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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #301
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Originally Posted by znpaaneah

    James says that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered up Isaac. You can say that it was Abraham's faith that God would raise Isaac that justified him, but without the action of offering up Isaac his claim to having "saving faith" would be dead. Faith without works is dead.

    You say you have saving faith in Jesus, that should be expressed in your works, without it your claim is empty.

    Likewise, concerning this thread -- you claim that your faith that Jesus is Lord is what saves you, but if you have this faith you should obey what Jesus says. Since He tells you to believe and be baptized your obedience is the work that expresses your faith. Otherwise your claim that you believe Jesus is Lord is empty.
    Empty?

    Was Cornelius belief empty (Acts 10) while he was not yet baptized by man?

    Was Paul's belief empty during the days he was not yet baptized by Ananias (Acts 9)??
    Originally Posted by znpaaneah

    "Who can be baptized" -- Slug1

    You need to confess your sins, repent, and believe that Jesus' death redeems you.




    Z, at the bottom right of any post is the button for "Reply with Quote." If your click that first, the response box that pops up to reply in, will have the post you are responding to in a quoted "box." Will help you put.

    As for your answer to the question, it is a breath of fresh air that an answer is given and is direct in answering the question. Most do all but answer

    YES, man cannot baptize a person until AFTER Jesus has made the person Born-Again (justified/redeemed). How does mankind KNOW that Jesus has accomplished this? When any person believes and proclaims faith in Jesus, declaring Him Savior/Lord, then we, as leaders who disciple and lead in the Body, are allowed to then baptize a person whom Jesus has redeemed.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  2. #302
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Honestly, due to experience is common knowledge of scripture that the one baptism unto salvation is done by Jesus. The water baptism done by man is a "symbol" of the work that Jesus completed through His death/resurrection (dying and coming up alive) and by the "act" of a water baptism, this is an act we do to symbolize we too, do as Christ did.



    A water baptism to symbolize one is as Christ.



    Because He was resurrected.



    To symbolize what Jesus and the Holy Spirit has done.



    This is about the empowerment that the Holy Spirit provides to Christians (boldness and supernatural spiritual power).



    So the Body can do what God needs for them to do that is miraculous (proof God is in the work being done). Man can't produce ANY fruit without the power of the Holy Spirit. Throughout scripture this is also referred to anointing.



    Because the first act of faith, having secured water, new Christians can execute this first act of faith. Those who disciple (church leadership) teach and provide(equip) means to BE faithful.



    Just to ensure: Mt 20v22 Jesus answered, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am to drink?” They said to him, “We are able.”



    The term has many meanings... in a post prior to someone else, I posted where the term is utilized in reference of the Baptism that Jesus does unto salvation.



    The answer to this is in the next verse.



    That only the one that SAVES a person, the ONE that Jesus does is unto salvation (saves, makes a person born-again).


    I agree



    Thus WHY the scriptures point out the importance of the ONE Baptism that all who believe, experience (Ephesians 4). After rebirth (filled with the Spirit) , experiencing additional "fillings" in the Holy Spirit is not about the One that saved. It’s when empowerment is provided by God through His Spirit.







    This is a grouping of scriptures that in isolation, I can understand your confusion. I will say this at least, the One Baptism issues a person into the One Body of Christ.
    Seeing as you were unable to find scripture for your answers, I'll let my questions stand as unanswered. The sixth point you offered a correction to my verse. Here it is: Matthew 20:22; "But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able." I am aware that the "baptism" part is disputed in the KJV, but where then is the problem? It is again found in Mark 10:38 and Luke 12:50. I think the Received Texts don't have to justify themselves, but if you insist, why did you not answer my question from Mark and Luke?

    But am I really surprised? You and Pbminimum have a long history of not answering my proofs. Here, you could easily have addressed the matter from TWO other gospels where there is no dispute.

  3. #303
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Thanks for the exchange. Go well bro.
    So I guess your done ? You don't want to decide where you stand ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Seeing as you were unable to find scripture for your answers, I'll let my questions stand as unanswered. The sixth point you offered a correction to my verse. Here it is: Matthew 20:22; "But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able." I am aware that the "baptism" part is disputed in the KJV, but where then is the problem? It is again found in Mark 10:38 and Luke 12:50. I think the Received Texts don't have to justify themselves, but if you insist, why did you not answer my question from Mark and Luke?

    But am I really surprised? You and Pbminimum have a long history of not answering my proofs. Here, you could easily have addressed the matter from TWO other gospels where there is no dispute.
    See above. Your proofs aren't as concerning as your commentary.

  4. #304
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Wall's I will get straight to my point..

