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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #421
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Originally Posted by Doug Brents

    That may very well be true, but ""Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Matt 7:21

    Let's take a step back then... when YOU heard the Gospel and when YOU called Jesus, "Lord" was your belief in Jesus Christ?
    Slug1--out

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  2. #422
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggie View Post
    When Jesus was baptized it said he saw the spirit of God entered him ....

    And then later Jesus said do you really desire to be baptized by the baptism that I am baptized by ?
    And the people said yea! Then Jesus said ok let it be...

    Ok so whats really happening here ?

    You can be saved sure. You don't need to be baptized sure. All true.

    If you think its magic or however you are mocking the idea.... Just consider that Jesus knew he had to be baptized and John when he saw Jesus he said, But I am the one who needs to be baptized by you.

    God has kept men alive here to baptize for thousands of years since then.
    And great houses were built and defended by blood for it.
    I'm not sure you're quite accurate here.
    1) The Spirit alighted upon Jesus, and did not actually "enter him."
    2) The "baptism" that Jesus expressed in Mark 10.38 obviously refers to a different kind of baptism other than Water Baptism.
    3) I'm not mocking the idea of Water Baptism--I'm ridiculing the idea that Water Baptism bestows, by necessity, a mystical endowment. In the case of Jesus he did receive the sign of the Holy Spirit alighting upon him. In the case of Christians, we should've already received the Holy Spirit at conversion. Water Baptism for the converted Christian, therefore, is purely a confession of faith, given in a public format.
    4) Jesus had to be Water Baptized to fulfill what John the Baptist's baptism of repentance was meant to lead to, namely the baptism of Christians into the Spirit of Christ. Jesus had to do this as a model of what we do when we get Water Baptized. Jesus did not have to get Water Baptized to repent of sins that he did not have!
    5) God has not kept men alive to be Water Baptized. He has kept them alive because He intends to fulfill He original mandate for Man, to cause them to bring His judgment to the whole earth. Blood is not spilled by the Church to preserve Water Baptism. Rather, it is spilled in defense of Christ.

  3. #423
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    The concern is this.

    Some say Christ redeems/saves/justifies a person when one believes in Him. Others say Christ does not redeem/save/justifies a person until that person decides to do ONE specific work. Until that work is done, they are not a part of the Body.


    I believe I have a fair idea of at least person who has proposed this doctrine. But I'd say, it is false and incorrect.

  4. #424
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    [/COLOR]

    I believe I have a fair idea of at least person who has proposed this doctrine. But I'd say, it is false and incorrect.
    This oversimplifies the problem, as I describe it. If we have a different kind of "work," other than the "work of Redemption," then certainly Jesus is "guilty" of asking for certain "works" in order to dispense Salvation. For example, he required of the Rich Young Ruler that he give up his wealth, which is clearly a "work."

    So it really matters what kind of "work" you're talking about? The most common use of "works" would, of course, be prohibited, because it would amount to "earning one's own Salvation!" We do not earn, by works, our way into heaven. We must receive the merit that Christ applied in his work of redeeming us, mimicking and living in his spiritual righteousness, but certainly not participating in the actual work that redeemed us!

  5. #425
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    You are close. The order though is interesting.
    Do we believe and then repent, or repent and then believe?
    Can we truly believe in something without repentance, yet what leads to the repentance in the first place, if we have no belief?
    I see scripture points to the Holy Spirit convicting us of sin, which causes us to repent, and then we believe.
    This is why belief alone is NOT enough and (at least one reason) why demons are not saved.
    The process starts with what God is doing by the Holy Spirit, moves on to a response from ourselves of repentance, which then leads God to bring us to belief.
    Repentance itself requires acknowledgement (knowledge is not the same as belief, though they are connected) that Jesus Christ is Lord and is able to cleanse us, and so we make confession of His Name at the time of repentance.
    Baptism though is simply an immersion IN Him.
    It is NOT about water, though water may symbolise this immersion to BOTH ourselves and the world.
    We John the Baptist, baptism in water symbolised repentance, for they did NOT have repentance in Jesus. This is why Acts 19:4 notes about that baptism, which was to be a witness for the people to then believe in the One who was (at that time) to come. In Acts 8 we have the note that people were not baptised in the Holy Spirit, though they had been baptised in water in Jesus Name. They did NOT have the FULL immersion (baptism) that Jesus told His disciples they should do.

