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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #61
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    It could be. What I read is that Jesus is speaking primarily to his 11 disciples, giving them an apostolic mission with a specific goal to reach their own generation--not just in Israel but also in all nations. In his Olivet Discourse Jesus had already told them that his Gospel had to be preached in all the world. At that time, all the world was the Roman Empire, and the focus of the message was on Israel exclusively.

    But we can look back now and recognize that Jesus was preparing his Disciples for an apostolic mission that would begin in Israel, and eventually expand to the Gentiles. So what was their specific mission and what was the general mission of the historic church? I don't know exactly, and so I'm asking the question.

    What I'm specifically questioning is not the Great Commission as a goal to prepare the whole world for the 2nd Coming, but rather, how much was to be relegated to the 1st century and how much to the rest of Christian history? The preaching of the Gospel obviously is something God intended to continue until the end of the age. But Baptism appears to be an add on to the central message, which was the Gospel of the Kingdom.

    The reason I ask this question is for 2 reasons. One, Baptism is sometimes promoted as part of the Gospel message, which it is not. I think the notion of Baptismal Regeneration is very confusing in our day, and creates confusion over what the Gospel exactly is. Is Baptism a necessary part of our Salvation? No.

    The 2nd reason I ask this question is because we are often taught that what Jesus specifically said to his 12 Disciples are equally and exactly applicable to today's Christian ministers. This is wrong. Similar things are done, but certainly not the exact same things. Do you have only one suitcase, and go to only one house in a city? No.

    We read in Matt 10 of the things Jesus said his 12 Disciples would experience. These things are not exactly applicable to today's ministers, although in principle they can still apply. Perhaps today Christ's ministers preach the Gospel, and get similar persecution? Or perhaps, a new country opens wide its doors to the Gospel's acceptance?

    Do you have the same degree of miracles taking place today as in the Apostles' day? You have some, but probably not as many miracles as done in Jesus' time. The "greater work we shall do" was not the performing of greater miracles, but rather, the greater outreach into the world. Jesus' earthly ministry was confined, largely, to Israel.

    The church today has a much greater outreach, particular with modern technology available to us. Certainly, miracles are still taking place. I just think the quality of Jesus' life and miracles were far superior to ours! And that likely translated into special results for his Apostles, unique to their own time.

    I would say the same thing about the Great Commission. It can apply in principle to the Mission of the Church. But in reality, some things, like Baptism, may be relegated to the tradition of their own time. There are other ways, historically, that people may make a public profession of faith, depending on the culture.



    I assure you, I know what you're talking about too, and I concur. I hasten to say my subject has nothing to do with this, but only with Baptism as a central requirement in the Gospel Commission. There are certain things that remain the same after the generation of the Apostles, and some things that are transitory. I'm exploring these things, and not at all trying to discourage the preaching of the Gospel. The Gospel will continue to be preached, both by angels and men, until the end of the age. Until the Kingdom of Christ comes, men must be warned of the judgment that is to accompany that event.

    Please note that in the Olivet Discourse Jesus informed his 12 Disciples, with respect to his Coming, that their focus was to be on their own generation. "Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all this takes place."

    Even their preaching of the Gospel at that particular time was focused first on Israel, and only after that, on the Gentile world. They were to warn Israel, both in the land and in the Diaspora, that judgment was coming by the Romans. This would be specifically a judgment upon Israel. But it would also indicate to the world that judgment is coming to all the world for the same kind of rebellion against Christ's Kingdom as the Jews were committing.

    When Jesus told his 12 Disciples that the Gospel would be preached in all the world, before the "end comes," he may have been talking about the "end" of Israel as a nation. They were to warn all Israel, in the Diaspora, that Jerusalem was about to be destroyed.

    But thereafter the Gospel was to apply to the Gentiles as well, because they had to know of the judgment of God coming upon the whole world on behalf of Christ's Kingdom. And so, the Gospel was commissioned 1st to the Apostles, and afterwards, to others as well, who would reach out to the Gentile world, as Paul did.

    You see, the pattern here is that Jesus focused, in his earthly ministry, upon the Jewish nation, and upon his own generation. He didn't want his ministers getting sidetracked with eschatological speculations. On the other hand, Jesus was indeed setting a precedent for the future preaching of the Gospel to the Gentiles.

