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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #16
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Not a problem, Brian. I've come to love and respect all of your comments/questions. My response is 2-fold. 1) You may be perfectly right, that the Great Commission was given with Jesus' insight into the future of Christianity, setting forth a plan for *all generations* to do the things you mentioned, to bring about faith, baptism, and salvation.

    But 2) it's also possible that Jesus, being divine, deliberately avoided make it unmistakable that this was for all generations by directing his comments specifically to his apostles, and not to future generations of Christian leaders.

    I've taken the #2 position basically because of my Lutheran upbringing and Protestant conviction that "Faith Alone" saves us, without the help of Sacraments. The Apostle Paul had to fight off the introduction of external ceremonies into the Church formula of "Christ alone." So I don't find it strange that my own belief of "Faith Alone without a necessity of the Sacraments" should be questioned. It is such a time-worn position that Baptism is the universal, historical practice of the Church.

    The reason I've made this decision is because I think the focus on Christ Alone is more critical than the ceremony of Baptism. And I've found that the expectation of mystical experience at baptismal ceremonies smacks of spiritualism in Christianity, and not true spirituality. In Christianity we cannot do certain rituals to get the Spirit to fall. Instead we obey God and then are anointed by the Spirit to enable us to do and speak with divine authority.

    Thanks for asking in such a gracious spirit. I don't have absolute certainty that I'm right. But I thought it was an interesting topic, that could yield either confirmation or correction. I'm still not sure. This is just my current conviction.

    In a nutshell, my focus, currently, is on *Spirit Baptism* instead of Water Baptism. Spirit Baptism is what truly Saves us, through our entry into Christ in a spiritual way. External rituals cannot cause this to take place. Only our response to God's word of Salvation can cause this to take place.
    Thanks for the great discussion so far and the understanding!

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

    We agree that water baptism isn't an intrinsic component of salvation and I'm sure we agree that none of the so called "sacraments" are.
    I don't think that Scripture shows baptism to be a sacrament at all but instead, as I stated earlier, I see and think scriptures show it is an ordinance given by Christ - of which there are only two.
    Baptism and Communion - neither of which convey grace.

    As I'm sure you're aware ordinances are determined by three factors

    1. Instituted by Christ
    2. Taught by the apostles
    3. Practiced by the early church

    So what is an ordinance? Basically they boil down to things Christ told us to observe with other Christians in order to better understand and keep in mind Christ's redemptive work. Symbolic reenactments of the gospel as you've said.

    Is baptism necessary for salvation? Is it a sacrament? No. Scriptures clearly show and plainly tell us otherwise. I do think it is an ordinance though and as such it is quite a bit more important than a mere ceremony or tradition.

    So I guess our only disagreement would be how important we individually and as The Church should view baptism and communion to be.
    We agree that neither are salvific. Both come -after- salvation.

  2. #17
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post

    Peter full of the Holy Ghost

    Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

    Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
    **Acts‬ *2:22-23, 32-33, 36-38‬ *KJV‬‬

    I think you're confusing baptism of the Spirit and water baptism here. Many have and still do.
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    I've followed the answers to this thread, and again I am amazed. On the one hand we have the contingent that settles for a meaningless Christian ritual and on the far side, those who (rightly) say that we have to do it because it is ordered by the Lord. In the previous thread on Baptism, I outlined Baptism as it pertains to three of the four aspects of salvation. Then I outlined the principle of any man chosen by God to walk through and bury his past in water. Then I outlined the reasons by Colossians 2 showed Baptism to be the new circumcision. They were met with (i) silence, (ii) dismissal, and /or confusion. Here in this thread, the same old - same old is regurgitated. So now I will ask a question to all the dismissers of Baptism. Note the grammar of Romans 6:4-5;

    4 "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"


