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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #31
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Originally Posted by Radagast

    How can someone "accept Jesus as their personal Lord/Savior" while deliberately ignoring His command to be baptised?

    Which action by man comes first?

    A person accepts Jesus, He redeems them and THEN in faith, the person who is redeemed CAN be baptized.

    OR

    A person baptizes another person and the person who was baptized, CAN then be redeemed by Jesus.
    Slug1--out

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  2. #32

    Cool Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    No offense taken. But let us see.
    • In resurrection there will be "stars". I did not say this. The Holy Spirit said it in 1st Corinthians 15:41-42
    • In resurrection there will be stars with DIFFERING glories. I did not say this. The Holy Spirit said it
    • The stars are the sons of Abraham as are the "sand of the sea shore" (Heb.11:12)
    • Abraham is father of Israel which are designated "sand of the sea shore".

    Who then are the seed of Abraham who are heavenly stars?
    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    No the Holy Spirit most certainly did not say anything close to that. Paul is illustrating the difference between those who are born again and those who are not. Those who have been renewed, cleansed and changed by grace through faith and those who have not.
    Well, let's see if there is a confirming second witness as whether the Holy Spirit said the saved will shine as stars:

    Daniel 12:2, 3 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

    Oops! It looks like it was confirmed to me.
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  3. #33
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Well, let's see if there is a confirming second witness as whether the Holy Spirit said the saved will shine as stars:

    Daniel 12:2, 3 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

    Oops! It looks like it was confirmed to me.
    I don't believe the issue was whether Christians will shine as stars. The issue, it seems to me, is whether the stars differ in the brightness of their shining, indicating some Christians will be able to grace the Millennial Kingdom, whereas those with "lesser brightness" will be demoted to only Eternal Life.

    I know. It sounds weird, but apparently that's what one brother believes. I can't agree that the Millennial Kingdom is somehow fit only for an "upper echelon" of Christians?

  4. #34
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    What I find interesting about your views is that although we definitely disagree there are parallels with what I believe. This should not be surprising to me since we both base our beliefs on the same Scriptures.

    You divide Christian from Christian based on a variety of elements that validate Salvation and a variety of elements that invalidate Salvation. You say this has to do with entry into the Kingdom, and not about Eternal Life, because all concerned are Christians.

    But my view is that there is a difference between nominal Christians and genuine Christians, such that all that go under the name of "Christian" are not necessarily "true Christians," or Christians that are saved.

    So the same criteria you use to divide Christian in the Millennial Kingdom from Christian with Eternal Life is the same criteria I use to distinguish between nominal, or fake, Christians and genuine spiritual Christianity, or the genuine articles.

    Those who:
    1) cast out demons and yet don't know Christ,
    2) refuse to go to Christ's "marriage feast,"
    3) lack the proper attire for the feast, and
    4) abuse the master's servants...

    These are servants because of their calling as Christians, but are not chosen for Salvation. They are not true Christians.

    These stories were told by Jesus before the beginning of the Christian Church, and applied to Israel, who were still under the Law. They were *all* called to be servants of God. But the ones chosen for Salvation were those who put on the "garment of Christ," treated Jesus' disciples and ministers respectfully, and saw in Christ their God, knowing Him intimately. They worked miracles and cast out demons out of love for Christ, and not out of duty.

    It is my assumption that all men, who are mixed in with the company of those called to be God's servants, can do things without really knowing God intimately, from the heart. They may know God in their mind, experiencing the revelation of who He is. They may understand some of the mysteries of God and prophesy in His name. They may experience the Spirit of God, and recognize in Christ deity.

    But knowing God intimately, from the heart, is different from all that, and requires Rebirth. It requires a love both for God's character and presence. And so, your idea of those who simply have Eternal Life, but not the Millennial Kingdom, are for me those who are lost.

    Baptism is an issue we've already dealt with, so I'm not repeating here. Just thought it might be interesting to point out how I look at this.
    If you would read the scriptures I produced you could not come to your conclusions.
    1. Mark 16:17 says that casting out demons is "sign" that they ARE BELIEVERS
    2. Matthew 22:5-7 clearly show those that refuse the Wedding Supper to be Israel. Who murdered the prophets and had their City destroyed?
    3. Diverse scripture show that a "garment" is one's works (e.g. Rev.19:8). The guest's FAITH is not called into question. He accepted the invitation. He was "called" and "chosen" and "accepted" for the Kingdom, but was cast out for WORKS. So also Galatians 5:21 and Ephesians 5:5.
    4. The abusive servant is the SAME servant that was promised to be "ruler over all His goods". The plain language is "IF THAT SERVANT" (Matt.24:48)

    Once again, you are unwilling to take that which is written. Your objection is based on one argument - "IT MEANS SOMETHING ELSE!" But you would not tolerate this if somebody did this to your writings. And you would never set up your computer by taking the instructions to mean something else.

