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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #166
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Were you born more than once?
    No ... so what is your point ...
    ***
    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

    Psalms 25:5
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  2. #167
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    So is for infants also???
    Are children excluded from the covenant?

  3. #168
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    To assume that Paul didn't share the Gospel with that household would be unwise IMO.
    Where did I assume that he didn't share it with the household ... I am asking about infants ... young children ...
    ***
    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

    Psalms 25:5
    ***

  4. #169
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    No ... so what is your point ...

    Where did I assume that he didn't share it with the household ... I am asking about infants ... young children ...
    I don't want to discuss things that the scriptures are silent on. It never works out. And I don't see one biblical example of an infant being baptized in scripture , or that it should be done.

  5. #170
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    No ... so what is your point ...
    So why baptize more than once.

  6. #171
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Are children excluded from the covenant?
    I am asking you ...
    ***
    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

    Psalms 25:5
    ***

  7. #172
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    I am asking you ...
    Never .

  8. #173
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    To assume that Paul didn't share the Gospel with that household would be unwise IMO.
    Yep, actually it says it directly :

    Then Paul and Silas spoke the word of the Lord to him and to everyone in his house [...] And without delay, he and all his household were baptized. (Acts 16)
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

  9. #174
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Yep, actually it says it directly :

    Then Paul and Silas spoke the word of the Lord to him and to everyone in his house [...] And without delay, he and all his household were baptized. (Acts 16)
    Thanks to you Aviyah.

  10. #175
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    (1) You don't get to Paradise without being saved.



    (2) And yet, on baptism, you're even more extreme than the Roman Catholics are. They at least accept that some people can be saved without physical water baptism.
    (1) I'll agree with you, but I bet you can't show scripture for that. There's a reason for my request for scripture. Here then is my question to you. God has a Covenant with Israel. They are His special people. The prophets prophesy a great restoration for Israel and our Lord Jesus came and offered this Kingdom to Israel. Now, at the time of Jesus's birth, dozens of Israeli children under two years old were slaughtered through no fault of their own. Where do they go at death - with scripture please?

    (2) If you read through all my postings, in this thread, and in the other current one on Baptism, you will find NOT a single statement, sentence or even an allusion to Baptism being the agent of salvation. This idea has sprung out the minds of my opponents, for when I ask them to show me such a statement, they are unable to. So would you be unable to find such a statement. What has happened is that a bunch of Christians who believe that being saved means going to heaven, cannot fathom what Baptism is for and ignore all the evidence in scripture about it. Then I come along and say that man is not destined for heaven, and that BESIDES salvation, he has dealings with God about (i) whether he will get to inherit the earth, or, (ii) whether he gets to be a co-king with Jesus when He returns and sets up His Kingdom on earth. You can imagine the confusion. I have shown SIX things about Baptism FROM THE SCRIPTURES and they almost EXCLUSIVELY deal with the INHERITANCE of the Christian.

    My opponents can't fathom this because for them it is the Kingdom IN Heaven, not "the Kingdom (out) OF Heaven". They all have Bibles like mine, with nearly 1,200 Chapters revealing God, His Son Jesus and His plan with man. But their teachers have fed them a ONE CHAPTER BIBLE where the believers go to heaven at death and the unbelievers go to hell. With this incorrect and stunted vision of God, His Son and His Plan, there IS NO ROOM FOR BAPTISM. It is a mystery. It is a "suggestion". It is "not necessary". The solution to this mystery is easy. Sit down and do two things:
    1. Try to find two verses that say Christians go to heaven at death
    2. Read EVERY mention of Baptism, including all the cases of something/someone passing through or buried in water

    The time taken will be well spent. God made man FOR THE EARTH. God cannot fail. There is no small percentage of the world's population that stagger dusty and bloody through the Pearly Gates. This His high treason for a Christian. To think and say that Satan thwarted God's plan in Genesis 1:26-28 is a deep insult to the ALL-MIGHTY. The Bible starts with the earth made pristine for man, and though there is much opposition to God by His creature, the Bible ends with the same earth made pristine for resurrected man. At the close of the Bible we have a City that shows God's plan for the earth consummated. It comes down to earth. It is made of Christ, with Christians as the Walls and with Israel as the Gates. And outside of it are the nations - some in the Lake of Fire and some not. And the Christians will rule the earth for ever (Rev.22:5).