    Verse 4 starts with "therefore". Thus, it is the conclusion of verse 3 which states; "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" The use of the phrase "so many" IMPLIES that not all would do it. That is also why the verses starts with "Know ye not". The writer is challenging those who refuse it. And the reason MOMENTOUS!
    Verse 4 says that "we" (the many of verse 3) who obey to being IMMERSED, will walk a different walk than before our Baptism. Baptism is the ending of the old walk and the empowering to walk a new walk. Noah walked a certain walk before the flood, and it was no doubt very difficult. AS he came out of the flood, the old was gone and his walk was much different.
    Verse 5 is even more drastic. It starts with "FOR IF". Again the word "IF" indicates that not all would be obedient. But now the CONSEQUENCES are decisive. Verse 5 goes on to say that if we have not been Baptized, or planted in death, like Christ WE CANNOT BE RAISED LIKE HIM! This is sobering. John confirms this in 1st John 3:1-9. WE will be "like Him (Jesus) when He comes, but the surrounding verses all call for way of life. The resurrection of the Church is likened to stars in 1st Corinthians 15:40-41 ...

    40 "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
    41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."

    ... AND THERE ARE DIFFERING GLORIES PREDICTED AMONG THE STARS! I tell you, not all Christians will be "LIKE Christ" in resurrection! There will be DIFFERING GLORIES. And what makes this crucial??? Christ's Body is the prototype for entering the Kingdom. As the glories of the individual Christian's bodies start to vary from Christ's, there will come a point where the body is NOT FIT for the Kingdom. In The parables of the Kingdom, SOME SERVANTS make it into the joy of the Lord when He comes in His Kingdom, and SOME SERVANTS don't. In one case it was not using one's Talent (Matt.25). In another case it was not using one's Pound (Lk.19). In another case it was disobedience (Matt.7). In another case it was lack of extra oil, not in the Lamp, but in the vessel. And here in Romans 6 I propose that without Baptism you CANNOT be raised from the dead LIKE Christ - MAKING YOUR BODY UNFIT FOR THE KINGDOM!

    According to the verses above in Romans Chapter 6, Baptism is CRUCIAL for being LIKE Christ in resurrection, and being LIKE Christ in resurrection is CRUCIAL for entering the Kingdom. Woe to the rebel Christian who downplays Baptism!
    Last edited by Walls; Aug 19th 2019 at 12:46 PM.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Thanks for the great discussion so far and the understanding!

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

    We agree that water baptism isn't an intrinsic component of salvation and I'm sure we agree that none of the so called "sacraments" are.
    I don't think that Scripture shows baptism to be a sacrament at all but instead, as I stated earlier, I see and think scriptures show it is an ordinance
    given by Christ - of which there are only two - Baptism and Communion - neither of which convey grace.

    As I'm sure you're aware ordinances are determined by three factors

    1. Instituted by Christ
    2. Taught by the apostles
    3. Practiced by the early church

    So what is ordinance? Basically they boil down to things Christ told us to observe with other Christians in order to better understand and keep in mind Christ's redemptive work. Symbolic reenactments of the gospel as you've said.

    Is baptism necessary for salvation? Is it a sacrament? No. Scriptures clearly show and plainly tell us otherwise. I do think it is an ordinance though as such it is quite a bit more important than a mere ceremony or tradition.

    So I guess our only disagreement would be how important we individually and as The Church should view baptism and communion to be.
    We agree that neither are salvific. Both come -after- salvation.
    Spoken with the Wisdom of Solomon! I could never have a problem with such a fair presentation. The important points are covered. Looking at "ordinances" as valued practices is something I haven't spent enough time looking at. It's really an open question with me.

  5. #20
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I've followed the answers to this thread, and again I am amazed. On the one hand we have the contingent that settles for a meaningless Christian ritual and on the far side, those who (rightly) say that we have to do it because it is ordered by the Lord. In the previous thread on Baptism, I outlined Baptism as it pertains to three of the four aspects of salvation. Then I outlined the principle of any man chosen by God to walk through and bury his past in water. Then I outlined the reasons by Colossians 2 showed Baptism to be the new circumcision. They were met with (i) silence, (ii) dismissal, and /or confusion. Here in this thread, the same old - same old is regurgitated. So now I will ask a question to all the dismissers of Baptism. Note the grammar of Romans 6:4-5;

    4 "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"