    Do you trust in your own works to justify you, or Christ's atoning blood ?

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Wall's I will get straight to my point..

    Do you trust in your own works to justify you, or Christ's atoning blood ?
    How do you know that heaven is beneath the sea?

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    How do you know that heaven is beneath the sea?
    What in the world are you talking about ?

  7. #307
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The sixth point you offered a correction to my verse. Here it is: Matthew 20:22; "But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able."

    But am I really surprised? You and Pbminimum have a long history of not answering my proofs. Here, you could easily have addressed the matter from TWO other gospels where there is no dispute.
    Posting the verse was not a correction... I was ensuring the scripture was the one you intended.

    Mark 10: 38 Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?”

    Luke 12: 50 I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how great is my distress until it is accomplished!


    I am aware that the "baptism" part is disputed in the KJV, but where then is the problem? It is again found in Mark 10:38 and Luke 12:50. I think the Received Texts don't have to justify themselves, but if you insist, why did you not answer my question from Mark and Luke?
    OK, your intent is more clear now.

    OK, I just need to understand. Are you saying that a person who believes in Jesus Christ and whom has been redeemed/justified BY Jesus Christ due to the person's belief "in Him"... is not in Christ because mankind has not submerged the believer in water?

    A yes or a no will REALLY be clear in addressing this and I can address Mt 20, Mk 10 and Luke 12
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  8. #308
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    Believe and be baptized... context.

    Standard question, a person is listening to a Christian radio station for a month or so and then on one day, they pull off into a rest stop and while sitting in the car, listening to a program that is witnessing Christ, this listener believes unto Jesus. They pray, surrendering themselves over to Him, they repent of sin and declare Jesus as their Savior.

    Does Jesus immediately baptize them (the ONE Baptism unto salvation), redeeming them as they are praying... or does Jesus have to FIRST wait for a man to immerse this person into water, for Jesus to redeem this person who just accepted Him?

    Jesus redeemed us at the cross. This fact simply needs to be received by us. That is covered in the "Believe" part of the quote "Believe and be baptized and you shall be saved". There would be no possibility of salvation without the Lord's redemption. He opened the way to the Holy of Holies.

    The Lord said "narrow is the way that leads to salvation and few there be that find it". This narrow way involves obedience to the Lord. Being baptized is the first step in that obedience.

    Jesus told Peter to take up his cross and follow him. That requires obedience, and that was the path Peter needed to take to work out his salvation.

    In typology the Israelites ate the passover feast in Egypt. But it was when the crossed over the Red Sea that they were "saved" from the Egyptian army.
    I believe it was a matter of "obedience" for the apostles to practice Water Baptism as part of their ministry. I do *not* believe Water Baptism was ever given as a matter of *required obedience* for all believers.

    Salvation can either be for those who "believe and are saved," or for those who both "believe and are baptized." The "Baptized" part is only symbolic of actual Salvation, and is purely ceremonial. It is a valued initiation ceremony, a ritual serving to provide Christian confession, which is part of Salvation. And it is also a public testimonial, which is the evidence that we have indeed been saved.

    The true Baptism that is, in fact, essential, is the Spirit Baptism part, in which we are spiritually baptized into Christ himself. Water Baptism merely symbolizes that.

    Matt 3.11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

  9. #309
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Originally Posted by znpaaneah

    The verse "believe and be baptized and you shall be saved" proves that you do not need to be baptized to believe, on the contrary believing in the Lord's redemption would precede anyone's baptism. We receive the Lord's redemptive work by believing, so again, baptism is not necessary to be redeemed. We simply need to believe and confess that Jesus is Lord.

    So then, why is baptism mentioned as a orerequisite to being saved?

    Let's start with the earliest type of baptism, Noah's ark.

    Noah believed God -- definitely the first and most important step towards his salvation.

    But he then had to build the ark, a work of faith without which his faith would have been dead.

    Then he had to pass through the flood. When he stepped out of that ark that was a whole new salvation. He had saved all of the domesticated animals that will ultimately repopulate the earth (except for llamas and guinea pigs). That ark had all the supplies he would need to build a barn, feed his animals, and begin the job of restoring the earth.

    OK, lets go back to context.

    One side of the road: v16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

    Ya ever notice v17? How the specificity is NOT, "those who believe AND are baptized, in My name that will..." The verses specificity is those who believe will do

    OK, context, the OTHER side of the road:

    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

    Once redeemed BY Jesus Christ (grace and faith)... the water baptism that a man will do to a believer, is a work. A work that is actually done by both the one baptizing and the one who is baptized. The specificity of the Ephesian verse shows us that it's NOT the baptism in water that saves, it is because one is IN Jesus Christ (provision of grace and faith).

