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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #586
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Where in Scripture was infants excluded of the sign of the covenant? If it was stopped would it not be clearly stated?
    Scripture is silent on infant baptism, which is very telling because scripture is evidently clear about new believers baptism. For instance, the bible is silent on abortion, but is abundantly clear on the sanctity of life so we know as believers that abortion is wrong, and that's just one example of many.

    Fact is that there are no examples of infant baptism in scripture. If you want to go ahead with it , then that's your decision. I don't believe baptism is salvic in nature, so it's not something that I am willing to debate until someone yields.

  2. #587
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Wrong, most reformed churches have infant baptism.

    Still according to the example I have given the person being baptized was not a believer and when he came to faith you said it was not necessary to be baptized again?[/QUOTE]

    Yes, I stand by that view!

    I was raised a catholic, baptized as an infant and had "confirmation" aged 10 when I was old enough to know right and wrong. In case you don't know, Confirmation is a verbal and meaningful profession of faith in God. I am now an evangelical, saved and imbued with the Holy Spirit. Do I need to take another dip in water in the name of baptism? NO! My Saviour who has spoken to me on a few occasions has not demanded that of me.

  3. #588
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Scripture is silent on infant baptism, which is very telling because scripture is evidently clear about new believers baptism. For instance, the bible is silent on abortion, but is abundantly clear on the sanctity of life so we know as believers that abortion is wrong, and that's just one example of many.

    Fact is that there are no examples of infant baptism in scripture. If you want to go ahead with it , then that's your decision. I don't believe baptism is salvic in nature, so it's not something that I am willing to debate until someone yields.
    I know and I have no problem with new believers baptism. We know of families being baptized and the question if children were included or not. The Bible does not say and depending on one's view point the answer will differ. What we do know is that circumcision as a sign of the new covenant was stopped. Now since the covenant was instituted with Abraham there was always a sign given and the child was included in this sign being given to it at eight days old. Was this important to God? Yes for if you did not have the sign you would be cut off or excluded from His people. This is still true today that a believer must be baptized and I believe as in the old covenant also one's children for I did not see that it was ever stopped.

    Baptism is not salvic as circumcision was not, but it is important.

    As I have said many times previously I believe by not giving this sign to your child you in effect take your child out of the covenant and make him in effect the same as an unbeliever with all the risks and consequences of it. For you as an adult it would not make any difference, but for your child it can be catastrophic. So if you want to go ahead, do it but it is not that it is of no effect or consequence.

  4. #589
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    I know and I have no problem with new believers baptism. We know of families being baptized and the question if children were included or not. The Bible does not say and depending on one's view point the answer will differ. What we do know is that circumcision as a sign of the new covenant was stopped. Now since the covenant was instituted with Abraham there was always a sign given and the child was included in this sign being given to it at eight days old. Was this important to God? Yes for if you did not have the sign you would be cut off or excluded from His people. This is still true today that a believer must be baptized and I believe as in the old covenant also one's children for I did not see that it was ever stopped.

    Baptism is not salvic as circumcision was not, but it is important.

    As I have said many times previously I believe by not giving this sign to your child you in effect take your child out of the covenant and make him in effect the same as an unbeliever with all the risks and consequences of it. For you as an adult it would not make any difference, but for your child it can be catastrophic. So if you want to go ahead, do it but it is not that it is of no effect or consequence.
    There is a distinction from the Old Covenant birth into Israel and circumcision, and the New Covenant birth and baptism. They are performed AT BIRTH. One was the physical birth the other a spiritual one. Spiritual birth via John 3 is the scriptural basis for baptism.

  5. #590
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    I would ask you which is more scripturally accurate though. Baptism after professing Christ as Lord via New Birth, or infant baptism. It's a simple question.

  6. #591
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    There is a distinction from the Old Covenant birth into Israel and circumcision, and the New Covenant birth and baptism. They are performed AT BIRTH. One was the physical birth the other a spiritual one. Spiritual birth via John 3 is the scriptural basis for baptism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    I would ask you which is more scripturally accurate though. Baptism after professing Christ as Lord via New Birth, or infant baptism. It's a simple question.
    When did the Spiritual birth took place according to John 3?

    Both are accurate. For new believers after professing Christ as Lord, for children of believers as infants or when their parents came to faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    There is a distinction from the Old Covenant birth into Israel and circumcision, and the New Covenant birth and baptism. They are performed AT BIRTH. One was the physical birth the other a spiritual one. Spiritual birth via John 3 is the scriptural basis for baptism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    I would ask you which is more scripturally accurate though. Baptism after professing Christ as Lord via New Birth, or infant baptism. It's a simple question.
    When did the Spiritual birth took place according to John 3?

