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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #361
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    The belief that demons have in God, is not provided by grace and faith. The belief that mankind can have in God IS provided by grace and faith. So again... are we gonna stop with the "the demons believe" card?
    I don't understand your reasoning. Our belief is given (provided) to us by grace?

  2. #362
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Does Romans 6:4 contain the words "remove sins"?
    Does Romans 6:4 promise eternal life?


    You ADD TO SCRIPTURE!

    Romans 6:4 STATES that we are buried into the death of Christ, NOT BY CRUCIFIXION, but symbolically by IMMERSION IN WATER. Why? To TERMINATE THE OLD. This then enables us to WALK in the newness of LIFE. What Life? The HUMAN Life of Christ INFUSED INTO US. The example is Israel (1st Cor.10:1-11). They were BAPTIZED by walking between the water with the cloud over them (fully immersed) so that which they did in Egypt (worship idols and build Satan's treasure cities) is TERMINATED. From that time on they WALKED in God's Law. The "LIFE" here is Christ's HUMAN LIFE which was perfect and pleasing to God. God's purpose is not to make thousands of little gods. His purpose is to make thousands LIKE JESUS (Rom.8:29)
    Your failure to discern what the heart of the passage (Rom 6:4) is, is most dumbfounding even though you rightfully articulated it less the Israel analogy. I don't know how you can interpret a text correctly (in this case) and yet fail to understand how it applies to a believer?

  3. #363
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    Question for you: When was Saul, later known as Paul the Apostle, saved?
    Paul was saved when he called on the Name of the Lord... just as anyone is instantly saved the moment they call on the name of the Lord.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  4. #364
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Paul was saved when he called on the Name of the Lord... just as anyone is instantly saved the moment they call on the name of the Lord.
    When did he do call on Jesus Name?

  5. #365
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    I don't understand your reasoning. Our belief is given (provided) to us by grace?
    If there is no grace nor no faith, there is no possibility of salvic belief in God.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  6. #366
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    If there is no grace nor no faith, there is no possibility of salvic belief in God.
    Grace is the gift of God to us. We don't deserve it nor do we earn it. Faith is our belief put into action. According to James, the demons believe that there is one God, and tremble because of it. But they either refuse to act, or it is too late for them to act (they are no longer living (I believe that the demons are the evil dead, but that is a discussion for another thread)). So you are correct that they will not be saved. But they do believe, and it does them no good. The inference in James is that belief by itself does us no good either. You can believe that the chair will hold your weight all day long, but if you don't have faith and sit down on it, your feet will continue to hurt from standing all day.

  7. #367
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    When you say "Jesus" you invoke nearly 1,200 chapters of information about the most sublime and complicated Man and God ever. Luke 24:27; "And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself."
    You want it simple. Paul teaches in Ephesians 3:18-19;
    "That ye (Christians) ...
    18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
    19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God."


    C'mon brothers. The smallest thing is an atom - and what complexity! Think of the Creator and appreciate how many millions of times more complex He is. Don't reduce the bible to one Chapter. Open it up. Eat it. Digest it. It is a most exciting revelation, the bottom of which we will need eternity to reach.
    You are missing the point of what Slug1 and I were discussing. Our God is unfathomable, agreed. This line of discourse started with your idea of what should be conveyed to an unbeliever seeking to understand and convert. Contrary to your idea of presenting them with a rather complex and confusing list of what they must do to be saved, we are arguing that this approach is wrong. The scriptures are clear that the route is simply to believe and confess Christ as Lord and Saviour.

    Also, your remark about the complexities of God's nature belongs to those who already believe and are on the way to spiritual maturity. Those who no longer drink milk but now crunch bones.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    Grace is the gift of God to us. We don't deserve it nor do we earn it. Faith is our belief put into action. According to James, the demons believe that there is one God, and tremble because of it. But they either refuse to act, or it is too late for them to act (they are no longer living (I believe that the demons are the evil dead, but that is a discussion for another thread)). So you are correct that they will not be saved. But they do believe, and it does them no good. The inference in James is that belief by itself does us no good either. You can believe that the chair will hold your weight all day long, but if you don't have faith and sit down on it, your feet will continue to hurt from standing all day.
    Your exegesis is in error then concerning belief alone doesn't save. If belief alone doesn't save, then Paul was wrong in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  9. #369
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    When did he do call on Jesus Name?
    Acts 9:4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

    5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”

    Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. [a]It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

    6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”

    Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

    When Paul submitted to Jesus in understanding of who He is, and in this submission to Jesus... calling Him Lord that second time was where he got saved by Jesus.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  10. #370
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Your exegesis is in error then concerning belief alone doesn't save. If belief alone doesn't save, then Paul was wrong in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16.
    And if you take that one passage as your entire basis for yours, then you miss a universe of teaching in other places in Scripture. That was where Paul BEGAN to teach the jailer. He didn't end there, verses 32-33.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Another brother who changes words. We speak of the "Necessity of Baptism" and you turn to an unbeliever "accepting Christ".
    There is a post where you listed a number of 'do's' an unbeliever seeking to convert must abide by before he's saved. I disagreed, hence the reference to "accepting Christ".

