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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #46
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    I'll be glad to.

    Brother Walls has claimed that not only is baptism intrinsic to salvation he has claimed that not all who are born again will enter the kingdom and be with God. Basically his own versions of baptismal regeneration and a works based salvation. That depending on our works some will be saved and like Christ and some will be so unlike Christ that while they will have everlasting life they will still be judged unworthy.
    In order to substantiate his claims he's taken scriptures completely out of context and sprinkled in a few of his own ideas.

    The disagreement wasn't at all about whether Scripture says we will shine like stars after being raised. Scripture plainly states that of course.
    No. This was termed poppycock and balderdash.

    Why can this accusation stand when you refuse to show the evidence. Let's start with this. In which posting and paragraph did I write that ...

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    "... not all who are born again will enter the kingdom and be with God."
    Even the unrighteous Pharisees gave Jesus a hearing. Please accord me a chance to answer this accusation. Or is there no such writing of mine and it is a false accusation?

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    40 "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
    41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."

    ... AND THERE ARE DIFFERING GLORIES PREDICTED AMONG THE STARS! I tell you, not all Christians will be "LIKE Christ" in resurrection! There will be DIFFERING GLORIES.
    How do you know which of ten trillion trillion glories gets you into the kingdom?
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

  3. #48
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Who's debating the Great Commission? What is "debatable" is whether Jesus advocated Baptism as an everlasting, or continuing, practice as an essential part of salvation rituals. Two of Protestantism's salvation rituals, or sacraments, are Communion and Baptism--not in that order. I don't consider any of the Sacraments an essential part of Salvation. They were certainly practiced in Jesus' generation, at the founding of the Jewish Church, and in the initial generation in which the apostles founded the Gentile Church. But it is *debatable* whether Jesus meant Baptism to continue on as a regular ritual in the history of the Church. It is debatable *to me.*
    It's debatable ? I don't see it as such. There is nowhere in Mathew 28 that suggests it should stop with the apostles. In fact it says teaching others ALL of the things I have taught you.. passing it forward - forever.

    What changed about Baptism is that the instructions about Baptism applied to the 1st Generation, and not necessarily thereafter. It may have set a precedent, or not. It certainly has been practiced throughout Church History.
    It has set a precedent for those who believe the command. And if it weren't for these people that God has given this commission to , and then received with intent to follow it - the church wouldn't exist. People who neglect the churches responsibility to fulfill the Great Commission have nothing to do with the advancement, and truthfully, the continuance of the church.

    The day is here and now when those churches who no longer see the need to reach their neighbor and the world will cease to exist. I see churches in my county every year closing their doors because of this very reason. Our association is attempting "church revitalization" gimmicks to no avail, and honestly until these folks understand what the great commission is, then that congregation needs to cease to exist in the hopes that they will have to unite with a body who does understand it. But from what I've seen , those who refuse to go and tell - then disciple and baptize, would rather not gather at all than be a part of something that they have refused to participate in for 50 years. And they will be the first to complain about the state of their neighborhood and nation.

    And brother, I'm not insinuating you are one of these... I just am passionate about this topic, and I assure you, I know what I'm talking about here.

  4. #49
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I notice that you would not counter my arguments. You completely ignored Hebrews 11:12. Neither have you produced any of your own. Let me ask you,
    • did the Holy Spirit indicate that Abraham would have TWO seeds?
    • is one of these seeds earthly and one heavenly? - "sand" and "stars"
    • are the unbelievers EVER called stars?
    • if the believers are stars, does not the Holy Spirit say that the glory on some stars DIFFER, whereas we have to be LIKE Christ in resurrection - TWO diametrically opposing words.
    • are all those examples of BELIEVERS not entering the Kingdom to be discarded?

    And lastly, if my argument is "poppycock and balderdash", why have you not, as one holding the truth, honored me by telling it? Is this not required of a Christian? I hereby challenge you to do your duty and give me the correct understanding of why a Christian who fornicates, is NOT told that he is no longer, or never was a Christian, but is told that he/she will not enter the Kingdom of God? (Gal.5:21; Eph.5:5).
    Walls , if you don't mean what Brian W is saying, then exactly what ARE you saying. Because this seems to be exactly what Brain is saying you said. Condense what you mean and there would be far less confusion.

