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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #601
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Please note, Michael, that this message was directed at Jews who needed to "repent." What about those who didn't need to repent, who had been walking with God?
    All have sinned. And any sin, whether you grew up in a Christian home or not, separates you from God. All must therefore repent, and turn to God through Christ.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Baptized in what ? Water, or the Holy Spirit ?
    Water

    Eph 4:4 - There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    The baptism of the Holy Spirit happened only twice in all of Scripture. Once on Pentecost to the Apostles and those with them. Then to Cornelius and those with him. These two events had powerful significance. NT Salvation came to the Jews first (Apostles), and then to the Gentiles (Cornelius). The message was the same in both cases: The NT Church (God's Kingdom) was established, with the Jews first, and then the Gentiles.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Does one doctrine actually , physically appear in scripture ? And another one physically does not appear in scripture ?

    Concerning John 3 - Start at vs. 5. "Jesus answered " Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised by what I'm saying, You must be born again."

    1. A person must be born of the flesh - actual physical birth.
    2. A person must be born of the spirit but the Spirit = saved - justified - born again.

    Someone who is baptized is marked as a believer. An infant cannot be marked as a believer if they have yet to be born of the spirit because at this time they are only born of the flesh. Baptism is for believers Kali. I've seen every sort of wickedness justified where the RCC is prevalent and infant baptism is performed. It's a big obstacle to deal with when trying to get people to understand that simply because they were sprinkled as a child that they are justified. Do a little research on the RCC and their beliefs about how baptism justifies. It's heretical.

    I don't think for a second that you believe that. So I digress a little. But know that the biblical example of baptism is physically shown to be performed on professing believers in Jesus Christ alone. There is no example, and no scripture that can be provided that shows infant baptisms performed, or endorsed.

    Prove me wrong. Show me the CLEAR examples of infant baptism or the CLEAR scriptures that show it to be acceptable.
    I agree that a person must be born by spirit and flesh, but Joh 3 does not say when you are born from above. It is like the wind, the Spirit of God is a free agent in regeneration, he works how, and where, and when he pleases; he acts freely in the first operation of his grace on the heart, and in all after influences of it; as well as in the donation of his gifts to men, for different purposes and this grace of the Spirit in regeneration, like the wind, is powerful and irresistible; it carries all before it; there is no withstanding it; it throws down Satan's strong holds, demolishes the fortifications of sin; the whole posse of hell, and the corruptions of a man's heart, are not a match for it; when the Spirit works, who can let? - Gill

    To me baptism is not only the sign of being a believer, it is much more. When adults came to faith where the Gospel was not preached before, they are baptized after they confessed their faith, for as you said it is for believers only. Scripture are full of examples of this.

    But baptism is not only a believers baptism but also as a sign of God's covenant from which the children of believers were always included. All of this through and by the grace of God. In the work of salvation it is God who is first, not man. Joh 3:3,5; 6:37; 1 Joh 4:19.

    On the basis of passages such as Mat 19:13-15; Acts 16:15, 33; Col 2:11-12 the belief that since the little children of believers belong to God's church and his covenant, baptism, the sign and seal of such belonging, should not be withheld from them and must be regarded as well founded.

    If one would say that ones salvation is depended on ones faith and prerequisite of being a child of God, then becomes the action of ones faith (fides quae creditur) ones own responsibility, something that one must do to be saved. Of course one must belief but it is not believing that saves, but only Christ. It is in Him that we belief (fides qua creditur) and He saves us. Faith is then changed into something that is a work of man and not believing in the work of Christ. All then becomes the responsibility of man's repentance and faith and do harm to God's grace and understanding of it. Paul confirms in his letter to the Ephesians that we are saved by grace through faith which are gifts of God and therefore have we nothing to boast.

    To show us the reality and working of His grace and faithfulness in our lives God gave us the Sacraments of baptism and communion. Baptism is the once and not repeatable assurance of God's faithfulness and therefore the sacrament for the incorporation into the body of Christ by baptism by grace. Holy communion is the repeatable assurance of God's lasting grace and our oneness in Christ.

    So it is proven in Scripture that the children of believers were always included in God's covenant and they were never excluded from receiving the sign of God's covenant. There is no evidence in Scripture that this was changed with the new covenant. Now since baptism is also a sign of the covenant it must be given to the children of believers as we saw that all in a family was baptized when the parents came to faith.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    They had not heard the Word (according to Acts 11) when the Spirit fell on them. Acts 11:18 tells us why the Spirit fell on these non-believing, non-repentant individuals who had not yet called on the Lord's Name (they didn't even know it yet), who had not yet been buried with Christ in baptism. You would agree that all these things (with the exception of baptism in your belief) must take place before salvation occurs. But they had done none of them.

