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Thread: counterfeit miracles

  1. #1
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    counterfeit miracles

    I've been a part of Pentecostalism for many years now, and have had opportunity to scrutinize it without feeling divisive. It needs to be scrutinized for the same reason that Paul exhorted churches to judge prophecies by a group analysis. 1 Cor 14.29

    At the start of the Pentecostal movement a doctrine was concocted that *required* speaking in tongues as the primary evidence that the Spirit Baptism had been received. This was in contradiction to Paul's rhetorical question: "Do all speak in tongues?"

    Pentecostals claimed that *all* spoke in tongues on the Day of Pentecost, and that later, the same mass experience happened as evidence that the Spirit Baptism had been received. However, this appears to be only early after the out-pouring of the Holy Spirit. It was never taught by the apostles that this was to be an expected phenomena, or that it should become a teaching.

    This mass experience of tongues speaking was initiated strictly by the Holy Spirit after the initial outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, and not something that anybody was encouraged to display. Paul later encouraged tongues speaking as a prayer language, but never indicated it was to be experienced by everybody within the church.

    When the Azusa St. Revival broke out in LA in 1906 all kinds of phenomena apparently resulted, not all of which was truly "spiritual." At least, it wasn't God's spirituality, but rather, a counterfeit spirituality.

    And as ethnologists have pointed out, glossolalia has not been limited to the Christian communion. There are other spiritual sources for the manifestation of tongues that is not from the Holy Spirit. So it behooves us to analyze what is counterfeit, and what is real.

    Along the same vein we should be concerned with prophecy, which also can be counterfeit or real. Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John all expressed concern that Christians might listen to false prophecy, which again, is a false spirit. According to Paul, this will blossom into an all out counterfeit manifestation of miracles in the time of Antichrist's revelation.

    Do you share my concerns, and do you have any comments? Here are a view of some of the relevant passages...

    2 Peter 2.1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
    2 Cor 11.13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
    1 John 4.Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
    1 Kings 22.22 “‘By what means?’ the Lord asked. “‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said. “‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’
    2 Thes 2.9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.


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    Re: counterfeit miracles

    The danger is still as it was back in the days when Jesus walked the earth for a ministry that lasted 3.5 years (or so). Real s/w were done, and some claimed they were not "of" God. The situation gave us a great lesson, claiming that the power of the Holy Spirit is actually demonic, then blasphemy of the Holy Spirit has been committed. We are given lessons and warnings that we are to "discern" what is of God (real s/w), what is demonic (false s/w) and what is simply man (fake s/w).

    God has led me to a "Baptist" denominational church as I've testified of in the other thread a month or so back. I've discovered that several do speak in tongues. So while the term "Pentecostals" is always utilized, back when the first tongues began to be spoken, believers were simply called, Christians. Or brother, sister, saint, etc. So labeling never helps topics such as this.

    With all that said... if I was to only post testimony of s/w, would you feel that I am only trying to drag this thread down because ALL I WANT to raise in a thread about false s/w is, real s/w?

    I have experienced false tongues once. I was an elder (at this time) in a church that God had me serving Him. A member in the church, during an alter call began cawing, literally like a crow and as the pastor continued to pray over all the youth, the cawing got louder and louder. The person was even strutting around and flapping their arms. I grabbed two of the decons, one of which has experience with casting out of demons and told them both to take hold of the person's hand and lead them out of the sanctuary and into a room where they can all be secluded. I watched as both approached the person and the one who has been involved in deliverance, first whispered into the person's ear and down they went, spasming and two others helped remove the person from the sanctuary. I recall how the pastor looked over at me and raised an eyebrow and I just gave him a and he focused back on the praying for the next youth. All was returned to order.

    Yes, the pastor counseled that person and assisted the person of this spiritual problem.

    A major problem concerning tongues is as it was with the Corinthians. Based on what Paul wrote, seems many today, if they could have been witness to all those many saints who spoke in tongues, they would be declared the tongues was fake (of man) or at worse, false (demonic). But, we know they were not false, they were DONE WRONG. Still the Holy Spirit empowering them though

    So, when the Holy Spirit "does" something, do we discern with out LACK of knowledge and come to a conclusion we feel is right? Do we discern with what our church believes?

