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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #451
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    Your child is an unbeliever until that child has been educated in the Word, believed the Word, and made the choice to obey the Word. There is no faith that the child is exercising when it is sprinkled with water at a dedication. There is no saving power in the act of infant "baptism" (very rarely is the child ever immersed, so not baptized). The faith is required of the recipient of baptism, not the parents, not the baptizer, not the audience. And there is no command in NT Scripture that we are to baptize our children.
    Don't be too hasty to condemn infant baptism. As a former Catholic, I was baptized as an infant, then followed up with "confirmation" when I was at the age of ten. I understand infant baptism as committing a child to Christ by his parents, then when he's old enough to know right from wrong and still believing in Christ, his profession of faith is then sealed in confirmation.

    I'm not asking you to accept this interpretation, it's all mine. As earlier said, I was confirmed aged 10 and remained a Catholic until I was in my twenties before I left for an evangelical church. I am saved and don't believe there's need for me to take a dip in water for another baptism.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    Never had to convert? You were raised in a Christian household, but you were not a Christian yourself until you came to an understanding of what you were taught, and made the decision to obey Christ. I too was raised in a Christian household. I too lived a good life at first. I too loved to sing and pray, and worship God. But there came a time when I was convicted that I was a sinner. That I was had not been obedient to Him. I studied the Word and was convicted that I needed to dedicate myself to Him as the believers in the first century did. So I went to our minister and told him that I believed and that I needed salvation from sin. He baptized me (I was 14).

    You can emphasize the "non-importance" of water baptism all you want, but Scripture (which is what really matters in this discussion) says differently.
    What makes you believe that 5-year-olds raised in the church, who's heard Bible stories of Jesus and what he stands for (albeit with the understanding of a 5yr old), doesn't know about Jesus?

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    So you're saying that "choosing wrong" makes us lost? That is unbiblical. The Apostle John said that anybody who denies they sin is a liar. That would, apparently, make you a liar, since you are claiming you are a Christian and do not "choose wrong" at times?
    That is putting words into my mouth (as it were). Yes, choosing wrong makes us lost, and everyone including yourself and myself, have done so. I sin. But because I have been washed in the Blood, God through Paul promises to continually cleanse me from all unrighteousness through the continual washing of the Blood (1 John 1:7). But there is no cleansing for those who have not been washed in the Blood, including those who were raised in the Church who have not been baptized into Christ.

  4. #454

    Cool Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I've not been frequent as I'd love and regrettably have not followed your position on this topic. It was actually bro Walls that I had in mind as teaching that some king of 'work' is required for salvation. If you share the same view, then you are wrong too. You see the problem is your misunderstanding of what is at the heart of Jesus Christ' instruction to the rich man to go and dispose of his wealth and follow him.

    Giving up his wealth as requested is not work but rather an expression of faith in Christ on the part of the rich man. His failure to comply ergo is evident that he lacked faith in Jesus which was not entirely surprising considering he had lived by the requirements of the law. From his exchange with Jesus, it is apparent that he was confident that having fulfilled the law, nothing more was amiss. Therefore, he considered Jesus Christ' commandment to dispose of his wealth as unnecessary and outside the scope of the law.
    Also, Christ knew what wealth does to a man. Because our flesh wants to follow a tangible asset or assets rather than rely on God for day to day provisions. If we always have had money, we will naturally trust in that money. Our money might let us down but God always supplies.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  5. #455

    Cool Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Don't be too hasty to condemn infant baptism. As a former Catholic, I was baptized as an infant, then followed up with "confirmation" when I was at the age of ten. I understand infant baptism as committing a child to Christ by his parents, then when he's old enough to know right from wrong and still believing in Christ, his profession of faith is then sealed in confirmation.

