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Thread: what is the "First Resurrection"

  1. #16
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    Re: what is the "First Resurrection"

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    Hey Randyk,
    I agree with your assessment on “all man kind being brought to life”. The issue is that Paul states “each in his own order”. IOW, there is a chronological order to the different resurrections. We then are given two types of resurrections specifically spelled out…

    1. We have Christ resurrection as the first fruits
    2. All those who are Christs (believers) at His coming

    However, a third resurrection is demanded and implied by the text. That a third and final resurrection of the unjust is implied in the verse is demanded by that fact that Paul spoke of "an order of resurrections "for "ALL men" but only spoke of Christ's and then believers being raised at "Christ's coming". If Paul did not imply that there would be a final resurrection of the wicked after Christ reign and after the 1st resurrection, then he would not have stated that "ALL will be made alive” nor would there have been an logical explanation of the order of resurrections as the resurrection of Christ was already past at the time of Paul’s writing about a coming order. Simply put, if "ALL" come to life and only a portion are specifically mentioned, then the remainder must be implied in the following judgment. Paul alludes to this third resurrection by saying “THEN comes the end… when all enemies are put under his feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed in death”. Part of this subduing “under His feet” is the final removal of the wicked into the lake of fire through the resurrection of condemnation. John harmonizes this period when “death is destroyed” in Revelation 20 when death is cast into the lake of fire. At this time, John sees a final resurrection of the wicked.
    Exactly how I see it so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner
    Yes, to clarify… I am a firm believer in the resurrection of the unjust. However, nowhere is the resurrection of the wicked called a “resurrection FROM the dead”. Even in the Acts 24:15 passage it is called a “resurrection OF the dead”. There is a difference. In fact, you will only see the terms “FROM (EK) the dead” in scriptures being applied to the righteous which in most cases demand a separate resurrection from the remaining dead ones who are left in the grave. In ancient Jewish thought, especially the intertestamental time period, the “dead” was an abode for the departed souls. When someone was raised “FROM” the dead it meant they were brought from the place of the dead ones, while leaving the rest of the dead behind. It was not merely a conscious awakening from the grave. The Jews have always believed in a special resurrection of the righteous who would rule with the messiah at His coming. This resurrection must be a special resurrection that is separate FROM AMONG the remaining dead.
    Interesting. I'll have to consult my brother about that. He is the "language guy" in our brotherly relationship. He likes the Greek and the Hebrew. I'll let you know what he says.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner
    The earliest church fathers also called the “first resurrection” the “resurrection FROM the dead” as well as the “resurrection of the just”. However, when speaking of the resurrection of the wicked, they never called in a “resurrection FROM the dead” but rather “the general resurrection” to denote the most millennial resurrection.
    Never heard about this. But then again, there's *lots of things* I'm sure I've never heard about!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner
    While we are on the subject of Daniel 12:2, here are my thoughts

    Dan 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

    Please notice: The word “Many” (rab) can mean:
    1. All--such as “there are many people in the world”
    2. A subset group of a larger group--such as “many kids have red hair”

    In Daniel, EVERY TIME the word “many” (rab) is used it refers to a subset group of a larger group. IOW, many is NOT everyone. See Dan 9:27, 11:14, 18, 26, 33-34, 39-41, 12:10)
    The emphasis in Dan 12.2 does seem to be on the righteous, with the wicked completing the thought. The "many" would then refer to the righteous.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner
    With this is mind, "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life” (Dan 12:2) refers to a subset group of a larger group (the dead). “Many” refers to the portion of the dead that will awake to eternal life and is the antecedent to the pronoun “these”. The word “many” limits the verb “awake” to only a portion of those who are asleep, thereby excluding the rest of the dead. The Hebrew and LXX demand this interpretation. Daniel’s description of the resurrection is completely consistent with the “first resurrection” of Revelation 20.

