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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #631
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Tradition--not Bible! Just find yourself anywhere that baptism is proposed for someone living in righteousness (aside from Jesus, of course).
    Jesus commanded us to remember Him through the breaking of bread and drinking of the fruit of the vine. Do you consider Communion a "Tradition" only and not Biblical? Jesus led by example, gave us the example of a Communion... is His example of a baptism any less an example that one of His examples can be written off as a "tradition." Or do you write off both these examples, BOTH of which are commanded to be accomplished as Jesus led the way in obedience?

    You know my position, either of these works of righteousness are NOT salvic, but BOTH are commanded.

    Do you also write off Communion as well?
    Slug1--out

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

    How does the context of this verse fit in with your boasting about how you weren't saved until another man submerged you in water? Also, how does the context of this verse allow you to determine another's salvation when they have not yet had another man submerge them in water?

    You are changing the message of the Gospel by saying that faith doesn't save

    Have you ever read the Parable of the Sower? Jesus spells it out, the devil doesn't have to prevent a baptism to prevent salvation, the devil has to prevent belief ONLY, to prevent a person from being saved. He does this by stealing the Gospel (blinding and deafening) the lost.

    Your teachings teach that Jesus doesn't save WHEN HE SAYS He does... go ahead, read the parable.
    Baptism is not a "WORK". Just as repentance, confession, and belief are not works. But they are all physical actions that must be taken to receive salvation. It is surrender to His will. Faith does save. Faith includes our action in response to our belief. You show me your faith without works (actions) (you can't, there is no such thing. It is dead.), and I will show you my faith by my works (actions), (James 2:18).

    I have changed nothing in the Gospel. The Parable of the Sower says nothing about when salvation occurs. I says, "But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit..." (Matt 13:23). It says nothing about belief or obedience. Are we to assume then that all we have to do is understand the Gospel, we don't have to believe it, or obey it, to be saved? No. Understanding alone is not enough.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    But they are all physical actions that must be taken to receive salvation.
    Good grief!

    Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” ... For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” ... For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Romans 10)

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Jesus commanded us to remember Him through the breaking of bread and drinking of the fruit of the vine. Do you consider Communion a "Tradition" only and not Biblical? Jesus led by example, gave us the example of a Communion... is His example of a baptism any less an example that one of His examples can be written off as a "tradition." Or do you write off both these examples, BOTH of which are commanded to be accomplished as Jesus led the way in obedience?

    You know my position, either of these works of righteousness are NOT salvic, but BOTH are commanded.

    Do you also write off Communion as well?
    No, I do not group Communion together with Baptism, though I consider them both legitimate *traditions.* There are good traditions and bad traditions. I don't consider either one a binding regulation, or legalistic command.

    Salvation is not based on these kinds of religious works. Rather, our Salvation is based on *Christ's works of redemption alone.* Our works consist of accepting what Christ did, and then following up on that acceptance. Baptism and Communion are sanctioned ways of following up on our acceptance of what Christ did. It provides us with a path forward, by way of tradition.

    So we are both agreed that neither Communion nor Baptism has a thing to do with our Salvation. On the other hand, I do believe they were recommended traditions, though there is a sense of a command to couple Water Baptism with the Gospel message in the initial preaching of the Gospel by the Apostles. There is nothing beyond this initial apostolic tradition that requires anything more than the kind of commitment that Water Baptism represented, symbolically.

    Jesus said, regarding Communion, "as often as you do this." In other words, it did not have to take place at all. But if it did, and it was indeed recommended, then it should be done in so and so particular way. In other words, it should be done with the utmost seriousness or gravity.

    I think we should recognize that in context, commands to perform these traditions were not requiring the traditions themselves, but more, the things they actually represented. Communion represents our participation in and our union with Christ, spiritually. This is the important thing--not the tradition.