    I'm not asking you to accept this interpretation, it's all mine. As earlier said, I was confirmed aged 10 and remained a Catholic until I was in my twenties before I left for an evangelical church. I am saved and don't believe there's need for me to take a dip in water for another baptism.
    I will stand with you and Randyk on infant baptism. That is just dedicating the child to God. If you raise them as believers, we can count on God to fulfill His word. God will deal kindly with our house if we serve Him faithfully.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    That is putting words into my mouth (as it were). Yes, choosing wrong makes us lost, and everyone including yourself and myself, have done so. I sin. But because I have been washed in the Blood, God through Paul promises to continually cleanse me from all unrighteousness through the continual washing of the Blood (1 John 1:7). But there is no cleansing for those who have not been washed in the Blood, including those who were raised in the Church who have not been baptized into Christ.
    I was raising the question. If you say that "choosing wrong makes you lost" then even the Saved Person who chooses wrong is lost, right? And yet you go on to say that somehow being Saved allows you to "choose wrong" and not get lost?

    So if you are the one to decide that someone is not saved, simply because he has not been baptized, why doesn't the Bible require water baptism to be saved? It only says that the one who is both believing and is water baptized will be saved. It does *not* say that the one believing *must* be water baptized to be saved!

    So where in the Scriptures are we told that we need to be Water Baptized in order to be Saved? Nowhere! You are therefore passing judgment on who is Saved, regardless of the evidence that they are indeed Saved, purely because you've concocted a doctrine that Water Baptism is necessary for Salvation. Purely judgmental. I'm happy to not be in your doctrinal fellowship.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    What makes you believe that 5-year-olds raised in the church, who's heard Bible stories of Jesus and what he stands for (albeit with the understanding of a 5yr old), doesn't know about Jesus?
    Doug is trying to fit Reality into his Doctrine. But Reality has a life of its own, and we must submit to it.

    Of course, a 5 year old can sense the Lord, and believe in Him. The idea is to raise children up *in the Lord,* and not wait until a supposed Age of Accountability!

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    So if you are the one to decide that someone is not saved, simply because he has not been baptized, why doesn't the Bible require water baptism to be saved? It only says that the one who is both believing and is water baptized will be saved. It does *not* say that the one believing *must* be water baptized to be saved!

    So where in the Scriptures are we told that we need to be Water Baptized in order to be Saved? Nowhere! ...
    No offense but please tell me this isn't you're argument... this is the weakest statement you can make ever... for multiple reasons...

    Ok so lets take basic Math for a moment... If I say One and Three makes four. We can all agree that comes out to be 1+3=4 We've all had lovely word problems in our life such is Sarah has a Quarter and a Dime how much does she have. We all know thats 25+10=35. The word And is a simple english word that means you must do that as well.

    I used it with my kids all the time. Noah you must brush your teeth and take a bath. If he were to ever brush his teeth and say you didn't say I must take a bath... No one would ever think like that... most parents would spank their child or discipline their child for ignoring the second part of the command. We would all agree that if I say brush your teeth and take a bath I would expect my child to do both.

    Lets use another example if I sent my son to the store and said get bread and eggs... its very simple and easy to understand that I mean to get both. My soon to be three year old even understand this... if I say eat your carrots and meat and you can have ice cream, Matthias knows he won't get ice cream until he eats both.

    I think all of us has this common sense... its not hard we use it and do it every day.

    I mean really if God where to take every time he gave a command with and in it and had to explain that he wanted both the Bible would be twice as thick... just like the math problems above if someone uses the word AND it means I want whats before it and after it to get what I want. This works in math and in simple ever day commands. So you're argument isn't even an argument its just as if ignoring the principle of the matter.

    Also to your statement about where does the bible say Water Baptized to be saved... Nowhere.... lets see here... Acts 2:37-37, Mark 16:15-16, Acts 22:16; 1st Peter 3:20-21; Acts 10:47; etc... I can continue but why bother... it should only take a single passage to let you know what God wants... I have provided several... Mark 16:15 - 16 Believe and is Baptized is saved. Or Belief + Baptism = Saved the word AND located here means both... as noted above its a simple part of the English language I would assume you use daily.

    As noted before I am not judge and God is the merciful and righteous judge... however over the years I have come to find if you read the bible and just let it speak for itself its rather easy... however its hard to do... so many of us go into it with things we've heard or been taught our whole lives and read that into it... I am probably a prime example of this... my wife can't believe how much I have changed in the past few years verses how I used to be.

