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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #331
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Hey! It 01:40 here. Good night and God bless - both friend and foe.

  2. #332
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    What Walls does is that he FINISHES THE STATEMENT. 1st Corinthians 3:13-15:

    13 "Every man's WORK shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
    Exactly... the concluding verse shows us that even when/if ALL works were to be burned before the JS during judgement, the Christian will be the ONLY one emerging from the intensity of the judgment (all else was consumed) and will go into eternal life (SAVED).

    My understanding of all you've been saying, you conclude that not all Christian reap salvation at the JS. However, v15 is the #1 verse that refutes your theology conclusion.

    Last year P (I'm almost positive) was the first to point out that those pushing false theology onto this message board actually utilize the very scriptures that refute their own theology. Yet they don't see that the scriptures they use, is/are some of the scriptures refuting their very position. You continue to prove that his observation was prophetic because it's been constantly happening with ALL who push a false theology.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  3. #333
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    When you say "Jesus" you invoke nearly 1,200 chapters of information about the most sublime and complicated Man and God ever. Luke 24:27; "And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself."
    You want it simple. Paul teaches in Ephesians 3:18-19;
    "That ye (Christians) ...
    18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
    19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God."


    C'mon brothers. The smallest thing is an atom - and what complexity! Think of the Creator and appreciate how many millions of times more complex He is. Don't reduce the bible to one Chapter. Open it up. Eat it. Digest it. It is a most exciting revelation, the bottom of which we will need eternity to reach.
    Your post deal with DISCIPLESHIP, which comes when?

    AFTER one has believed unto Christ. You seem to be putting the horse in the cart and expecting the horse to pull the cart. FIRST you have to simply do one thing... hook the horse to the front of the cart, THEN teach the horse to pull.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  4. #334
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    OK, lets go back to context.

    One side of the road: v16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

    Ya ever notice v17? How the specificity is NOT, "those who believe AND are baptized, in My name that will..." The verses specificity is those who believe will do Slug1


    I would appreciate it if you drop the condescending tone.
    In this medium, if there is a negative or condescending "tone" that tone is only coming from the reader. If you honestly feel that my words are condescending, PLEASE report my post to the leadership of this message board by hitting the little "yield" sign in the bottom left corner of my post. They will determine if how you feel is warranted and I will be ordered to stop.

    The only logical conclusion from one writer saying in V. 16 that you must believe and be baptized to be saved, whereas those who don't believe will be condemned is that this writer does not equate "not being condemned" to "salvation". The Good news of salvation is far more than simply "not being condemned". If your definition of salvation is "not condemned" then that is the problem.
    Let me give you a standard analogy for this specific verse.

    The actual verse:

    v16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.


    Lesson verse: Whoever believes and lives in Canada will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

    A single question to make the lesson's point: Are believers who do not live in Canada, not saved?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  5. #335
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    I am clicking on the button that says "reply with quote" but I am not seeing the quote.
    Shooting in the dark but double check the settings for your browser. If you are not "allowing" popups, you have to OK popups for this website. Maybe this is why the quoted portion doesn't show?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  6. #336

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    This was hotly debated earlier in the thread. See if you can find it.
    1. Paradise is a compartment of Hades. Our Lord Jesus went to Hades "in the heart of the earth". So did the thief. There is no scripture that indicates the Paradise has changed its place. The word "up" in 2nd Corinthians 12 is not warranted as the word "harpazo" means "caught away". Movement is implied but not direction.
    2. The thief asked Jesus to remember him when He cam into His Kingdom. The Kingdom here is when Jesus will rule the earth. It is after His Second Coming and Armageddon (see Daniel 2 and Revelation 19). To get into the Kingdom you have to have certain qualifications. One of the is Baptism (Jn.3:5). The thief had no time to be Baptized and he had a lifetime of evil works behind him. He is saved from the Lake of Fire, he will have eternal life and be born again a son of God, but he will not qualify for the Kingdom. So our Lord Jesus does not answer him about the Kingdom.