    I'm exploring the differences between the Gospel message given in the time of the Law, and how that Gospel evolved in the time when Gentiles could hear the Gospel as well. I don't think Baptism is an essential part of today's Gospel. On the other hand, I find it a perfectly acceptable way of doing, by precedent, what Jesus called upon for novices to do in his own time.
    Randy, there is only one Gospel message.

    One thing I left out in my rant earlier was this.... false theology is one of the most hindering things to the great commission. Studying about it without practicing it is sin.

  2. #62
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    No. This was termed poppycock and balderdash.

    Why can this accusation stand when you refuse to show the evidence. Let's start with this. In which posting and paragraph did I write that ...



    Even the unrighteous Pharisees gave Jesus a hearing. Please accord me a chance to answer this accusation. Or is there no such writing of mine and it is a false accusation?
    OK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    ... AND THERE ARE DIFFERING GLORIES PREDICTED AMONG THE STARS! I tell you, not all Christians will be "LIKE Christ" in resurrection! There will be DIFFERING GLORIES. And what makes this crucial??? Christ's Body is the prototype for entering the Kingdom. As the glories of the individual Christian's bodies start to vary from Christ's, there will come a point where the body is NOT FIT for the Kingdom. In The parables of the Kingdom, SOME SERVANTS make it into the joy of the Lord when He comes in His Kingdom, and SOME SERVANTS don't. In one case it was not using one's Talent (Matt.25). In another case it was not using one's Pound (Lk.19). In another case it was disobedience (Matt.7). In another case it was lack of extra oil, not in the Lamp, but in the vessel. And here in Romans 6 I propose that without Baptism you CANNOT be raised from the dead LIKE Christ - MAKING YOUR BODY UNFIT FOR THE KINGDOM!

    You claimed in post #35 that the stars reference how Christians will be judged and that this shows we will have different glories. That if we aren't baptized and do other works we will not enter the kingdom.
    That's not what the scriptures say at all it's just a cherry picked example that ignores the rest of the context like the same comparisons of seeds and plants, animals and fish flesh etc etc.

    Paul was saying - in context -that our resurrected bodies will be different from our flesh bodies. As I already stated in reply to you. Read the thread again please.



    Concerning baptism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I've followed the answers to this thread, and again I am amazed. On the one hand we have the contingent that settles for a meaningless Christian ritual and on the far side, those who (rightly) say that we have to do it because it is ordered by the Lord. In the previous thread on Baptism, I outlined Baptism as it pertains to three of the four aspects of salvation. Then I outlined the principle of any man chosen by God to walk through and bury his past in water. Then I outlined the reasons by Colossians 2 showed Baptism to be the new circumcision.
    This is the doctrine of Baptismal Regeneration - Look it up - and you added on the claim that water baptism is the new circumcision. .

    This is what I said was balderdash and poppycock. Again, read the thread again. I have responded to your posts and I posted scriptures in context that should have opened up your eyes if you bothered to read them all through instead of only looking at certain lines and words.

    I may not have went point by point showing what you wrote and my exact reply but I shouldn't have to. I also shouldn't have to explain what doctrine you're teaching. You should know before you try and teach it or put it out there.
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    I've never understood those who promote various levels of salvation. It just doesn't make sense. You are either born , or you aren't.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    I did read your post that's why I asked. You're saying that glory is on a gradient scale and there's a point where you don't have enough glory to enter the kingdom, despite believing in Christ for salvation. Do you know "how much glory" we need then, or based the stars reference which of "innumerable" glories will get you into the kingdom? Or can we never be certain which side Jesus will put us on at judgment, due to our type of glory?



    Sometimes pride gets in the way of the pursuit of truth. Hasn't this happened to us all? Are we more interested in proving our point/opinion or reaching a better understanding of Scripture together?



    It was intended to be, but if it came across rude then I apologize.

    I'm trying to illustrate the absurdity of your claim and why you're applying 1 Corinthians 15 incorrectly. If you believe there are different glories among believers and our inheritance, and you're basing this on Paul's words about the variance among the stars, then it follows that the amount of glories there are is like the number of stars - "trillions upon trillions".

    But if you care to answer my other questions above, it should be more clear to me what you actually believe on the topic. Mainly, do you have certainty of your future glory, and what would you base your certainty/doubt on?
    This was my claim in the context of the build up of my argument of posting #18.

    Walls, posting #18, second last paragraph;
    The resurrection of the Church is likened to stars in 1st Corinthians 15:40-41 ...

    40 "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
    41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."

