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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #391
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    It can't be more important for God to know us than for us to know God. Both are equally important. The one requires the other.
    I will get to the rest of your comments in a bit, but:

    No, the one does not require the other. We can "know" God all day long, but if He says at Judgement, "I never knew you.", that leaves you suffering in Hell for all eternity. It is very important that God know you. We can say we love God, and know God, all day long, but if He doesn't know us as His children, we are lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    It can't be more important for God to know us than for us to know God. Both are equally important. The one requires the other.
    I will get to the rest of your comments in a bit, but:

    No, the one does not require the other. We can "know" God all day long, but if He says at Judgement, "I never knew you.", that leaves you suffering in Hell for all eternity. It is very important that God know you. We can say we love God, and know God, all day long, but if He doesn't know us as His children, we are lost.

  2. #392
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    I will get to the rest of your comments in a bit, but:

    No, the one does not require the other. We can "know" God all day long, but if He says at Judgement, "I never knew you.", that leaves you suffering in Hell for all eternity. It is very important that God know you. We can say we love God, and know God, all day long, but if He doesn't know us as His children, we are lost.
    That's true. What matters is the *kind* of knowledge God has of us. Nevertheless, it is as important that God know us *in the right way* as our need to know Him.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    That's true. What matters is the *kind* of knowledge God has of us. Nevertheless, it is as important that God know us *in the right way* as our need to know Him.
    Randy, don't forget God thought of every single person before creation. You believe in predestination be it for His glory through works of righteousness, or for His glory through works of unrighteousness. It is not that He knows "us" in the right way because He knows us better than we'll ever know ourselves. As I always say, there is a balance.

    It is in how we know Him. Do we know Him by acknowledgment (just believe He exists) or is it through belief that one knows Him with surrender/acceptance of Him?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  4. #394
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Randy, don't forget God thought of every single person before creation. You believe in predestination be it for His glory through works of righteousness, or for His glory through works of unrighteousness. It is not that He knows "us" in the right way because He knows us better than we'll ever know ourselves. As I always say, there is a balance.

    It is in how we know Him. Do we know Him by acknowledgment (just believe He exists) or is it through belief that one knows Him with surrender/acceptance of Him?
    To be honest, brother, I'm not even sure what we're arguing about? Doug Brents appears to be concerned about what comes 1st or what is more important? I've already admitted that God loved us 1st, and that He knew us 1st. I'm only arguing that it's equally important that we know God and love Him. This is, for me, a non-argument, and I actually am trying to figure out what the concern really is?

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    To be honest, brother, I'm not even sure what we're arguing about? Doug Brents appears to be concerned about what comes 1st or what is more important? I've already admitted that God loved us 1st, and that He knew us 1st. I'm only arguing that it's equally important that we know God and love Him. This is, for me, a non-argument, and I actually am trying to figure out what the concern really is?
    The concern is this.

    Some say Christ redeems/saves/justifies a person when one believes in Him. Others say Christ does not redeem/save/justifies a person until that person decides to do ONE specific work. Until that work is done, they are not a part of the Body.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  6. #396
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    To be honest, brother, I'm not even sure what we're arguing about? Doug Brents appears to be concerned about what comes 1st or what is more important? I've already admitted that God loved us 1st, and that He knew us 1st. I'm only arguing that it's equally important that we know God and love Him. This is, for me, a non-argument, and I actually am trying to figure out what the concern really is?
    The concern is this.

    Some say Christ redeems/saves/justifies a person when one believes in Him. Others say Christ does not redeem/save/justifies a person until that person decides to do ONE specific work. Until that work is done, they are not a part of the Body.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  7. #397
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    The concern is this.

    Some say Christ redeems/saves/justifies a person when one believes in Him. Others say Christ does not redeem/save/justifies a person until that person decides to do ONE specific work. Until that work is done, they are not a part of the Body.
    This is how I think it should be looked at from the Concern listed above.

    1. If a person wants to obey the gospel I think scripture points out more than once and in every conversion example that this is part of the process no doubt or question about it. It has significance for various reasons. 1. God ask for it. 2. It was done immediately in scripture. 3. Multiple passages compare it to the D,B, & R of Christ and that it saves us.