  12. #372
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Acts 9:4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

    5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”

    Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. [a]It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

    6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”

    Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

    When Paul submitted to Jesus in understanding of who He is, and in this submission to Jesus... calling Him Lord that second time was where he got saved by Jesus.
    Not entirely correct. You only have half of the story in this passage. If you look over to Paul retelling the story in Acts 22, you see Paul sitting, blind and fasting, and waiting on word from God. God sends him Ananias. Ananias tells him, "Then he (Ananias) said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’"

    Paul was still in sin three days after the passage you cited. He was still lost and still had not called on Jesus Name. He called on Jesus, and was saved, when he was baptized, and washed away his sins at the same instant.

  13. #373
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    Not entirely correct. You only have half of the story in this passage. If you look over to Paul retelling the story in Acts 22, you see Paul sitting, blind and fasting, and waiting on word from God. God sends him Ananias. Ananias tells him, "Then he (Ananias) said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’"

    Paul was still in sin three days after the passage you cited. He was still lost and still had not called on Jesus Name. He called on Jesus, and was saved, when he was baptized, and washed away his sins at the same instant.
    While this may be how you interpret Acts 22, this is how Paul teaches what happened:

    1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

    So WHEN did all this happen? Upon their surrender over to Jesus or upon a man submerging them in water?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  14. #374
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    While this may be how you interpret Acts 22, this is how Paul teaches what happened:

    1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

    So WHEN did all this happen? Upon their surrender over to Jesus or upon a man submerging them in water?
    According to Romans 6, Acts 22, Col 2, and many other passages, it happened when they were buried with Christ in baptism to have their sins washed away, and to arise to a new life. NOT before. Their surrender to Jesus is evidenced by their immersion. This is not a difficult concept, it is simply obedience to God's command in Scripture. You can take bits and pieces of Scripture all day long and remain lost. Or you can take Scripture as a whole, accept every part of It, and come away saved through obedience to God.

    Many people today go on and on about our relationship with Christ (and it is important), and whether or not WE know God. But the greater, more important, question is: "Does God know us?" Gal 4:9.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    While this may be how you interpret Acts 22, this is how Paul teaches what happened:

    1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

    So WHEN did all this happen? Upon their surrender over to Jesus or upon a man submerging them in water?
    According to Romans 6, Acts 22, Col 2, and many other passages, it happened when they were buried with Christ in baptism to have their sins washed away, and to arise to a new life. NOT before. Their surrender to Jesus is evidenced by their immersion. This is not a difficult concept, it is simply obedience to God's command in Scripture. You can take bits and pieces of Scripture all day long and remain lost. Or you can take Scripture as a whole, accept every part of It, and come away saved through obedience to God.

    Many people today go on and on about our relationship with Christ (and it is important), and whether or not WE know God. But the greater, more important, question is: "Does God know us?" Gal 4:9.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    And you ignore the verses to which I referred. Not only does immersion symbolize our death, it is water immersion from which we arise as new creatures having been born again through the symbolic immersion in Christ' Blood. This is declared twice in Paul's writing, Rom 6:1-7, and Col 2:9-15. And the way he speaks of baptism shows clearly that it was preached routinely in the first century as a common (as in often done, not as in ordinary), necessary, and required part of rebirth in Christ.





    What is the one thing common to all the things asked of everyone in Scripture (ie: the rich young ruler and Naaman)? Answer: give up whatever it is that comes between you and God and surrender your life to Him. The rich young ruler valued his wealth more than he valued salvation through Christ. That is why he went away sad. At first Naaman valued his pride more than he valued his health, but his servant convinced him that his health was of more value. And when he obeyed he rejoiced because he found his health and a beginning of a relationship with God. The same holds true for us today. Whatever it is that is standing between us and God needs to be cast aside in order for us to have the relationship He wants with us. For some it is wealth, for others it is pride, for others it is the lie that Satan weaves that we can be saved simply by believing in Jesus. Belief is essential, but it is just the beginning, not the end of the journey.
    Until you can actually show me where we are differing in beliefs, I cannot discuss this with you. 1) I did respond to your verse/statement about Water Baptism. I fully agree it *symbolizes* Salvation, or what I call "Spirit Baptism." 2) I agree that faith in Christ must lead to obedience, and may include Water Baptism. Where's the argument?

    I might add that I really like your comparison of the Rich Young Ruler with Naaman. Great point!

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