    Hope this helps bro.
    I agree with 2 for sure. Is the tree of life going to be in a compartment of Hades per Rev 2:7, 22:2 course I guess one would have to consider Rev 20:14 when asking that. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[fn]

  7. #337
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Hey! It 01:40 here. Good night and God bless - both friend and foe.
    Foe, huh? Your words continue to reveal your heart
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  8. #338
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I will not add or subtract from my words. They are perfectly legible and high-school English is enough to comprehend them. What I will add is that you have consistently maintained that we are justified by Christ. This is TRUE. Before a Holy God we rotten sinners are justified by Christ's work. But at the JUDGMENT SEAT you will have no such luxury. The Judgment Seat is to TRY YOUR WORKS - NOT CHRIST'S. And the verse I allude to above from 2nd Corinthians 5:10, with its companion verse in Romans 14:10, connect with the Parables of the KINGDOM where servants and Virgins GET THROWN OUT OF THE KINGDOM FOR THEIR WORKS!

    Of course, if you think that the Kingdom (out) OF Heaven is the Kingdom IN Heaven, you will be truly mystified. If dead men go to heaven then there is no need for the resurrection. There is no need for suffering. There is no need for a Christian to "do the will of his Father in heaven". He can love the world, seek riches and fame, fornicate away and drink with the drunken, steal, lie and blaspheme - but he is justified! YES! THIS IS YOUR THEOLOGY!

    But if he faces a Judgment Seat where (1) EVERYTHING he did comes under scrutiny to see (i) if it was the will of the Father, and (ii) was good, and (2) the threat if they are found wanting is OUTER DARKNESS, WEEPING, GNASHING OF TEETH, STRIPES and BEING CUT ASUNDER for the duration of the Millennial Kingdom, all of a sudden the Christian sobers up - or, HE TWISTS AND TURNS SCRIPTURE TO MEAN SOMETHING ELSE. But I tell you, the Holy Spirit is vitally interested in your walk, and vitally interested to see you make it into the Kingdom. He will send thorny brothers to rattle the cage and pound the table. And only when you have blatantly turned your face from clear and plain scriptures concerning the Kingdom, will the Holy Spirit shake the dust off His feet and leave you to the grave you dug for yourself.
    The point you are trying to dodge with a great many words is this.. Someone who is justified will experience both the Kingdom OF and Kingdom IN heaven... will they not ? It comes down to lost and saved Wall's and you know this is my point. YOU believe salvation is earned, I believe it's given. That's the difference.

  9. #339
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Originally Posted by znpaaneah

    This is a good analogy but I would change Canada to the Ark. Those who believe the word of God and are in the ark are saved, those who do not believe are condemned.

    Here is the problem with this, no one "else" at that time believed in God.

    or another Biblical analogy -- those who believe God's word and keep the passover are saved, those who don't believe are condemned.


    That is not an analogy. This was a specific event for a specific purpose.

    In both cases believing God's word requires some action -- entering the ark or putting blood on the doorposts. Fail to do those actions and there will be consequences, but not condemnation.


    Exactly! For New Covenant believers, these actions are for the purpose of production of faithful WORKS to glorify God, not get us saved. All our works will be judged at the JS and all that are not of faith (basically I usually say, works that did not glorify God "His way"), will be burned up. Has nothing to do with whether or not one will be saved.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  10. #340
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    It works now, thanks
    Awesome !
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  11. #341
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    If you prefer I'll use your believe and go to Canada analogy, but it is far too vague.
    No analogy is perfect, they are to help understand lessons in the Bible.
    Suppose God spoke a word that the remnant of saints needed to flee to Canada to be saved from the wrath of the dragon. Those that believe and go to Canada will be saved, those that don't believe will be condemned.
    Well, the dragon can't condemn, he can only kill/destroy. So to follow through with this, all Christians who don't go to Canada will be killed by the dragon. This is not taking away their salvation from them.

    By the way, this IS already happening in reality. Out there in the world where Christianity is persecuted unto death, believers who are not yet baptized... will not lose their salvation when "evil" doers (those inspired by the dragon) kill them (execute his wrath upon believers) for their faith in Christ.

    Better now?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  12. #342
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Exactly... the concluding verse shows us that even when/if ALL works were to be burned before the JS during judgement, the Christian will be the ONLY one emerging from the intensity of the judgment (all else was consumed) and will go into eternal life (SAVED).

    My understanding of all you've been saying, you conclude that not all Christian reap salvation at the JS. However, v15 is the #1 verse that refutes your theology conclusion.

    Last year P (I'm almost positive) was the first to point out that those pushing false theology onto this message board actually utilize the very scriptures that refute their own theology. Yet they don't see that the scriptures they use, is/are some of the scriptures refuting their very position. You continue to prove that his observation was prophetic because it's been constantly happening with ALL who push a false theology.
    Where on earth did you get, "that even when/if ALL works were to be burned before the JS during judgement, the Christian will be the ONLY one emerging from the intensity of the judgment (all else was consumed) and will go into eternal life (SAVED)"? It does not say anything like that. Back to school English ...

