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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #136
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    Yes, but they were baptised with water. They cannot be used to prove that baptism is optional.

    And the thief on the cross had no chance to be baptised (he did not refuse to be baptised). He was also a bit of a special case.
    I'm not saying baptism is optional. It's not optional. I was just making the point that it is not salvific.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  2. #137
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    You can't get that from the passage. The passage says clearly that he was saved.

    Even Roman Catholics, who view baptism as inherently salvific, put him in the category of "baptism of desire."

    And your theology of "the Kingdom" is very strange.
    Yea... the thief was asking for mercy. He was asking in a way similar to the prodigal son. Jesus answered his heart cry. Also, Jesus didn't refer to a "kingdom to come". He preached about a kingdom that was nigh. It's one we enter into when we submit to Him. There is a kingdom to come. But we can enter into His kingdom now, for He gladly gives the kingdom to those who ask for it.

    Oh, and another person I would refer to concerning whether baptism is salvific or not is the publican (tax collector) who would not lift his head, but standing a long way off said "God be merciful to me a sinner". That man went home justified. None of this of course, means baptism is optional. It's not. But neither is it salvific.

    God bless!
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  3. #138
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    I don't know where you're getting any of this, but it's not from me. Christ WAS the reason they were willing to be baptized and as result suffer persecution even unto death. Who is that the case for today?
    Maybe I misunderstood? You said this:
    Baptism was necessary for salvation because it was a matter of faith, but not so much any more because baptism no longer requires faith for most.
    That is very confusing to me because I still see Water Baptism as a Faith Ritual. I don't believe the ritual somehow causes us to be immersed in God's Presence, but I do believe it is a public expression of our decision to follow Christ. As such, it is an expression of *what we believe!*

    You are saying that at one time Water Baptism was indeed a Faith Ritual, and that today it is so "no longer." That confuses me!

    And so, for me Water Baptism always was and still is a Faith Ritual. Your idea that the "Faith" part can come and go with time appears to make the ritual itself the product of Faith. As the Ritual erodes, so does Faith.

    But since Christ is the true object of our Faith, and not the Ritual, Faith can never be removed, whether in the Ritual of Water Baptism or without it. Over time, Water Baptism must still be a Faith Ritual because Christ himself can never go away!

    I'm probably not understanding your point too well? I did look up your link, but that seems to deal with the Sin Nature and Pelagianism. And that's another subject entirely. You'd have to tie the issues in your link with what you're claiming here about Water Baptism, Rituals, and Faith.

  4. #139
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    That makes more sense. And I completely understand that you'd never remember not being Christian.
    I appreciate your understanding. All I have is my personal history, and I'm sort of just "hanging it out there." I'm not proud of being raised a Lutheran. But I am proud of being raised a Christian, even if it was a very weak form of Christianity. I'm extremely delighted that God was kind enough one day to begin sharing more "Pentecostal" truths with me! The presence of the Holy Spirit bowled me over! I'll never turn away from that.

  5. #140

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    I'm not saying baptism is optional.
    My apologies. The main purpose of this thread seems to be to argue that it is.

  6. #141

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    Yes, but they were baptised with water. They cannot be used to prove that baptism is optional.

    And the thief on the cross had no chance to be baptised (he did not refuse to be baptised). He was also a bit of a special case.
    brother don't forget that well before he was on the cross next to Jesus ....the bible says this

    John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
    **Mark‬ *1:4-5‬ *KJV‬‬


    there is a great chance the thief on the cross had been baptized for the remission of sin beforehand as most of the region was. There's no reason to think he wasn't baptized in water.

  7. #142

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    I think you're confusing baptism of the Spirit and water baptism here. Many have and still do.

    um .... No I'm positive I'm not . If you simply look at the verse you quoted , you see he says " be baptized for the remission of sins ......and then you will receive the Holy Ghost ?

    what do you suppose baptism of the spirit is bro ? It's when one receives the Holy Ghost . It has nothing to do with remission of sin , that's what water baptism is . Try this other place

    While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
    **Acts‬ *10:42-45, 47-48‬ *KJV‬‬


    surely Peter says " who can forbid water and then commands baptism into Jesus name for remission of sins...