    It's the same with Water Baptism. What Christ was making essential was not the external act of Water Baptism itself, but more, the things it represented. It represented living life to the full for Christ, and to die to one's Self. We have to completely commit to the spirituality of Christ, and die to our sinful flesh--to our autonomous way of living. The external tradition itself is not the thing Christ's command was truly focused on, in my consideration.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    I would reiterate that Water Baptism and Communion are legitimate tools Christ gave us to accomplish the things they represent, a committed spiritual life. To throw out these traditions is to throw out the tools he gave us to help us with these things. They are not the things themselves, but tools to help us with them. They should be practiced when they are needed. They are not to be used as a form of legalistic bondage, however.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    Baptism is not a "WORK". Just as repentance, confession, and belief are not works. But they are all physical actions that must be taken to receive salvation. It is surrender to His will. Faith does save. Faith includes our action in response to our belief. You show me your faith without works (actions) (you can't, there is no such thing. It is dead.), and I will show you my faith by my works (actions), (James 2:18).

    I have changed nothing in the Gospel. The Parable of the Sower says nothing about when salvation occurs. I says, "But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit..." (Matt 13:23). It says nothing about belief or obedience. Are we to assume then that all we have to do is understand the Gospel, we don't have to believe it, or obey it, to be saved? No. Understanding alone is not enough.
    If something is "done" to receive something, then a "work" is being done. However, what you fail to understand is the "work" that saves WAS COMPLETED in Christ though His Blood. By faith, all that one has to do, to REAP the work of His sacrifice (work of His Blood) is to only... BELIEVE.

    Anything we do as an action, is a work and NO work we do, NOT even the believing that we do, saves us... only HIM, in WHOM we believe, saves. Our believing in Him, ALLOWS Him to save us. The greatest imagery in the Bible of this truth is about opening of a door (believing) and inviting Jesus, IN. He then saves any who do this.

    A water baptism is a representation of His work... have you failed in doing the studying of the Greek words utilized and that have been illuminated too you, to study?

    Brother, a man can be walking through a desert, no water in sight and the moment they believe in Christ, He saves (redeems) them. Then in obedience, once water is available they can DO what should be the first good work of faith. This is why Philip would not "just" baptize the eunuch, the eunuch had to FIRST be redeemed by Christ.

    A water baptism is a work that is to show the world that Jesus has washed them clean of all unrighteousness and HAS saved them... the water baptism doesn't save.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Good grief!

    Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” ... For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” ... For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Romans 10)
    Hooah, repped ya!
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    Anyone. No one is sealed without obedience, ie: water baptism.
    Excuse me but can you please tell me if Cornelius lost being sealed by the Holy Spirit at Acts 10:45? "And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, (why?) because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also." Vs46, "For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then (which means afterwards) Peter answered, vs47, "Surely no one can refust the water for these to be baptised who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" The last sentence is a "rehtorical" question that requires no answer.

    So here is the facts, Corneilus received the gift of the Holy Spirit "BEFORE" he was water baptized. Now here's another question for you? Can you show from the text at what point did Cornelius repented? Look at vs44, "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message." So when did he repent and then receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? You see, the Scriptures do not contradict themselves. The problem most people have is not knowing how to "reconcile" verses that "SEEM OR APPEAR" to contradict themselves.

    IN GOD THE SON,
    maverick

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    If he was just "dipped in water" because all his friends were doing it and didn't have the faith that he was being baptized into Christ, and into His death, then he just got wet the first time and the Blood was not poured over him. His faith, not his friends' faith, is required. He had none, if he just wanted to be part of the "in" crowd who had faith and were baptized accordingly.
    Did you actually pay attention to what I said? How do your remarks above align with my statement below?

    I would think not. I believe that if such a person eventually truly comes to faith, he will receive the indwelling Holy Spirit thereby negating the need to be dipped in water again.

    I said: if such a one EVENTUALLY comes to faith! Therefore, your theory of such a person making a charade of baptism without true belief is irrelevant...

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    They did believe in God. God had been speaking to Cornelius, the patriarch of his family, presumably for a long time. He was a devout man, who trusted and obeyed God. But he didn't know Jesus yet. And upon coming into the NT era, he was now required to obey the NT Gospel. But God didn't tell him about Jesus directly, he sent Peter to preach to him.