  5. #35
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    No the Holy Spirit most certainly did not say anything close to that. Paul is illustrating the difference between those who are born again and those who are not. Those who have been renewed, cleansed and changed by grace through faith and those who have not.

    Not multiple kinds/types of Christians. Those who are Christians and those who are not, meaning, the saved ( Christians) and the lost ( those who refuse Christ.)



    I did and still do. I've no idea how you've come to twist the scriptures so far out of context as to come to such bizarre conclusions. I'm honestly baffled as to how you got here.
    And just to be clear - it's not "the Holy Spirit's teachings" I'm saying poppycock and balderdash to it's your out of left field twisting of scriptures and weird doctrine here.
    I notice that you would not counter my arguments. You completely ignored Hebrews 11:12. Neither have you produced any of your own. Let me ask you,
    • did the Holy Spirit indicate that Abraham would have TWO seeds?
    • is one of these seeds earthly and one heavenly? - "sand" and "stars"
    • are the unbelievers EVER called stars?
    • if the believers are stars, does not the Holy Spirit say that the glory on some stars DIFFER, whereas we have to be LIKE Christ in resurrection - TWO diametrically opposing words.
    • are all those examples of BELIEVERS not entering the Kingdom to be discarded?

    And lastly, if my argument is "poppycock and balderdash", why have you not, as one holding the truth, honored me by telling it? Is this not required of a Christian? I hereby challenge you to do your duty and give me the correct understanding of why a Christian who fornicates, is NOT told that he is no longer, or never was a Christian, but is told that he/she will not enter the Kingdom of God? (Gal.5:21; Eph.5:5).

  6. #36
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Well, let's see if there is a confirming second witness as whether the Holy Spirit said the saved will shine as stars:

    Daniel 12:2, 3 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

    Oops! It looks like it was confirmed to me.
    What was confirmed? You not only missed the central points being discussed you obviously misunderstood the disagreement as well.
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  7. #37
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I notice that you would not counter my arguments. You completely ignored Hebrews 11:12. Neither have you produced any of your own. Let me ask you,
    • did the Holy Spirit indicate that Abraham would have TWO seeds?
    • is one of these seeds earthly and one heavenly? - "sand" and "stars"
    • are the unbelievers EVER called stars?
    • if the believers are stars, does not the Holy Spirit say that the glory on some stars DIFFER, whereas we have to be LIKE Christ in resurrection - TWO diametrically opposing words.
    • are all those examples of BELIEVERS not entering the Kingdom to be discarded?

    And lastly, if my argument is "poppycock and balderdash", why have you not, as one holding the truth, honored me by telling it? Is this not required of a Christian? I hereby challenge you to do your duty and give me the correct understanding of why a Christian who fornicates, is NOT told that he is no longer, or never was a Christian, but is told that he/she will not enter the Kingdom of God? (Gal.5:21; Eph.5:5).
    Of course I countered them. In this matter your interpretations and exegesis are contrary to what Scripture clearly teaches and the gospel itself.
    Must I explain the gospel to you? Haven't you been a Christian for many years? Did you not become born again after hearing and responding to the gospel message of Christ's redemptive work?

    And after all of these years you should know that I don't play games when discussing serious subjects. Don't try changing goalposts and leading the discussion into a rabbit hole bro.

    This is the discussion and let's just get right down to it.

    Requiring anything in addition to or other than faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation. To claim that baptism is a required component for salvation is to claim that we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ's death in order to make it sufficient for salvation. That faith and grace, and the blood of Christ are not enough and that Jesus's death didn't fully pay for our sins.
    To claim that Christians that haven't been baptized aren't fellow inheritors of the kingdom rejects what Christ and the gospel itself plainly tells us.

    You want Scriptures? I'll gladly provide some for you.

    John 3: 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

    Ephesians 2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

    11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

    14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

    19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.


    Titus 3 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.


    And of course,

    1 Corinthians Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

    3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

    9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

    12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

    20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,

    “Let us eat and drink,
    for tomorrow we die.”

    33 Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.” 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

    35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

    42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

    If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

    50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”


    Again, claiming that - anything - in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation. You are attempting to add on to the gospel and in doing so are claiming that Christ's death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation. That even more is needed and, in fact, that we through works have a hand in our salvation and earn it.