    A couple of prime examples that I have noticed over the years:

    1. A lot of people teach, sinners prayer, Jesus to come into your heart, accept Christ as your personal savior etc... we've all heard these and not saying some of these phrases are out right wrong... however I will say in NT conversions you don't see it. Thus why I only use what I see in scripture.... if I can't find an example, or a different method mentioned in scripture than its man made... thus in the NT as noted under NT law everyone is baptized no ifs and or buts... every example or conversion in the NT has it. I know some try to use the thief on the cross but thats why I note under NT law... the NT didn't come into affect until after the death of Christ per Heb 9 and various other passages. A testament is of no affect while the testator liveth.

    2. Same thing with Hell... so many people paint it as a place of pain and suffering for all eternity however these isn't a single passage in the NT that depicts it as that. Not saying its a place anyone wants to be, I am just saying a lot of our ideas come from outside scripture. TV has you thinking of flames with a throne and the Devil is the ruler of it, with lawyers being pushed in... however we know that isn't true as Satan himself will be punish he isn't ruler there... but anyway thats another topic but its amazing how so many have ideas of things with no scripture behind it.

    So once again, the term AND is a simple one and very powerful... we all understand it and to ignore it would be no different than if your child ignored if you ask them to brush their teeth AND take a bath. Also the NT if full of passages noting that Baptism saves... as 1st Peter 3:20-21 notes it is answering in a good conscience toward God.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    So if you are the one to decide that someone is not saved, simply because he has not been baptized, why doesn't the Bible require water baptism to be saved? It only says that the one who is both believing and is water baptized will be saved. It does *not* say that the one believing *must* be water baptized to be saved!

    So where in the Scriptures are we told that we need to be Water Baptized in order to be Saved? Nowhere! ...
    No offense but please tell me this isn't you're argument... this is the weakest statement you can make ever... for multiple reasons...

    Ok so lets take basic Math for a moment... If I say One and Three makes four. We can all agree that comes out to be 1+3=4 We've all had lovely word problems in our life such is Sarah has a Quarter and a Dime how much does she have. We all know thats 25+10=35. The word And is a simple english word that means you must do that as well.

    I used it with my kids all the time. Noah you must brush your teeth and take a bath. If he were to ever brush his teeth and say you didn't say I must take a bath... No one would ever think like that... most parents would spank their child or discipline their child for ignoring the second part of the command. We would all agree that if I say brush your teeth and take a bath I would expect my child to do both.

    Lets use another example if I sent my son to the store and said get bread and eggs... its very simple and easy to understand that I mean to get both. My soon to be three year old even understand this... if I say eat your carrots and meat and you can have ice cream, Matthias knows he won't get ice cream until he eats both.

    I think all of us has this common sense... its not hard we use it and do it every day.

    I mean really if God where to take every time he gave a command with and in it and had to explain that he wanted both the Bible would be twice as thick... just like the math problems above if someone uses the word AND it means I want whats before it and after it to get what I want. This works in math and in simple ever day commands. So you're argument isn't even an argument its just as if ignoring the principle of the matter.

    Also to your statement about where does the bible say Water Baptized to be saved... Nowhere.... lets see here... Acts 2:37-37, Mark 16:15-16, Acts 22:16; 1st Peter 3:20-21; Acts 10:47; etc... I can continue but why bother... it should only take a single passage to let you know what God wants... I have provided several... Mark 16:15 - 16 Believe and is Baptized is saved. Or Belief + Baptism = Saved the word AND located here means both... as noted above its a simple part of the English language I would assume you use daily.

    As noted before I am not judge and God is the merciful and righteous judge... however over the years I have come to find if you read the bible and just let it speak for itself its rather easy... however its hard to do... so many of us go into it with things we've heard or been taught our whole lives and read that into it... I am probably a prime example of this... my wife can't believe how much I have changed in the past few years verses how I used to be.

    A couple of prime examples that I have noticed over the years:

    1. A lot of people teach, sinners prayer, Jesus to come into your heart, accept Christ as your personal savior etc... we've all heard these and not saying some of these phrases are out right wrong... however I will say in NT conversions you don't see it. Thus why I only use what I see in scripture.... if I can't find an example, or a different method mentioned in scripture than its man made... thus in the NT as noted under NT law everyone is baptized no ifs and or buts... every example or conversion in the NT has it. I know some try to use the thief on the cross but thats why I note under NT law... the NT didn't come into affect until after the death of Christ per Heb 9 and various other passages. A testament is of no affect while the testator liveth.