    Or do we actually EXERCISE the various gifts of the Holy Spirit to HELP us discern ALONG with, PROPER knowledge of scripture and literally by familiarity in experience OF Holy Spirit empowered tongues or any s/w?

    A brain storm: A person who has never experienced any speaking in tongues, been raised in a church denying ANY gifts of the Holy Spirit by being told that the "Bible" is "the perfect" and thus ALL s/w are ended and all the Apostles are dead... walks into the Baptist church God has me serving and they decide to seat themselves in a far corner as a visitor tends to do. In the corner they head over to, is someone all alone as well and as this visitor nears them, they hear that this person is praying "in tongues" in the proper order, i.e. when there is no power given for interpretation, pray alone to God.

    How can we HELP this person mature, NOW that they have been exposed to Holy Spirit empowerment for the first time?
    Slug1--out

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  3. #3
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    Re: counterfeit miracles

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    The danger is still as it was back in the days when Jesus walked the earth for a ministry that lasted 3.5 years (or so). Real s/w were done, and some claimed they were not "of" God. The situation gave us a great lesson, claiming that the power of the Holy Spirit is actually demonic, then blasphemy of the Holy Spirit has been committed. We are given lessons and warnings that we are to "discern" what is of God (real s/w), what is demonic (false s/w) and what is simply man (fake s/w).

    God has led me to a "Baptist" denominational church as I've testified of in the other thread a month or so back. I've discovered that several do speak in tongues. So while the term "Pentecostals" is always utilized, back when the first tongues began to be spoken, believers were simply called, Christians. Or brother, sister, saint, etc. So labeling never helps topics such as this.

    With all that said... if I was to only post testimony of s/w, would you feel that I am only trying to drag this thread down because ALL I WANT to raise in a thread about false s/w is, real s/w?

    I have experienced false tongues once. I was an elder (at this time) in a church that God had me serving Him. A member in the church, during an alter call began cawing, literally like a crow and as the pastor continued to pray over all the youth, the cawing got louder and louder. The person was even strutting around and flapping their arms. I grabbed two of the decons, one of which has experience with casting out of demons and told them both to take hold of the person's hand and lead them out of the sanctuary and into a room where they can all be secluded. I watched as both approached the person and the one who has been involved in deliverance, first whispered into the person's ear and down they went, spasming and two others helped remove the person from the sanctuary. I recall how the pastor looked over at me and raised an eyebrow and I just gave him a and he focused back on the praying for the next youth. All was returned to order.

    Yes, the pastor counseled that person and assisted the person of this spiritual problem.

    A major problem concerning tongues is as it was with the Corinthians. Based on what Paul wrote, seems many today, if they could have been witness to all those many saints who spoke in tongues, they would be declared the tongues was fake (of man) or at worse, false (demonic). But, we know they were not false, they were DONE WRONG. Still the Holy Spirit empowering them though

    So, when the Holy Spirit "does" something, do we discern with out LACK of knowledge and come to a conclusion we feel is right? Do we discern with what our church believes?

    Or do we actually EXERCISE the various gifts of the Holy Spirit to HELP us discern ALONG with, PROPER knowledge of scripture and literally by familiarity in experience OF Holy Spirit empowered tongues or any s/w?

    A brain storm: A person who has never experienced any speaking in tongues, been raised in a church denying ANY gifts of the Holy Spirit by being told that the "Bible" is "the perfect" and thus ALL s/w are ended and all the Apostles are dead... walks into the Baptist church God has me serving and they decide to seat themselves in a far corner as a visitor tends to do. In the corner they head over to, is someone all alone as well and as this visitor nears them, they hear that this person is praying "in tongues" in the proper order, i.e. when there is no power given for interpretation, pray alone to God.

    How can we HELP this person mature, NOW that they have been exposed to Holy Spirit empowerment for the first time?
    No, you're not dragging things down. I'm interested in any angle at all. The person at the back of the church can be helped as any one Christian can help another Christian. And if you have the gift of tongues, or know about its true experience, you can certainly help with any information about it.

    In Pentecostalism I find the biggest problem with spiritual gifts is in some not seeming to know that the Spirit is subject to the Prophets. There is this tendency to just blurt out prophecies, or tongues, or even dance around spontaneously at times.