    So we have both sides of this road?

    So, baptism in water is NOT a prerequisite for salvation, receiving a water baptism is a PRODUCT of salvation (a work of faith, faith is not dead). Just as all those signs and wonders in the Mark scripture, are PRODUCTS of salvation (belief). That Mark verse, when all the other verses (v17+) are included in the context with v16, the BELIEF is what PRODUCES one to receive a baptism in water and also, produce all the other fruit/works. None of those fruits SAVE (including the water baptism), they are fruit of one who IS saved.

    Another specificity of Mark 16:16, believers who are baptized will be saved and unbelievers are condemned. So, what happens with believers who are not baptized? To say that believers who are baptized will be saved and those who are not baptized are NOT saved... is NOT what the verse specifies. No where in scripture are we taught that a believer who is not baptized in water, is not nor will not, be saved. To assume that a believer who does not do a water baptism is not saved/gonna be saved, is to CREATE something that is not in that verse.

    Look at this through v16 - the ONLY assurance we have in JUST that verse is this: Believing in Christ, He redeems. Not believing, He does not redeem.

    The water baptism is commanded so that a new believer CAN do their very FIRST faithful work. Which isn't even ALLOWED to be accomplished UNTIL Jesus Christ has saved the person FIRST. They are still believers, still saved until they do this work. If this work is not done... who are we to say Jesus Christ did not redeem the believer?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  10. #310
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    What in the world are you talking about ?
    Here is a sequence back in the 50's postings. You posted this in #52

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Fair enough. The quoted comments in my previous post suggest that there are those who are believers who are not entering the kingdom. Is that what you propose ? If so, then elaborate simply with scripture.
    I answered you with fact after fact in the next posting - #53

    Walls #53

    Good. A fair question. The three following passages of scripture are addressed to Christians (1st Cor.1:2; Gal.1:2; Eph.1:1)

    1st Corinthians 6:9-10 is in context of one Christian taking another before heathen court.
    9 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind
    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."


    That is, they are Christians, Believers, Brothers and those who call upon the name of Jesus. The shall not enter the Kingdom when Christ comes because of their WORKS

    Galatians 5:21. The context is "biting and devouring one another and not walking according to the Spirit (5:15-16)
    "Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

    That is, they are Christians but have let the flesh, which wars with the Spirit, get the better of them. Those who cannot overcome the flesh by the Spirit will not enter the Kingdom when Christ sets it up on earth.

    Ephesians 5:5. The context is "children walking in love as followers of God". "Children" means they have the same Father.
    "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

    That is, these Christians who are now children of God and required to walk in a Godly fashion, will be excluded from the Kingdom when Christ sets it up on earth.

    Prevailing Christian theology is that the "Kingdom of Heaven" is IN Heaven. Don't be caught by that. It is God's Kingdom ON EARTH - the one Daniel Chapter 2 predicts, the one our Lord Jesus predicted and taught extensively on and the one our Lord Jesus prayed for in Matthew 6:9-10;

    9 "... Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
    10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."


    1. "THY kingdom" is "the Kingdom of God"
    2. "THY WILL" is heavenly RULE, which is exercised NOW in heaven but not yet on earth.

    You will notice that I have been precise and true to ONLY what has been said in these scriptures, without adding or subtracting, and have been true to their context. Is this satisfactory?
    And after going to that length, this is what you answered in posting #54

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Walls, before I continue , I need to know if you believe those who these verses are referring to are genuine believers who are going to be condemned. Is that what you're saying ?
    I had just brought THREE scriptures FULL OF PROOFS that Christians are meant - and you ask that question! The proofs are before your eyes. My words are clear, plain and unambiguous. My English is correct grammatically. But all you did was IGNORE these three examples. You display no interest in an explanation. You act as if this posting doesn't exist. Since this series, you have done this again and again. I courteously answer your question, and take the time an effort to lay down an argument. Your response is to pull out a word and a concept that I did not address, and accuse me with it. I cannot judge your motives, for the Lord forbids it, but I CAN OBSERVE that you have no interest in the whole matter. You have yet to debate a point of mine. All you have done is accused me of things I never addressed.

    Now, if you are serious, you can prove it by commenting in my posting above. Or we can discuss heaven beneath the sea and smoke some grass. Did I show that BELIEVERS are threatened with not entering the Kingdom? And if so, then a Believer has ALL the privileges that scripture accords to FAITH. They are (i) forgiven, (ii) justified, (ii) sanctified, (iii) reconciled, (iv) redeemed, (v) born again, (vi) partakers of the divine life, and (vii) sons of God. But this (ii) justified, (ii) sanctified, (iii) reconciled, (iv) redeemed, (v) born again, (vi) partaker of the divine life, and (vii) son of God, IS THREATENED IN THE ABOVE SCRIPTURES THAT HE MAY BE FOUND UNWORTHY TO ENTER THE KINGDOM THAT CHRIST SETS UP ON EARTH AFTER HIS RETURN. Is that what these above scriptures say?