    Verse 4 starts with "therefore". Thus, it is the conclusion of verse 3 which states; "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" The use of the phrase "so many" IMPLIES that not all would do it. That is also why the verses starts with "Know ye not". The writer is challenging those who refuse it. And the reason MOMENTOUS!
    Verse 4 says that "we" (the many of verse 3) who obey to being IMMERSED, will walk a different walk than before our Baptism. Baptism is the ending of the old walk and the empowering to walk a new walk. Noah walked a certain walk before the flood, and it was no doubt very difficult. AS he came out of the flood, the old was gone and his walk was much different.
    Verse 5 is even more drastic. It starts with "FOR IF". Again the word "IF" indicates that not all would be obedient. But now the CONSEQUENCES are decisive. Verse 5 goes on to say that if we have not been Baptized, or planted in death, like Christ WE CANNOT BE RAISED LIKE HIM! This is sobering. John confirms this in 1st John 3:1-9. WE will be "like Him (Jesus) when He comes, but the surrounding verses all call for way of life. The resurrection of the Church is likened to stars in 1st Corinthians 15:40-41 ...

    40 "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
    41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."

    ... AND THERE ARE DIFFERING GLORIES PREDICTED AMONG THE STARS! I tell you, not all Christians will be "LIKE Christ" in resurrection! There will be DIFFERING GLORIES. And what makes this crucial??? Christ's Body is the prototype for entering the Kingdom. As the glories of the individual Christian's bodies start to vary from Christ's, there will come a point where the body is NOT FIT for the Kingdom. In The parables of the Kingdom, SOME SERVANTS make it into the joy of the Lord when He comes in His Kingdom, and SOME SERVANTS don't. In one case it was not using one's Talent (Matt.25). In another case it was not using one's Pound (Lk.19). In another case it was disobedience (Matt.7). In another case it was lack of extra oil, not in the Lamp, but in the vessel. And here in Romans 6 I propose that without Baptism you CANNOT be raised from the dead LIKE Christ - MAKING YOUR BODY UNFIT FOR THE KINGDOM!

    According to the verses above in Romans Chapter 6, Baptism is CRUCIAL for being LIKE Christ in resurrection, and being LIKE Christ in resurrection is CRUCIAL for entering the Kingdom. Woe to the rebel Christian who downplays Baptism!
    I just responded to you in the other thread, and although you rightly perceive my angst against your position, I continue to respect you as a teacher and student of the Scriptures. I simply disagree with the idea that Baptism, as an external act, is an "empowerment" qualifying us for entry into the Millennial Kingdom. Salvation has to do with eternity, and does not distinguish between a temporal Kingdom in the Millennium and the Eternal Kingdom of Christ! Salvation is purely deliverance from Eternal Punishment, and involves our common inheritance of Eternal Life by all Christians.

    Baptism, as an external act, holds no mystical powers, no entry pass into an elite realm for specialized Christians. This smacks of elitism, and has no place in the idea of Christian Salvation.

    You are making the *symbol* of Christian Salvation as important as what it represents, namely Christ himself! Our pass into Eternal Life is our baptism into Christ himself, spiritually, and not the symbolic act of Water Baptism. If Water Baptism has any value at all, and I believe it does, it is as a public testimonial of our internal Salvation, and of our intention to walk with Christ from henceforth, and not according to the ways of the world.

  6. #21
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I've followed the answers to this thread, and again I am amazed. On the one hand we have the contingent that settles for a meaningless Christian ritual and on the far side, those who (rightly) say that we have to do it because it is ordered by the Lord. In the previous thread on Baptism, I outlined Baptism as it pertains to three of the four aspects of salvation. Then I outlined the principle of any man chosen by God to walk through and bury his past in water. Then I outlined the reasons by Colossians 2 showed Baptism to be the new circumcision. They were met with (i) silence, (ii) dismissal, and /or confusion. Here in this thread, the same old - same old is regurgitated. So now I will ask a question to all the dismissers of Baptism. Note the grammar of....