    13 "Every man's WORK shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."


    Verse 13. Every man's work will be made manifest. That is, it is set out for all to see
    Verse 13. For the "DAY" will declare it. What DAY? The DAY Christ sets a man before His judgement seat
    Verse 13. Fire will try every man's work. It is "manifest", that is, displayed and it passes through FIRE
    Verse 14. If a man's work REMAINS untouched by the fire, he will receive a reward. What will REMAIN? Why GOLD, SILVER AND PRECIOUS STONES. They are materials already formed by fire. But will wood, hay and stubble remain? No. What do they stand for? (i) Gold - the nature of God. The Holy of Holies is completely gold-plated. (ii) Silver - the redemptive work of Christ - He was betrayed unto death for 30 pieces of silver. (iii) precious stones - the transforming work of the Holy Spirit to sanctify a Christian DISPOSITIONALLY. (iv) Wood - humanity, men are trees in parable. (v) hay - a weak wood - weak humanity. (vi) stubble - unusable weak wood - useless fallen and depraved humanity. The man who built the church by expounding and revealing God (which you find too complicated) and turning the saints to the life and nature of God as their sole resource, will see his work untouched by the fire. He will receive a REWARD THAT COMES INTO EFFECT AFTER "THE DAY" (of Judgement). When is AFTER the day of Jugement? THE Millennial Kingdom!!!
    Verse 15. The foolish man builds on sand. He builds with human things like he would build a business. The man who built the Church with human methods, like most Churches are built today, with entertainment, rock bands, picnics and money will see his work DEVOURED by the FIRE. He will, before all the other Christians (for it is displayed) be shown what a slothful, disobedient and foolish man he was. And besides seeing his work turn to ashes before the whole Church, besides being humiliated and shown for a dumb-ass, HE THEN SUFFERS A LOSS. The grammar shows THREE LOSSES. (i) His WORK is LOST, (ii) his reputation is TRASHED, and (iii) then he suffers another LOSS - he is not allowed to particpate in the Millennial Kingdom for 1,000 years.
    Verse 15. What does it mean "saved". That means that some great threat was before him and he escapes it. What is the great threat before man? THE LAKE OF FIRE - PERDITION! Will this man go to the Lake of Fire? NO! When he believed in Christ the work of Christ is applied to him and God will not strike back twice. So the Lake of Fire is escaped. His salvation by Christ's death can never be lost, but HE CAN BE CHASTISED!(Heb.12:5-8). In ALL the parables of faithful and unfaithful SERVANTS, the SERVANTS STAY SERVANTS, but they are CHASTISED for the Millennium. The Virgins are Virgins when the lived. The are called "Virgins" while they slept. They are still Virgins when they are refused entry into the Wedding Feast. They are still Virgins when they go away to "BUY" (pay a price) for extra oil, and they are still called virgins when they are again refused entry. A Christian cannot lose His salvation.Once a Virgin, always a Virgin. BUT HE CAN, AND WILL, BE CHASTISED.
    Verse 15. If he is already "saved", what means this ADDITIONAL "saved" BY FIRE? This extra being "saved" does not pertain to the Lake of Fire. It pertains to the end of the Millennium. Of Christ's Bride it is said by scripture in Ephesians 5:25-27;

    25 "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
    26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
    27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."


    The question is, will ALL Christians be "without spot", "without blemish" and be "holy" when Christ returns. Obviously NOT. The text we discuss show Christian as FAILURES! The Parables show Christians as FAILED SERVANTS and FAILED VIRGINS! The guest of the Wedding Feast did not have the right Garment. He was blemished. Ananias and Saphira were not HOLY. It is clear the when our Lord Jesus returns, His Bride will still have many problems. So when is this dealt with? It is dealt with during the Millennium. The second "saved" of verse 15 is not "saved" from the Lake of Fire, BUT SAVED FROM THE FILTH OF SPOTS, BLEMISHES AND UNHOLINESS - the things that you are chastised for and were banned from the Kingdom for! The filthy Christian who failed at the Judgement seat does not go to the Lake of Fire - which is DESTRUCTION. He goes through FURTHER TRAINING to burn away "spots, blemishes" and "unholiness". It is FIRE, a PURGING FIRE, but it does not DESTROY. It REFINES! Peter spoke of fiery trials in this age. Paul spoke of Tribulation in this age. The author of Hebrews speaks of CHASTISEMENT in this age. The naughty, slothful, unfaithful Christians were NOT exercised by these things in this age and were found unfit for the 1,000 year Kingdom. SO they must pass through the training again. This time they cannot avoid the FIRE of REFINING. They are "saved" SO AS BY FIRE FROM THEIR OWN FILTHINESS AND SPOTS AND BLEMISHES, so that Christ can present Himself with His spotless Bride after the Millennium (Rev.21:1-2).