    ... AND THERE ARE DIFFERING GLORIES PREDICTED AMONG THE STARS! I tell you, not all Christians will be "LIKE Christ" in resurrection! There will be DIFFERING GLORIES. And what makes this crucial??? Christ's Body is the prototype for entering the Kingdom. As the glories of the individual Christian's bodies start to vary from Christ's, there will come a point where the body is NOT FIT for the Kingdom. In The parables of the Kingdom, SOME SERVANTS make it into the joy of the Lord when He comes in His Kingdom, and SOME SERVANTS don't. In one case it was not using one's Talent (Matt.25). In another case it was not using one's Pound (Lk.19). In another case it was disobedience (Matt.7). In another case it was lack of extra oil, not in the Lamp, but in the vessel. And here in Romans 6:I propose that without Baptism you CANNOT be raised from the dead LIKE Christ - MAKING YOUR BODY UNFIT FOR THE KINGDOM!
    So lets go point for point and then you can tell me which one is absurd
    1. The build-up quoted Romans 6 that makes us resurrected in His LIKENESS IF we are Baptized. This is the grammar of verse 4.
    2. 1st Corinthians 15 shows that the "stars" have DIFFERING glory in resurrection (v.41).
    3. The parables on the Kingdom show that not ALL servants or guests of the Lord make it into the Kingdom. See also 1st Cor.6:9, Gal.5:21 and Eph5:5
    4. The DIFFERING glory pertains to what was sown at death (1st Cor.15:36-37)

    My conclusion then is that a Christian who is refused entry to the kingdom based on habitual sinning is the reason for the differing glory. If ALL where LIKE Christ then we could assume that ALL inherit the kingdom.

    Now you take the four established points above and tell me;
    1. what is absurd about this conclusion?
    2. what you think is the reason for DIFFERING glories so that we may all check you for a scriptural conclusion?

    Next, a small point because I expect acrimony from Christians, can you show me where I said I knew the point were the DIFFERENCE was decisive. Or did I say that at some point this would happen and leave it to the Judge of Bema - Jesus Christ?

    Finally, I present you with SIX Christians and ask you if they (i) will have the same glory in resurrection as Paul, and (ii) be counted worthy of the Kingdom:
    1. Ananias an Saphira?
    2. The incestuous brother of 1st Corinthians 5?
    3. The saints who had died for taking the Lord's Table unworthily in 1st Corinthians 11:30
    4. The brother who took another brother before a heathen court in 1st Corinthians 6?
    5. The brothers who preach Christ out of contention in Philippians 1:14-15?
    6. Alexander the copper-smith of 1st Timothy 1:20 and 2nd Timothy 4:14?

  5. #65
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    I don't necessarily see what's being said to you as accusatory but more like a logical conclusion from the words you choose to use. For instance , look at the highlighted above...Which is it ? Condemned , or not ? A genuine believer cannot be condemned Walls. That position would be very contradictory, and this is why you have the conclusions people are getting to.



    The ones who exercised disbelief in the wilderness wandered for 40 years until they all died out then the remnant was allowed to go in. I strongly do not recommend that you use these verses to back your stance that a believer can be condemned.



    You are stretching here.



    Can someone who is a genuine believer be condemned , or not ? You can clarify every bit of this with a yes or a no.
    I pointed out that "condemned" was not used in your verses, and you then proceed to use it exclusively. The words that the Holy Spirit used is that unrighteous Christians would "NOT INHERIT the Kingdom". Could you still present the same argument if you used the correct wording?

    And tell me why, if the Holy Spirit tells me in 1st Corinthians 10 to learn from Israel because they are our EXAMPLE, you "strongly advise me not to do it"? This is a very strange attitude of a GENUINE Christian! Israel was "saved" a number of times and yet the 600,000 men of war did NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF ISRAEL. During all this they remained GENUINE ISRAELITES.

    "Stretching it" is a strange argument. If you don't agree, build your exegesis into a logically sustainable argument.

    It looks like that FAIRNESS has evaporated, OR, that you have formed your opinion IRRESPECTIVE of the language used by the Holy Spirit.

  6. #66
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    OK.