    2. With the above being stated I think anyone who is a Christian should not say its not needed, unnecessary, insert reason not to do it. Otherwise I would think that would be a slap into the face of scripture and things taught in the NT.

    3. Lastly I will say that when it comes to salvation, and when a person is saved... doesn't matter. Why? Because if Timmy wanted to obey the gospel and lets say died in the car on the way to water, or insert crazy set of events here... that God is judge, he is merciful, righteous, just and loving God. So in these freak made up events or any that may be real... God is judge and will do what is right, thus I don't need to worry about what ifs... are they neat to ponder... yep are they important no.

    So in my mind, is Baptism important, needed, should be done. Yes... obviously its listed in the NT for a reason its something we see every convert do, so in that vein to ignore it would be a misstep in my opinion. However to try and pin down the second a person is a Christian is a waste of time and energy because we should all realize Gods got this. Always has always will, and as long as things are in his control and in his hands I nor people in whatever odd circumstances have to worry.

    I know I have heard a many of a story or what if of someone dying on the way to get baptized... I am almost at the point that I think if go down to the river I might see a flood of dead bodies on the way there! LOL
    Isaiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" We should always be willing to do God's bidding, seek ye first the kingdom of God.

    I use Linux because I don't like Windows

  8. #398
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    The concern is this.

    Some say Christ redeems/saves/justifies a person when one believes in Him. Others say Christ does not redeem/save/justifies a person until that person decides to do ONE specific work. Until that work is done, they are not a part of the Body.
    Yes, that is the whole issue I've tried to address, that there is a work that is equal to belief. It is not a work that *justifies.* But it is a work that is required to express that belief, to make clear that confession. Is is often through various *works* that beliefs are verified.

    For example, the thief on the cross verified his belief in Jesus simply by confessing it. He couldn't do any work because he was nailed to a cross. But it is assumed that had he still had his old life, he would've given up his old ways, and adopted Christ's ways.

    And then there is the Rich Young Ruler, who I've been talking about elsewhere. Jesus positively demanded of him a kind of "work"--not a work that *justifies,* but a work that verified his belief. It constituted a *confession.* It was absolutely required of him that he give up his wealth, as proof that he was giving up his old ways for the ways of Jesus. He couldn't do it, but that's what Jesus required of him as an individual.

    We all may be asked to *do something* to verify our faith. It doesn't *justify* us in the sense that we work out our own redemption. Redemption took place on the cross. Rather, we accept that redemption by believing it, confessing it, and showing it by various acts indicating true repentance. If it isn't shown to be true repentance, then there never is genuine faith, because there is no change in life. And God determines what kind of work it is necessary we do to prove our faith.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by uric3 View Post
    This is how I think it should be looked at from the Concern listed above.

    1. If a person wants to obey the gospel I think scripture points out more than once and in every conversion example that this is part of the process no doubt or question about it. It has significance for various reasons. 1. God ask for it. 2. It was done immediately in scripture. 3. Multiple passages compare it to the D,B, & R of Christ and that it saves us.

    2. With the above being stated I think anyone who is a Christian should not say its not needed, unnecessary, insert reason not to do it. Otherwise I would think that would be a slap into the face of scripture and things taught in the NT.

    3. Lastly I will say that when it comes to salvation, and when a person is saved... doesn't matter. Why? Because if Timmy wanted to obey the gospel and lets say died in the car on the way to water, or insert crazy set of events here... that God is judge, he is merciful, righteous, just and loving God. So in these freak made up events or any that may be real... God is judge and will do what is right, thus I don't need to worry about what ifs... are they neat to ponder... yep are they important no.

    So in my mind, is Baptism important, needed, should be done. Yes... obviously its listed in the NT for a reason its something we see every convert do, so in that vein to ignore it would be a misstep in my opinion. However to try and pin down the second a person is a Christian is a waste of time and energy because we should all realize Gods got this. Always has always will, and as long as things are in his control and in his hands I nor people in whatever odd circumstances have to worry.

    I know I have heard a many of a story or what if of someone dying on the way to get baptized... I am almost at the point that I think if go down to the river I might see a flood of dead bodies on the way there! LOL
    I agree with you in principle about the need to obey, to verify our faith. I just don't apply that to Water Baptism. Nowhere in the Scriptures is Water Baptism a required form of obedience to verify faith for Salvation.