    If this were a general resurrection (both righteous and wicked), the text would be required to say “And All of those who sleep in the dust of the ground shall awake” but it DOESENT use "ALL". The very fact that only a subgroup awake from the dust of the ground DEMANDS that there is a TIME DIFEERENCE between “these,” righteous ones who awake at this time, and the “the others,” who’ll rise at a later time to shame and condemnation. If they both awake at the same time then the text would demand the phrase “all awake,” rather than “many” (which means a subset group of a larger group). Daniel used the word "all" (kol) 65 times in his writings, but carefully chose not to use it in Daniel 12:2.
    Yea, I've kind of looked at it this way without parsing the words. It makes sense. The words would have to be delicately placed, if they are to fit two resurrections! Some are "awakened," and others simply rise, and remain among the "dead," ie those who suffer the "2nd Death?"

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner
    Granted, this passage does not give the length of the gap between the two resurrections, whether it is 10 seconds, 10 hours or 1,000 years. However, Revelation 20 fills in the details and tells us that 1,000 years AFTER the resurrection of the just the “rest of the dead” come to life again.
    Thanks. I know there's a fallacy in trying to make the same words or phrases fit in all circumstances--context rules. But in this case, you make a strong argument. I'll think about it...

    Since we know the dead will experience resurrection, what does it mean to remain "among the dead?" Does this mean they receive eternal bodies and remain in a place reserved for "the dead?" These are some of the questions I've had to ask myself.

    Since I don't believe the Wicked will be tortured in Hell--God doesn't "torture" anybody--where will they go to be "tormented?" We know it is in "Outer Darkness," but where is this place? It is outside the New Jerusalem, beyond a Great Chasm? Have you ever thought about that, or is the question somewhat irrelevant inasmuch as the Scriptures are relatively silent about it?

  2. #17

    Banghead Re: what is the "First Resurrection"

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    The Jews have always believed in a special resurrection of the righteous who would rule with the messiah at His coming.
    This was the mindset of the Sadducees, who only thought of the resurrection with having to do with a persons body. After correcting their misunderstanding about marriage after the bodily resurrection, then our Lord said,

    But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Mt.22:31-32

    In other words, the Patriarchs died living. The were made alive, resurrected, before they died.

    And this is where sects like the Jehovah's Witnesses have distorted the scriptures with respect to the true identity of Jesus.

    When the Bible speaks of Christ being "the first fruits", it's in regard to the resurrection of our Lord's body, but Jesus was born living to begin with. He is the resurrection and people are made alive in him.

    Heretics ignore the fact that Jesus rose from the dead so mankind would have faith. Jesus didn't need to be made alive. He was always living.

  3. #18
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    Re: what is the "First Resurrection"

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    This was the mindset of the Sadducees, who only thought of the resurrection with having to do with a persons body.
    This is incorrect, the Sadducees did not believe in a resurrection at all…

    Mat_22:23 The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him,

    Mar_12:18 Then some Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him; and they asked Him, saying:

    Act_23:8 For Sadducees say that there is no resurrectionand no angel or spirit; but the Pharisees confess both
    .


    After correcting their misunderstanding about marriage after the bodily resurrection, then our Lord said,

    But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Mt.22:31-32

    In other words, the Patriarchs died living. The were made alive, resurrected, before they died.
    This is not true at all. The Patriarchs were not resurrected “before they died”… Hebrews 11 is clear that the Patriarchs “died in faith having NOT received the promise” but “rejected deliverance in order that they might obtain a better resurrection”.

    Likewise, Paul who was already born again, specifically stated that he “HAD NOT YET ATTAINED” to the promise of the “Resurrection of the dead”.

    Php 3:10-14 (11) if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. (12) Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. (13) Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, (14) I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.


    Jesus was rebuking the Jewish religious leaders who failed to see the necessity of the resurrection that is required to fulfill the Abrahamic covenant and the eternal land inheritance. Scriptures are clear that the resurrection of the dead is necessary for the eternal land inheritance promised to Jacob…


    Eze 37:12-25 Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. (13) Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. … (25) Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever.