    You claimed in post #35 that the stars reference how Christians will be judged and that this shows we will have different glories. That if we aren't baptized and do other works we will not enter the kingdom.
    That's not what the scriptures say at all it's just a cherry picked example that ignores the rest of the context like the same comparisons of seeds and plants, animals and fish flesh etc etc.
    But I gave a number of examples of Christians not making it into the Kingdom. These, you still have not answered, and /or shown to mean something else. You cut a paragraph out of a text and ignored the context. To date you have not shown why, or how the Christians will have DIFFERING glories? What you have said, now, in this posting, is

    Paul was saying - in context -that our resurrected bodies will be different from our flesh bodies. As I already stated in reply to you. Read the thread again please.
    NO! Paul is not saying that. He was saying that IN RESURRECTION the glories would differ. NOT that the glories of the resurrected would differ from the un-resurrected. Here is the verse as the Holy Spirit gives it;

    41 "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. ... ."


    You blatantly misrepresent what was said.


    Concerning baptism.



    This is the doctrine of Baptismal Regeneration - Look it up - and you added on the claim that water baptism is the new circumcision. .

    This is what I said was balderdash and poppycock. Again, read the thread again. I have responded to your posts and I posted scriptures in context that should have opened up your eyes if you bothered to read them all through instead of only looking at certain lines and words.

    I may not have went point by point showing what you wrote and my exact reply but I shouldn't have to. I also shouldn't have to explain what doctrine you're teaching. You should know before you try and teach it or put it out there.
    A boy with high-school English would not say that these five sentences teach Baptismal Regeneration. Let's lay them out to see if Baptismal Regeneration is even alluded to in one of them: Quote Originally Posted by Walls;
    1. I've followed the answers to this thread, and again I am amazed. Baptismal Regeneration - where?
    2. On the one hand we have the contingent that settles for a meaningless Christian ritual and on the far side, those who (rightly) say that we have to do it because it is ordered by the Lord. Baptismal Regeneration - where?
    3. In the previous thread on Baptism, I outlined Baptism as it pertains to three of the four aspects of salvation. The word "pertains" shows an ASPECT of it. Ballast "pertains" to a diver's equipment. It IS NOT THE WHOLE EQUIPMENT. The wing of an aircraft "pertains" to it's ability to fly. What of the other wing, tail-plane, fuselage, engines, fuel, controls and pilots? Is the wing ALL of an aircraft?
    4. Then I outlined the principle of any man chosen by God to walk through and bury his past in water. Is this true or not? And, did I say that Noah, Abraham, and Israel passing through the flood was their REBIRTH. Did I not say that it was the cutting off of the past in death?
    5. Then I outlined the reasons by Colossians 2 showed Baptism to be the new circumcision. Circumcision is Baptismal Regeneration in your eyes??? Wow!

    Now brother, you are a Christian. You represent the highest moral standing on earth. Pray, show us Baptismal Regeneration in these five sentences as you claim in your posting.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    NO! Paul is not saying that. He was saying that IN RESURRECTION the glories would differ. NOT that the glories of the resurrected would differ from the un-resurrected. Here is the verse as the Holy Spirit gives it;

    41 "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. ... ."


    You blatantly misrepresent what was said.
    Sorry my friend but it is you who are misrepresenting here what Paul had said.

    1Co 15:35* But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?*

    This is what he answered and the example of the stars are part of his argument that the resurrected will receive a new body, a heavenly one. It has nothing to do with different glories received for the saved. This whole part is written for us to understand that the bodies of us will be different after the resurrection. Nothing more and nothing less.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    But I gave a number of examples of Christians not making it into the Kingdom.
    No you didn't. You claim that's what the scripture are conveying - but they don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    These, you still have not answered, and /or shown to mean something else.
    You cut a paragraph out of a text and ignored the context.
    I've answered you several times now. It's not my fault if you can't follow along.


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    To date you have not shown why, or how the Christians will have DIFFERING glories?
    Because we won't. Period. You're either saved/born again and an inheritor or you aren't. There isn't any in between.


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    NO! Paul is not saying that. He was saying that IN RESURRECTION the glories would differ. NOT that the glories of the resurrected would differ from the un-resurrected. Here is the verse as the Holy Spirit gives it;

    41 "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. ... ."


    You blatantly misrepresent what was said.
    Again - I've already answered this. Context, context, context. Read the whole of it in context and stop cherry picking one or two verses and ignoring the rest of it AND a whole, whole bunch of scriptures that state otherwise.