    My advice to you is to stop focusing on "salvation" when we discuss Baptism. Salvation is by FAITH and we are all SAVED already. The burning question is not whether we are justified IN Christ or not, or sanctified in Christ or not. These all are a given. They are established, They are by FAITH and we received them when we BELIEVED. But now we must go on to MATURITY. WHAT FOR? FOR THE KINGDOM FOR WHICH WE WERE SAVED, JUSTIFIED AND SANCTIFIED. We do not ever forget the great work of Christ on Golgotha, but it is a foundation. Now we must BUILD - BUILD THE CHURCH, BUILD THE KINGDOM and BUILD OUR DISPOSITION to that of Christ's. That is OUR WORK and THAT IS WHAT WE ARE REWARDED OR CHASTISED FOR AT THE BEMA.

  13. #343
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Where on earth did you get, "that even when/if ALL works were to be burned before the JS during judgement, the Christian will be the ONLY one emerging from the intensity of the judgment (all else was consumed) and will go into eternal life (SAVED)"? It does not say anything like that. Back to school English ...

    13 "Every man's WORK shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."


    Verse 13. Every man's work will be made manifest. That is, it is set out for all to see
    Verse 13. For the "DAY" will declare it. What DAY? The DAY Christ sets a man before His judgement seat
    Verse 13. Fire will try every man's work. It is "manifest", that is, displayed and it passes through FIRE
    Verse 14. If a man's work REMAINS untouched by the fire, he will receive a reward. What will REMAIN? Why GOLD, SILVER AND PRECIOUS STONES. They are materials already formed by fire. But will wood, hay and stubble remain? No. What do they stand for? (i) Gold - the nature of God. The Holy of Holies is completely gold-plated. (ii) Silver - the redemptive work of Christ - He was betrayed unto death for 30 pieces of silver. (iii) precious stones - the transforming work of the Holy Spirit to sanctify a Christian DISPOSITIONALLY. (iv) Wood - humanity, men are trees in parable. (v) hay - a weak wood - weak humanity. (vi) stubble - unusable weak wood - useless fallen and depraved humanity. The man who built the church by expounding and revealing God (which you find too complicated) and turning the saints to the life and nature of God as their sole resource, will see his work untouched by the fire. He will receive a REWARD THAT COMES INTO EFFECT AFTER "THE DAY" (of Judgement). When is AFTER the day of Jugement? THE Millennial Kingdom!!!
    Verse 15. The foolish man builds on sand. He builds with human things like he would build a business. The man who built the Church with human methods, like most Churches are built today, with entertainment, rock bands, picnics and money will see his work DEVOURED by the FIRE. He will, before all the other Christians (for it is displayed) be shown what a slothful, disobedient and foolish man he was. And besides seeing his work turn to ashes before the whole Church, besides being humiliated and shown for a dumb-ass, HE THEN SUFFERS A LOSS. The grammar shows THREE LOSSES. (i) His WORK is LOST, (ii) his reputation is TRASHED, and (iii) then he suffers another LOSS - he is not allowed to particpate in the Millennial Kingdom for 1,000 years.
    Verse 15. What does it mean "saved". That means that some great threat was before him and he escapes it. What is the great threat before man? THE LAKE OF FIRE - PERDITION! Will this man go to the Lake of Fire? NO! When he believed in Christ the work of Christ is applied to him and God will not strike back twice. So the Lake of Fire is escaped. His salvation by Christ's death can never be lost, but HE CAN BE CHASTISED!(Heb.12:5-8). In ALL the parables of faithful and unfaithful SERVANTS, the SERVANTS STAY SERVANTS, but they are CHASTISED for the Millennium. The Virgins are Virgins when the lived. The are called "Virgins" while they slept. They are still Virgins when they are refused entry into the Wedding Feast. They are still Virgins when they go away to "BUY" (pay a price) for extra oil, and they are still called virgins when they are again refused entry. A Christian cannot lose His salvation.Once a Virgin, always a Virgin. BUT HE CAN, AND WILL, BE CHASTISED.
    Verse 15. If he is already "saved", what means this ADDITIONAL "saved" BY FIRE? This extra being "saved" does not pertain to the Lake of Fire. It pertains to the end of the Millennium. Of Christ's Bride it is said by scripture in Ephesians 5:25-27;

    25 "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
    26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
    27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."