    And this is where sects like the Jehovah's Witnesses have distorted the scriptures with respect to the true identity of Jesus.
    What I am presenting has nothing to do with the JW. They are a cult and false teachers and have horrible eschatology. Your presenting a straw man… However, the view your presenting is much more in line with the Gnostics who taught a “spiritual” first resurrection and that no kingdom would be established on the material earth…


    When the Bible speaks of Christ being "the first fruits", it's in regard to the resurrection of our Lord's body, but Jesus was born living to begin with. He is the resurrection and people are made alive in him.

    Heretics ignore the fact that Jesus rose from the dead so mankind would have faith. Jesus didn't need to be made alive. He was always living.
    I have no idea what point you are arguing against from what I said… I'm not sure who the “heretic” comment is directed at. If its me, maybe you could show exactly what I said that you would deem me a heretic and cut off from Christ for…. Thanks

  4. #19

    Smile Re: what is the "First Resurrection"

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    This is incorrect, the Sadducees did not believe in a resurrection at all…
    I know they didn't. They were questioning Jesus using the accepted Jewish understanding of the resurrection. Your point that the Sadducees didn't believe in any resurrection is irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    This is not true at all. The Patriarchs were not resurrected “before they died”… Hebrews 11 is clear that the Patriarchs “died in faith having NOT received the promise” but “rejected deliverance in order that they might obtain a better resurrection”.

    Likewise, Paul who was already born again, specifically stated that he “HAD NOT YET ATTAINED” to the promise of the “Resurrection of the dead”.

    Php 3:10-14 (11) if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. (12) Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. (13) Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, (14) I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
    Heb.11 and Phil.3 are referring to the resurrection of believers bodies, where "they neither marry not are given in marriage" Mt.22:30. The bodily resurrection occurs after believers have been resurrected in the sight of God, as Jesus informed the Sadducees in Mt.22:31-32.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    Jesus was rebuking the Jewish religious leaders who failed to see the necessity of the resurrection that is required to fulfill the Abrahamic covenant and the eternal land inheritance. Scriptures are clear that the resurrection of the dead is necessary for the eternal land inheritance promised to Jacob…

    Eze 37:12-25 Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. (13) Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. … (25) Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever.
    Jesus wasn't rebuking the Sadducees. He was answering their pretended question about marriage in the afterlife. Then he told them the Patriarchs had already been resurrected, as God is the God of the living.

    As for Eze.37, believers don't need to be resurrected bodily to know that the Lord is God and "David" is already our Prince forever.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    What I am presenting has nothing to do with the JW. They are a cult and false teachers and have horrible eschatology. Your presenting a straw man… However, the view your presenting is much more in line with the Gnostics who taught a “spiritual” first resurrection and that no kingdom would be established on the material earth…
    it's not Gnosticism. It's the biblical principle of sowing and reaping.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    I have no idea what point you are arguing against from what I said… I'm not sure who the “heretic” comment is directed at. If its me, maybe you could show exactly what I said that you would deem me a heretic and cut off from Christ for…. Thanks
    I was referring to false teaching, which such sects as the JW's have fallen into, that Jesus isn't God because he needed to be made alive.

  5. #20
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    Re: what is the "First Resurrection"

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    This was the mindset of the Sadducees, who only thought of the resurrection with having to do with a persons body. After correcting their misunderstanding about marriage after the bodily resurrection, then our Lord said,

    But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Mt.22:31-32

    In other words, the Patriarchs died living. The were made alive, resurrected, before they died.

    And this is where sects like the Jehovah's Witnesses have distorted the scriptures with respect to the true identity of Jesus.

    When the Bible speaks of Christ being "the first fruits", it's in regard to the resurrection of our Lord's body, but Jesus was born living to begin with. He is the resurrection and people are made alive in him.

    Heretics ignore the fact that Jesus rose from the dead so mankind would have faith. Jesus didn't need to be made alive. He was always living.
    Great post...……………….

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