to embrace and know him through Christ .....but ....if we refuse to accept his record of salvation ....we can never be saved in his salvation which is the only salvation offered...

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