    And it is with THIS MATTER that Baptism comes into view. It has nothing to do with keeping a man out of the Lake of Fire. It has nothing to do with a rebirth by the Holy Spirit. It has nothing to do with a man receiving eternal life. These are things that ca only be had by FAITH. But when we come to the REASON WHY WE ARE SAVED, then Baptism is crucial.
    1. Every man that will inherit either the Land of the earth must pass through a flood. Noah, Abraham, Israel and the Church are called for this
    2. Every man who is made a son of Abraham must be circumcised if he is to inherit the Land (Gal.3:29). Circumcision "by hands" is enough to inherit Canaan but to inherit the earth the whole man must be buried in death waters WITH CHRIST (Col.2:11-12)
    3. Every man who wants a clear conscience wherewith to serve God must be buried in water (1st Pet.3:20-21)
    4. Every man who wants to be like Christ in resurrection must be Baptized (Rom.6:1-5)
    5. Every Christian who wants to receive the Holy Spirit like the disciples did at Pentecost must be Baptized (Act.2:38)
    6. Every Christian who wants to ENTER the Kingdom spoken of above must go into water and come out of it (Jn.3:5)
    7. Every Christian who wants to enter the Kingdom must be OBEDIENT to God's commands (Matt.7:21). The very first command given to a Christian is, "why tarry ye. Be Baptized!" If a Christian cannot carry out this simple and painless command he has disqualified himself fr the Kingdom. The Kingdom will be made of men who are OBEDIENT, otherwise the Lord's Kingdom will soon slide into disrepute

    Radical? No. I saw that God man for the earth. Christ will soon leave heaven and return to earth. The prophets from Moses to John the Apostle predict that God will set up an everlasting Kingdom on this earth. And a special Man will be given ALL AUTHORITY. Other men are in such a fallen state that to qualify for this Kingdom they must go through a comprehensive change. Baptism shows these various aspects and shows that the OLD IS USELESS FOR GOD'S PURPOSE AND MUST BE BURIED IN DEATH WATERS. Any man who disagrees with that is not fit to rule with Christ for Christ Himself, though He had no sin or sins, ORDERED JOHN BAPTIST TO BURY HIM IN WATER. Did our Lord Jesus have to be saved? Perish the thought! But was Jesus from Mary - and Mary from Adam? YES! What of Adam will inherit the earth? NOTHING. Adam's name, flesh, blood and lineage IS NOT FIT TO RULE. IT MUST DIE AND BE RAISED IN CHRIST. And Baptism is the "sign" for that just as circumcision is a "sign" for Abraham and his seed (Rom.4:11) - A SIGN THAT WAS THE SEAL OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. Is it a wonder that when John Baptist didn't want to immerse Jesus that our Lord said to John, "Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him" (Matt.3:15)

    Think about it.

  11. #176
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    Jesus's disciples baptised (John 4:2).



    Say what? John was filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb (Luke 1:15). He recognised Jesus before he was even born (Luke 1:41).



    He was in prison at the time (Matthew 11:2).
    I will just answer what I made bold.

    Man, among others, has two major problems. They are;
    1. He is barred from the Tree of Life
    2. He was given a commission to rule the earth and to bring the Garden of Eden to order

    (1) If man had eaten from the Tree of Life the fruit would have gone INTO him and mingled with him. When we eat anything it mingles itself with us and a few hours later you cannot find that fruit but it has become SUSTENANCE for the man. Man has human life, but to be in the image and likeness of God he must possess God's Life. So even Adam, before the fall, was not equipped to be like God to display Him. So once sin and sins were put away Christ returned as the Spirit and breathed Himself INTO His disciples (Jn.20:22). At this moment they received the divine LIFE INWARDLY. God mingled His life with Believers. The disciples were "filled" withe Holy Spirit. The Greek word is "Pleroo" meaning "to fill up like a bucket is full of water. The water is INSIDE the bucket.

