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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #541
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Brent argues that the thief on the cross was not required to be water baptized because he was still in the OT era. That's certainly not what I'm arguing! My argument is that water baptism is not required period. Water Baptism is an "add on" to the formula of "faith for Salvation."

    In other words, if you believe *and* are water baptized, you'll be saved. Just like, "if you believe and go to church you will be saved." It is not "going to church" that gives you salvation, but rather, the faith that leads to other things.

    Whatever follows faith is part of the Salvation that you will enjoy. If you have faith and follow that up with water baptism, you will certainly be saved. Why? It is because of the *faith* that led to Salvation. The Water Baptism is an act of confirmation.
    We are saved by grace through faith, correct? So what is faith? Is it simply another word for belief, an internal, invisible, personal thing that requires no outside evidence? Or is faith something completely different? I believe that the Bible tells us it is much more than belief. But the Bible also sums it up as "belief" frequently, because belief without faith is non-belief. So what is faith?

    Heb 11:1 says, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Thus faith is something tangible. Faith also must be active to be alive, because "faith without works is dead" (James 2:17). Faith encompasses obedience. "Without faith it is impossible to please Him." and "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." Baptism is simply the first act of faith that we take, and it is through faith that we are saved. Not through belief, not through understanding, through faith: through obedience. Thus through baptism we are saved.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    A quote from the commentary you referenced in your comment.
    "Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
    16. He that believeth and is baptized] Not faith only, but baptism also is required by the Lord. Compare the words of Philip the deacon to the Ethiopian eunuch, Acts 8:37."

    I did not isolate the verse, let alone a portion of it in such a was as to take it out of context.

    An example of that is when I hear people frequently say "...where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them." This is a Biblical quote, but can it actually mean that when I am alone in my car God is not there with me? Absolutely not. There are other passages that tell us that God is with us continually, inside us as a matter of fact, whether we are alone or in a group. So what can the passage mean? Taken in context, it means that when a group of Christians agree that a brother or sister in Christ has sinned and is unrepentant, and that group dis-fellowships, or excommunicates, or shuns (whatever word you want to use) that individual from the fellowship, God is with that decision and the person is put out of Christ. See the context in Matt 18:15-20.
    Awesome. Did you see all the others too?

    There is a balance brother. Randy's posted many scriptures and I've posted a few teaching faith saves and works come after one is saved. You post scriptures that say baptism must be included to be saved... so, if BOTH (all) the sets of scriptures are accurate, what is the teaching conclusion?

    Case in point, you mention that the "thief" didn't have to be baptized to be saved because he is of the Old Covenant. Ok. Question then, What saved a person during the Old Covenant? We know it wasn't "The Law" of Moses... so what does a person during the Old Covenant HAVE to do, to be saved?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  3. #543
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Awesome. Did you see all the others too?

    There is a balance brother. Randy's posted many scriptures and I've posted a few teaching faith saves and works come after one is saved. You post scriptures that say baptism must be included to be saved... so, if BOTH (all) the sets of scriptures are accurate, what is the teaching conclusion?

    Case in point, you mention that the "thief" didn't have to be baptized to be saved because he is of the Old Covenant. Ok. Question then, What saved a person during the Old Covenant? We know it wasn't "The Law" of Moses... so what does a person during the Old Covenant HAVE to do, to be saved?
    Oh yes, I read them all, and many others. They say that neither portion of that verse, belief or baptism, by itself saves. The "teaching conclusion": Both have to be accomplished. Belief and baptism. One without the other is worthless. Belief without obedience is not belief. It is dead, just as faith without works is dead. Baptism without belief just gets you wet: you don't connect with the saving Blood of Christ. Thus, both are required.

    It is very easy to pick out verses that only mention belief and build your doctrine around them to the exclusion of other passages. But we aren't in control of salvation. God is. So we have to please Him, and follow His doctrine. His doctrine is the sum total of all the passages you have pointed out, and the passages I have mentioned. The commands and the examples are all relevant because the point of all the books after the Gospels is to show precedents and examples of how the Church is supposed to operate. There are some exceptions which are noted in the Text as exceptional, like Cornelius. But for the most part, the example of the Apostles, the Elders, and the Deacons appointed in the first century are included in Scripture to be doctrine, teaching, correction, and instruction in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16-17). Thus even if it is just a story, if it is in Scripture it is there to teach us something.