    As I said in a much earlier post, he would have been saved under the OT (patriarchal era), but was now in the NT era. Thus he needed only to hear of Jesus from a source approved by God (Peter), to believe the Gospel, and obey it. He had not yet heard it, nor obeyed it when the Spirit fell on him and his house.
    This is a round-about way of going about it and makes a simple matter rather complicated. This will do for now I suppose.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    This is a round-about way of going about it and makes a simple matter rather complicated. This will do for now I suppose.
    I've already pointed out how false this is. If a person cannot even answer a clear statement of Scripture, opposing his position, then his persistence in putting that position out there is invalid.

    Cornelius is speaking here...
    Acts 10.33 So I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us.”
    34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.


    How then can this guy say?: "Thus he needed only to hear of Jesus from a source approved by God (Peter), to believe the Gospel, and obey it. He had not yet heard it."

    If you cannot acknowledge such an obvious refutation of your position, why should anybody trust any of your arguments on this matter?

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I've already pointed out how false this is. If a person cannot even answer a clear statement of Scripture, opposing his position, then his persistence in putting that position out there is invalid.

    Cornelius is speaking here...
    Acts 10.33 So I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us.”
    34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.


    How then can this guy say?: "Thus he needed only to hear of Jesus from a source approved by God (Peter), to believe the Gospel, and obey it. He had not yet heard it."

    If you cannot acknowledge such an obvious refutation of your position, why should anybody trust any of your arguments on this matter?
    True. It's impossible to stop all the crazy doctrines pitched on this Board.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

    How does the context of this verse fit in with your boasting about how you weren't saved until another man submerged you in water? Also, how does the context of this verse allow you to determine another's salvation when they have not yet had another man submerge them in water?

    You are changing the message of the Gospel by saying that faith doesn't save

    Have you ever read the Parable of the Sower? Jesus spells it out, the devil doesn't have to prevent a baptism to prevent salvation, the devil has to prevent belief ONLY, to prevent a person from being saved. He does this by stealing the Gospel (blinding and deafening) the lost.

    Your teachings teach that Jesus doesn't save WHEN HE SAYS He does... go ahead, read the parable.
    I apologize guys. I have been studying, and praying, and I believe that God has revealed to me why we have a disagreement. I have been operating under a false assumption. I have made a huge mistake here. Before I explain, let me ask you this, what was written on the Jesus' Cross?
    Matt 27:37 says, "And they put up over His head the accusation written against Him: THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS." but,
    Mark 15:26 says, "And the inscription of His accusation was written above: THE KING OF THE JEWS." but,
    Luke 23:38 says, " And an inscription also was written over Him in letters of Greek, Latin, and Hebrew: THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS." but,
    John 19:19 says, "Now Pilate wrote a title and put it on the cross. And the writing was: JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS."
    So which was it? Did it say Jesus' name, or not? Did it say he was from Nazareth, or not? Two of the Gospels say it was in three languages, Greek, Hebrew, and Latin; but the other two do not. But John uses a different word for Hebrew, than does Luke, so was it 4 languages? Which is right? Was the Spirit mistaken? Is one Gospel correct and three of the Gospels not? No. You have to take all four accounts, put them together, and analyze them based on context, audience, etc. You have to do this with any topic in Scripture. Before you come to any conclusion about any topic, you must take every passage that has anything to do with that topic and review them. Then you have to use them, and possibly other Scriptures that help explain parts of them, to come to a conclusion. To use any one verse as the bedrock of your "salvation worldview", is to invite great danger. What if you misinterpret some or all of that one verse? What if you choose to define a word to mean one thing, but that does not fit with other Scripture? Do you hold on to your "worldview" and edit Scripture?

    That is what I see you doing here. To take Eph 2:8 and make it the bedrock of your theology is a Grave (Hellishly Grave) mistake. Because what if "works" doesn't mean "there is nothing you can or must do to take hold of your salvation"? What if it is referring to the "works" based program of the Law of Moses?