    If Peter never baptized them, then they never would have been saved because they never would have been buried with Christ, to arise to a new life with Christ, and had their sins washed away in Christ's Blood. A man cannot be saved without obedience to Christ's command. Belief alone does not save. Calling on Jesus' name alone does not save. Repentance alone does not save. "If you love me, keep my commandments." and "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." And Jesus commanded, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved..."
    If you are gonna use Acts 11 in this manner, what is the context related to v16 then?

    Context = Jesus first redeems a person (baptizes with the Holy Spirit), better known as being "Born-again," and then, man is ALLOWED to baptize in water as faith is expressed to the world to declare (representation) of the work that Jesus completed in redeeming a believer.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    All have sinned. And any sin, whether you grew up in a Christian home or not, separates you from God. All must therefore repent, and turn to God through Christ.
    I'm not denying that all men sin! I'm saying that some men live in righteousness by devoting their lives to Christ. Men thus devoted do not need to be baptized to repent of a life of sin! I would've thought you could see the difference?

  6. #606
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    If you are gonna use Acts 11 in this manner, what is the context related to v16 then?

    Context = Jesus first redeems a person (baptizes with the Holy Spirit), better known as being "Born-again," and then, man is ALLOWED to baptize in water as faith is expressed to the world to declare (representation) of the work that Jesus completed in redeeming a believer.
    I don't know where you got your idea, but in every other case in Scripture, and we today, receive the Holy Spirit IN baptism; NOT before. Man is not saved before baptism. He is saved during baptism. We die going into the water, "buried with Him in baptism", and are born again, "raised to walk in newness of life" from the water. In the water is where our sins are washed away, "Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord." and "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

    Acts 11:16 describes when Peter accepted the inclusion of Gentiles into Israel (the Church) to be saved in the NT era. He accepted that God found Gentiles acceptable to be grafted into His tree (Rom 11:19-21), so he should not stand in His way. They were not yet grafted in. They had to obey the same Gospel you and I have to obey today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    If you are gonna use Acts 11 in this manner, what is the context related to v16 then?

    Context = Jesus first redeems a person (baptizes with the Holy Spirit), better known as being "Born-again," and then, man is ALLOWED to baptize in water as faith is expressed to the world to declare (representation) of the work that Jesus completed in redeeming a believer.
    I don't know where you got your idea, but in every other case in Scripture, and we today, receive the Holy Spirit IN baptism; NOT before. Man is not saved before baptism. He is saved during baptism. We die going into the water, "buried with Him in baptism", and are born again, "raised to walk in newness of life" from the water. In the water is where our sins are washed away, "Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord." and "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

    Acts 11:16 describes when Peter accepted the inclusion of Gentiles into Israel (the Church) to be saved in the NT era. He accepted that God found Gentiles acceptable to be grafted into His tree (Rom 11:19-21), so he should not stand in His way. They were not yet grafted in. They had to obey the same Gospel you and I have to obey today.

  7. #607
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    I don't know where you got your idea, but in every other case in Scripture, and we today, receive the Holy Spirit IN baptism; NOT before. Man is not saved before baptism. He is saved during baptism. We die going into the water, "buried with Him in baptism", and are born again, "raised to walk in newness of life" from the water. In the water is where our sins are washed away, "Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord." and "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

    Acts 11:16 describes when Peter accepted the inclusion of Gentiles into Israel (the Church) to be saved in the NT era. He accepted that God found Gentiles acceptable to be grafted into His tree (Rom 11:19-21), so he should not stand in His way. They were not yet grafted in. They had to obey the same Gospel you and I have to obey today.
    Ephesians 1:13-14 refutes your position. The moment a person believes, they are sealed, Born-Again. 1 Cor 12:13 states we are baptized BY the Holy Spirit unto salvation. You are saying that the Holy Spirit can't do this UNTIL a man first baptizes in water.

    You are changing the Gospel message.