  5. #50
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    How do you know which of ten trillion trillion glories gets you into the kingdom?
    Did I claim to know? Here is my exact quote from posting #18, second last paragraph.

    Walls; Posting #18, second last paragraph:

    As the glories of the individual Christian's bodies start to vary from Christ's, there will come a point where the body is NOT FIT for the Kingdom. In The parables of the Kingdom, SOME SERVANTS make it into the joy of the Lord when He comes in His Kingdom, and SOME SERVANTS don't. In one case it was not using one's Talent (Matt.25). In another case it was not using one's Pound (Lk.19). In another case it was disobedience (Matt.7). In another case it was lack of extra oil, not in the Lamp, but in the vessel. And here in Romans 6:I propose that without Baptism you CANNOT be raised from the dead LIKE Christ - MAKING YOUR BODY UNFIT FOR THE KINGDOM!
    The word "glory" in the Bible means, "made apparent" (Strong & Vine). Just after resurrection the Church faces the Bema (Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10). At this judgement seat we are shown, by the parables on the kingdom, that SOME of the lord's people will be found "worthy" of the Kingdom and SOME will be found unworthy. That is, it will be MADE APPARENT at the Bema whether a man or woman is fit for the Millennial Kingdom. If you agree with this, I am perplexed at your question. If you disagree with this, what then is your understanding of a Judgement Seat, especially when you know how fallible you yourself are, never mind the dozens of Christians you know who commit all manner of sins. Both Galatians 5:21 and Ephesians 5:5 are addressed to Christians. It is clear that many Christians will be "MADE APPARENT" for what they did and are.

    But I have a general question for you. Why is it that when Christians don't understand something, they become acrimonious? Do you think that acrimonious Christians will be found worthy of the Kingdom of God? After all, our Lord Jesus said that only those that do the will of the Father in heaven will enter the Kingdom (Matt.7:21), and the Father's will is; "Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another" (Romans 12:10). Was your question above in the Christian spirit?

    Nevertheless - Go well sister - and, you don't have to answer my question.

  6. #51
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Walls , if you don't mean what Brian W is saying, then exactly what ARE you saying. Because this seems to be exactly what Brain is saying you said. Condense what you mean and there would be far less confusion.
    OK. I appreciate your fairness. Which statement, in which posting, do you have a problem with? I can, and will defend it. Then we'll go to the next one you have a problem with. Just one thing, to save pages, if I quoted a verse, all we need to do is see if the verse says what I said it says. How's that brother?

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK. I appreciate your fairness. Which statement, in which posting, do you have a problem with? I can, and will defend it. Then we'll go to the next one you have a problem with. Just one thing, to save pages, if I quoted a verse, all we need to do is see if the verse says what I said it says. How's that brother?
    Fair enough. The quoted comments in my previous post suggest that there are those who are believers who are not entering the kingdom. Is that what you propose ? If so, then elaborate simply with scripture.

  8. #53
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Fair enough. The quoted comments in my previous post suggest that there are those who are believers who are not entering the kingdom. Is that what you propose ? If so, then elaborate simply with scripture.
    Good. A fair question. The three following passages of scripture are addressed to Christians (1st Cor.1:2; Gal.1:2; Eph.1:1)

    1st Corinthians 6:9-10 is in context of one Christian taking another before heathen court.
    9 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind
    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."


    That is, they are Christians, Believers, Brothers and those who call upon the name of Jesus. The shall not enter the Kingdom when Christ comes because of their WORKS

    Galatians 5:21. The context is "biting and devouring one another and not walking according to the Spirit (5:15-16)
    "Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

    That is, they are Christians but have let the flesh, which wars with the Spirit, get the better of them. Those who cannot overcome the flesh by the Spirit will not enter the Kingdom when Christ sets it up on earth.

    Ephesians 5:5. The context is "children walking in love as followers of God". "Children" means they have the same Father.
    "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

    That is, these Christians who are now children of God and required to walk in a Godly fashion, will be excluded from the Kingdom when Christ sets it up on earth.