    2. Same thing with Hell... so many people paint it as a place of pain and suffering for all eternity however these isn't a single passage in the NT that depicts it as that. Not saying its a place anyone wants to be, I am just saying a lot of our ideas come from outside scripture. TV has you thinking of flames with a throne and the Devil is the ruler of it, with lawyers being pushed in... however we know that isn't true as Satan himself will be punish he isn't ruler there... but anyway thats another topic but its amazing how so many have ideas of things with no scripture behind it.

    So once again, the term AND is a simple one and very powerful... we all understand it and to ignore it would be no different than if your child ignored if you ask them to brush their teeth AND take a bath. Also the NT if full of passages noting that Baptism saves... as 1st Peter 3:20-21 notes it is answering in a good conscience toward God.
    Isaiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" We should always be willing to do God's bidding, seek ye first the kingdom of God.

    I use Linux because I don't like Windows

  9. #459
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by uric3 View Post
    No offense but please tell me this isn't you're argument... this is the weakest statement you can make ever... for multiple reasons...
    ...So you're argument isn't even an argument its just as if ignoring the principle of the matter.
    In other words, you can't prove that the Scriptures require *both* belief and water baptism! I had to edit out all of the "fill material" that does not give an answer.

    You claim this is just natural intuition, but actually it is not. There are a number of scenarios in which it would not be intuitive to think 2 elements can accomplish something when only 1 element is necessary. For example, I could ask you to climb the hill to get water. Or I could just ask you to get water, and you may get it some other way.

    That's how it is with water baptism. If you belief in Christ and get baptized, you will be saved. But you don't have to get baptized to get saved--you just have to believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by uric
    Also to your statement about where does the bible say Water Baptized to be saved... Nowhere.... lets see here... Acts 2:37-37, Mark 16:15-16, Acts 22:16; 1st Peter 3:20-21; Acts 10:47; etc... I can continue but why bother... it should only take a single passage to let you know what God wants... I have provided several... Mark 16:15 - 16 Believe and is Baptized is saved. Or Belief + Baptism = Saved the word AND located here means both... as noted above its a simple part of the English language I would assume you use daily.
    You cited Scriptures, but you didn't actually produce them. Hmm--it seems that you're resorting to non sequitur. Again, it only requires that one believe to get saved. However, if it is the usual practice to get water baptized then we may say, "If you believe and get water baptized, you will be saved." It does not mean that water baptism is a *necessary* part of the equation.

    Do you really think the Holy Spirit would leave an important element in Salvation lacking in clarity? I don't think so. Just stating someone got water baptized, or just stating that Jesus called his 11 apostles to water baptize, doesn't mean it's necessary for salvation. Certainly John the Baptist water baptized, and it didn't save anyone! If it was so important why did Jesus not do it for others, and why didn't Paul associate it with the Gospel? You haven't answered any of these questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by uric
    As noted before I am not judge and God is the merciful and righteous judge... however over the years I have come to find if you read the bible and just let it speak for itself its rather easy... however its hard to do... so many of us go into it with things we've heard or been taught our whole lives and read that into it... I am probably a prime example of this... my wife can't believe how much I have changed in the past few years verses how I used to be.

    A couple of prime examples that I have noticed over the years:

    1. A lot of people teach, sinners prayer, Jesus to come into your heart, accept Christ as your personal savior etc... we've all heard these and not saying some of these phrases are out right wrong... however I will say in NT conversions you don't see it. Thus why I only use what I see in scripture.... if I can't find an example, or a different method mentioned in scripture than its man made... thus in the NT as noted under NT law everyone is baptized no ifs and or buts... every example or conversion in the NT has it. I know some try to use the thief on the cross but thats why I note under NT law... the NT didn't come into affect until after the death of Christ per Heb 9 and various other passages. A testament is of no affect while the testator liveth.
    But you practice something that is just as deadly as not using something that is mentioned in the Bible. You draw conclusions that are not explicitly made in the Bible itself. For example, the Bible may mention Water Baptism throughout, and yet nowhere are we told it is necessary to be Saved, or even necessary to do, except on limited occasions. It is just as true that the 11 apostles were told to water baptize as it is true that Paul said he didn't practice water baptism much and did not consider it part of the Gospel.