    Both are accurate. For new believers after professing Christ as Lord, for children of believers as infants or when their parents came to faith.

  7. #592
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    When did the Spiritual birth took place according to John 3?
    Upon reception of the Holy Spirit by faith.

    Both are accurate. For new believers after professing Christ as Lord, for children of believers as infants or when their parents came to faith.
    Does one doctrine have more biblical evidence than the other ?

    When did the Spiritual birth took place according to John 3?
    Upon reception of the Holy Spirit by faith.

    Both are accurate. For new believers after professing Christ as Lord, for children of believers as infants or when their parents came to faith.
    Does one doctrine have more biblical evidence than the other ?

  8. #593
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Bump for a reply Kali... Does immersion after reception of the Holy Spirit have more biblical references that does infant baptism ?

  9. #594
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Upon reception of the Holy Spirit by faith.
    I have reread Joh 3 and I do not see this there. Can you perhaps give me the verse?

    Does one doctrine have more biblical evidence than the other ?
    IMO no, both are clear in Scripture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Upon reception of the Holy Spirit by faith.
    I have reread Joh 3 and I do not see this there. Can you perhaps give me the verse?

    Does one doctrine have more biblical evidence than the other ?
    IMO no, both are clear in Scripture.

  10. #595
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Does one doctrine actually , physically appear in scripture ? And another one physically does not appear in scripture ?

    Concerning John 3 - Start at vs. 5. "Jesus answered " Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised by what I'm saying, You must be born again."

    1. A person must be born of the flesh - actual physical birth.
    2. A person must be born of the spirit but the Spirit = saved - justified - born again.

    Someone who is baptized is marked as a believer. An infant cannot be marked as a believer if they have yet to be born of the spirit because at this time they are only born of the flesh. Baptism is for believers Kali. I've seen every sort of wickedness justified where the RCC is prevalent and infant baptism is performed. It's a big obstacle to deal with when trying to get people to understand that simply because they were sprinkled as a child that they are justified. Do a little research on the RCC and their beliefs about how baptism justifies. It's heretical.

    I don't think for a second that you believe that. So I digress a little. But know that the biblical example of baptism is physically shown to be performed on professing believers in Jesus Christ alone. There is no example, and no scripture that can be provided that shows infant baptisms performed, or endorsed.

    Prove me wrong. Show me the CLEAR examples of infant baptism or the CLEAR scriptures that show it to be acceptable.

  11. #596
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You're wrong.
    1) Cornelius received the Spirit from the work of Jesus, and not from the OT system, which Jesus died to liberate Israel from. The Law held the promise of Salvation, but held Israel in bondage to the curse of sin until Jesus liberated them from that system.

    John 14.26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

    John the Baptist plainly said that the coming of the Spirit would be a baptism from Jesus, and not from the OT Law. Clearly, the Spirit of God operated under the Law during the OT era. But after Christ's work on the cross, the Spirit came to confirm a New Covenant operation. And that's what Cornelius was both promised and experienced.

    2) You admit that the Spirit fell upon Cornelius while Peter was speaking to him, and yet claim that it was before Peter even said enough to him to preach Jesus to him. Clearly, the text indicates that Peter had been preaching Jesus to Cornelius *before* the Spirit fell on him. In fact, the implication is that the Spirit fell on him *because* he had been preaching to him, and had received what Peter had been telling him. I'll quote it for you again....

    Acts 10.34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

    39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

    44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.


    It is plain and simple that Peter began to speak to Cornelius in vs. 34. And that is plain because the words of Peter are recorded right after that. That means Peter actually spoke, and didn't just begin to speak, without actually saying anything. Not only did he begin to speak, but he proceeded to provide truth about Jesus that Cornelius could believe in. And then we see that Cornelius received that word, resulting in his being filled with the Holy Spirit.

    You completely reverse this, in order to establish *false doctrine.* You claim the Law is still in effect, and that the Holy Spirit anointed the Law. Certainly, the Holy Spirit operated under the Law while that Covenant was still in effect. But Jesus died to liberate Israel from the curse of the Law, and from the ceremonies that illustrated their continuing bondage.
    You LIE. I did not say the Spirit fell on them because of the OT system. I said It could fall on them because they would have been saved under the OT system if it had remained in effect until that day.

    And I don't claim anything. Scripture says it. You focus only on Acts 10 because what it says corresponds with what you want to believe, but Acts 11 says differently. The Spirit fell on them "... as I began to speak...".

    Again you LIE. The Law is not in effect. I have argued that many times in this forum in other threads. I argue only what the Word says, and It is clear. "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." Not he who believes only. Not he who believes and repents (although that is essential as recorded elsewhere). Not he who believes and prays for God to enter his heart. Not he who believes and kisses the popes ring (lol).