    Lately in our church we've been reduced to just a few prophecies. But these prophecies are not, in my view, adequately checked. The pastor may say something like, Does anybody witness to this prophecy? And there are always "yes men"--not real discussion. We just get pastoral preaching, without commentary--only a confirmation that is less than satisfying to me, and less than the Scriptural order of things.

    Anyway, I'm much less concerned about tongues than prophecy. Our own church has broken up over prophecies and words from God that were not adequately tested. "Words" were given that suggested "Satan is in the worship team." A long time worship leader was told to "sit down--you need time to heal." Another pastor told her, "You need to run out of that church--run, and don't walk."

    We've heard about the Kansas City prophets, and about supposed excesses associated with some. But then I hear incredible prophecies like Kim Clement's prophecy of Trump's presidential bid and victory--foretold before Trump even decided to run, I think?

    There has been David Wilkerson's Vision--something I've been warned to not downplay on this forum. But the point is not to attack him, but just to point out that I was bothered by his visions for years and years! So much was true, and yet other parts seemed false to me. It just made me wonder how difficult it can be to discern true prophecy from false prophecy?

    But I think I'm getting a better picture of things now. Prophecies that try to be a personal guide may be bogus. Prophecies that carry personal vendettas may be bogus. Legalistic prophecies may be bogus. We need to take a step back and see if our spirits are being built up in our most holy faith, or are we being led by the nose somehow?

    I hope to get more comments. Thanks for yours!

  4. #4

    Re: counterfeit miracles

    The revelatory gifts of tongues, prophesy, and word of knowledge all ceased when the New Testament was completed in the first century. The Bible bears this out:

  5. #5

    Re: counterfeit miracles

    For some reason, I couldn't post the youtube teaching above. I will make a simple link to it here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZkZllaUvEY

  6. #6

    Re: counterfeit miracles

    What has actually been happening the last 120 years or so is that Jesus' prophesy about lying signs and wonders and false prophets have come to pass with incredible accuracy.

    People have been experiencing all kinds of incredible physical manifestations, false visions and dreams, false prophesies, and synchronicities in their lives through these charismatic movements. I know first hand, and by God's grace I escaped the deception and Jesus helped me understand what is going on.

    He warned us not to submit to hypocrites, liars, and people with a low standard for truth. We are called to love the truth and hold it in high regard. Humanity doesn't want to do that, and Christians have been worn down the last century with this flood of deception and signs and wonders.

    The Lord showed me, with His word, what is actually going on. The beast is at work utilizing a power given to it by Satan. The churches are filled with hypocrites and liars using this power to delude and control anyone who would seek to sincerely follow God in any measure.

    Here is a teaching on this witchcraft occult power at work:

    IMPORTANT NOTICE: No media files are hosted on these forums. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website. We can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. If the video does not play, wait a minute or try again later.

  7. #7

    Re: counterfeit miracles

    Sorry, I guess the best way to post a youtube video is with a link. Here is the teaching on how they are using witchcraft to bring forth signs and wonders:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyka2Djk4GQ

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    Re: counterfeit miracles

    Quote Originally Posted by BCHYH View Post
    The revelatory gifts of tongues, prophesy, and word of knowledge all ceased when the New Testament was completed in the first century. The Bible bears this out:
    There are many great Pentecostal brothers and sisters on this site, please distinguish the difference between signs , wonders and gifts to FASLE signs , wonders and gifts.

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    Re: counterfeit miracles

    Quote Originally Posted by BCHYH View Post
    The revelatory gifts of tongues, prophesy, and word of knowledge all ceased when the New Testament was completed in the first century. The Bible bears this out:
    Please post the verses that bear this out . Here is a thread you might find some thoughts on what you speak of . https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...e-the-the-same

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    Re: counterfeit miracles

    I find myself wondering, as a Pentecostal, about the supposed doctrine that all should speak of tongues as the sign of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Paul asked, rhetorically, "Do all speak in tongues," suggesting that this is a gift discriminately given to individuals by the Holy Spirit as God determines.

    In my view, those who practice a "prayer language," in order to pacify Pentecostal Doctrine, are sometimes practicing a true gift, and some are simply imitating it. But I still have to figure out why Christians, immediately after the Day of Pentecost arrived, began to speak in tongues en masse, and not strictly individually?