    If YES .... then we agree. If NO .... then you must show me with sustained logical argument why those people are NOT BELIEVERS. You must dismantle my argument with scripture - NOT YOUR OPINION. If you can't give such a counter argument, you must at least say that my argument is compelling but that you need time to study it. This is the courtesy that we owe each other IN CHRIST.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    There is no escape the plain language and grammar. One is SAVED by FAITH, but one ENTERS THE KINGDOM by WORKS after FAITH. That the ABILITY to do these works comes from Christ is not disputed. That is why it is crucial to entering the Kingdom to have an intimate walk with Christ. He MUST become your source for everything. But the saint has his part to do and if he does not do it, neither will our Lord force him/her.
    Nope.
    Works have nothing to do with entering God's kingdom.

  12. #312
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Tell me, if someone came up to you and asked, "what must I do to be saved?" How would you answer this in a single sentence?
    Interesting question. You can't present an unbeliever with a long list of what he must do before he is accepted of Christ.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Here is a sequence back in the 50's postings. You posted this in #52



    I answered you with fact after fact in the next posting - #53



    And after going to that length, this is what you answered in posting #54



    I had just brought THREE scriptures FULL OF PROOFS that Christians are meant - and you ask that question! The proofs are before your eyes. My words are clear, plain and unambiguous. My English is correct grammatically. But all you did was IGNORE these three examples. You display no interest in an explanation. You act as if this posting doesn't exist. Since this series, you have done this again and again. I courteously answer your question, and take the time an effort to lay down an argument. Your response is to pull out a word and a concept that I did not address, and accuse me with it. I cannot judge your motives, for the Lord forbids it, but I CAN OBSERVE that you have no interest in the whole matter. You have yet to debate a point of mine. All you have done is accused me of things I never addressed.

    Now, if you are serious, you can prove it by commenting in my posting above. Or we can discuss heaven beneath the sea and smoke some grass. Did I show that BELIEVERS are threatened with not entering the Kingdom? And if so, then a Believer has ALL the privileges that scripture accords to FAITH. They are (i) forgiven, (ii) justified, (ii) sanctified, (iii) reconciled, (iv) redeemed, (v) born again, (vi) partakers of the divine life, and (vii) sons of God. But this (ii) justified, (ii) sanctified, (iii) reconciled, (iv) redeemed, (v) born again, (vi) partaker of the divine life, and (vii) son of God, IS THREATENED IN THE ABOVE SCRIPTURES THAT HE MAY BE FOUND UNWORTHY TO ENTER THE KINGDOM THAT CHRIST SETS UP ON EARTH AFTER HIS RETURN. Is that what these above scriptures say?

    If YES .... then we agree. If NO .... then you must show me with sustained logical argument why those people are NOT BELIEVERS. You must dismantle my argument with scripture - NOT YOUR OPINION. If you can't give such a counter argument, you must at least say that my argument is compelling but that you need time to study it. This is the courtesy that we owe each other IN CHRIST.
    I asked you what time it was, not how to build a watch.

    Do you believe that your works justify you, or the blood of Christ ?

    I really don't expect and answer.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    It is the physical act of calling for another Christian to immerse you in water in Jesus's Name. It does not remove your sins, It does not give eternal life, but it is a huge and important step for Christian to end up where God wants him.
    I don't think I agree with this definition of baptism. According to you: 1. it doesn't remove sins. 2. does not give eternal life but 3. is an important step for a Christian to end up where God wants him. What exactly does this mean?

    I find it impossible to reconcile your concept of baptism with scriptures version of the doctrine.

    Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    1. We are buried by baptism into death - ie, death of the old man (body of sin).
    2. Raised from the dead - ie raised in newness of life in Christ. Corroborated in 2 Cor 5:17

    So how do you compare Rom 6:4 with your position in post #242.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    FHG was explicitly referring to Matthew 28:19, where Jesus is commanding His disciples to baptise. This means water baptism. See also Acts 8:36 and 1 Cor 1:16.

    But since it seems that anti-baptism is the official position of this forum, I see no alternative but to leave.
    I concur that Jesus Christ' commandment in Matt 28:19 is specifically about water baptism even though immersion in Christ and all it entails is also part of it. But to deny that it's not about water baptism is a blatant denial of a precise scriptural injunction.

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