    Prevailing Christian theology is that the "Kingdom of Heaven" is IN Heaven. Don't be caught by that. It is God's Kingdom ON EARTH - the one Daniel Chapter 2 predicts, the one our Lord Jesus predicted and taught extensively on and the one our Lord Jesus prayed for in Matthew 6:9-10;

    9 "... Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
    10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."


    1. "THY kingdom" is "the Kingdom of God"
    2. "THY WILL" is heavenly RULE, which is exercised NOW in heaven but not yet on earth.

    You will notice that I have been precise and true to ONLY what has been said in these scriptures, without adding or subtracting, and have been true to their context. Is this satisfactory?
    Last edited by Walls; Aug 28th 2019 at 03:43 PM.

  9. #54
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Good. A fair question. The three following passages of scripture are addressed to Christians (1st Cor.1:2; Gal.1:2; Eph.1:1)

    1st Corinthians 6:9-10 is in context of one Christian taking another before heathen court.
    9 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind
    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."


    That is, they are Christians, Believers, Brothers and those who call upon the name of Jesus. The shall not enter the Kingdom when Christ comes because of their WORKS

    Galatians 5:21. The context is "biting and devouring one another and not walking according to the Spirit (5:15-16)
    "Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

    That is, they are Christians but have let the flesh, which wars with the Spirit, get the better of them. Those who cannot overcome the flesh by the Spirit will not enter the Kingdom when Christ sets it up on earth.

    Ephesians 5:5. The context is "children walking in love as followers of God". "Children" means they have the same Father.
    "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

    That is, these Christians who are now children of God and required to walk in a Godly fashion, will be excluded from the Kingdom when Christ sets it up on earth.

    Prevailing Christian theology is that the "Kingdom of Heaven" is IN Heaven. Don't be caught by that. It is God's Kingdom ON EARTH - the one Daniel Chapter 2 predicts, the one our Lord Jesus predicted and taught extensively on and the one our Lord Jesus prayed for in Matthew 6:9-10;

    9 "... Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
    10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."


    "THY kingdom" is "the Kingdom of God"
    "THY WILL" is heavenly RULE, which is exercised NOW in heaven but not yet on earth.

    You will notice that I have been precise and true to ONLY what has been said in these scriptures, without adding or subtracting, and have been true to their context. Is this satisfactory?
    Walls, before I continue , I need to know if you believe those who these verses are referring to are genuine believers who are going to be condemned. Is that what you're saying ?

  10. #55
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Walls, before I continue , I need to know if you believe those who these verses are referring to are genuine believers who are going to be condemned. Is that what you're saying ?
    May I adjust your language to reflect scripture? I humbly ask this because all the accusations against me are because my opponents changed words. - my words, and scripture's words. They are not "condemned". They "do not inherit the Kingdom". Condemned is not incorrect, but it is not what these verses said. Let us, like the bible, use a picture.

    Israel are saved by the Lamb of Egypt. Israel are saved by the Red Sea. Israel are saved by the smitten rock and the manna. Israel are saved in battles. But of 600,000 men over 20, who left Egypt, only TWO made it into the Good Land. At no time did any Israelite STOP BEING an Israelite who was saved so many times. And according to Ezekiel 37 and Daniel 12:2, those in the dust of Sinai will be resurrected and restored to the Good Land. They exercised all the privileges of being an Israelite, and will enjoy all the privileges of Israel, but FAILED TO INHERIT the Land in their lifetime.

    We are like Israel (1st Cor.10:1-11). We are believers. We call on Jesus' name. We have eternal life. We are sons of God by rebirth. We will not go to the Lake of Fire. But when our Lord Jesus sets up God's Kingdom on EARTH, His co-kings have to have shown that they are not habitual sinners. This would bring His Kingdom into disrepute like so many great pastors have disgraced the Church. Salvation is by FAITH. Eternal Life is by Faith. Being a son of God is by FAITH. Being a co-king with Christ in the coming Kingdom is GAINED by (i) denial of the self, (ii) walking with Jesus and knowing Him, (iii) doing the Father's will - not our own.