    Let's take a look at Eph 2:8 and see what it doesn't mean. If we take it to mean that there is nothing we can or must do to be saved, then we don't have to believe. Belief is something we do. It is not something Jesus did for us on the Cross. So that makes it a work. But we can let that slide, can't we? Because there are numerous passages about our belief leading to salvation, and it is purely internal so is it really a work?
    But then we read that we must repent. This leads to a changed life, and is a turning away from our sinful past. But again, it is mostly internal, and the changed life happens after we are saved. So again we can let this one slide because its not really a work, is it?
    Then we read that we must confess Jesus' name publicly. This is getting dangerous. To publicly confess is an action we are definitely taking. We read that it must be public, so it can't just be in our hearts. But still, we are told many times to "call on Jesus' name" and we will be saved. So we can let this one slide too because it is so prominently linked to salvation, right?
    But now we read that baptism is linked to salvation in several passages. But this is clearly a "work". This is something that others will see as us trying to earn, or buy our salvation from God, and we have to draw the line here.

    Now how does that jive with Scripture? Not at all! We cannot make exceptions to what Scripture says, so if it means there is nothing we can or need to do, then THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN OR NEED TO DO! But we all agree that there are things that we must do. Too many passages say that us doing these things: HEAR, BELIEVE, REPENT, and CONFESS Jesus Name in order to be saved. But there are just as many passages that list baptism with salvation as there are some of these other acts. This doesn't make them works by which we would earn salvation.

    Look closely at Eph 2:8-9. Doesn't it sound a lot like Rom 5:8. It isn't saying that we don't have to do anything to receive salvation. It is saying that we didn't deserve Jesus dying for us. He died because of who He is, not who we are. He died because of His love, not our deeds. Eph 2 isn't saying anything about what we have to do to be saved. It is talking about the gift of God to us: the opportunity to be saved. We didn't deserve the opportunity to receive salvation. But God, being Love itself, chose to demonstrate that love by allowing us the opportunity to be saved. But that doesn't stop the necessity of us obey the commands we find in Scripture that tell us what leads to Salvation. We still have to obey ALL Scripture. Everything that Scripture says leads to salvation must be included in our salvation worldview. It is very clear that belief leads to salvation, yes. But it is equally clear that in water baptism is where we come in contact with the Blood of Christ and our sins are washed away.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Did you actually pay attention to what I said? How do your remarks above align with my statement below?

    I would think not. I believe that if such a person eventually truly comes to faith, he will receive the indwelling Holy Spirit thereby negating the need to be dipped in water again.

    I said: if such a one EVENTUALLY comes to faith! Therefore, your theory of such a person making a charade of baptism without true belief is irrelevant...
    If he didn't have faith in when "dipped" the first time, he just got wet. He wasn't washed in the Blood. So when he does come to faith, he needs to obey the Gospel at that time.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Brents View Post
    I apologize guys. I have been studying, and praying, and I believe that God has revealed to me why we have a disagreement. I have been operating under a false assumption. I have made a huge mistake here. Before I explain, let me ask you this, what was written on the Jesus' Cross?
    Matt 27:37 says, "And they put up over His head the accusation written against Him: THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS." but,
    Mark 15:26 says, "And the inscription of His accusation was written above: THE KING OF THE JEWS." but,
    Luke 23:38 says, " And an inscription also was written over Him in letters of Greek, Latin, and Hebrew: THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS." but,
    John 19:19 says, "Now Pilate wrote a title and put it on the cross. And the writing was: JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS."
    So which was it? Did it say Jesus' name, or not? Did it say he was from Nazareth, or not? Two of the Gospels say it was in three languages, Greek, Hebrew, and Latin; but the other two do not. But John uses a different word for Hebrew, than does Luke, so was it 4 languages? Which is right? Was the Spirit mistaken? Is one Gospel correct and three of the Gospels not? No. You have to take all four accounts, put them together, and analyze them based on context, audience, etc. You have to do this with any topic in Scripture. Before you come to any conclusion about any topic, you must take every passage that has anything to do with that topic and review them. Then you have to use them, and possibly other Scriptures that help explain parts of them, to come to a conclusion. To use any one verse as the bedrock of your "salvation worldview", is to invite great danger. What if you misinterpret some or all of that one verse? What if you choose to define a word to mean one thing, but that does not fit with other Scripture? Do you hold on to your "worldview" and edit Scripture?

