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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #316
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Interesting question. You can't present an unbeliever with a long list of what he must do before he is accepted of Christ.
    Exactly. The literal simplicity is... Believe in Jesus Christ!
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  2. #317
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Hooah. The works we do is only about reward. Only those justified stand at the JS, for their reward.
    Very true. According to 1 Cor 3:13-15, one's 'works' may not measure up but it won't affect their salvation.

  3. #318
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Very true. According to 1 Cor 3:13-15, one's 'works' may not measure up but it won't affect their salvation.
    There is a verse that states ALL works can be burned up, but the person will STILL be saved.

    Edit... wait, your verse is that verse

    One can walk away from the JS with nothing BUT their eternal life with Christ but at least they are still with Christ.

    Walls does not believe this
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  4. #319
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Nope.
    Works have nothing to do with entering God's kingdom.
    Who shall we believe?

    Matthew 7:21: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOES the will of my Father which is in heaven."

    Matthew 5:20: "For I say unto you, That except YOUR righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

    Matthew 11:12: "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force."

    Matthew 13:44: "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field."

    Matthew 22:2-14:
    2 "The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
    ....
    11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
    12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
    ....
    14 For many are called, but few are chosen."


    A "garment" in Parable is one's WORKS (Rev.19:8)

    Matthew 25:14-16:
    14 "For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
    15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
    16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents."


    And how is one refused entry to the Kingdom?

    1st Corinthians 6:9-10:
    9 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."


    1 Corinthians 6:9: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,"

    Galatians 5:21: "Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

    Ephesians 5:5: "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

    And the Kingdom is gained by:-

    Colossians 4:11: "And Jesus, which is called Justus, who are of the circumcision. These only are my fellowworkers unto the kingdom of God, which have been a comfort unto me."

    and suffering

    Acts 14:22: "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."

    2 Thessalonians 1:5: "Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:"

    My brother Trivalee, you had better read and learn these verses off by heart lest you be called a preacher of false doctrine and lead many a Christian astray. And then you can do a search of all the scriptures pertaining to the Kingdom and you will see that ENTRY INTO THE KINGDOM IS BY WORKS IN EVERY CASE!

  5. #320
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    I asked you what time it was, not how to build a watch.

    Do you believe that your works justify you, or the blood of Christ ?

    I really don't expect and answer.
    No. No answer to a man who INSERTS "JUSTIFY" when it is NOT THE SUBJECT OF DISCUSSION. Just a shaking of the head. You are not even able to stick to the theme. You can't even apply simple English.

    Build a watch? I gave you THREE simple scriptures. TWO were needed to establish something. And it was God Who gives these revelations. Your chagrin at the complexity of the Bible is directed at Him. Beware!

  6. #321
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    No. No answer to a man who INSERTS "JUSTIFY" when it is NOT THE SUBJECT OF DISCUSSION. Just a shaking of the head. You are not even able to stick to the theme. You can't even apply simple English.

    Build a watch? I gave you THREE simple scriptures. TWO were needed to establish something. And it was God Who gives these revelations. Your chagrin at the complexity of the Bible is directed at Him. Beware!
    Wall's it's such a simple question and it's absolutely pertinent to the discussion. In fact when all of these conversations are condensed, it is in fact THE subject, and I find it very telling that you won't come right out and say it in a yes or no fashion, as you've already said that your works do in fact justify you , and that Christ didn't come to justify the sinner.

  7. #322
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    So one day the Lord will call His people to a Judgment Seat, NOT TO FIND OUT IF THE REDEMPTION OF CHRIST HAD JUSTIFIED THEM, but, "... according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2nd Cor.5:10). The Great Judge on the Judgment Seat does not ask if you had Christ as your justification. He will ask you what you have DONE. And if you have DONE GOOD you will be rewarded. And if you have DONE BAD you will suffer retribution. If you have been flavorless salt and hidden your light from before the Gentiles, you will walk away from the Judgment Seat NOT JUSTIFIED. At the Judgement Seat you cannot claim Christ as your justification. He is not given for that.

    Is this not what you meant here ? If not , please clarify.

    And if it's not pertinent, then why did you mention it ?

  8. #323
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I don't think I agree with this definition of baptism. According to you: 1. it doesn't remove sins. 2. does not give eternal life but 3. is an important step for a Christian to end up where God wants him. What exactly does this mean?

    I find it impossible to reconcile your concept of baptism with scriptures version of the doctrine.

    Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    1. We are buried by baptism into death - ie, death of the old man (body of sin).
    2. Raised from the dead - ie raised in newness of life in Christ. Corroborated in 2 Cor 5:17

    So how do you compare Rom 6:4 with your position in post #242.
    Does Romans 6:4 contain the words "remove sins"?
    Does Romans 6:4 promise eternal life?


    You ADD TO SCRIPTURE!