    Following I found a couple of passages in the Scriptures, indicating that sometimes there is this mass outpouring of God's Spirit upon people. And apparently, it doesn't even mean that the people receiving the gift are worthy--only that they have some openness to it. Below, we read that King Saul, out to kill David, ended up being impacted by the presence of the Spirit among the prophets, and prophesied himself! And others were also influenced in the same way.

    We also note that in Moses' time, Moses asked God for help with people who were burdening him with their needs, and were not in themselves spiritual enough to trust in God for themselves. God provided Moses with 70 leaders, who immediately signaled that they had received the Spirit of God to anoint them with this ministry. The indication that they received this gift was that they all prophesied.

    But interestingly, they discontinued prophecy, and just continued to lead in a spiritual way, like Moses. Some people think this indicates that the new leaders simply neglected the gift of prophecy after initially receiving the Spirit. But I think prophecy was just a mass outpouring of the Spirit, as tongues were on the day of Pentecost, to indicate that the Spirit had fallen. The ministry continued after that, without particular attention to the gift of prophecy, which remained with Moses and with particular individuals selected by the Holy Spirit.

    In other words, tongues were not for all, even though it was initially used to show that the Spirit had been poured out on all. And prophecy was not for all, although it was used to show that the Spirit had been poured out on all. Here are the passages:

    Num 11.13 Where can I get meat for all these people? They keep wailing to me, ‘Give us meat to eat!’ 14 I cannot carry all these people by myself; the burden is too heavy for me. 15 If this is how you are going to treat me, please go ahead and kill me—if I have found favor in your eyes—and do not let me face my own ruin.”
    16 The Lord said to Moses: “Bring me seventy of Israel’s elders who are known to you as leaders and officials among the people. Have them come to the tent of meeting, that they may stand there with you. 17 I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take some of the power of the Spirit that is on you and put it on them. They will share the burden of the people with you so that you will not have to carry it alone....
    24 So Moses went out and told the people what the Lord had said. He brought together seventy of their elders and had them stand around the tent. 25 Then the Lord came down in the cloud and spoke with him, and he took some of the power of the Spirit that was on him and put it on the seventy elders. When the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied—but did not do so again.

    1 Sam 19.18 When David had fled and made his escape, he went to Samuel at Ramah and told him all that Saul had done to him. Then he and Samuel went to Naioth and stayed there. 19 Word came to Saul: “David is in Naioth at Ramah”; 20 so he sent men to capture him. But when they saw a group of prophets prophesying, with Samuel standing there as their leader, the Spirit of God came on Saul’s men, and they also prophesied. 21 Saul was told about it, and he sent more men, and they prophesied too. Saul sent men a third time, and they also prophesied. 22 Finally, he himself left for Ramah and went to the great cistern at Seku. And he asked, “Where are Samuel and David?”
    “Over in Naioth at Ramah,” they said.
    23 So Saul went to Naioth at Ramah. But the Spirit of God came even on him, and he walked along prophesying until he came to Naioth. 24 He stripped off his garments, and he too prophesied in Samuel’s presence. He lay naked all that day and all that night. This is why people say, “Is Saul also among the prophets?”

  11. #11
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    Re: counterfeit miracles

    Randy, I think you are making excellent observations in a gracious manner. This issue is not easy. Our individual experiences do affect our interpretation of Scripture.

    When I became a Christian in 1986, within the first year I briefly (for a couple weeks) got involved with a cult of Christianity - The Way International (TWI). Everyone in our group in that cult spoke in tongues - except me.

    The reason I was susceptible to them was I had just gotten saved after growing up Roman Catholic. In reading the Bible I learned Catholicism had some serious errors. We had some students in my high school and a gym teacher that were part of TWI. I didn’t know what a cult was. I just knew they liked the Bible like I did. When I found out they taught Jesus wasn’t God my thought was “another thing the RCC got wrong”. In God’s providence, a friend straightened me out on that and I left TWI.