    Randy is adamant that the story of Saul's conversion is just that, a story. But as I have pointed out, it is very instructive in demonstrating that his sins were not washed away when he believed on the road.

    The retelling of Cornelius' conversion in Acts 11 sheds more light on his story. People often just look at Acts 10 and say he was saved because he believed and the Spirit fell on him, and then he was baptized. But Acts 11 says that the Spirit fell on them as Peter began to speak. And as you will agree, Romans 10:14 says you cannot call on someone you have not believe in and you cannot believe on someone you have not heard about, and you cannot hear without a preacher, and the preacher (Peter in this case) had just opened his mouth and had not yet delivered the Gospel.

    As to how people were saved in the OT. Faith in God. In the OT that was displayed in many different ways, because God took a much more hands on approach with mankind then. He told some do one thing, and other do another. But it still came down to faith. Today we all have the same instruction. God doesn't tell you that you just have to believe in Him, and me that I have to be baptized to receive the same blessing. Both of us have the same Scripture and the same instruction. It is simply a matter of are we willing to humble ourselves to His command, ridiculous though it may sound, ie: Naaman, and obey HIM.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    Oh yes, I read them all, and many others. They say that neither portion of that verse, belief or baptism, by itself saves. The "teaching conclusion": Both have to be accomplished. Belief and baptism. One without the other is worthless. Belief without obedience is not belief. It is dead, just as faith without works is dead. Baptism without belief just gets you wet: you don't connect with the saving Blood of Christ. Thus, both are required.

    It is very easy to pick out verses that only mention belief and build your doctrine around them to the exclusion of other passages. But we aren't in control of salvation. God is. So we have to please Him, and follow His doctrine. His doctrine is the sum total of all the passages you have pointed out, and the passages I have mentioned. The commands and the examples are all relevant because the point of all the books after the Gospels is to show precedents and examples of how the Church is supposed to operate. There are some exceptions which are noted in the Text as exceptional, like Cornelius. But for the most part, the example of the Apostles, the Elders, and the Deacons appointed in the first century are included in Scripture to be doctrine, teaching, correction, and instruction in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16-17). Thus even if it is just a story, if it is in Scripture it is there to teach us something.

    Randy is adamant that the story of Saul's conversion is just that, a story. But as I have pointed out, it is very instructive in demonstrating that his sins were not washed away when he believed on the road.

    The retelling of Cornelius' conversion in Acts 11 sheds more light on his story. People often just look at Acts 10 and say he was saved because he believed and the Spirit fell on him, and then he was baptized. But Acts 11 says that the Spirit fell on them as Peter began to speak. And as you will agree, Romans 10:14 says you cannot call on someone you have not believe in and you cannot believe on someone you have not heard about, and you cannot hear without a preacher, and the preacher (Peter in this case) had just opened his mouth and had not yet delivered the Gospel.

    As to how people were saved in the OT. Faith in God. In the OT that was displayed in many different ways, because God took a much more hands on approach with mankind then. He told some do one thing, and other do another. But it still came down to faith. Today we all have the same instruction. God doesn't tell you that you just have to believe in Him, and me that I have to be baptized to receive the same blessing. Both of us have the same Scripture and the same instruction. It is simply a matter of are we willing to humble ourselves to His command, ridiculous though it may sound, ie: Naaman, and obey HIM.
    I have to ask then... on a Friday night at church, when a child (age 19) of a friend you have, their son believes unto Christ at the service. The pastor informs all who accepted Christ this night, on the 2nd Saturday of the month, there will be the monthly discipleship class about baptism and on the last Sunday of every month, the church holds baptisms for all who accepted Christ. Before that Sunday, the child is killed in a car accident.

    Does the pastor tell the parents that their son is not in heaven because he wasn't saved yet, after believing unto Jesus?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  5. #545
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    I have to ask then... on a Friday night at church, when a child (age 19) of a friend you have, their son believes unto Christ at the service. The pastor informs all who accepted Christ this night, on the 2nd Saturday of the month, there will be the monthly discipleship class about baptism and on the last Sunday of every month, the church holds baptisms for all who accepted Christ. Before that Sunday, the child is killed in a car accident.