    Do you see the difference in all these things that scripture shows? FAITH produces lasting changes like rebirth and eternal life. But to be a co-king with Christ you have to be TRAINED. The Kingdom is set before the Christian as a REWARD.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Did I claim to know? Here is my exact quote from posting #18, second last paragraph.
    I did read your post that's why I asked. You're saying that glory is on a gradient scale and there's a point where you don't have enough glory to enter the kingdom, despite believing in Christ for salvation. Do you know "how much glory" we need then, or based the stars reference which of "innumerable" glories will get you into the kingdom? Or can we never be certain which side Jesus will put us on at judgment, due to our type of glory?

    But I have a general question for you. Why is it that when Christians don't understand something, they become acrimonious?
    Sometimes pride gets in the way of the pursuit of truth. Hasn't this happened to us all? Are we more interested in proving our point/opinion or reaching a better understanding of Scripture together?

    and the Father's will is; "Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another" (Romans 12:10) Was your question above in the Christian spirit?
    It was intended to be, but if it came across rude then I apologize.

    I'm trying to illustrate the absurdity of your claim and why you're applying 1 Corinthians 15 incorrectly. If you believe there are different glories among believers and our inheritance, and you're basing this on Paul's words about the variance among the stars, then it follows that the amount of glories there are is like the number of stars - "trillions upon trillions".

    But if you care to answer my other questions above, it should be more clear to me what you actually believe on the topic. Mainly, do you have certainty of your future glory, and what would you base your certainty/doubt on?
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The ritual of Baptism is not a necessary ingredient in Salvation. It is just the recommended ritual Jesus advocated in his time, to testify to the world a message he wanted the world to hear.
    Are you really seeing the commandment of Jesus as a recommendation?
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    It's debatable ? I don't see it as such. There is nowhere in Mathew 28 that suggests it should stop with the apostles. In fact it says teaching others ALL of the things I have taught you.. passing it forward - forever.
    It could be. What I read is that Jesus is speaking primarily to his 11 disciples, giving them an apostolic mission with a specific goal to reach their own generation--not just in Israel but also in all nations. In his Olivet Discourse Jesus had already told them that his Gospel had to be preached in all the world. At that time, all the world was the Roman Empire, and the focus of the message was on Israel exclusively.

    But we can look back now and recognize that Jesus was preparing his Disciples for an apostolic mission that would begin in Israel, and eventually expand to the Gentiles. So what was their specific mission and what was the general mission of the historic church? I don't know exactly, and so I'm asking the question.

    What I'm specifically questioning is not the Great Commission as a goal to prepare the whole world for the 2nd Coming, but rather, how much was to be relegated to the 1st century and how much to the rest of Christian history? The preaching of the Gospel obviously is something God intended to continue until the end of the age. But Baptism appears to be an add on to the central message, which was the Gospel of the Kingdom.

    The reason I ask this question is for 2 reasons. One, Baptism is sometimes promoted as part of the Gospel message, which it is not. I think the notion of Baptismal Regeneration is very confusing in our day, and creates confusion over what the Gospel exactly is. Is Baptism a necessary part of our Salvation? No.

    The 2nd reason I ask this question is because we are often taught that what Jesus specifically said to his 12 Disciples are equally and exactly applicable to today's Christian ministers. This is wrong. Similar things are done, but certainly not the exact same things. Do you have only one suitcase, and go to only one house in a city? No.

    We read in Matt 10 of the things Jesus said his 12 Disciples would experience. These things are not exactly applicable to today's ministers, although in principle they can still apply. Perhaps today Christ's ministers preach the Gospel, and get similar persecution? Or perhaps, a new country opens wide its doors to the Gospel's acceptance?

    Do you have the same degree of miracles taking place today as in the Apostles' day? You have some, but probably not as many miracles as done in Jesus' time. The "greater work we shall do" was not the performing of greater miracles, but rather, the greater outreach into the world. Jesus' earthly ministry was confined, largely, to Israel.

    The church today has a much greater outreach, particular with modern technology available to us. Certainly, miracles are still taking place. I just think the quality of Jesus' life and miracles were far superior to ours! And that likely translated into special results for his Apostles, unique to their own time.