    I'm certainly not anti-baptism. I truly believe that every Christian should be water baptized by immersion if at all possible and yet I adamantly refuse the false doctrine of baptismal regeneration.
    Water baptism is more than just a "suggestion" to do or not if we wish but it isn't salvific. It happens -after- we have been born again.

  8. #38
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    If you would read the scriptures I produced you could not come to your conclusions.
    1. Mark 16:17 says that casting out demons is "sign" that they ARE BELIEVERS
    2. Matthew 22:5-7 clearly show those that refuse the Wedding Supper to be Israel. Who murdered the prophets and had their City destroyed?
    3. Diverse scripture show that a "garment" is one's works (e.g. Rev.19:8). The guest's FAITH is not called into question. He accepted the invitation. He was "called" and "chosen" and "accepted" for the Kingdom, but was cast out for WORKS. So also Galatians 5:21 and Ephesians 5:5.
    4. The abusive servant is the SAME servant that was promised to be "ruler over all His goods". The plain language is "IF THAT SERVANT" (Matt.24:48)

    Once again, you are unwilling to take that which is written. Your objection is based on one argument - "IT MEANS SOMETHING ELSE!" But you would not tolerate this if somebody did this to your writings. And you would never set up your computer by taking the instructions to mean something else.
    I believe Jesus was speaking *under the era of the Law,* and *speaking to Israel and to Jewish believers.* Being "believers" does not mean that these Jews are what we might consider Reborn Christians, just as we might see today's Liberal Christians as not being true Reborn Christians.

    All Israel were God's People. They were all called to be *believers.* But some of them turned away from their Faith. They apostacized.

    Therefore, being "believers" does not mean they were genuine Reborn Christians. It just means that they started out as God's People, and then became, as Hosea said, "Not My People."

    I labored to show you how we look at this differently. I'm not saying it means "something else." I'm saying it means just what it says.

  9. #39
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Of course I countered them. In this matter your interpretations and exegesis are contrary to what Scripture clearly teaches and the gospel itself.
    Must I explain the gospel to you? Haven't you been a Christian for many years? Did you not become born again after hearing and responding to the gospel message of Christ's redemptive work?

    And after all of these years you should know that I don't play games when discussing serious subjects. Don't try changing goalposts and leading the discussion into a rabbit hole bro.

    This is the discussion and let's just get right down to it.

    Requiring anything in addition to or other than faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation. To claim that baptism is a required component for salvation is to claim that we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ's death in order to make it sufficient for salvation. That faith and grace, and the blood of Christ are not enough and that Jesus's death didn't fully pay for our sins.
    To claim that Christians that haven't been baptized aren't fellow inheritors of the kingdom rejects what Christ and the gospel itself plainly tells us.

    You want Scriptures? I'll gladly provide some for you.

    John 3: 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

    Ephesians 2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

    11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

    14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

    19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

    Titus 3 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.


    And of course,

    1 Corinthians Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

    3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

    9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

    12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

    20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,

    “Let us eat and drink,
    for tomorrow we die.”

    33 Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.” 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

    35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

    42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

    If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

    50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”


    Again, claiming that - anything - in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation. You are attempting to add on to the gospel and in doing so are claiming that Christ's death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation. That even more is needed and, in fact, that we through works have a hand in our salvation and earn it.

    I'm certainly not anti-baptism. I truly believe that every Christian should be water baptized by immersion if at all possible and yet I adamantly refuse the false doctrine of baptismal regeneration.
    Water baptism is more than just a "suggestion" to do or not if we wish but it isn't salvific. It happens -after- we have been born again.
    Brother, with all respect, you did not enter into one of my arguments. You have pointedly ignored them. You asked me if I wanted scriptures, but I did not ask you for them. I asked you to address the seed of Abraham as stars and their DIFFERING glory in resurrection - NOT "Baptismal Regeneration!". You have written much, but these aspects did not appear in my argument, nor were we debating them. My argument is laid forth in the two postings (#25 and #35) you judged as poppycock and balderdash. I await for your answer to them, but I fear you will never address them.

  10. #40
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I believe Jesus was speaking *under the era of the Law,* and *speaking to Israel and to Jewish believers.* Being "believers" does not mean that these Jews are what we might consider Reborn Christians, just as we might see today's Liberal Christians as not being true Reborn Christians.

    All Israel were God's People. They were all called to be *believers.* But some of them turned away from their Faith. They apostacized.