    Does the pastor tell the parents that their son is not in heaven because he wasn't saved yet, after believing unto Jesus?
    This wouldn't happen because the instant he believed I would take him to the baptistery right then and baptize him. Every Biblical example has the teacher baptize the new believer immediately. There is no Biblical example of a monthly baptismal service. There is no Biblical example of discipleship classes about baptism. The Ethiopian Eunuch said, what is stopping me form being baptized now. Paul took the jailer that very night and baptized him. Ananias told Saul, why do you wait? Arise and be baptized now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    I have to ask then... on a Friday night at church, when a child (age 19) of a friend you have, their son believes unto Christ at the service. The pastor informs all who accepted Christ this night, on the 2nd Saturday of the month, there will be the monthly discipleship class about baptism and on the last Sunday of every month, the church holds baptisms for all who accepted Christ. Before that Sunday, the child is killed in a car accident.

    Does the pastor tell the parents that their son is not in heaven because he wasn't saved yet, after believing unto Jesus?
    This wouldn't happen because the instant he believed I would take him to the baptistery right then and baptize him. Every Biblical example has the teacher baptize the new believer immediately. There is no Biblical example of a monthly baptismal service. There is no Biblical example of discipleship classes about baptism. The Ethiopian Eunuch said, what is stopping me form being baptized now. Paul took the jailer that very night and baptized him. Ananias told Saul, why do you wait? Arise and be baptized now.

  6. #546
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    We are saved by grace through faith, correct? So what is faith? Is it simply another word for belief, an internal, invisible, personal thing that requires no outside evidence? Or is faith something completely different? I believe that the Bible tells us it is much more than belief. But the Bible also sums it up as "belief" frequently, because belief without faith is non-belief. So what is faith?

    Heb 11:1 says, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Thus faith is something tangible. Faith also must be active to be alive, because "faith without works is dead" (James 2:17). Faith encompasses obedience. "Without faith it is impossible to please Him." and "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." Baptism is simply the first act of faith that we take, and it is through faith that we are saved. Not through belief, not through understanding, through faith: through obedience. Thus through baptism we are saved.
    "Faith" is a different subject, but oh well. My view of faith is on the passive side, because we believe in things that only Christ could do. But on the active side, Christ enables us to do things. The point is, we can do nothing without Christ's help. It takes faith.

    So when we believe in Christ for Salvation, there's nothing we can do to get it except to passively receive what he says he wants to give us. There are all kinds of guidance, then, that Christ has for us, if we want to live in his Salvation. And we do need to actively pursue those things.

    After Salvation, there is the walk in the Spirit that follows accepting Christ's spiritual life. And that includes walking in His love, and doing things that testify to the world of the Salvation that Christ gave to it. Water Baptism is but the beginning of this testimony.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    This wouldn't happen because the instant he believed I would take him to the baptistery right then and baptize him. Every Biblical example has the teacher baptize the new believer immediately. There is no Biblical example of a monthly baptismal service. There is no Biblical example of discipleship classes about baptism. The Ethiopian Eunuch said, what is stopping me form being baptized now. Paul took the jailer that very night and baptized him. Ananias told Saul, why do you wait? Arise and be baptized now.
    Thank you for your response... can you now address the question?

    Does the pastor tell the parents that their son is not in heaven because he wasn't saved yet, after believing unto Jesus?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  8. #548
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    This wouldn't happen because the instant he believed I would take him to the baptistery right then and baptize him. Every Biblical example has the teacher baptize the new believer immediately. There is no Biblical example of a monthly baptismal service. There is no Biblical example of discipleship classes about baptism. The Ethiopian Eunuch said, what is stopping me form being baptized now. Paul took the jailer that very night and baptized him. Ananias told Saul, why do you wait? Arise and be baptized now.
    Thank you for your response... can you now address the question?

    Does the pastor tell the parents that their son is not in heaven because he wasn't saved yet, after believing unto Jesus?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  9. #549
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Thank you for your response... can you now address the question?

    Does the pastor tell the parents that their son is not in heaven because he wasn't saved yet, after believing unto Jesus?
    It is an invalid question. It could never happen in a Church that is operating under Biblical example. But let me ask you, has this son been buried with Christ?

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    There has only been one example of someone who's sins had not been washed away when the Spirit fell on them, and that was Cornelius. The purpose of the Spirit falling on him before his sins had been washed away is specified in Acts 11:17-18: to prove to Paul and the other Apostles that the Gentiles were eligible recipients of the Gospel message. This is the only time when someone who was not yet saved received the Spirit.

    Today, my answer to you would be, no, someone who has not had their sins washed away does not receive the Holy Spirit, because, as exemplified in Acts 2 and Acts 22, the Spirit is a gift received in or after baptism.
    Does the bible show where someone has been washed from their sins without baptism ? Yes.