    I would say the same thing about the Great Commission. It can apply in principle to the Mission of the Church. But in reality, some things, like Baptism, may be relegated to the tradition of their own time. There are other ways, historically, that people may make a public profession of faith, depending on the culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum
    It has set a precedent for those who believe the command. And if it weren't for these people that God has given this commission to , and then received with intent to follow it - the church wouldn't exist. People who neglect the churches responsibility to fulfill the Great Commission have nothing to do with the advancement, and truthfully, the continuance of the church.

    The day is here and now when those churches who no longer see the need to reach their neighbor and the world will cease to exist. I see churches in my county every year closing their doors because of this very reason. Our association is attempting "church revitalization" gimmicks to no avail, and honestly until these folks understand what the great commission is, then that congregation needs to cease to exist in the hopes that they will have to unite with a body who does understand it. But from what I've seen , those who refuse to go and tell - then disciple and baptize, would rather not gather at all than be a part of something that they have refused to participate in for 50 years. And they will be the first to complain about the state of their neighborhood and nation.

    And brother, I'm not insinuating you are one of these... I just am passionate about this topic, and I assure you, I know what I'm talking about here.
    I assure you, I know what you're talking about too, and I concur. I hasten to say my subject has nothing to do with this, but only with Baptism as a central requirement in the Gospel Commission. There are certain things that remain the same after the generation of the Apostles, and some things that are transitory. I'm exploring these things, and not at all trying to discourage the preaching of the Gospel. The Gospel will continue to be preached, both by angels and men, until the end of the age. Until the Kingdom of Christ comes, men must be warned of the judgment that is to accompany that event.

    Please note that in the Olivet Discourse Jesus informed his 12 Disciples, with respect to his Coming, that their focus was to be on their own generation. "Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all this takes place."

    Even their preaching of the Gospel at that particular time was focused first on Israel, and only after that, on the Gentile world. They were to warn Israel, both in the land and in the Diaspora, that judgment was coming by the Romans. This would be specifically a judgment upon Israel. But it would also indicate to the world that judgment is coming to all the world for the same kind of rebellion against Christ's Kingdom as the Jews were committing.

    When Jesus told his 12 Disciples that the Gospel would be preached in all the world, before the "end comes," he may have been talking about the "end" of Israel as a nation. They were to warn all Israel, in the Diaspora, that Jerusalem was about to be destroyed.

    But thereafter the Gospel was to apply to the Gentiles as well, because they had to know of the judgment of God coming upon the whole world on behalf of Christ's Kingdom. And so, the Gospel was commissioned 1st to the Apostles, and afterwards, to others as well, who would reach out to the Gentile world, as Paul did.

    You see, the pattern here is that Jesus focused, in his earthly ministry, upon the Jewish nation, and upon his own generation. He didn't want his ministers getting sidetracked with eschatological speculations. On the other hand, Jesus was indeed setting a precedent for the future preaching of the Gospel to the Gentiles.

    I'm exploring the differences between the Gospel message given in the time of the Law, and how that Gospel evolved in the time when Gentiles could hear the Gospel as well. I don't think Baptism is an essential part of today's Gospel. On the other hand, I find it a perfectly acceptable way of doing, by precedent, what Jesus called upon for novices to do in his own time.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Are you really seeing the commandment of Jesus as a recommendation?
    No, I see the teaching of Jesus to his Apostles in Israel as setting the stage for a future expansion of his Gospel of the Kingdom. Some elements of his preaching to his Apostles were specific, such as Baptism. Other things, such as the Great Commission, were to be carried on into future generations, including in the time of Gentile expansion. Baptism was *not* part of the Gospel, as indicated by Paul. He indicated he was not called to Baptize, but to preach the Gospel.

    1 Cor 1.17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    May I adjust your language to reflect scripture? I humbly ask this because all the accusations against me are because my opponents changed words. - my words, and scripture's words. They are not "condemned". They "do not inherit the Kingdom". Condemned is not incorrect, but it is not what these verses said. Let us, like the bible, use a picture.
    I don't necessarily see what's being said to you as accusatory but more like a logical conclusion from the words you choose to use. For instance , look at the highlighted above...Which is it ? Condemned , or not ? A genuine believer cannot be condemned Walls. That position would be very contradictory, and this is why you have the conclusions people are getting to.