    I let the Holy Spirit speak for Himself, and try to limit my theology to what is explicitly stated. Pentecostals take the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the experience of speaking in tongues in Acts 2, and then draw the false conclusion that speaking in tongues is for all Christians. And yet, Paul explicitly denies that the Holy Spirit gives "tongues" to every individual Christian.

    Quote Originally Posted by uric
    2. Same thing with Hell... so many people paint it as a place of pain and suffering for all eternity however these isn't a single passage in the NT that depicts it as that. Not saying its a place anyone wants to be, I am just saying a lot of our ideas come from outside scripture. TV has you thinking of flames with a throne and the Devil is the ruler of it, with lawyers being pushed in... however we know that isn't true as Satan himself will be punish he isn't ruler there... but anyway thats another topic but its amazing how so many have ideas of things with no scripture behind it.
    I agree that Dante's Inferno wrongly depicts Hell. We're wandering a bit...

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Also, Christ knew what wealth does to a man. Because our flesh wants to follow a tangible asset or assets rather than rely on God for day to day provisions. If we always have had money, we will naturally trust in that money. Our money might let us down but God always supplies.
    Thanks, at least we agree that "work" is not implied in Jesus Christ' request to the rich young man as contrarily believed by some brothers.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Doug is trying to fit Reality into his Doctrine. But Reality has a life of its own, and we must submit to it.

    Of course, a 5 year old can sense the Lord, and believe in Him. The idea is to raise children up *in the Lord,* and not wait until a supposed Age of Accountability!
    Very true. But some of us ignore the simple answer in favour of the nebulous and completely lose their way in the process.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    No, I believe we can exist in three states in this life. Safe, lost, and saved. Safe are those who have not sinned. Those who, due to infancy, birth defect, or injury, have never understood the difference between right and wrong. Lost are those who have attained the level of understanding to know right from wrong and chosen wrong. And finally there are those who hear the Word, believe It, and obey It.
    I know that the views expressed above have already been addressed, however, my position is that there are only 'TWO STATES'; the saved and unsaved. I understand what you mean with regards to those born with mental defects and unable to tell right from God.

    But does scripture say that some people are 'safe'? No! Matter of fact, there's an indictment that we are ALL are in sin. Nonetheless, God told Moses (Ex 33:19) that he will have mercy on whom he will. So God may be gracious to those you say are safe because of his grace and not necessarily because they are incapable of sin.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    YOU considered yourself to be a Christian, but God did not. That is something I have been trying to get across. It doesn't matter how much we think we are His, if He doesn't know us then we we are still lost. He only knows those who have been born again. And everyone needs to be born again, even those of us who were raised in the Church.

    Salvation is not just for pagans. It is for everyone who has sinned. Even those, like us, who were raised in the Church are lost when we, as children, choose to disobey. We come to a point when we have learned right and wrong and we choose wrong. That makes us lost, and only Jesus' Blood will wash us clean again.
    Would you care to elaborate on "choose to disobey"? Do you mean temporary disobedience, rejecting a certain Godly commandment or the outright and sustained turning away from God - as in backsliding? You must clarify what you mean by chose to disobey since you added 'lost' at the end of it.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Very true. But some of us ignore the simple answer in favour of the nebulous and completely lose their way in the process.
    I agree. The thing I don't care for is the blind judgmentalism. It doesn't fit in their theology, and so to defend their version of the Bible they insist: this could *not* have happened to you. You must be lying!

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    The reason I mention about faith + a water baptism, check this verse out and I will provide more.

    1 Pet. 3:21, "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

    ESV:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
    KJV: 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    I can post more translations. However, lets view the Greek for the term that is critical:



    So a water baptism represents WHAT?

    Answer: The baptism Jesus "did" when by faith, a person chose to believe in Him and He washed them or cleansed them of the sins they repented of.

    Jesus does all the saving, not a man submerging a believer into water.

    The water of the flood is an example of the water of baptism. The power to save was in God in both cases, but if Noah in his case and we in ours, don't go through the water, salvation would not have occurred.

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