    Does baptism save ? No

    Paul was very clear about Jewish law being negated through the cross and how even circumcision itself was of no value anymore in the redemption process. How would replacing circumcision with baptism be of any profit since he has already made it abundantly clear to the Galatians that no work can save. That no ACTION by man, other than yielding in spiritual belief can save ? And even that in itself is not an action.

    You are replacing one law for another and the scriptures don't support your view. When you isolate scripture as you are doing, then isolate others and see how it works. For instance... Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell all his possession's and follow Him to inherit the kingdom. Does that mean you must ? Jesus was speaking to that particular man because he knew his heart. His stronghold. Jesus told some to be baptized because He knew their heart and their stronghold. But genuine belief and submission will bring salvation, and if Christ desires that someone be baptized, surrender to ministry, and anything else, they will follow.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    It is an invalid question. It could never happen in a Church that is operating under Biblical example. But let me ask you, has this son been buried with Christ?
    That's deflection and you know it.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Were you dead in sin? Yes
    Were you saved by grace? Yes

    Were you part of sin? Yes
    Were you part of grace? No for if you did it would not be grace.

    So how could my salvation not be sure if it was the will of God? It was not because of me or the will of man, but of God. So I was lost, but by God I am being saved so why can't I have assurance of it for it is God? The logic is in God.
    So you were never condemned. That's not scriptural.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    That's deflection and you know it.
    Almost every question posed to Christ was answered with a question. Would you condemn Him for "deflection"?

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    Almost every question posed to Christ was answered with a question. Would you condemn Him for "deflection"?
    That post wasn't to Kali.. Look again. it was for YOU. Answer Slugs question if you dare because it's a valid one.

    And you ain't Jesus.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    It is an invalid question. It could never happen in a Church that is operating under Biblical example. But let me ask you, has this son been buried with Christ?
    It is not an invalid question. We know this because as Philip's example in the Bible shows us, a person cannot be baptized until AFTER they are redeemed by Christ. Thus the reason Philip asked the eunuch about his belief in Christ. Had the eunuch not professed Christ, Philip knew he could not baptize the man because Christ must FIRST redeem a person because they can accomplish their 1st faithful good work as a Christian.

    To answer your question: Yes because redemption/justification means a person has been reborn in Christ, His blood has washed them clean.

    Here is another reason why it is not an invalid question.

    How many people do you know who have testified about praying in repentance to God while alone on some road, at a rest stop, or in the kitchen of their home, or in a latrine in Hohenfels Germany, and while Christ made them born-again, they had not yet found someone to baptize them... would you tell "their" family/friends that their faith amounted to nothing and they are not in heaven because Jesus can't save until man submerges the believer in water??

    Repent and "BE" baptized is a "sign" of a heart that is reborn, thus why baptism is understood as a good work of faith OF one who is saved, not a work that saves (1 Peter 3:21, Acts 10:44+, ohhh, 1 Cor 1:14-17 (always a good one to point to what saves = Christ only)...) I can post more but I want to touch on something more specific in relation to your post/?.

    Buried with Christ, are you referring to this:

    Colossians 2:9 For the entire fullness of God’s nature dwells bodily in Christ, 10 and you have been filled by him, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 You were also circumcised in him with a circumcision not done with hands, by putting off the body of flesh, in the circumcision of Christ, 12 when you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And when you were dead in trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, he made you alive with him and forgave us all our trespasses. 14 He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations, that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and disgraced them publicly; he triumphed over them in him.[c]


    The scripture is specific, a person is first FILLED by Christ (redeemed/justified) and this is what saves a believer, not another believer baptizing them. The baptism is symbolic of the COMPLETED work that Christ has done (lived, died, resurrection) for man to be redeemed = His BLOOD:

    [B]Hebrews 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works so that we can serve the living God?

    15 Therefore, he is the mediator of a new covenant,[c] so that those who are called might receive the promise of the eternal inheritance, because a death has taken place for redemption from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

    Romans 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For rarely will someone die for a just person—though for a good person perhaps someone might even dare to die. 8 But God proves his own love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 How much more then, since we have now been declared righteous by his blood, will we be saved through him from wrath.

    Eph 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace


    All understanding MUST point to and focus ON Christ. If a person is not saved until a man does a work, then the focus is not on the WORK Christ did for all of mankind, the focus is back on what mankind does instead.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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