    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    A boy with high-school English would not say that these five sentences teach Baptismal Regeneration. Let's lay them out to see if Baptismal Regeneration is even alluded to in one of them: Quote Originally Posted by Walls;
    1. I've followed the answers to this thread, and again I am amazed. Baptismal Regeneration - where?
    2. On the one hand we have the contingent that settles for a meaningless Christian ritual and on the far side, those who (rightly) say that we have to do it because it is ordered by the Lord. Baptismal Regeneration - where?
    3. In the previous thread on Baptism, I outlined Baptism as it pertains to three of the four aspects of salvation. The word "pertains" shows an ASPECT of it. Ballast "pertains" to a diver's equipment. It IS NOT THE WHOLE EQUIPMENT. The wing of an aircraft "pertains" to it's ability to fly. What of the other wing, tail-plane, fuselage, engines, fuel, controls and pilots? Is the wing ALL of an aircraft?
    4. Then I outlined the principle of any man chosen by God to walk through and bury his past in water. Is this true or not? And, did I say that Noah, Abraham, and Israel passing through the flood was their REBIRTH. Did I not say that it was the cutting off of the past in death?
    5. Then I outlined the reasons by Colossians 2 showed Baptism to be the new circumcision. Circumcision is Baptismal Regeneration in your eyes??? Wow!

    Now brother, you are a Christian. You represent the highest moral standing on earth. Pray, show us Baptismal Regeneration in these five sentences as you claim in your posting.
    Riiiight. You should know by now I don't play games. I'll read a whole thread or whole posts and others in others threads before I reply. Again, you've tried to teach Baptismal Regeneration and I guess you don't even know it. And again, it's not my fault if you don't know what Baptismal Regeneration is and how it is supposedly explained.

    Edit to say. Look man, I love you as my brother in Christ and as such I've tried to point out that most of what you've stated in this thread is contrary to Scripture and the gospel.
    If I've seemed disrespectful or intending to offend I apologize. That is not my intent at all. It's also not my intent to delve into the micro when the macro of it is - context. You're ignoring context and so misleading yourself. Until you realize that we'll just be spinning our wheels.

  9. #69

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    1Co 15:35* But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?*

    This is what he answered and the example of the stars are part of his argument that the resurrected will receive a new body, a heavenly one. It has nothing to do with different glories received for the saved. This whole part is written for us to understand that the bodies of us will be different after the resurrection. Nothing more and nothing less.
    That is indeed what Paul is saying.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Randy, there is only one Gospel message.

    One thing I left out in my rant earlier was this.... false theology is one of the most hindering things to the great commission. Studying about it without practicing it is sin.
    I don't know what you're trying to say to me? I've never said there's any more than one Gospel message. Adding baptism to that message or taking baptism away from that message does not alter the message. Baptism is not part of the message of Salvation. Baptism is not the Gospel.

    1 Cor 1.17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post

    1 Cor 1.17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel.
    You're taking that out of context. Read 1 Corinthians 3 & 4. People were bragging about who was baptized by whom.
    It should also be viewed in light of other letters ( now Scripture ) that Paul sent. Paul sure seems to assume that those he wrote to had been baptized and in other Scriptures we see plenty references to people always being baptized after Paul preached.
    You have to remember that Paul was a really big deal and he steadfastly tried to do everything he could to keep people's eyes, hearts and minds centered on Christ.
    He preached to and had much authority over The Church. He left the baptizing to others so people wouldn't boast about being "Paul's."

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    So lets go point for point and then you can tell me which one is absurd[*]1st Corinthians 15 shows that the "stars" have DIFFERING glory in resurrection (v.41).[*]The DIFFERING glory pertains to what was sown at death (1st Cor.15:36-37)
    My conclusion then is that a Christian who is refused entry to the kingdom based on habitual sinning is the reason for the differing glory.
    The glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. (1 Corinthians 15)

    My confusion comes from reading that there are two kinds of glory - not a variance within them - but one or the other. In or out. Paul applies this to the whole inheritance, not just pieces of it.

    What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
    It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory.
    It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
    It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
    We have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
    Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.


    Would you say that not all these things apply to believers? Will there be some believers who don't receive a combination of these?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    So lets go point for point and then you can tell me which one is absurd[*]1st Corinthians 15 shows that the "stars" have DIFFERING glory in resurrection (v.41).[*]The DIFFERING glory pertains to what was sown at death (1st Cor.15:36-37)
    My conclusion then is that a Christian who is refused entry to the kingdom based on habitual sinning is the reason for the differing glory.
    The glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. (1 Corinthians 15)

    My confusion comes from reading that there are two kinds of glory - not a variance within them - but one or the other. In or out. Paul applies this to the whole inheritance, not just pieces of it.