    Check this out, as I paraphrase the scriptures to FIT your changed Gospel: Marked by {edits}

    Romans 5:Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith {not until after a man baptizes you in water}, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ {after a man baptizes you in water}. 2 We have also obtained access through him by faith {again, not until AFTER a man baptizes you} into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope {not yet, but only after you are baptized in water by a man} of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also rejoice in our afflictions {if you aren't baptized in water, NOPE}, because we know that affliction produces endurance {none for you until after a water baptism}, 4 endurance produces proven character, and proven character produces hope {no hope until a man baptizes you in water}. 5 This hope will not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.... {BUT NOT UNTIL A MAN BAPTIZES YOU IN WATER}

    1 Cor 2:10 Now God has revealed these things to us by the Spirit, since the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts[d] except his spirit within him? In the same way, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who comes from God, so that we may understand what has been freely given to us by God. {NOT FREELY GIVEN UNTIL A MAN HAS FIRST BAPTIZED YOU IN WATER, THEN FREELY GIVEN...}

    I can choose MANY other scriptures that must be changed to support your altered Gospel message.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Doug , is BELIEF that baptism is required for justification a requirement for salvation ? In other words, I've repented , believed in faith, and have been baptized.... but if I don't believe that baptism is salvic, am I still justified ?

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not denying that all men sin! I'm saying that some men live in righteousness by devoting their lives to Christ. Men thus devoted do not need to be baptized to repent of a life of sin! I would've thought you could see the difference?
    Sure seems that 1 provision of evidence that is provided in the Bible FOR a person who is (has been) saved, this FIRST work is to be baptized.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not denying that all men sin! I'm saying that some men live in righteousness by devoting their lives to Christ. Men thus devoted do not need to be baptized to repent of a life of sin! I would've thought you could see the difference?
    There is no difference. Whether you grew up in a pagan home worshiping demons in voodoo, or living in a Christian home and learning about God and Jesus makes no difference when coming to a personal belief in Jesus. It is not your parent's belief and faith that saves you. My children will not be saved if, when they begin to understand the meaning of Christ's sacrifice and their sinful state, don't confess Jesus' name, repent of the sins they have committed, and be baptized for the remission of those sins. There is no separation in Scripture for the children who grew up in Believer's homes. Most of the NT was written 20 to 30 years after Christ. Numerous children were born to those who believed during this time, and some would have already grown to adulthood by the time these letters were written. Do you not think that it would have been explained in those letters if those children didn't need to be baptized into Christ and into His death? The implication in Romans 6:2-4 is that those who are not baptized into His death will not be raised with Him, because they have not died to sin.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    There is no difference. Whether you grew up in a pagan home worshiping demons in voodoo, or living in a Christian home and learning about God and Jesus makes no difference when coming to a personal belief in Jesus. It is not your parent's belief and faith that saves you. My children will not be saved if, when they begin to understand the meaning of Christ's sacrifice and their sinful state, don't confess Jesus' name, repent of the sins they have committed, and be baptized for the remission of those sins. There is no separation in Scripture for the children who grew up in Believer's homes. Most of the NT was written 20 to 30 years after Christ. Numerous children were born to those who believed during this time, and some would have already grown to adulthood by the time these letters were written. Do you not think that it would have been explained in those letters if those children didn't need to be baptized into Christ and into His death? The implication in Romans 6:2-4 is that those who are not baptized into His death will not be raised with Him, because they have not died to sin.
    Doug I am so glad this is not the truth according to Scripture!

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Ephesians 1:13-14 refutes your position. The moment a person believes, they are sealed, Born-Again. 1 Cor 12:13 states we are baptized BY the Holy Spirit unto salvation. You are saying that the Holy Spirit can't do this UNTIL a man first baptizes in water.

    You are changing the Gospel message.

    Check this out, as I paraphrase the scriptures to FIT your changed Gospel: Marked by {edits}

    Romans 5:Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith {not until after a man baptizes you in water}, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ {after a man baptizes you in water}. 2 We have also obtained access through him by faith {again, not until AFTER a man baptizes you} into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope {not yet, but only after you are baptized in water by a man} of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also rejoice in our afflictions {if you aren't baptized in water, NOPE}, because we know that affliction produces endurance {none for you until after a water baptism}, 4 endurance produces proven character, and proven character produces hope {no hope until a man baptizes you in water}. 5 This hope will not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.... {BUT NOT UNTIL A MAN BAPTIZES YOU IN WATER}

    1 Cor 2:10 Now God has revealed these things to us by the Spirit, since the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts[d] except his spirit within him? In the same way, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who comes from God, so that we may understand what has been freely given to us by God. {NOT FREELY GIVEN UNTIL A MAN HAS FIRST BAPTIZED YOU IN WATER, THEN FREELY GIVEN...}

    I can choose MANY other scriptures that must be changed to support your altered Gospel message.
    Eph 1:13-14 confirms my position, not refutes it.
    "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

    So after you heard the Word, you believed, and then were sealed with the Holy Spirit. Now when does the Spirit seal us. Certainly it is after we believe, yes? But it does not, here, tell us at what point we are sealed other than after belief. We have to look elsewhere to see that, and in multiple passages we are told it is in the water of baptism.