    Then I joined Calvary Chapel and spent 18 years there. They are charismatic. So, I was charismatic.However, I’m very left brained. So I started purchasing various systematic theology volumes. In the late 1980’s I began to realize we seemed odd. Most of Christianity seemed cessationist. Most believed “sign gifts” had ceased early. Moody Bible Institute and radio, Dallas Theological Seminary, The Master’s College, Westminster.....all united on this.

    I went to a very charismatic Bible college in 1991. Everyone spoke in tongues. I literally mean everyone - except me.

    It’s interesting that over the following decades the positions seem to have flipped. The church as a whole has gotten more charismatic. I’ve gone cessationist. I have never seen what I believe to be a genuine “sign gift”.

    This is often misunderstood. People mistakenly believe cessationists don’t believe miraculous healing happens. False! We do believe in modern day healings. What we do not believe is that any individual today has the spiritual gift of healing or miracles.

    As I started to doubt the sign gifts were real, something occurred to me that had not previously. The tongues of TWI sounded identical to all other tongues. That’s a problem. People that reject the deity of Jesus shouldn’t have the genuine article.

    Another thing began to bother me biblically. Paul’s comments on the gifts begin with a lengthy discussion of an analogy with the human body. Our physical bodies are made of many parts. No parts serve themselves. Each part is there to serve the entirety of the human body.

    Then Paul talks about love. Love is not self-seeking. Love is others centered - like our body parts.

    Modern day tongues are heavily emphasized as a private prayer language. This is completely counter to Paul’s guidelines for gift use. I believe any attempt to take Paul’s words on tongues as a private gift are a mistaken interpretation. That’s why tongues must be interpreted. It’s for the body, not the individual.

    At the Bible college I went to, that never happened - ever. Everyone spoke at the same time during our chapel services. No interpretation ever.

    I don’t think we should vilify either side of the debate though. Many who believe in these gifts and claim to use them are better Christians than I. But same with cessationists. Many of them are better Christians than I. God is using both groups powerfully.

    If these gifts are believed by a group, I also don’t see how they can claim to hold to sola Scriptura. If God is speaking in these gifts, then it IS God speaking. It cannot have less authority than the Bible.

    Good topic. Necessary discussion. Serious topic. Love all the brethren no matter where they land in the debate.

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  12. #12
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    Re: counterfeit miracles

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    Randy, I think you are making excellent observations in a gracious manner. This issue is not easy. Our individual experiences do affect our interpretation of Scripture.

    When I became a Christian in 1986, within the first year I briefly (for a couple weeks) got involved with a cult of Christianity - The Way International (TWI). Everyone in our group in that cult spoke in tongues - except me.

    The reason I was susceptible to them was I had just gotten saved after growing up Roman Catholic. In reading the Bible I learned Catholicism had some serious errors. We had some students in my high school and a gym teacher that were part of TWI. I didn’t know what a cult was. I just knew they liked the Bible like I did. When I found out they taught Jesus wasn’t God my thought was “another thing the RCC got wrong”. In God’s providence, a friend straightened me out on that and I left TWI.

    Then I joined Calvary Chapel and spent 18 years there. They are charismatic. So, I was charismatic.However, I’m very left brained. So I started purchasing various systematic theology volumes. In the late 1980’s I began to realize we seemed odd. Most of Christianity seemed cessationist. Most believed “sign gifts” had ceased early. Moody Bible Institute and radio, Dallas Theological Seminary, The Master’s College, Westminster.....all united on this.

    I went to a very charismatic Bible college in 1991. Everyone spoke in tongues. I literally mean everyone - except me.

    It’s interesting that over the following decades the positions seem to have flipped. The church as a whole has gotten more charismatic. I’ve gone cessationist. I have never seen what I believe to be a genuine “sign gift”.

    This is often misunderstood. People mistakenly believe cessationists don’t believe miraculous healing happens. False! We do believe in modern day healings. What we do not believe is that any individual today has the spiritual gift of healing or miracles.

    As I started to doubt the sign gifts were real, something occurred to me that had not previously. The tongues of TWI sounded identical to all other tongues. That’s a problem. People that reject the deity of Jesus shouldn’t have the genuine article.

    Another thing began to bother me biblically. Paul’s comments on the gifts begin with a lengthy discussion of an analogy with the human body. Our physical bodies are made of many parts. No parts serve themselves. Each part is there to serve the entirety of the human body.