    I tell you, not all Christians will be "LIKE Christ" in resurrection!
    That because in this case you not only use Scripture out of context in an attempt try and imply that it says things and teaches things are are contrary to other clear Scriptures you have made up other things up out of whole cloth.
    Water baptism always follows being born again and the baptism of the Spirit. NOT the other way around. We are - saved - by grace, through faith - alone. You cannot get around that. You can get as indignant as you wish to about it but you're still wrong brother.

    "I tell you, not all Christians will be "LIKE Christ" in resurrection!" "As the glories of the individual Christian's bodies start to vary from Christ's, there will come a point where the body is NOT FIT for the Kingdom."

    I love you too bro but I've got to say it - this is nothing except poppycock and balderdash.
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  7. #22
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I've followed the answers to this thread, and again I am amazed. On the one hand we have the contingent that settles for a meaningless Christian ritual and on the far side, those who (rightly) say that we have to do it because it is ordered by the Lord. In the previous thread on Baptism, I outlined Baptism as it pertains to three of the four aspects of salvation. Then I outlined the principle of any man chosen by God to walk through and bury his past in water. Then I outlined the reasons by Colossians 2 showed Baptism to be the new circumcision. They were met with (i) silence, (ii) dismissal, and /or confusion.
    I feel I must correct a few things here.
    1) I view Water Baptism as symbolic of Spirit Baptism. Spirit Baptism is essential for Salvation. Water Baptism is not. The Scriptures downplay Water Baptism in favor of Spirit Baptism. But this does not render Water Baptism "meaningless," as you suggested! On the contrary, Water Baptism is upheld as a symbolic act and as a public statement of conversion from the World to Christ.

    2) Proving that the things Water Baptism symbolize have to do with Salvation does not make the symbol a necessary part of Salvation. Water Baptism symbolizes the death of our old ways. But Water Baptism does not actually accomplish that.

    Our Faith in Christ is what accomplishes the death of our old ways, as well as our participation in the new life given us by Christ. Water Baptism merely symbolizes our decision made publicly as a confession. It has value, but is not the instrument of Salvation itself.

    3) When the Scriptures speak of our being "baptized into Christ" it is not suggesting that the symbolic act of Water Baptism accomplishes that. It is our *Spirit Baptism* that accomplishes that, with the symbol of Water Baptism only serving as a public confession that this has already happened.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    That because in this case you not only use Scripture out of context in an attempt try and imply that it says things and teaches things are are contrary to other clear Scriptures you have made up other things up out of whole cloth.
    Water baptism always follows being born again and the baptism of the Spirit. NOT the other way around. We are - saved - by grace, through faith - alone. You cannot get around that. You can get as indignant as you wish to about it but you're still wrong brother.

    "I tell you, not all Christians will be "LIKE Christ" in resurrection!" "As the glories of the individual Christian's bodies start to vary from Christ's, there will come a point where the body is NOT FIT for the Kingdom."

    I love you too bro but I've got to say it - this is nothing except poppycock and balderdash.
    Hooah!

    I always ask, does Jesus say to a person who has surrendered over to Him in belief... "sorry, I can't save you until a man has dipped you in water in the name of the Father, Me, and My Spirit..."

    Yes, scripture teaches that ONCE Christ has entered a person, they are saved and baptism is an action of faith WE do. As a symbol of all He's done.
    Slug1--out

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I just responded to you in the other thread, and although you rightly perceive my angst against your position, I continue to respect you as a teacher and student of the Scriptures. I simply disagree with the idea that Baptism, as an external act, is an "empowerment" qualifying us for entry into the Millennial Kingdom. Salvation has to do with eternity, and does not distinguish between a temporal Kingdom in the Millennium and the Eternal Kingdom of Christ! Salvation is purely deliverance from Eternal Punishment, and involves our common inheritance of Eternal Life by all Christians.

    Baptism, as an external act, holds no mystical powers, no entry pass into an elite realm for specialized Christians. This smacks of elitism, and has no place in the idea of Christian Salvation.