    Romans 6:4 STATES that we are buried into the death of Christ, NOT BY CRUCIFIXION, but symbolically by IMMERSION IN WATER. Why? To TERMINATE THE OLD. This then enables us to WALK in the newness of LIFE. What Life? The HUMAN Life of Christ INFUSED INTO US. The example is Israel (1st Cor.10:1-11). They were BAPTIZED by walking between the water with the cloud over them (fully immersed) so that which they did in Egypt (worship idols and build Satan's treasure cities) is TERMINATED. From that time on they WALKED in God's Law. The "LIFE" here is Christ's HUMAN LIFE which was perfect and pleasing to God. God's purpose is not to make thousands of little gods. His purpose is to make thousands LIKE JESUS (Rom.8:29)

  9. #324
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Wall's it's such a simple question and it's absolutely pertinent to the discussion. In fact when all of these conversations are condensed, it is in fact THE subject, and I find it very telling that you won't come right out and say it in a yes or no fashion, as you've already said that your works do in fact justify you , and that Christ didn't come to justify the sinner.
    This thread is about "How necessary Baptism is". If you want derail the thread by discussing "justification" you can do it without me. But if you want to discuss it, why, start a thread and give your understanding of it. We will then test your thesis in the light of scripture. If you do it tomorrow I'll join in for I will be away for two weeks after this. Just remember to define it, and show why we are justified NOW. I'll give you a hint to feed the fire. Justification always goes with a TRIAL. An Accuser makes a claim of unrighteousness and the Judge answers according to Law. Remember to explain why in Numbers 24:1-7 God justified Israel when all that was going on in those tents was IDOL WORSHIP!

    1 "And when Balaam saw that it pleased the LORD to bless Israel, he went not, as at other times, to seek for enchantments, but he set his face toward the wilderness.
    2 And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes; and the spirit of God came upon him.
    3 And he took up his parable, and said, Balaam the son of Beor hath said, and the man whose eyes are open hath said:
    4 He hath said, which heard the words of God, which saw the vision of the Almighty, falling into a trance, but having his eyes open:
    5 How goodly are thy tents, O Jacob, and thy tabernacles, O Israel!
    6 As the valleys are they spread forth, as gardens by the river's side, as the trees of lign aloes which the LORD hath planted, and as cedar trees beside the waters.
    7 He shall pour the water out of his buckets, and his seed shall be in many waters, and his king shall be higher than Agag, and his kingdom shall be exalted."


    Psalm 95:10 and Acts.7:43 show a different picture altogether. Forty years of carrying Molech's tabernacle alongside God's??? How then does the Spirit of God make Balaam JUDGE Israel's tents as "goodly". Does this justify Israel? Revelation 12:10 says that we are accused "day and night" before God in heaven. What is God's answer? Are we justified or not? And then, when you have explained that, you can explain why SIX of the seven Churches in Chapters 2 and 3 are NOT justified. You poo-paaed my earlier posting on POSITIONAL Justification and DISPOSITIONAL Justification. But if you start a thread on it, watch out. It is not a one-word theme. It entails a bit more than telling the time.

  10. #325
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Exactly. The literal simplicity is... Believe in Jesus Christ!
    When you say "Jesus" you invoke nearly 1,200 chapters of information about the most sublime and complicated Man and God ever. Luke 24:27; "And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself."
    You want it simple. Paul teaches in Ephesians 3:18-19;
    "That ye (Christians) ...
    18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
    19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God."


    C'mon brothers. The smallest thing is an atom - and what complexity! Think of the Creator and appreciate how many millions of times more complex He is. Don't reduce the bible to one Chapter. Open it up. Eat it. Digest it. It is a most exciting revelation, the bottom of which we will need eternity to reach.

  11. #326
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Interesting question. You can't present an unbeliever with a long list of what he must do before he is accepted of Christ.
    Another brother who changes words. We speak of the "Necessity of Baptism" and you turn to an unbeliever "accepting Christ".

  12. #327
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    There is a verse that states ALL works can be burned up, but the person will STILL be saved.

    Edit... wait, your verse is that verse

    One can walk away from the JS with nothing BUT their eternal life with Christ but at least they are still with Christ.

    Walls does not believe this
    What Walls does is that he FINISHES THE STATEMENT. 1st Corinthians 3:13-15:

    13 "Every man's WORK shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

  13. #328

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Here is a sequence back in the 50's postings. You posted this in #52



    I answered you with fact after fact in the next posting - #53



    And after going to that length, this is what you answered in posting #54



    I had just brought THREE scriptures FULL OF PROOFS that Christians are meant - and you ask that question! The proofs are before your eyes. My words are clear, plain and unambiguous. My English is correct grammatically. But all you did was IGNORE these three examples. You display no interest in an explanation. You act as if this posting doesn't exist. Since this series, you have done this again and again. I courteously answer your question, and take the time an effort to lay down an argument. Your response is to pull out a word and a concept that I did not address, and accuse me with it. I cannot judge your motives, for the Lord forbids it, but I CAN OBSERVE that you have no interest in the whole matter. You have yet to debate a point of mine. All you have done is accused me of things I never addressed.