    It was just a common practice, and the way Christianity was initiated in history, both among the Jews and among the Gentiles. Nothing indicates it is part of the Gospel itself, or part of Salvation. It simply depicted Salvation as an initiation ceremony, comprising a public confession.

    Confessing Christianity is an important part of our Christian obedience, but nothing says that confession must take the form of Water Baptism. The important kind of baptism was said to be Spirit Baptism, in which we are spiritually baptized into Christ!

    Water Baptism is still an acceptable way to convert from a pagan lifestyle to Christianity. But nothing ever said it was necessary, except that Jesus gave that mandate to his original apostles. It *initiated* Christianity into the world. Those like myself who were raised Christians from birth have no need whatsoever to be baptized, to show conversion, since we weren't converted--we were raised in the Faith.

    Granted--some raised in the Faith were not "born again," and still had to be born again later. Many, however, were raised in the Faith from birth, and had no obvious example of going from unbelief to belief. No need to get Water Baptized. (It's grievous that many modern Christian converts would insist that all Christians only have their own experience of Christian conversion to be "true Christians.")

    Personally, I wandered away from Christian living for awhile, although I never gave up talking with the Lord and going to church. When I repented and returned to the Lord, I chose to get Water Baptized. It wasn't necessary, but it did show I was returning to the Faith. I had been dedicated, through Water Baptism, as an infant. But how can it hurt to get Water Baptized again?

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I had been dedicated, through Water Baptism, as an infant. But how can it hurt to get Water Baptized again?
    Water baptism is an expression/act of one's own faith in Christ. So yeah, anyone who received an infant dedication still has to grow up and make a choice to either believe in Christ or not to believe in Christ. Once the choice to believe is made and Jesus has justified (saved) them, then they are to also move in faith. Again, the first action in faith one is afforded by scripture, is to be baptized in water.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I had been dedicated, through Water Baptism, as an infant. But how can it hurt to get Water Baptized again?
    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Water baptism is an expression/act of one's own faith in Christ. So yeah, anyone who received an infant dedication still has to grow up and make a choice to either believe in Christ or not to believe in Christ. Once the choice to believe is made and Jesus has justified (saved) them, then they are to also move in faith. Again, the first action in faith one is afforded by scripture, is to be baptized in water.
    To me baptism IS NOT an expression of one's own faith in Christ. It is a sign of God's covenant with man, of Him choosing for Him a people to be in relationship with Him. It is God saying to the one being baptized you are mine. This is something that will not change, God's decision. This is why one does not baptize oneself again, for God has not changed and that which He had begun in you, He will finish. The faith God had given you even as an infant, is the same faith, just matured, when you eventually repent and take the Lord as your Saviour. So when you were baptized as an infant, you already had the faith and you do not have to be baptized again. Again baptism is a sign of what God did and promised and not what I had done. To be obedient to God's covenant one have to baptize your child, otherwise you are in disobedience and treats your child as a unbeliever.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    To me baptism IS NOT an expression of one's own faith in Christ. It is a sign of God's covenant with man, of Him choosing for Him a people to be in relationship with Him. It is God saying to the one being baptized you are mine. This is something that will not change, God's decision. This is why one does not baptize oneself again, for God has not changed and that which He had begun in you, He will finish. The faith God had given you even as an infant, is the same faith, just matured, when you eventually repent and take the Lord as your Saviour. So when you were baptized as an infant, you already had the faith and you do not have to be baptized again. Again baptism is a sign of what God did and promised and not what I had done. To be obedient to God's covenant one have to baptize your child, otherwise you are in disobedience and treats your child as a unbeliever.
    K, a man who is NOT infant dedicated, has never stepped foot into a church, has told Christians in the past to leave him alone when they attempted to witness to him, etc, has been listening to a Christian radio station for some time. One day on the way home from work, that man is listening to a message that is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, one he's heard several times over the past few months. This day however, he pulls off into a rest stop, turns off the car and really listens to the witnessing of Jesus Christ. When the speaker asks that if anyone desires to have Christ come into their heart because of one's belief in Him... all they need to do is profess their belief in repenting of their sin (acknowledgment that they are a sinner and this sin separates them from Christ), profess that Jesus Christ is their Lord/Savior and accept Him in their life.