    You are making the *symbol* of Christian Salvation as important as what it represents, namely Christ himself! Our pass into Eternal Life is our baptism into Christ himself, spiritually, and not the symbolic act of Water Baptism. If Water Baptism has any value at all, and I believe it does, it is as a public testimonial of our internal Salvation, and of our intention to walk with Christ from henceforth, and not according to the ways of the world.
    Thanks for the answer. Go well bro.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    That because in this case you not only use Scripture out of context in an attempt try and imply that it says things and teaches things are are contrary to other clear Scriptures you have made up other things up out of whole cloth.
    Water baptism always follows being born again and the baptism of the Spirit. NOT the other way around. We are - saved - by grace, through faith - alone. You cannot get around that. You can get as indignant as you wish to about it but you're still wrong brother.

    "I tell you, not all Christians will be "LIKE Christ" in resurrection!" "As the glories of the individual Christian's bodies start to vary from Christ's, there will come a point where the body is NOT FIT for the Kingdom."

    I love you too bro but I've got to say it - this is nothing except poppycock and balderdash.
    No offense taken. But let us see.
    • In resurrection there will be "stars". I did not say this. The Holy Spirit said it in 1st Corinthians 15:41-42
    • In resurrection there will be stars with DIFFERING glories. I did not say this. The Holy Spirit said it
    • The stars are the sons of Abraham as are the "sand of the sea shore" (Heb.11:12)
    • Abraham is father of Israel which are designated "sand of the sea shore". Who then are the seed of Abraham who are heavenly stars?

    Be careful now in your answer for if you say Christians then I will say that SCRIPTURE SAYS that not all Christians make it into the Kingdom of Heaven. In Matthew 7:21-23 they that cast out demons - a sure sign of them being Christians (Mk.16:17) but are refused entry into the Kingdom. In Matthew 22 the parable of the marriage feast concerns the Kingdom of Heaven. One company refuses to come - Israel. Another company accept the invitation - the Church. But one's "garment" decides if he is allowed to feast or is cast out of the kingdom of Heaven. A "garment" in parable is works (Rev.19:8). In Matthew 24 a servant who was once good and is promised to be "ruler of all His goods" starts to abuse his fellow servants and is cast out of the kingdom. All are servants and the evil servant is still called a servant after he is cast out. In Matthew 25 all are servants, some are faithful with their gifts and some not. The slothful (not unbelieving) servant is cast out. In Matthew 25 ALL are virgins. ALL are similar in seven points, but some are foolish (not unbelieving). The parable concerns the kingdom of Heaven and five are cast out. 1st Corinthians 6:9-10 is addressed to (i) "the church of God which is at Corinth, (ii) to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, (iii) called to be saints, (iv) with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours", and the context is what BROTHERS do to BROTHERS. They are warned that SOME BROTHERS will not enter the Kingdom of God for works. So also in Galatians 5:21 and Ephesians 5:5.

    Is it not established that BELIEVERS will be shut out of the kingdom when Christ comes? And in each case above they are cast out for WORKS. What then of the BELIEVER who REFUSES Baptism - a work. 1st Corinthians 15:50 says that our bodies are not fit for the Kingdom and must be changed. Changed to what? Philippians 3:21 answers; "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." I have proposed that to be LIKE Christ in resurrection the Holy Spirit used these words; "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

    In all my examples above there is only the Holy Spirit's teachings. "poppycock and balderdash" .... Hmmmm. I would not use these words.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Hooah!

    I always ask, does Jesus say to a person who has surrendered over to Him in belief... "sorry, I can't save you until a man has dipped you in water in the name of the Father, Me, and My Spirit..."

    Yes, scripture teaches that ONCE Christ has entered a person, they are saved and baptism is an action of faith WE do. As a symbol of all He's done.
    I answer your first sentence only. Consider this.

    Israel was SAVED by the blood of the Lamb. A Christian is SAVED by the blood of THE Lamb. Is that it? Israel live happily ever after in Egypt, for passing trough the waters is not necessary. The Christian lives happily ever after until he goes to heaven. Canaan is left to the Canaanites and the earth is left to the Gentiles. All members of the Forum are happy because they were SAVED!