    there's a difference between being baptized in water for the remission of sins ....and receiving the Holy Spirit. Both are always exhibited whether in the first example you rejected, in the above example where Peter specifically says " who can forbid them water ...they've received the Holy Ghost like us? " his first command then is be baptized in water....same thing he told the Jews in chapter two.


    same exact thing that the apostle Paul did , he first received the Holy Spirit through Ananias prayer and laying his hands on Paul ....then the first move was baptism for Paul before Paul ever preChes a word

    And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

    here is Paul explaining this later the reason for his baptism once again for the remission of sins or washing away of sins

    And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

    There's no change in water baptisms function it will forever be an act of faith , that a believer does , because we believe that it is for the remission of sins...or we believe it is for forgiveness ...washing away of our sins ...cleansing of our sin debt before God and most importantly according to his own word , his own design for yes , salvation

    And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
    **Mark‬ *16:15-16‬ *KJV‬‬


    it's basic Christian , fundamental doctrine why is this even a discussion ? Who comes up with the idea that what Jesus said isn't correct or informed ? Or what all his apostles taught clearly isn't correct or informed ?

    we get baptized in water for a single purpose , because we believe what God has said we get baptized for ....it's an act of faith , that offers the pledge of a clear conscience toward God, through the death of Jesus Christ , it is what Gods word says ....I guess I'm different I'm interested in what the scripture teaches about biblical subjects . And discussing those things

  8. #143
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    You can't get that from the passage. The passage says clearly that he was saved.

    Even Roman Catholics, who view baptism as inherently salvific, put him in the category of "baptism of desire."

    And your theology of "the Kingdom" is very strange.
    We must have different Bibles then. This is what our Lord said. See if you can spot the word "saved", or if it is an addition by you.

    "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43)

    Both Matthew 12:40 and Ephesians 4:9 say that our Lord FIRST DESCENDED, remained "in the heart of the earth" for three days and nights, and then rose. Upon rising He is met my the woman and He warns them not to touch Him because He had not YET ascended to His Father. So if our Lord Jesus says "Today" you will be with me in Paradise, then Paradise is "in the heart of the earth". It is a PLACE for the souls of those who die with faith in Jesus. Our Lord Jesus EXITED Paradise after three days. Paradise has almost nothing to do with being saved. Being saved means that you avoid a situation which would have harmed you greatly.

    Perish the day I use the Catholic doctrine for anything. I was a practicing Roman Catholic for 28 years, and would not touch anything of their's again - especially their doctrine. "Baptism of Desire"? What is this?

    If my doctrine of the Kingdom is strange or not, I cannot comment till you tell me what is strange. God made man to rule the earth (Gen.1:26-28). Men fell and this rule, still by men, was dictated by an angel, Lucifer, called by our Lord Jesus, "Prince of this world". God raised Israel to rule a choice piece of earth by His Laws - and Israel refused. Then God raised up Jesus Christ to be the new King of the earth in due time. Daniel predicts that God's Kingdom, led by "a stone not cut out with hands" would set up an everlasting and universal Kingdom ON EARTH. The delay in setting up this Kingdom is that God wanted "THEM" (plural) to rule the earth, so our Lord Jesus is building an Ekklesia (gathering of the called-out ones) from which He will take co-kings (plural). During this time, our Lord Jesus waits in heaven. Then, when the Church is complete, Jesus will return to earth, rip away rulership from the present evil Gentiles, and set up His Kingdom ON EARTH. The men and women who rule with our Lord Jesus ON EARTH (Lk.19:17-19) will must be BORN into the Royal Family of God by rebirth (Jn.3:3), and then be hand picked because of their WORKS. The first WORK is Baptism (Jn.3:5). And in every case it is connected with Faith in Jesus and is done as fast as possible.

    Anything strange with this? Or is it what the Bible reveals?