    Now, if you are serious, you can prove it by commenting in my posting above. Or we can discuss heaven beneath the sea and smoke some grass. Did I show that BELIEVERS are threatened with not entering the Kingdom? And if so, then a Believer has ALL the privileges that scripture accords to FAITH. They are (i) forgiven, (ii) justified, (ii) sanctified, (iii) reconciled, (iv) redeemed, (v) born again, (vi) partakers of the divine life, and (vii) sons of God. But this (ii) justified, (ii) sanctified, (iii) reconciled, (iv) redeemed, (v) born again, (vi) partaker of the divine life, and (vii) son of God, IS THREATENED IN THE ABOVE SCRIPTURES THAT HE MAY BE FOUND UNWORTHY TO ENTER THE KINGDOM THAT CHRIST SETS UP ON EARTH AFTER HIS RETURN. Is that what these above scriptures say?

    If YES .... then we agree. If NO .... then you must show me with sustained logical argument why those people are NOT BELIEVERS. You must dismantle my argument with scripture - NOT YOUR OPINION. If you can't give such a counter argument, you must at least say that my argument is compelling but that you need time to study it. This is the courtesy that we owe each other IN CHRIST.
    I will ask a question relative to your thoughts.

    And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

    And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, 1 Cor 15:23 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Rev 20:6

    1 Cor 15:24 YLT then -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power -- Rev 20:13 KJV And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Rev 2:7 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. Rev 22:2

    The thief, in the kingdom or in the paradise of God or both?

    BTW I believe the elect are elected for purpose.

  14. #329
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    So one day the Lord will call His people to a Judgment Seat, NOT TO FIND OUT IF THE REDEMPTION OF CHRIST HAD JUSTIFIED THEM, but, "... according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2nd Cor.5:10). The Great Judge on the Judgment Seat does not ask if you had Christ as your justification. He will ask you what you have DONE. And if you have DONE GOOD you will be rewarded. And if you have DONE BAD you will suffer retribution. If you have been flavorless salt and hidden your light from before the Gentiles, you will walk away from the Judgment Seat NOT JUSTIFIED. At the Judgement Seat you cannot claim Christ as your justification. He is not given for that.

    Is this not what you meant here ? If not , please clarify.

    And if it's not pertinent, then why did you mention it ?
    I will not add or subtract from my words. They are perfectly legible and high-school English is enough to comprehend them. What I will add is that you have consistently maintained that we are justified by Christ. This is TRUE. Before a Holy God we rotten sinners are justified by Christ's work. But at the JUDGMENT SEAT you will have no such luxury. The Judgment Seat is to TRY YOUR WORKS - NOT CHRIST'S. And the verse I allude to above from 2nd Corinthians 5:10, with its companion verse in Romans 14:10, connect with the Parables of the KINGDOM where servants and Virgins GET THROWN OUT OF THE KINGDOM FOR THEIR WORKS!

    Of course, if you think that the Kingdom (out) OF Heaven is the Kingdom IN Heaven, you will be truly mystified. If dead men go to heaven then there is no need for the resurrection. There is no need for suffering. There is no need for a Christian to "do the will of his Father in heaven". He can love the world, seek riches and fame, fornicate away and drink with the drunken, steal, lie and blaspheme - but he is justified! YES! THIS IS YOUR THEOLOGY!

    But if he faces a Judgment Seat where (1) EVERYTHING he did comes under scrutiny to see (i) if it was the will of the Father, and (ii) was good, and (2) the threat if they are found wanting is OUTER DARKNESS, WEEPING, GNASHING OF TEETH, STRIPES and BEING CUT ASUNDER for the duration of the Millennial Kingdom, all of a sudden the Christian sobers up - or, HE TWISTS AND TURNS SCRIPTURE TO MEAN SOMETHING ELSE. But I tell you, the Holy Spirit is vitally interested in your walk, and vitally interested to see you make it into the Kingdom. He will send thorny brothers to rattle the cage and pound the table. And only when you have blatantly turned your face from clear and plain scriptures concerning the Kingdom, will the Holy Spirit shake the dust off His feet and leave you to the grave you dug for yourself.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    I will ask a question relative to your thoughts.

    And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

    And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, 1 Cor 15:23 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Rev 20:6

    1 Cor 15:24 YLT then -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power -- Rev 20:13 KJV And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Rev 2:7 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. Rev 22:2

    The thief, in the kingdom or in the paradise of God or both?

    BTW I believe the elect are elected for purpose.
    This was hotly debated earlier in the thread. See if you can find it.
    1. Paradise is a compartment of Hades. Our Lord Jesus went to Hades "in the heart of the earth". So did the thief. There is no scripture that indicates the Paradise has changed its place. The word "up" in 2nd Corinthians 12 is not warranted as the word "harpazo" means "caught away". Movement is implied but not direction.
    2. The thief asked Jesus to remember him when He cam into His Kingdom. The Kingdom here is when Jesus will rule the earth. It is after His Second Coming and Armageddon (see Daniel 2 and Revelation 19). To get into the Kingdom you have to have certain qualifications. One of the is Baptism (Jn.3:5). The thief had no time to be Baptized and he had a lifetime of evil works behind him. He is saved from the Lake of Fire, he will have eternal life and be born again a son of God, but he will not qualify for the Kingdom. So our Lord Jesus does not answer him about the Kingdom.

    Hope this helps bro.

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