    The question is, will ALL Christians be "without spot", "without blemish" and be "holy" when Christ returns. Obviously NOT. The text we discuss show Christian as FAILURES! The Parables show Christians as FAILED SERVANTS and FAILED VIRGINS! The guest of the Wedding Feast did not have the right Garment. He was blemished. Ananias and Saphira were not HOLY. It is clear the when our Lord Jesus returns, His Bride will still have many problems. So when is this dealt with? It is dealt with during the Millennium. The second "saved" of verse 15 is not "saved" from the Lake of Fire, BUT SAVED FROM THE FILTH OF SPOTS, BLEMISHES AND UNHOLINESS - the things that you are chastised for and were banned from the Kingdom for! The filthy Christian who failed at the Judgement seat does not go to the Lake of Fire - which is DESTRUCTION. He goes through FURTHER TRAINING to burn away "spots, blemishes" and "unholiness". It is FIRE, a PURGING FIRE, but it does not DESTROY. It REFINES! Peter spoke of fiery trials in this age. Paul spoke of Tribulation in this age. The author of Hebrews speaks of CHASTISEMENT in this age. The naughty, slothful, unfaithful Christians were NOT exercised by these things in this age and were found unfit for the 1,000 year Kingdom. SO they must pass through the training again. This time they cannot avoid the FIRE of REFINING. They are "saved" SO AS BY FIRE FROM THEIR OWN FILTHINESS AND SPOTS AND BLEMISHES, so that Christ can present Himself with His spotless Bride after the Millennium (Rev.21:1-2).

    My advice to you is to stop focusing on "salvation" when we discuss Baptism. Salvation is by FAITH and we are all SAVED already. The burning question is not whether we are justified IN Christ or not, or sanctified in Christ or not. These all are a given. They are established, They are by FAITH and we received them when we BELIEVED. But now we must go on to MATURITY. WHAT FOR? FOR THE KINGDOM FOR WHICH WE WERE SAVED, JUSTIFIED AND SANCTIFIED. We do not ever forget the great work of Christ on Golgotha, but it is a foundation. Now we must BUILD - BUILD THE CHURCH, BUILD THE KINGDOM and BUILD OUR DISPOSITION to that of Christ's. That is OUR WORK and THAT IS WHAT WE ARE REWARDED OR CHASTISED FOR AT THE BEMA.
    I forgot how you answered whether or not you value commentary. Since your posts are commentary of your interpretation of scripture, let me post others:
    MattHenry:

    There are others whose works shall be burnt (1 Cor. 3:15), whose corrupt opinions and doctrines, or vain inventions and usages in the worship of God, shall be discovered, disowned, and rejected, in that day—shall be first manifested to be corrupt, and then disapproved of God and rejected. Note, The great day will pluck off all disguises, and make things appear as they are: He whose work shall be burnt will suffer loss. If he have built upon the right foundation wood and hay and stubble, he will suffer loss. His weakness and corruption will be the lessening of his glory, though he may in the general have been an honest and an upright Christian. This part of his work will be lost, turning no way to his advantage, though he himself may be saved. Observe, Those who hold the foundation of Christianity, though they build hay, wood, and stubble, upon it, may be saved. This may help to enlarge our charity. We should not reprobate men for their weakness: for nothing will damn men but wickedness. He shall be saved, yet so as by fire, saved out of the fire. He himself shall be snatched out of that flame which will consume his work.
    Ya know what... here is a link instead. You aren't allowing me to talk with you, nor anyone else for that matter (all your foes) so maybe you can allow all these people to talk to you about your position.

    https://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_...hians/3-15.htm - A list of various commentaries dealing with 1 Cor 3:15
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  14. #344

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by znpaaneah View Post
    This is a good analogy but I would change Canada to the Ark. Those who believe the word of God and are in the ark are saved, those who do not believe are condemned.

    or another Biblical analogy -- those who believe God's word and keep the passover are saved, those who don't believe are condemned.