  9. #144

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I've followed the answers to this thread, and again I am amazed. On the one hand we have the contingent that settles for a meaningless Christian ritual and on the far side, those who (rightly) say that we have to do it because it is ordered by the Lord. In the previous thread on Baptism, I outlined Baptism as it pertains to three of the four aspects of salvation. Then I outlined the principle of any man chosen by God to walk through and bury his past in water. Then I outlined the reasons by Colossians 2 showed Baptism to be the new circumcision. They were met with (i) silence, (ii) dismissal, and /or confusion. Here in this thread, the same old - same old is regurgitated. So now I will ask a question to all the dismissers of Baptism. Note the grammar of Romans 6:4-5;

    4 "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"


    Verse 4 starts with "therefore". Thus, it is the conclusion of verse 3 which states; "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" The use of the phrase "so many" IMPLIES that not all would do it. That is also why the verses starts with "Know ye not". The writer is challenging those who refuse it. And the reason MOMENTOUS!
    Verse 4 says that "we" (the many of verse 3) who obey to being IMMERSED, will walk a different walk than before our Baptism. Baptism is the ending of the old walk and the empowering to walk a new walk. Noah walked a certain walk before the flood, and it was no doubt very difficult. AS he came out of the flood, the old was gone and his walk was much different.
    Verse 5 is even more drastic. It starts with "FOR IF". Again the word "IF" indicates that not all would be obedient. But now the CONSEQUENCES are decisive. Verse 5 goes on to say that if we have not been Baptized, or planted in death, like Christ WE CANNOT BE RAISED LIKE HIM! This is sobering. John confirms this in 1st John 3:1-9. WE will be "like Him (Jesus) when He comes, but the surrounding verses all call for way of life. The resurrection of the Church is likened to stars in 1st Corinthians 15:40-41 ...

    40 "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
    41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."

    ... AND THERE ARE DIFFERING GLORIES PREDICTED AMONG THE STARS! I tell you, not all Christians will be "LIKE Christ" in resurrection! There will be DIFFERING GLORIES. And what makes this crucial??? Christ's Body is the prototype for entering the Kingdom. As the glories of the individual Christian's bodies start to vary from Christ's, there will come a point where the body is NOT FIT for the Kingdom. In The parables of the Kingdom, SOME SERVANTS make it into the joy of the Lord when He comes in His Kingdom, and SOME SERVANTS don't. In one case it was not using one's Talent (Matt.25). In another case it was not using one's Pound (Lk.19). In another case it was disobedience (Matt.7). In another case it was lack of extra oil, not in the Lamp, but in the vessel. And here in Romans 6 I propose that without Baptism you CANNOT be raised from the dead LIKE Christ - MAKING YOUR BODY UNFIT FOR THE KINGDOM!

    According to the verses above in Romans Chapter 6, Baptism is CRUCIAL for being LIKE Christ in resurrection, and being LIKE Christ in resurrection is CRUCIAL for entering the Kingdom. Woe to the rebel Christian who downplays Baptism!

    amen bro it is according to scripture when we take out all the noise of opinion ...an essential basic Christian doctrine. And is thoroughly explained in the scriptures and never needs to be magically explained as meaning things other than what is taught .


    people don't get what happened in the beginning.

    God created the heavens and earth all life forms , arranged the day and night darkness and light , the skies and waters , the lands and boundaries ...and then man and all things were very good.

    God then told Adam the truth about an important , life or death subject ....and then the other guy comes and says " hey ...psst....did God really say that? ....surely it's not like he said , surely you won't die , the fruit isn't poison for you....

    you have what God has said which is life. It's always going to be true , right , the absolute infallible way things are going to be , is whatever God the creator says . We have to grasp,it , Adam and Eve didn't she listened to the other guy , he listened to her ....and Gods word was rejected. That is the only power the enemy has over mankind , that one plot , " you heard what God said ....but instead listen to my idea , surely there's a better way , a different way , his way isn't what we need to grasp"


    it is the flaw of mankind to hear Gods word , and then go look for an answer .....

  10. #145

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't know what you're trying to say to me? I've never said there's any more than one Gospel message. Adding baptism to that message or taking baptism away from that message does not alter the message. Baptism is not part of the message of Salvation. Baptism is not the Gospel.

    1 Cor 1.17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel.

    wow brother you go really far sometimes trying to back up a bad argument....

  11. #146
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    brother don't forget that well before he was on the cross next to Jesus ....the bible says this

    John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
    **Mark‬ *1:4-5‬ *KJV‬‬


    there is a great chance the thief on the cross had been baptized for the remission of sin beforehand as most of the region was. There's no reason to think he wasn't baptized in water.
    1. The Baptism needed is the one in Jesus's Name (Act.2:38). That was only instituted AFTER His resurrection.
    2. The order is (i) REPENT, (ii) BELIEVE, and only then (iii) be Baptized

    There is no way that the criminal crucified next to our Lord Jesus could have been Baptized. Even if John's Baptism was valid, is it likely that a man so lawless as to receive the death penalty, would have obeyed John? Why, just minutes before his conversion he was also mocking Jesus.