    But I tell you that that concept of salvation stinks because of 600,000 men over 20 years who were saved by the blood of the Lamb, ALL but TWO died anyway - just with hunger, heat, serpents and chastisement thrown in (Deut.8:1-8). Is this the grand vision of Christian salvation? Not I, but the Holy Spirit says, "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the age are come" (1st Corinthians 10:11). What happened to Israel is our PATTERN. Who then is the Christian who will refuse the Red Sea for 1st Corinthians 10:1-2 tells us that, "... all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea!"

    Is the blood of the Lamb the end of things? Or where the disciples right when they asked the Lord "who then can be saved" when they meant entering the Millennial Kingdom in Matthew 22? Is Israel's salvation by the blood of the Lamb in Egypt the end of things? Or was the Good Land of Canaan the end of things?

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    No offense taken. But let us see.
    • In resurrection there will be "stars". I did not say this. The Holy Spirit said it in 1st Corinthians 15:41-42
    • In resurrection there will be stars with DIFFERING glories. I did not say this. The Holy Spirit said it
    • The stars are the sons of Abraham as are the "sand of the sea shore" (Heb.11:12)
    • Abraham is father of Israel which are designated "sand of the sea shore". Who then are the seed of Abraham who are heavenly stars?

    Be careful now in your answer for if you say Christians then I will say that SCRIPTURE SAYS that not all Christians make it into the Kingdom of Heaven. In Matthew 7:21-23 they that cast out demons - a sure sign of them being Christians (Mk.16:17) but are refused entry into the Kingdom. In Matthew 22 the parable of the marriage feast concerns the Kingdom of Heaven. One company refuses to come - Israel. Another company accept the invitation - the Church. But one's "garment" decides if he is allowed to feast or is cast out of the kingdom of Heaven. A "garment" in parable is works (Rev.19:8). In Matthew 24 a servant who was once good and is promised to be "ruler of all His goods" starts to abuse his fellow servants and is cast out of the kingdom. All are servants and the evil servant is still called a servant after he is cast out. In Matthew 25 all are servants, some are faithful with their gifts and some not. The slothful (not unbelieving) servant is cast out. In Matthew 25 ALL are virgins. ALL are similar in seven points, but some are foolish (not unbelieving). The parable concerns the kingdom of Heaven and five are cast out. 1st Corinthians 6:9-10 is addressed to (i) "the church of God which is at Corinth, (ii) to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, (iii) called to be saints, (iv) with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours", and the context is what BROTHERS do to BROTHERS. They are warned that SOME BROTHERS will not enter the Kingdom of God for works. So also in Galatians 5:21 and Ephesians 5:5.

    Is it not established that BELIEVERS will be shut out of the kingdom when Christ comes? And in each case above they are cast out for WORKS. What then of the BELIEVER who REFUSES Baptism - a work. 1st Corinthians 15:50 says that our bodies are not fit for the Kingdom and must be changed. Changed to what? Philippians 3:21 answers; "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." I have proposed that to be LIKE Christ in resurrection the Holy Spirit used these words; "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

    In all my examples above there is only the Holy Spirit's teachings. "poppycock and balderdash" .... Hmmmm. I would not use these words.
    What I find interesting about your views is that although we definitely disagree there are parallels with what I believe. This should not be surprising to me since we both base our beliefs on the same Scriptures.

    You divide Christian from Christian based on a variety of elements that validate Salvation and a variety of elements that invalidate Salvation. You say this has to do with entry into the Kingdom, and not about Eternal Life, because all concerned are Christians.

    But my view is that there is a difference between nominal Christians and genuine Christians, such that all that go under the name of "Christian" are not necessarily "true Christians," or Christians that are saved.

    So the same criteria you use to divide Christian in the Millennial Kingdom from Christian with Eternal Life is the same criteria I use to distinguish between nominal, or fake, Christians and genuine spiritual Christianity, or the genuine articles.

    Those who:
    1) cast out demons and yet don't know Christ,
    2) refuse to go to Christ's "marriage feast,"
    3) lack the proper attire for the feast, and
    4) abuse the master's servants...

    These are servants because of their calling as Christians, but are not chosen for Salvation. They are not true Christians.