    (2) Man is made lower than the angels (Psalm 8:5, Hebrews 2:7-9). Thus, for a man to cast out the Serpent from the Garden, he woud need POWER over and above that of an angel. This POWER is only to be had by God. So for the warfare of Ephesians 6, and the building of the Garden of Fellowship - the Church, man must have POWER from the holy Spirit. So our Lord Jesus told His disciples to wait in Jerusalem for POWER (Lk.24:49; Act.1:8). After 50 days they were IMMERSED in the Holy Spirit for POWER. The Greek word for "filled" in Acts 2:4 is "pletho" meaning "to furnish" or "to equip". It can also mean "full of" but it is in the sense of a boy playing in a mud-pool. He ends up full of mud outwardly on his clothes and skin. It's main meaning is of a policeman getting his uniform on. The policeman is "furnished" with a uniform for POWER - the POWER of the government.

    Thus, for God's purpose there are TWO "fillings" of the Holy Spirit. One for (inner) LIFE and one for (outward) POWER. The prophets of old, even Balaam's donkey, received only the OUTWARD Holy Spirit to write the inspired record. They either wrote BY the Spirit, or the Spirit was UPON them. The INNER receiving of the Holy Spirit was only available after Christ's resurrection (Jn.7:39). John Baptist was not born again, but he had the OUTWARD Spirit. Luke 1:15 correctly reads; "For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be FURNISHED (pletho - Gk.) with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb." So also Elizabeth in verse 41. It is "pletho" - FURNISHED.


    The Holy Spirit that Baptism authorizes is also the second one. Just like the boy playing in mud, we are IMMERSED, or Baptized in the Holy Spirit. It is for POWER to build the Church and make war.

  12. #177
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    So let's open up a can of worms ... what if you were baptised as an infant ... even some Protestant churches do this such as the Lutheran Church ...
    I volunteer. There are no worms. The Roman Catholic Church taught infant Baptism because they saw the relationship to circumcision (which most fundamentals don't). When the Reformation came, the Reformers were busy with other important matters and did not question ALL of Roman Catholicism. They merely took over this unscriptural tradition, just like the funny clothes that the so-called clergy wear. The order that scripture gives after the Lord's resurrection is;
    1. REPENT (admit your failure and turn 180)
    2. BELIEVE in a Savior Who put away your sins
    3. BE IMMERSED or Baptized in Jesus's Name
    4. RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT for POWER

    You'd think it was simple, but this thread shows (i) the resistance to OBEDIENCE to God's commands, and (ii) the huge lack of understanding concerning Baptism. Hebrews says that such discussions are a sign that we are "babes" in Christ (Heb.5:11 - 6:3).

  13. #178
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    (1) I'll agree with you, but I bet you can't show scripture for that. There's a reason for my request for scripture. Here then is my question to you. God has a Covenant with Israel. They are His special people. The prophets prophesy a great restoration for Israel and our Lord Jesus came and offered this Kingdom to Israel. Now, at the time of Jesus's birth, dozens of Israeli children under two years old were slaughtered through no fault of their own. Where do they go at death - with scripture please?

    (2) If you read through all my postings, in this thread, and in the other current one on Baptism, you will find NOT a single statement, sentence or even an allusion to Baptism being the agent of salvation. This idea has sprung out the minds of my opponents, for when I ask them to show me such a statement, they are unable to.
    This is somewhat misleading. To say those who oppose your doctrine are unable to show your belief in Baptismal Regeneration implies that this is the major issue with those like myself, who see in your beliefs a kind of elitism, beyond a simple differentiation of rewards. You actually place people with superior works in a completely different category than those with inferior works. You place your "elite" in the Millennial Kingdom, ruling and reigning with Christ, whereas the rest are placed in a different place entirely.

    I've told you this a number of times, and have not failed to expose your teaching on this. And why would you? That's what you believe!

    So others may view your "elitist" theology as a form of Baptismal Regeneration, but that isn't what I've been opposing. On the other hand, your view of elitist Christians ruling in the Kingdom of God, to the exclusion of others, based on *Baptism,* does sound very much like a form of Baptismal Regeneration. But I take your word that it is not. And I do appreciate that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    And it is with THIS MATTER that Baptism comes into view. It has nothing to do with keeping a man out of the Lake of Fire. It has nothing to do with a rebirth by the Holy Spirit. It has nothing to do with a man receiving eternal life. These are things that ca only be had by FAITH. But when we come to the REASON WHY WE ARE SAVED, then Baptism is crucial.
    Baptism has "nothing to do with a rebirth by the Holy Spirit?" John the Baptist said his Water Baptism was reflective of Christ's Spirit Baptism, which I believe refers to Salvation.