    "The thieves (plural) also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth" (Matthew 27:44)

  12. #147
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    amen bro it is according to scripture when we take out all the noise of opinion ...an essential basic Christian doctrine. And is thoroughly explained in the scriptures and never needs to be magically explained as meaning things other than what is taught .


    people don't get what happened in the beginning.

    God created the heavens and earth all life forms , arranged the day and night darkness and light , the skies and waters , the lands and boundaries ...and then man and all things were very good.

    God then told Adam the truth about an important , life or death subject ....and then the other guy comes and says " hey ...psst....did God really say that? ....surely it's not like he said , surely you won't die , the fruit isn't poison for you....

    you have what God has said which is life. It's always going to be true , right , the absolute infallible way things are going to be , is whatever God the creator says . We have to grasp,it , Adam and Eve didn't she listened to the other guy , he listened to her ....and Gods word was rejected. That is the only power the enemy has over mankind , that one plot , " you heard what God said ....but instead listen to my idea , surely there's a better way , a different way , his way isn't what we need to grasp"


    it is the flaw of mankind to hear Gods word , and then go look for an answer .....
    Amen to this. You might have followed the thread brother, but I have been attacked for that posting - mostly without a counter-argument. Even if we don't understand Baptism (as most new converts don't) it is a COMMAND. It is NOT OPTIONAL. How will any Christian end when he/she can't keep the very first command after their conversion? If they are rebels from the beginning, what will be the end?

  13. #148

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Yea... the thief was asking for mercy. He was asking in a way similar to the prodigal son. Jesus answered his heart cry. Also, Jesus didn't refer to a "kingdom to come". He preached about a kingdom that was nigh. It's one we enter into when we submit to Him. There is a kingdom to come. But we can enter into His kingdom now, for He gladly gives the kingdom to those who ask for it.

    Oh, and another person I would refer to concerning whether baptism is salvific or not is the publican (tax collector) who would not lift his head, but standing a long way off said "God be merciful to me a sinner". That man went home justified. None of this of course, means baptism is optional. It's not. But neither is it salvific.

    God bless!
    how is it not brother mark?

    And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
    **Mark‬ *16:15-16‬ *KJV‬‬


    Am I mistaken on the meaning of the word salvific? I think sometimes we read things elsewhere and form belief , but when Jesus the savior makes a point .....doesn't he say his words shall stand and it will remain the same forever?


    The second part of that verse , doesn't say " whoever believes and is. It baptized shall be damned " but whoever doesn't believe shall be damned "

    I think honestly unless there is some unforeseen circumstance where baptism is not possible or something happens like a tragedy or what not , it sort of is directly connected to salvation , only according tomjesus Christ the Lords words who alone offers salvation....why is no one saying " baptism is for the remission of sins and is the only act a believer does that involves remission of sins ? It is taught before the cross and after the cross that way ...

    if baptism is for the remission of sins, through baptizing us into the death of Christ like scripture says , then it makes sense why a believer would gladly get baptized ..... Probably better to be on the safe side , while never forgetting God is willing to save us , not willing to reject us because of a technicality ...I would however say ......scripture teaches baptism , to be a basic , essential command of the gospel , which has very deep roots in the epistles of Paul touching many subjects , and much of his doctrinal language. Regarding dying with Christ and living a new life to God. It's actually a pretty fundamental peice of doctrine in the n.t. Even has prophecies regarding John the Baptist ...


    did anyone know that John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost ....from his own birth ...and has a very distinct function in the doctrine between the o.t. And new....


    a lot of the discussion about baptism can be settled , looking into John the Baptist and everything the prophets and gospel says of him....and his purpose and ministry ....it's quite astounding his importance...