    That is what I see you doing here. To take Eph 2:8 and make it the bedrock of your theology is a Grave (Hellishly Grave) mistake. Because what if "works" doesn't mean "there is nothing you can or must do to take hold of your salvation"? What if it is referring to the "works" based program of the Law of Moses?

    Let's take a look at Eph 2:8 and see what it doesn't mean. If we take it to mean that there is nothing we can or must do to be saved, then we don't have to believe. Belief is something we do. It is not something Jesus did for us on the Cross. So that makes it a work. But we can let that slide, can't we? Because there are numerous passages about our belief leading to salvation, and it is purely internal so is it really a work?
    But then we read that we must repent. This leads to a changed life, and is a turning away from our sinful past. But again, it is mostly internal, and the changed life happens after we are saved. So again we can let this one slide because its not really a work, is it?
    Then we read that we must confess Jesus' name publicly. This is getting dangerous. To publicly confess is an action we are definitely taking. We read that it must be public, so it can't just be in our hearts. But still, we are told many times to "call on Jesus' name" and we will be saved. So we can let this one slide too because it is so prominently linked to salvation, right?
    But now we read that baptism is linked to salvation in several passages. But this is clearly a "work". This is something that others will see as us trying to earn, or buy our salvation from God, and we have to draw the line here.

    Now how does that jive with Scripture? Not at all! We cannot make exceptions to what Scripture says, so if it means there is nothing we can or need to do, then THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN OR NEED TO DO! But we all agree that there are things that we must do. Too many passages say that us doing these things: HEAR, BELIEVE, REPENT, and CONFESS Jesus Name in order to be saved. But there are just as many passages that list baptism with salvation as there are some of these other acts. This doesn't make them works by which we would earn salvation.

    Look closely at Eph 2:8-9. Doesn't it sound a lot like Rom 5:8. It isn't saying that we don't have to do anything to receive salvation. It is saying that we didn't deserve Jesus dying for us. He died because of who He is, not who we are. He died because of His love, not our deeds. Eph 2 isn't saying anything about what we have to do to be saved. It is talking about the gift of God to us: the opportunity to be saved. We didn't deserve the opportunity to receive salvation. But God, being Love itself, chose to demonstrate that love by allowing us the opportunity to be saved. But that doesn't stop the necessity of us obey the commands we find in Scripture that tell us what leads to Salvation. We still have to obey ALL Scripture. Everything that Scripture says leads to salvation must be included in our salvation worldview. It is very clear that belief leads to salvation, yes. But it is equally clear that in water baptism is where we come in contact with the Blood of Christ and our sins are washed away.
    I appreciate you trying to apply your beliefs about Salvation to these Scriptures on Grace. I think you have some of it right. In other parts, I think you revert to a Works-based Savlation. The obligation to be Water Baptized or to engage in Communion is more a path providing for a confession of Salvation than a means of Salvation itself. It's like the famous "altar call." To call people forward to get Saved is not a commandment to come forward. It is an offer to engage in an activity in which confession is made. And it is the confession that brings Salvation.

    You're right that it's the specific *work of Redemption* that we cannot participate in to get Saved. Only Christ could do that. That being said, we don't suspend our free will, our ability to confess, do good, or to respond to the Gospel of our Salvation. We can do all these things, whether you want to call them "works" or not, and still not qualify for Salvation. What qualifies us for Salvation is the exclusive domain of Christ. Our "work" in receiving him is not a "work of Redemption," but rather a human response to the offer of Salvation.

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