  14. #179
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This is somewhat misleading. To say those who oppose your doctrine are unable to show your belief in Baptismal Regeneration implies that this is the major issue with those like myself, who see in your beliefs a kind of elitism, beyond a simple differentiation of rewards. You actually place people with superior works in a completely different category than those with inferior works. You place your "elite" in the Millennial Kingdom, ruling and reigning with Christ, whereas the rest are placed in a different place entirely.

    I've told you this a number of times, and have not failed to expose your teaching on this. And why would you? That's what you believe!

    So others may view your "elitist" theology as a form of Baptismal Regeneration, but that isn't what I've been opposing. On the other hand, your view of elitist Christians ruling in the Kingdom of God, to the exclusion of others, based on *Baptism,* does sound very much like a form of Baptismal Regeneration. But I take your word that it is not. And I do appreciate that.



    Baptism has "nothing to do with a rebirth by the Holy Spirit?" John the Baptist said his Water Baptism was reflective of Christ's Spirit Baptism, which I believe refers to Salvation.
    The word "Elite" is yours. I said that what qualifies a man for the Kingdom is;
    1. His rebirth - that he may SEE the Kingdom (Jn.3:3). Moses "SAW" the Kingdom of Israel but cold not enter. To SEE the Millennial Kingdom one would have to be resurrected. 1st Corinthians 15:23 promises this, irrespective of WORKS
    2. His Baptism - that he may ENTER the Kingdom (Jn.3:5)
    3. An intimate walk with Jesus - that we may "know" Him and be "known" of Him (Matt.7:23; Phil.3:10)
    4. The saint's righteousness - his dispositional righteousness (Matt.5:20)
    5. The saint's willingness to deny his soul and carry his cross daily (Matt.16:24-28)
    6. The saint's willingness to "buy" extra oil for his "vessel" in his lifetime (not his Lamp - Matt.25:9)
    7. The saint's sense of duty when endowed with talents for building the Church (Matt.25:21-23)
    8. The saint's treatment of other saints (Matt.24:44-51)

    Now, if you think that saints who, at great personal cost and diligence to God's commands, are an "Elite" - well, I grant you your appreciation of the matter. But, for the record, I call it OVERCOMING. It is not I who teaches that a section of Christianity make it into the Millennial Kingdom and a section who don't. It is the Bible that teaches this. I only report what the Bible says. If you don't like it, or it makes you scared, why, then start "striving". Luke 13:20-28 says;

    20 "And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God?
    ...
    24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
    ...
    28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out."


    You say they are "Elite" - scripture calls them "strivers". You call them "Elite" - scripture calls them "Overcomers". The Kingdom is a REWARD. God, in His Word, sets forth the kingdom as a REWARD. Be mercenary - and please God.

  15. #180
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The word "Elite" is yours. I said that what qualifies a man for the Kingdom is;
    1. His rebirth - that he may SEE the Kingdom (Jn.3:3). Moses "SAW" the Kingdom of Israel but cold not enter. To SEE the Millennial Kingdom one would have to be resurrected. 1st Corinthians 15:23 promises this, irrespective of WORKS
    2. His Baptism - that he may ENTER the Kingdom (Jn.3:5)
    3. An intimate walk with Jesus - that we may "know" Him and be "known" of Him (Matt.7:23; Phil.3:10)
    4. The saint's righteousness - his dispositional righteousness (Matt.5:20)
    5. The saint's willingness to deny his soul and carry his cross daily (Matt.16:24-28)
    6. The saint's willingness to "buy" extra oil for his "vessel" in his lifetime (not his Lamp - Matt.25:9)
    7. The saint's sense of duty when endowed with talents for building the Church (Matt.25:21-23)
    8. The saint's treatment of other saints (Matt.24:44-51)
    Only 8 requirements to entering the kingdom?
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

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