  14. #149

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Amen to this. You might have followed the thread brother, but I have been attacked for that posting - mostly without a counter-argument. Even if we don't understand Baptism (as most new converts don't) it is a COMMAND. It is NOT OPTIONAL. How will any Christian end when he/she can't keep the very first command after their conversion? If they are rebels from the beginning, what will be the end?

    brother its been the subtle ones trap from Eden , but we were warned

    “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
    **2 Timothy‬ *4:2-4‬ *KJV‬‬


    I'm so glad for Gods word , that he has made it available on every corner of every continent , in every language , printed word for word so that anyone who wants to know what God has said about matters like baptism, salvation, repentance, obedience, everything Christians believe is written down clearly and repetitively.....it is the sword of the spirit to hear and accept his word.


    I love what your point there is if God says to do something .....why do we then even need to understand the functions and things , why wouldn't we who are mere men , simply believe and obey God , who is certainly going to know better than us....but we grow...


    baptism seems important to actually understand its purpose , because that is where the clearing of the conscience comes forth. The pledge from God that if we get baptized , our sins are remitted ....I didn't know this at my own baptism like you said there, but then again , I felt guilty still for sins long behind me , sometimes terribly heavy was the wieght ....eventually I learned myself what Jesus said about baptism , what Paul taught it's depths to be pertaining to several subjects, that Peter explained as he does straight forward " it's for the remission of sins" then I began to understand Christianity....the atonement God has made for us , what has actually been done .

    I began to experience the things the scriptures promise , along side those doctrines the scriptures teach , and the value of just simply learning what's written and letting that form our thoughts and views....since I learned baptisms meaning , I wish so much I know then what it meant it would have saved me a lot of grief, and a lot of days stuck in sin and guilt if I really knew the power of his death and resurrection ...

  15. #150

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    1. The Baptism needed is the one in Jesus's Name (Act.2:38). That was only instituted AFTER His resurrection.
    2. The order is (i) REPENT, (ii) BELIEVE, and only then (iii) be Baptized

    There is no way that the criminal crucified next to our Lord Jesus could have been Baptized. Even if John's Baptism was valid, is it likely that a man so lawless as to receive the death penalty, would have obeyed John? Why, just minutes before his conversion he was also mocking Jesus.

    "The thieves (plural) also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth" (Matthew 27:44)

    no brother ....no. Johns baptism is the same baptism based on Jesus Christ , the o key difference is his name was declared after his death. The thief on the cross was baptized for the remission of sins ...<<<<<<< that is what is needed , after his resurrection he gave the command to baptize in his name , the purpose remains the same , it's for remission of sins see acts 2:38 ....Jesus name , the thief on the cross inderstood who Jesus was , like any other Christian , he was baptized in water for the remission of sins , and took upon him the name of Jesus Christ ...


    see , I know you will understand this one point " the only thing that remits sin is this

    “For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
    **Matthew‬ *26:28‬ *KJV‬‬


    John the Baptist , was part ofmjesus ministry always the prophets foretold him, Jesus explained this , John was also preaching Jesus beforehand bro...remember he kept saying one will come after me ..he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost"

    John preached repentance and remission of sin, baptizing them in water for remission. He wasn't preaching Jesus name , because it had not been declared ...but he did point Jesus out and tell everyone this is the guy right here , this is the Christ I've been preaching to you.


    the thief , fills both water requirement for remission, and faith through believing in Jesus Christ the son of God. It's about the purpose of baptism , whether before the cross baptism for the remission of sin or after for the remission of sin. Those who were baptized of John, couldn't receive the Holy Spirit , that's the only difference , it goes to show again . One must be born of water and spirit.

    one must be baptized into the death of Jesus Christ for remission of sins by water and one must receive the Holy Spirit through faith in hearing the gospel and believing. It doesn't matter if we get baptized first and then receive the Holy Ghost , or receive the Holy Ghost first and then get baptized for remission of sin. It happens both ways more than once, to both gentile and Jew. But always water baptism for the remission of sins , is present and receiving the Holy Ghost through faith is present . There's no occasion where a person receives the Holy Ghost and is taught baptism isn't necessary...both re always present .

    It's sort of like saying anyone who died before Jesus was crucified , thier sins weren't remitted because they were baptized for the remission of sins ...by John the Baptist , sent as the one to prepare the people through the remission of sins ....for the messiah ..( see johns bitprth and the prophecies spoken over him by the Angel Gabriel , and his father ....see Malachi 3-4 and the prophecies in Isaiah concerning the voice crying in the desert....


    johns baptism , Jesus name . The thief was born of water and spirit...

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