    Water Baptism therefore is NOT of any significance for salvation, but does have significance for witnessing the truth of repentance and of Jesus.
    I had not put the acts into any specific order. I simply listed them as being essential, according to Scripture, as leading to or being necessary for salvation. I do not think that belief comes after repentance. There is no incentive to turn from a sinful life toward a Godly life without the belief that there is a better result in the next life as a reward for that choice. Belief must therefore come first. Romans 10:14 gives a chronology for at least that part. Hearing leads to belief which leads to calling on Jesus' Name.

    Repentance and confession of Jesus' name come at the same time. Baptism however is not immersion in Jesus. The Ethiopian eunuch, Saul, the Philippian jailer, all of the people on the day of Pentecost, all of these people were taught, and responded to, the same message. And all of them were commanded to be baptized in water for the remission of their sins so that they could inherit eternal life. Yes, it is a witness to others that you are committing your life to Christ. But of more importance, it is where we are immersed into Jesus' Blood which the water symbolizes from which a new person, washed clean of sin and death, arises to live a new life in Christ. We cannot be "born again" if we have not died, and numerous scriptures say that in the water of baptism the old man dies and the new arises.

  6. #426
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    To me baptism IS NOT an expression of one's own faith in Christ. It is a sign of God's covenant with man, of Him choosing for Him a people to be in relationship with Him. It is God saying to the one being baptized you are mine. This is something that will not change, God's decision. This is why one does not baptize oneself again, for God has not changed and that which He had begun in you, He will finish. The faith God had given you even as an infant, is the same faith, just matured, when you eventually repent and take the Lord as your Saviour. So when you were baptized as an infant, you already had the faith and you do not have to be baptized again. Again baptism is a sign of what God did and promised and not what I had done. To be obedient to God's covenant one have to baptize your child, otherwise you are in disobedience and treats your child as a unbeliever.
    Your child is an unbeliever until that child has been educated in the Word, believed the Word, and made the choice to obey the Word. There is no faith that the child is exercising when it is sprinkled with water at a dedication. There is no saving power in the act of infant "baptism" (very rarely is the child ever immersed, so not baptized). The faith is required of the recipient of baptism, not the parents, not the baptizer, not the audience. And there is no command in NT Scripture that we are to baptize our children.

  7. #427
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not really sure where you're coming from? I don't know whether you're insisting that someone cannot be a genuine Christian from infancy, or if there is some kind of "age of accountability" in which a decision must be made for Christ?

    I can only describe my own experience. I do not have a "conversion experience." I was raised a Christian from infancy. I remember as a 4 or 5 year old being excited about singing "Jesus loves me." I've gone to church my entire life, prayed my whole life, knew God existed my whole life, lived the Christian life my whole life.

    However, in my teens I compromised, and fell away--not from faith, but from living an exemplary Christian life. I went to church and at the same time drank excessively and used drugs, among other things, involving perversion, theft, and other wrongs, such as not respecting human authorities. I felt very, very guilty, and it was guilt that drove me back to a fresh commitment to Christ.

    I got Water Baptized not for conversion to Christ but rather, for infant dedication, and for repentance in coming back to Christ. I never had a need to be Water Baptized for initial conversion to Christ. I was raised that way.

    I share this to emphasize the non-importance of Water Baptism in comparison with being spiritually baptized into Christ, which is the actual conversion experience. Scriptures say the same thing. Water Baptism is perfectly acceptable for new converts to Christianity. It is not necessary for those who have never had to convert, who were raised genuine Christians from infancy. There is no need to repent from being what you are not, to convert to being what you already are.
    Never had to convert? You were raised in a Christian household, but you were not a Christian yourself until you came to an understanding of what you were taught, and made the decision to obey Christ. I too was raised in a Christian household. I too lived a good life at first. I too loved to sing and pray, and worship God. But there came a time when I was convicted that I was a sinner. That I was had not been obedient to Him. I studied the Word and was convicted that I needed to dedicate myself to Him as the believers in the first century did. So I went to our minister and told him that I believed and that I needed salvation from sin. He baptized me (I was 14).

    You can emphasize the "non-importance" of water baptism all you want, but Scripture (which is what really matters in this discussion) says differently.