    Therefore, being "believers" does not mean they were genuine Reborn Christians. It just means that they started out as God's People, and then became, as Hosea said, "Not My People."

    I labored to show you how we look at this differently. I'm not saying it means "something else." I'm saying it means just what it says.
    Yes, black means white - but only in the Bible. The Bible says "... these signs shall follow them that believe." Randyk says, "It doesn't mean that. It means unbelievers!" Nothing more is to be said.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Brother, with all respect, you did not enter into one of my arguments. You have pointedly ignored them.
    Wrong brother. I have answered them you just refuse to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    You asked me if I wanted scriptures, but I did not ask you for them. I asked you to address the seed of Abraham as stars and their DIFFERING glory in resurrection - NOT "Baptismal Regeneration!".
    It sure seems to me that you asked for them. You claimed I ignored scriptures you posted and that I hadn't posted any.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    You have written much, but these aspects did not appear in my argument, nor were we debating them.
    It's not my fault if you cannot or have not followed the logic trail and seen the consequences of your statements/teaching here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    My argument is laid forth in the two postings (#25 and #35) you judged as poppycock and balderdash. I await for your answer to them, but I fear you will never address them.
    I've addressed them both with scripture in context and exegesis. You've pulled scriptures out of context in order to try and show that they teach something that they clearly don't and lay down the bold claim of "It's not me that says it it's the Holy Spirit." Thus sayeth the Lord, eh?
    As far as "seeds of Abraham and differing glory in resurrection" I've already told you - I've no idea how you derived such a nonsensical doctrine from Scripture and I explained to you what it actually does say. -Again- I have answered you just refuse to see.

    With all due respect right back, of course you're trying to claim the doctrine of baptismal regeneration - and you've added even more to it along with a works based salvation and that not all who believe on Christ are inheritors. Don't you even know what you yourself are trying to teach here?

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Yes, black means white - but only in the Bible. The Bible says "... these signs shall follow them that believe." Randyk says, "It doesn't mean that. It means unbelievers!" Nothing more is to be said.
    Yes, they started out following Jesus. Many turned away from following him. That is Bible, brother.

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    Cool Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    What was confirmed? You not only missed the central points being discussed you obviously misunderstood the disagreement as well.
    Why don't you enlighten me then?
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Why don't you enlighten me then?
    I'll be glad to.

    Brother Walls has claimed that not only is baptism intrinsic to salvation he has claimed that not all who are born again will enter the kingdom and be with God. Basically his own versions of baptismal regeneration and a works based salvation. That depending on our works some will be saved and like Christ and some will be so unlike Christ that while they will have everlasting life they will still be judged unworthy.
    In order to substantiate his claims he's taken scriptures completely out of context and sprinkled in a few of his own ideas.

    The disagreement wasn't at all about whether Scripture says we will shine like stars after being raised. Scripture plainly states that of course.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Wrong brother. I have answered them you just refuse to see.



    It sure seems to me that you asked for them. You claimed I ignored scriptures you posted and that I hadn't posted any.


    It's not my fault if you cannot or have not followed the logic trail and seen the consequences of your statements/teaching here.



    I've addressed them both with scripture in context and exegesis. You've pulled scriptures out of context in order to try and show that they teach something that they clearly don't and lay down the bold claim of "It's not me that says it it's the Holy Spirit." Thus sayeth the Lord, eh?
    As far as "seeds of Abraham and differing glory in resurrection" I've already told you - I've no idea how you derived such a nonsensical doctrine from Scripture and I explained to you what it actually does say. -Again- I have answered you just refuse to see.

    With all due respect right back, of course you're trying to claim the doctrine of baptismal regeneration - and you've added even more to it along with a works based salvation and that not all who believe on Christ are inheritors. Don't you even know what you yourself are trying to teach here?
    You have yet to find the word or concept of Baptismal Regeneration in any of my postings. You have yet to give one word of exegesis on being LIKE Christ in resurrection. You did not answer some simple questions after you sat in judgement over what I expounded. Your only lengthy answer never touched these subjects. You accuse me of pulling scriptures out of context, yet have not showed the readers which one, why it is out of context and what the true context is. I was, at all times, available to clarify any position I maintained. I would have relished the chance to give more length and depth to my position. So here again I humbly ask you, as the author of poppycock and balderdash, to
    1. show why Baptism causes us to be resurrected LIKE Christ
    2. expound the differing glories of the stars in resurrection
    3. explain how a man who must be LIKE Christ in resurrection, can DIFFER in glory and still enter the Kingdom

    If you think that you have done these already, just point me to the posting number and which paragraph.

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