  12. #597
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    You LIE. I did not say the Spirit fell on them because of the OT system. I said It could fall on them because they would have been saved under the OT system if it had remained in effect until that day.

    And I don't claim anything. Scripture says it. You focus only on Acts 10 because what it says corresponds with what you want to believe, but Acts 11 says differently. The Spirit fell on them "... as I began to speak...".

    Again you LIE. The Law is not in effect. I have argued that many times in this forum in other threads. I argue only what the Word says, and It is clear. "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." Not he who believes only. Not he who believes and repents (although that is essential as recorded elsewhere). Not he who believes and prays for God to enter his heart. Not he who believes and kisses the popes ring (lol).
    Baptized in what ? Water, or the Holy Spirit ?

  13. #598
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Brother, part of your post here is eisegesis in nature. Yes, Cornelius (and family/friends) feared God but there is an element about salvation that is prominent. HEARING! So two elements of salvation were missing in these Gentiles lives, 1) Hearing the Gospel and 2) the Holy Spirit.

    They received BOTH and this was the evidence that Peter needed (but there is more in these two needs) that the Gentiles before him HAD BEEN SAVED by Christ. The other need was God's need to PROVE to the Jews, specifically Peter, they salvation was ALSO for the Gentiles. Once Peter witnessed what the Holy Spirit was doing INSIDE of them as tongues manifested, OUTSIDE of them... a gifting given ONLY to people who are MEMBERS of the Body and who are SEALED by, the Holy Spirit. Once Peter witnessed this, then he knew he also needed to help them with their first good work of faith.

    Brother, if Peter never water baptized them, those Gentiles would still be saved because the evidence that the Holy Spirit made them Born-again, is evident to even you and I. If Peter never baptized them, the Holy Spirit would NOT leave them and render them, UN-Born-again.

    Just as man can't save a un-saved person by baptizing an un-saved person in water, man can't un-save a saved person by not baptizing a saved person.
    They had not heard the Word (according to Acts 11) when the Spirit fell on them. Acts 11:18 tells us why the Spirit fell on these non-believing, non-repentant individuals who had not yet called on the Lord's Name (they didn't even know it yet), who had not yet been buried with Christ in baptism. You would agree that all these things (with the exception of baptism in your belief) must take place before salvation occurs. But they had done none of them.

    If Peter never baptized them, then they never would have been saved because they never would have been buried with Christ, to arise to a new life with Christ, and had their sins washed away in Christ's Blood. A man cannot be saved without obedience to Christ's command. Belief alone does not save. Calling on Jesus' name alone does not save. Repentance alone does not save. "If you love me, keep my commandments." and "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." And Jesus commanded, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved..."

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I would think not. I believe that if such a person eventually truly comes to faith, he will receive the indwelling Holy Spirit thereby negating the need to be dipped in water again.
    If he was just "dipped in water" because all his friends were doing it and didn't have the faith that he was being baptized into Christ, and into His death, then he just got wet the first time and the Blood was not poured over him. His faith, not his friends' faith, is required. He had none, if he just wanted to be part of the "in" crowd who had faith and were baptized accordingly.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    On the contrary, no one can receive the Holy Spirit without believing in God first. John 14:17 says the world [unbelivers] cannot receive it. Looks like your understanding of "belief, repentance and confessing Christ" needs a little tweaking to bring it up to date. You said that Cornelius had not heard the Gospel hitherto, so I'm glad you cited Acts 11:15. What do you reckon Peter was speaking to him about, surely, not the weather or current affairs?

    To understand that Cornelius was saved BEFORE the Holy Spirit fell on him, let's go back a little bit.

    Acts 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

    3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
    4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.


    From the above, we learn that:

    1. He was a devout/righteous man.
    2. God sent an angel not to condemn him of sin, but to exhort and confirm that his relationship with God is acceptable and approved.

    With this background, what happened in chapt 11 was ergo, a foregone conclusion, more like a seal on what is already approved and ordained.
    They did believe in God. God had been speaking to Cornelius, the patriarch of his family, presumably for a long time. He was a devout man, who trusted and obeyed God. But he didn't know Jesus yet. And upon coming into the NT era, he was now required to obey the NT Gospel. But God didn't tell him about Jesus directly, he sent Peter to preach to him.

    As I said in a much earlier post, he would have been saved under the OT (patriarchal era), but was now in the NT era. Thus he needed only to hear of Jesus from a source approved by God (Peter), to believe the Gospel, and obey it. He had not yet heard it, nor obeyed it when the Spirit fell on him and his house.

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