  8. #428
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    So then why are so many saying this doesn't happen, until after a water baptism?
    Perhaps because, as with many other things in Scripture, one concept (here belief) is mentioned and encompasses many other ideas that are all understood by the reader to be an inseparable part of that idea. Here, a person who "believes" is understood to have heard the Word, repented of their unGodly life, be trying to live a Godly life, have been baptized for the remission of their sins, worship regularly with the other Saints, and other things associated with a person who "believes".

  9. #429
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I'd say he was saved when he believed in Christ after his encounter with Jesus on his way to Damascus.
    Then why was he still in sin three days later, Acts 22:1-16? He sat fasting, praying, and blind for three days until Ananias came to him. And what did Ananias tell him? Gods command to "... Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name." If he had been saved when he believed, he would not have still been in sin three days later when he was baptized.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Let's take a step back then... when YOU heard the Gospel and when YOU called Jesus, "Lord" was your belief in Jesus Christ?
    When I believed that Jesus needed to be Lord of my life, I chose to repent and walk His path, I then confessed my belief that Jesus was God's Son and was baptized into His blood so that I could be forgiven of my sins.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    [/COLOR]

    I believe I have a fair idea of at least person who has proposed this doctrine. But I'd say, it is false and incorrect.
    Knowing that it is from the OT, I submit the example of Naaman. He was commanded to do ONE specific act, and until that act was done he would not be "saved" / cleansed.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    When I believed that Jesus needed to be Lord of my life, I chose to repent and walk His path, I then confessed my belief that Jesus was God's Son and was baptized into His blood so that I could be forgiven of my sins.
    Amen!

    You know my question now... if YOU had done all you described while parked at a rest stop along some highway BUT in that moment with Jesus, are you saying that He wouldn't forgive you nor redeem/justify you because you could not yet find a man to baptize you in water in that moment of time?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  13. #433

    Cool Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Amen!

    You know my question now... if YOU had done all you described while parked at a rest stop along some highway BUT in that moment with Jesus, are you saying that He wouldn't forgive you nor redeem/justify you because you could not yet find a man to baptize you in water in that moment of time?
    Oh, come on Slug1. You know the answer and his answer to that. God will not hold us to something impossible.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Amen!

    You know my question now... if YOU had done all you described while parked at a rest stop along some highway BUT in that moment with Jesus, are you saying that He wouldn't forgive you nor redeem/justify you because you could not yet find a man to baptize you in water in that moment of time?
    Yes, I am saying that if I had not obeyed Him, His covenant is not yet with me. I would not yet be grafted into the tree that is Jesus Rom 11:17-21. Now, as has been said elsewhere in this thread, I am not God, and He is merciful. He may choose to save me if, given your example above, I died at that instant. But I wouldn't expect Him to, because He is also Just.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Amen!

    You know my question now... if YOU had done all you described while parked at a rest stop along some highway BUT in that moment with Jesus, are you saying that He wouldn't forgive you nor redeem/justify you because you could not yet find a man to baptize you in water in that moment of time?
    Yes, I am saying that if I had not obeyed Him, His covenant is not yet with me. I would not yet be grafted into the tree that is Jesus Rom 11:17-21. Now, as has been said elsewhere in this thread, I am not God, and He is merciful. He may choose to save me if, given your example above, I died at that instant. But I wouldn't expect Him to, because He is also Just.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    Your child is an unbeliever until that child has been educated in the Word, believed the Word, and made the choice to obey the Word. There is no faith that the child is exercising when it is sprinkled with water at a dedication. There is no saving power in the act of infant "baptism" (very rarely is the child ever immersed, so not baptized). The faith is required of the recipient of baptism, not the parents, not the baptizer, not the audience. And there is no command in NT Scripture that we are to baptize our children.
    I will answer fully later, but according to your answer are all children lost because of being unbelievers? Especially those who have died in infancy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    Your child is an unbeliever until that child has been educated in the Word, believed the Word, and made the choice to obey the Word. There is no faith that the child is exercising when it is sprinkled with water at a dedication. There is no saving power in the act of infant "baptism" (very rarely is the child ever immersed, so not baptized). The faith is required of the recipient of baptism, not the parents, not the baptizer, not the audience. And there is no command in NT Scripture that we are to baptize our children.
    I will answer fully later, but according to your answer are all children lost because of being unbelievers? Especially those who have died in infancy?

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