    These stories were told by Jesus before the beginning of the Christian Church, and applied to Israel, who were still under the Law. They were *all* called to be servants of God. But the ones chosen for Salvation were those who put on the "garment of Christ," treated Jesus' disciples and ministers respectfully, and saw in Christ their God, knowing Him intimately. They worked miracles and cast out demons out of love for Christ, and not out of duty.

    It is my assumption that all men, who are mixed in with the company of those called to be God's servants, can do things without really knowing God intimately, from the heart. They may know God in their mind, experiencing the revelation of who He is. They may understand some of the mysteries of God and prophesy in His name. They may experience the Spirit of God, and recognize in Christ deity.

    But knowing God intimately, from the heart, is different from all that, and requires Rebirth. It requires a love both for God's character and presence. And so, your idea of those who simply have Eternal Life, but not the Millennial Kingdom, are for me those who are lost.

    Baptism is an issue we've already dealt with, so I'm not repeating here. Just thought it might be interesting to point out how I look at this.

  13. #28
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    In resurrection there will be "stars". I did not say this. The Holy Spirit said it in
    No the Holy Spirit most certainly did not say anything close to that. Paul is illustrating the difference between those who are born again and those who are not. Those who have been renewed, cleansed and changed by grace through faith and those who have not.

    Not multiple kinds/types of Christians. Those who are Christians and those who are not, meaning, the saved ( Christians) and the lost ( those who refuse Christ.)

    We will be raised and changed. No longer will the saved resurrected have corrupted fleshly bodies but instead will have incorruptible bodies.


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    In all my examples above there is only the Holy Spirit's teachings. "poppycock and balderdash" .... Hmmmm. I would not use these words.
    I did and still do. I've no idea how you've come to twist the scriptures so far out of context as to come to such bizarre conclusions. I'm honestly baffled as to how you got here.
    And just to be clear - it's not "the Holy Spirit's teachings" I'm saying poppycock and balderdash to it's your out of left field twisting of scriptures and weird doctrine here.
    Last edited by BrianW; Aug 19th 2019 at 10:25 AM.

  14. #29
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I answer your first sentence only. Consider this.

    Israel was SAVED by the blood of the Lamb. A Christian is SAVED by the blood of THE Lamb. Is that it? Israel live happily ever after in Egypt, for passing trough the waters is not necessary. The Christian lives happily ever after until he goes to heaven. Canaan is left to the Canaanites and the earth is left to the Gentiles. All members of the Forum are happy because they were SAVED!

    But I tell you that that concept of salvation stinks because of 600,000 men over 20 years who were saved by the blood of the Lamb, ALL but TWO died anyway - just with hunger, heat, serpents and chastisement thrown in (Deut.8:1-8). Is this the grand vision of Christian salvation? Not I, but the Holy Spirit says, "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the age are come" (1st Corinthians 10:11). What happened to Israel is our PATTERN. Who then is the Christian who will refuse the Red Sea for 1st Corinthians 10:1-2 tells us that, "... all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea!"

    Is the blood of the Lamb the end of things? Or where the disciples right when they asked the Lord "who then can be saved" when they meant entering the Millennial Kingdom in Matthew 22? Is Israel's salvation by the blood of the Lamb in Egypt the end of things? Or was the Good Land of Canaan the end of things?
    A person hears the Gospel on a Christian radio station. Listens to this station for a month (or less or more) and while listening on the way home from work, pulls off into a rest stop, parks the car, and begins to pray, repents of their sins and surrenders themselves over to Jesus Christ in belief, accepting Him as their personal Lord/Savior??

    Are you saying, Jesus DOES NOT accept this person nor redeems this person because a man has not dipped them in water for a baptism?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  15. #30

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    A person hears the Gospel on a Christian radio station. Listens to this station for a month (or less or more) and while listening on the way home from work, pulls off into a rest stop, parks the car, and begins to pray, repents of their sins and surrenders themselves over to Jesus Christ in belief, accepting Him as their personal Lord/Savior??

    Are you saying, Jesus DOES NOT accept this person nor redeems this person because a man has not dipped them in water for a baptism?
    How can someone "accept Jesus as their personal Lord/Savior" while deliberately ignoring His command to be baptised?

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