    Then Paul talks about love. Love is not self-seeking. Love is others centered - like our body parts.

    Modern day tongues are heavily emphasized as a private prayer language. This is completely counter to Paul’s guidelines for gift use. I believe any attempt to take Paul’s words on tongues as a private gift are a mistaken interpretation. That’s why tongues must be interpreted. It’s for the body, not the individual.

    At the Bible college I went to, that never happened - ever. Everyone spoke at the same time during our chapel services. No interpretation ever.

    I don’t think we should vilify either side of the debate though. Many who believe in these gifts and claim to use them are better Christians than I. But same with cessationists. Many of them are better Christians than I. God is using both groups powerfully.

    If these gifts are believed by a group, I also don’t see how they can claim to hold to sola Scriptura. If God is speaking in these gifts, then it IS God speaking. It cannot have less authority than the Bible.

    Good topic. Necessary discussion. Serious topic. Love all the brethren no matter where they land in the debate.
    I sincerely appreciate the input. Few have the ability to speak their mind in a sometimes-hostile environment with a gracious spirit, as you have. I'm different in my beliefs, but very similar in sentiment. But I don't really know.

    In 74 I ran into a man who played me a tape of the Way group in mass worship, speaking in "tongues." I didn't realize it at the time, but later came to know that the Way was a cult with aberrant beliefs, as you indicated. And yes, it was very similar to what I had experienced in the charismatic movement in the Seattle area, with mass speaking in tongues in unified worship. At that time I had been coerced into "speaking in tongues," but ultimately gave that practice up, believing it was just self-contrived.

    One day, I in frustration told God I was fed up with the "tongues" thing, because of its "contrived," ambiguous practice, and cynically told God I was giving up all belief in it unless He gave me a "sign from heaven." I instantly felt ashamed to ask God something so obviously defiant in nature, and quickly adjusted my request to a "sign on earth."

    At that precise moment a fireworks shot up across the sky in front of me and dropped to earth! Don't ask me what it means--I came to believe that only *some* have the gift of tongues, the "prayer language" is only for some, and that universal prayer language is bogus.

    I don't practice "tongues speaking" anymore. But like you, I don't judge others, particularly when the Scriptures do speak of tongues. My wife speaks in tongues.

    I believe in the same thing about healing. Much of it in the Pentecostal churches is brain-washed doctrine, an expression of faith that healing has happened even when it hasn't.

    Some must be true, and I chalk that up to specialized ministries. But others, like myself, only receive occasional answers to prayer. I believe that many of those with specialized healing ministries give their ministries a bad reputation by mixing up true miracles with ones "claimed by faith." We should be honest and recognize that God does not always heal.

    I really have a problem with the subjective nature of these various charismatic practices. I'm one of those people who need a firm biblical basis, because like you, I've been in cults, and have been fooled by the external phenomena. There needs to be a clear association between spirituality and truth.

    I don't care if I'm in an ocean of charismatics. I'm going to hear from God on an issue! And what I read in Scriptures admonishes us to be of good character, to be honest with one another. It would never "claim healings" where they aren't really happening.

    And the Scriptures say that God gives gifts "individually." Furthermore, only select individuals have specific "charismatic" ministries--men like Elijah and Elisha, Moses, and Jesus, Pau, Peter and John.

    The "greater things" Jesus said we would do in his name sometimes applied exclusively to the apostles in the matter of reaching greater territory with the Gospel. But I don't believe the "greater things than Jesus" ever indicated we should all do *greater miracles!*

    That's not possible. We may see *some* miracles, but the only thing we do "greater" than Jesus is reach beyond Israel to win converts from other countries.

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    Re: counterfeit miracles

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I sincerely appreciate the input. Few have the ability to speak their mind in a sometimes-hostile environment with a gracious spirit, as you have. I'm different in my beliefs, but very similar in sentiment. But I don't really know.

    In 74 I ran into a man who played me a tape of the Way group in mass worship, speaking in "tongues." I didn't realize it at the time, but later came to know that the Way was a cult with aberrant beliefs, as you indicated. And yes, it was very similar to what I had experienced in the charismatic movement in the Seattle area, with mass speaking in tongues in unified worship. At that time I had been coerced into "speaking in tongues," but ultimately gave that practice up, believing it was just self-contrived.