    Israel are saved by the Lamb of Egypt. Israel are saved by the Red Sea. Israel are saved by the smitten rock and the manna. Israel are saved in battles. But of 600,000 men over 20, who left Egypt, only TWO made it into the Good Land. At no time did any Israelite STOP BEING an Israelite who was saved so many times. And according to Ezekiel 37 and Daniel 12:2, those in the dust of Sinai will be resurrected and restored to the Good Land. They exercised all the privileges of being an Israelite, and will enjoy all the privileges of Israel, but FAILED TO INHERIT the Land in their lifetime.
    The ones who exercised disbelief in the wilderness wandered for 40 years until they all died out then the remnant was allowed to go in. I strongly do not recommend that you use these verses to back your stance that a believer can be condemned.

    We are like Israel (1st Cor.10:1-11). We are believers. We call on Jesus' name. We have eternal life. We are sons of God by rebirth. We will not go to the Lake of Fire. But when our Lord Jesus sets up God's Kingdom on EARTH, His co-kings have to have shown that they are not habitual sinners. This would bring His Kingdom into disrepute like so many great pastors have disgraced the Church. Salvation is by FAITH. Eternal Life is by Faith. Being a son of God is by FAITH. Being a co-king with Christ in the coming Kingdom is GAINED by (i) denial of the self, (ii) walking with Jesus and knowing Him, (iii) doing the Father's will - not our own.
    You are stretching here.

    Do you see the difference in all these things that scripture shows? FAITH produces lasting changes like rebirth and eternal life. But to be a co-king with Christ you have to be TRAINED. The Kingdom is set before the Christian as a REWARD.
    Can someone who is a genuine believer be condemned , or not ? You can clarify every bit of this with a yes or a no.

    May I adjust your language to reflect scripture? I humbly ask this because all the accusations against me are because my opponents changed words. - my words, and scripture's words. They are not "condemned". They "do not inherit the Kingdom". Condemned is not incorrect, but it is not what these verses said. Let us, like the bible, use a picture.
    I don't necessarily see what's being said to you as accusatory but more like a logical conclusion from the words you choose to use. For instance , look at the highlighted above...Which is it ? Condemned , or not ? A genuine believer cannot be condemned Walls. That position would be very contradictory, and this is why you have the conclusions people are getting to.

    Israel are saved by the Lamb of Egypt. Israel are saved by the Red Sea. Israel are saved by the smitten rock and the manna. Israel are saved in battles. But of 600,000 men over 20, who left Egypt, only TWO made it into the Good Land. At no time did any Israelite STOP BEING an Israelite who was saved so many times. And according to Ezekiel 37 and Daniel 12:2, those in the dust of Sinai will be resurrected and restored to the Good Land. They exercised all the privileges of being an Israelite, and will enjoy all the privileges of Israel, but FAILED TO INHERIT the Land in their lifetime.
    The ones who exercised disbelief in the wilderness wandered for 40 years until they all died out then the remnant was allowed to go in. I strongly do not recommend that you use these verses to back your stance that a believer can be condemned.

    We are like Israel (1st Cor.10:1-11). We are believers. We call on Jesus' name. We have eternal life. We are sons of God by rebirth. We will not go to the Lake of Fire. But when our Lord Jesus sets up God's Kingdom on EARTH, His co-kings have to have shown that they are not habitual sinners. This would bring His Kingdom into disrepute like so many great pastors have disgraced the Church. Salvation is by FAITH. Eternal Life is by Faith. Being a son of God is by FAITH. Being a co-king with Christ in the coming Kingdom is GAINED by (i) denial of the self, (ii) walking with Jesus and knowing Him, (iii) doing the Father's will - not our own.
    You are stretching here.

    Do you see the difference in all these things that scripture shows? FAITH produces lasting changes like rebirth and eternal life. But to be a co-king with Christ you have to be TRAINED. The Kingdom is set before the Christian as a REWARD.
    Can someone who is a genuine believer be condemned , or not ? You can clarify every bit of this with a yes or a no.

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