    Now, is this man saved by Christ or not?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    K, a man who is NOT infant dedicated, has never stepped foot into a church, has told Christians in the past to leave him alone when they attempted to witness to him, etc, has been listening to a Christian radio station for some time. One day on the way home from work, that man is listening to a message that is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, one he's heard several times over the past few months. This day however, he pulls off into a rest stop, turns off the car and really listens to the witnessing of Jesus Christ. When the speaker asks that if anyone desires to have Christ come into their heart because of one's belief in Him... all they need to do is profess their belief in repenting of their sin (acknowledgment that they are a sinner and this sin separates them from Christ), profess that Jesus Christ is their Lord/Savior and accept Him in their life.

    Now, is this man saved by Christ or not?
    1Jn 5:13* These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.*

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Water baptism is an expression/act of one's own faith in Christ. So yeah, anyone who received an infant dedication still has to grow up and make a choice to either believe in Christ or not to believe in Christ. Once the choice to believe is made and Jesus has justified (saved) them, then they are to also move in faith. Again, the first action in faith one is afforded by scripture, is to be baptized in water.
    I'm not really sure where you're coming from? I don't know whether you're insisting that someone cannot be a genuine Christian from infancy, or if there is some kind of "age of accountability" in which a decision must be made for Christ?

    I can only describe my own experience. I do not have a "conversion experience." I was raised a Christian from infancy. I remember as a 4 or 5 year old being excited about singing "Jesus loves me." I've gone to church my entire life, prayed my whole life, knew God existed my whole life, lived the Christian life my whole life.

    However, in my teens I compromised, and fell away--not from faith, but from living an exemplary Christian life. I went to church and at the same time drank excessively and used drugs, among other things, involving perversion, theft, and other wrongs, such as not respecting human authorities. I felt very, very guilty, and it was guilt that drove me back to a fresh commitment to Christ.

    I got Water Baptized not for conversion to Christ but rather, for infant dedication, and for repentance in coming back to Christ. I never had a need to be Water Baptized for initial conversion to Christ. I was raised that way.

    I share this to emphasize the non-importance of Water Baptism in comparison with being spiritually baptized into Christ, which is the actual conversion experience. Scriptures say the same thing. Water Baptism is perfectly acceptable for new converts to Christianity. It is not necessary for those who have never had to convert, who were raised genuine Christians from infancy. There is no need to repent from being what you are not, to convert to being what you already are.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not really sure where you're coming from? I don't know whether you're insisting that someone cannot be a genuine Christian from infancy, or if there is some kind of "age of accountability" in which a decision must be made for Christ?

    I can only describe my own experience. I do not have a "conversion experience." I was raised a Christian from infancy. I remember as a 4 or 5 year old being excited about singing "Jesus loves me." I've gone to church my entire life, prayed my whole life, knew God existed my whole life, lived the Christian life my whole life.

    However, in my teens I compromised, and fell away--not from faith, but from living an exemplary Christian life. I went to church and at the same time drank excessively and used drugs, among other things, involving perversion, theft, and other wrongs, such as not respecting human authorities. I felt very, very guilty, and it was guilt that drove me back to a fresh commitment to Christ.

    I got Water Baptized not for conversion to Christ but rather, for infant dedication, and for repentance in coming back to Christ. I never had a need to be Water Baptized for initial conversion to Christ. I was raised that way.

    I share this to emphasize the non-importance of Water Baptism in comparison with being spiritually baptized into Christ, which is the actual conversion experience. Scriptures say the same thing. Water Baptism is perfectly acceptable for new converts to Christianity. It is not necessary for those who have never had to convert, who were raised genuine Christians from infancy. There is no need to repent from being what you are not, to convert to being what you already are.
    Belief is a person's choice. You nor anyone can choose for another person. Baptism is a person's choice of "THEIR" faith. You nor anyone can baptize a person (an infant) without THEIR faithful decision. An infant baptism is for the parents in dedicating their child to Christ. It is the parents promise to God that they will raise the child in an environment that is godly. This infant dedication with or without any baptism got the infant wet only. That child will still have to make THEIR choice to believe unto Christ and they are saved. In time, prayerfully immediately, choose to be baptized in water.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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