    One day, I in frustration told God I was fed up with the "tongues" thing, because of its "contrived," ambiguous practice, and cynically told God I was giving up all belief in it unless He gave me a "sign from heaven." I instantly felt ashamed to ask God something so obviously defiant in nature, and quickly adjusted my request to a "sign on earth."

    At that precise moment a fireworks shot up across the sky in front of me and dropped to earth! Don't ask me what it means--I came to believe that only *some* have the gift of tongues, the "prayer language" is only for some, and that universal prayer language is bogus.

    I don't practice "tongues speaking" anymore. But like you, I don't judge others, particularly when the Scriptures do speak of tongues. My wife speaks in tongues.

    I believe in the same thing about healing. Much of it in the Pentecostal churches is brain-washed doctrine, an expression of faith that healing has happened even when it hasn't.

    Some must be true, and I chalk that up to specialized ministries. But others, like myself, only receive occasional answers to prayer. I believe that many of those with specialized healing ministries give their ministries a bad reputation by mixing up true miracles with ones "claimed by faith." We should be honest and recognize that God does not always heal.

    I really have a problem with the subjective nature of these various charismatic practices. I'm one of those people who need a firm biblical basis, because like you, I've been in cults, and have been fooled by the external phenomena. There needs to be a clear association between spirituality and truth.

    I don't care if I'm in an ocean of charismatics. I'm going to hear from God on an issue! And what I read in Scriptures admonishes us to be of good character, to be honest with one another. It would never "claim healings" where they aren't really happening.

    And the Scriptures say that God gives gifts "individually." Furthermore, only select individuals have specific "charismatic" ministries--men like Elijah and Elisha, Moses, and Jesus, Pau, Peter and John.

    The "greater things" Jesus said we would do in his name sometimes applied exclusively to the apostles in the matter of reaching greater territory with the Gospel. But I don't believe the "greater things than Jesus" ever indicated we should all do *greater miracles!*

    That's not possible. We may see *some* miracles, but the only thing we do "greater" than Jesus is reach beyond Israel to win converts from other countries.
    I agree with your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 12 whenever tongues existed, today or yesterday, it was never for anybody. The NASB puts those questions best to show a negative answer is expected.....

    1 Corinthians 12:30 (NAS): All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

    It’s possible in Acts 2 and other places everyone at a location may have (or maybe not) spoken in tongues but it’s clear to me that this is historical narrative and descriptive of the events and not prescriptive for all Christians at all times but as God poured his Spirit out initially on various people groups. Corinthians doesn’t match that.

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

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  14. #14
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    Re: counterfeit miracles

    Quote Originally Posted by BCHYH View Post
    The revelatory gifts of tongues, prophesy, and word of knowledge all ceased when the New Testament was completed in the first century. The Bible bears this out:
    So a question that needs an answer is what provides the supernatural power when tongues/interpretation of these tongues, prophetic words that come to pass and words of knowledge that are 100% accurate, happen?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  15. #15

    Re: counterfeit miracles

    Tongues are a gift of the Holy Ghost , given to some , as some are given interpretation of tongues , it's not a requirement Correct

    “Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.


    Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.”
    **1 Corinthians‬ *12:27-31‬ *KJV‬‬

    The gifts of the Holy Ghost are distributed among the body of Christ , to the point that we come together and experience fullness....not create divisions and denominations setting us apart , together is power in the church. The example is used about the body , there's feet, hands, ears , head, torso ect....each member has a function , and diversity of gifts to accomplish that calling in the body...it's meant to be that way ,msomthat christians come together and share the gifts which are meant for the whole....


    Yes brother , false prophecy, and false doctrines, false teachers of those doctrines . We're warned many times of this . It doesn't seem dangerous to the spiritual growth of a Christian but what happens is , faith can be in the truth of the gospel , or...it can be built with fraudulent bricks , which will not stand the test of winds .

    adding to your quote from Peter there , we have this troubling quote from Paul , which , remember is was over 1900 years ago in the beginnings of the church

    “I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.


    For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
    **2 Timothy‬ *4:1-4‬ *KJV‬‬

    good post bro...God bless

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