    In both cases believing God's word requires some action -- entering the ark or putting blood on the doorposts. Fail to do those actions and there will be consequences, but not condemnation.

    yessss amen that is faith to hear what God said , believe it ....and therefore do it ....

    " God said to Moses stretch forth thy hand to the heavens ...that's there may be darknes

    Moses stretched forth his hand ....and there WAS darkness

    God told Noah there's a flood coming , you build an ark and I'll make my covenant with you....

    Noah did what Gid commanded him .....the flood came as was spoken , and the waters bore up the ark unto thier salvation...and he made his covenant with Noah...

    all through the entire bible , people operate by this faith , God says something ...the person believes Gods Word , does what he said to do ...and receives what he says they will receive


    it's faith to actually believe the gospel preached by Jesus Christ . The gospel contains every single promise we have in him , like eternal life , forgiveness and remission of sin , receiving the Holy Ghost, what we most assuredly believe ect...if we will not believe things like

    " go get baptized in the name of Jesus , and God will remit your sins " ....then no one will do it ....but like everything it's what God said to do and he doesn't change ....

  15. #345
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Baptism is a ritual, and only a symbolic demonstration of a Salvation we obtain *before* Water Baptism. Water Baptism symbolizes, as a public proclamation, the Spirit Baptism within.

    As such, Water Baptism is not an essential part of Salvation, but only a public confession, telling the world in which we lived that we are no longer living that way, but rather, living according to Christ. Water Baptism was not the essential thing. Inward change was the essential thing. Water Baptism was only an external testimony to the public that we had *already been saved.*

    Baptism is not necessary for salvation. Why did Jesus tell us to do it? It was a reasonable way to publicly proclaim our initiation into the Christian Faith. Jesus wanted us to not just declare our salvation--he wanted us to publicly declare it in an open ritual--not as if the ritual was necessary, but only as one means of showing the world our change of heart.


    Salvation has always been a matter of faith. If not, then all the people who ever lived before Christian Baptism are damned! But Christian Baptism is a testimony to the world of a different way of living that ensures Salvation, through faith in Christ and in a new way of life.


    Those who believe in Christ, and who demonstrate a new way of life, will be saved. This means that all those whose faith saved them, and make their Christianity a public proclamation through water baptism, will also be saved. This means that all those whose faith saved them, get baptized, and live a Christian life, as opposed to the ways of the world, will be saved.


    The ritual of Baptism is not a necessary ingredient in Salvation. It is just the recommended ritual Jesus advocated in his time, to testify to the world a message he wanted the world to hear. It was important in its time, due to the preparatory work John the Baptist had done, to promote repentance.


    Repentance is still an important precursor to embracing Christian Salvation. But Salvation comes not by Water Baptism, but rather, by Spirit Baptism, which is what Water Baptism represents. It is accepting Christ by faith, and by making the associated internal changes conducive to Christian living.

    Water Baptism is purely ritual--just one means of proclaiming our faith--and not necessary for Salvation. Christian Salvation is strictly internal and by faith. Once Christianity has been established in the heart by *Spirit Baptism,* then Christianity may be demonstrated outwardly in a variety of ways--by good works, by public testimonials, by baptism, by catechism, by going to Bible School, by participating in Christian forums. The important thing is that we have Christ living on the inside, and that we make that commitment permanent!
    Your opinion is duly noted, but it is not Biblical in any way. Water immersion symbolized our death, from which we arise to walk a new life (Col 2:12). It was commanded of Saul after he had sat, blind and fasting, for three days so that his sins would be forgiven (Acts 22:16). It was the last command Jesus gave before His ascension into Heaven (Matt 28:19-20).

    As an example of the necessity of water immersion, I point you to Naaman. Read his story in 2 Kings 5. What was the power that cleansed him of his leprosy? Obviously, the answer is the Power of God. When was his leprosy cleansed? The answer is, after he was obedient to the command of God through His servant Elisha. Now I ask you, would Naaman have been cleansed if he had not obeyed? The obvious answer is, NO!! He would have lived the rest of his life and died as a leper. This is an obvious example, but there are many more in Scripture where the blessing was only received after the recipient was obedient to the command of God. We also see many examples of people who were denied the blessing because they were not obedient to the command.

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