    I have asked before, what is faith? Faith is our belief in action. It is, in part, our obedience to the Gospel. Thus, being baptized is faith. And it is through faith that we are saved by Grace. The passages you list are written to believers who have already followed the path to salvation. In chapter 6 they are reminded that they were baptized into Christ, and being united with Him in death they are united with Him in resurrection. Here in chapter 5, Paul assumes that they understand faith to be active and a response to our belief as described in James 2 and other passages.

    When does Scripture say we receive the Spirit? Clearly in Eph 1 we are told it is after belief, but are there any other passages that tell us of things that must come first also? Acts 2:38, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. So belief only is not enough. Yes it is required that we believe, but baptism must also come before the indwelling of the Spirit.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Originally Posted by Doug Brents
    Eph 1:13-14 confirms my position, not refutes it.
    "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

    So after you heard the Word, you believed, and then were sealed with the Holy Spirit. Now when does the Spirit seal us. Certainly it is after we believe, yes? But it does not, here, tell us at what point we are sealed other than after belief. We have to look elsewhere to see that, and in multiple passages we are told it is in the water of baptism.

    I have asked before, what is faith? Faith is our belief in action. It is, in part, our obedience to the Gospel. Thus, being baptized is faith. And it is through faith that we are saved by Grace. The passages you list are written to believers who have already followed the path to salvation. In chapter 6 they are reminded that they were baptized into Christ, and being united with Him in death they are united with Him in resurrection. Here in chapter 5, Paul assumes that they understand faith to be active and a response to our belief as described in James 2 and other passages.

    When does Scripture say we receive the Spirit? Clearly in Eph 1 we are told it is after belief, but are there any other passages that tell us of things that must come first also? Acts 2:38, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. So belief only is not enough. Yes it is required that we believe, but baptism must also come before the indwelling of the Spirit.



    Brother, there is a context, meaning: either apart from the other do not show the other is wrong.

    Both are correct and divide/compliment each other.

    Meaning, by hermeneutics and exegesis, what are both scriptures teaching?

    Question, by sealing us in the Holy Spirit, God is claiming the believer "as His."

    Are you saying, He can't do this until a man first baptizes a believer... God has to hold-off in sealing the believer?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Doug , is BELIEF that baptism is required for justification a requirement for salvation ? In other words, I've repented , believed in faith, and have been baptized.... but if I don't believe that baptism is salvic, am I still justified ?
    Let me paraphrase your question to see if I understand what you are asking. If, as you teach, you are saved when you believe, and you go into the water thinking you are already washed clean, and the purpose of baptism in your mind is to show others what you believe already happened in your heart, are you saved?

    I would have to say no, you are not saved. Scripture gives the reasons for baptism in several places, and none of them are as a confirmation of our salvation.

    The prerequisites for forgiveness of sins is belief in Jesus as the Son of God, public profession of that belief, repentance from sin, and baptism into Christ. If all of that except the baptism take place today, and you are not baptized for a month, then you are not saved until the baptism. But if you are baptized for any reason other than belief in Christ then you just got wet, and the Blood did not wash you.

    2 Thes 1:3-10 with emphasis on vs 8, "We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed."

    Who then will God take vengeance on? Those who do not know God. And also those who know Him but do not OBEY the gospel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Doug , is BELIEF that baptism is required for justification a requirement for salvation ? In other words, I've repented , believed in faith, and have been baptized.... but if I don't believe that baptism is salvic, am I still justified ?
    Let me paraphrase your question to see if I understand what you are asking. If, as you teach, you are saved when you believe, and you go into the water thinking you are already washed clean, and the purpose of baptism in your mind is to show others what you believe already happened in your heart, are you saved?

    I would have to say no, you are not saved. Scripture gives the reasons for baptism in several places, and none of them are as a confirmation of our salvation.

    The prerequisites for forgiveness of sins is belief in Jesus as the Son of God, public profession of that belief, repentance from sin, and baptism into Christ. If all of that except the baptism take place today, and you are not baptized for a month, then you are not saved until the baptism. But if you are baptized for any reason other than belief in Christ then you just got wet, and the Blood did not wash you.

    2 Thes 1:3-10 with emphasis on vs 8, "We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed."

    Who then will God take vengeance on? Those who do not know God. And also those who know Him but do not OBEY the gospel.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Doug I am so glad this is not the truth according to Scripture!
    Then you need to go back and read your Scripture some more, because this is the truth written in Scripture.

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