    What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
    It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory.
    It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
    It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
    We have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
    Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.


    Would you say that not all these things apply to believers? Will there be some believers who don't receive a combination of these?
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    You're taking that out of context. Read 1 Corinthians 3 & 4. People were bragging about who was baptized by whom.
    It should also be viewed in light of other letters ( now Scripture ) that Paul sent. Paul sure seems to assume that those he wrote to had been baptized and in other Scriptures we see plenty references to people always being baptized after Paul preached.
    You have to remember that Paul was a really big deal and he steadfastly tried to do everything he could to keep people's eyes, hearts and minds centered on Christ.
    He preached to and had much authority over The Church. He left the baptizing to others so people wouldn't boast about being "Paul's" convert.
    No, I'm not taking that out of context. That is just how it reads, and how Christians better than me, read it. Baptism is *not* a part of Salvation. Luther tried as hard as he could trying to keep Baptism a Sacrament, while at the same time teaching Salvation by *Faith Alone.* In my view, he completely failed.

    Your own view that it is an ordinance is okay with me, but not what I actually believe. I believe that focus was on Faith Alone for Salvation, and that Baptism by Water was *not* part of Salvation. There are a number of different Scriptures that amplify this, from the fact Jesus did not Baptize, but only his disciples, to Paul's deemphasis on Water Baptism in his ministry, to John the Baptist saying that Spirit Baptism was superior to Water Baptism.

    All of these Scriptures indicate that Water Baptism was useful as an initiation ceremony into Christianity, and as a means of showing your repentance publicly. It was a form of *confession,* which is in fact part of our Salvation. We confess with our mouth that Jesus is our Lord, and we will be Saved.

    Baptism is not necessary as the means of confession, but it is certainly *a means,* and one that was used in the time of Jesus' earthly ministry. But confession can be had in other ways. Water Baptism is fine, if it's that important to your view of Scriptures. But I find the Scriptures simply use it as an add on to Salvation by Faith Alone, indicating that a confession is being made publicly, serving further to witness to the public. It is a *good thing to do,* but not essential for Salvation.

    Simply providing the context for Paul's concerns does not show that Paul did not mean what he said. He said Water Baptism is not "preaching the Gospel." And he was right--it isn't. But it does serve a good purpose in the process of preaching the Gospel, so that those who get saved have an opportunity to confess what already happened earlier, when they accept Faith in Christ.

  14. #74
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    I've never understood those who promote various levels of salvation. It just doesn't make sense. You are either born , or you aren't.
    Hooah and Amen. Another thing with those who promote various levels of salvation... none will honestly address the question I always ask in whatever scenario has motivated the question
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    But I gave a number of examples of Christians not making it into the Kingdom. These, you still have not answered, and /or shown to mean something else. You cut a paragraph out of a text and ignored the context. To date you have not shown why, or how the Christians will have DIFFERING glories? What you have said, now, in this posting, is
    I don't have a problem with your view that there are different glories for different stars. Certainly, those closer to earth have a greater impact. Those farther away have less of an impact. I would say that those Christians who are closer to the Lord may shine brighter. But I would never say that a star "farther away" would lack brightness!

    If you are indicating that the level of brightness determines whether a Christian makes it into the Millennial Kingdom or not, I would have to ask how you get this out of 1 Cor 15? You base your assumptions on the idea that the Millennial Kingdom is a different reward than Eternal Life in general. And I don't see that anywhere in the Scriptures?

    Furthermore, you take groups of people in covenant with God and indicate that some are qualified and some are not. This is no different than saying Israel was all under God's covenant, and that some failed whereas some did not.

    Clearly, some who failed in Israel were still saved by faith, and some who failed in Israel were lost. But the fact remains, being under covenant with God does not determine that you will end up either in the Millennial Kingdom or simply in Eternal Life!

    You are grading believers based on works. And the only works that determine whether you will go to heaven or to hell are the works of choosing to believe or not. Sometimes those choices look like works. But they are only works that God requires of us in the process of choosing. If we choose to do the right things, we will be saved. If we don't, we will be lost.

    There is undoubtedly levels of faithfulness among God's people. There's a difference between the Apostle Paul and his ministry and those who backslide all their lives and get through the pearly gates in shame. All will be saved, however. Nowhere are we told that those less able to enter heaven will be punished by exclusion from the Millennial Kingdom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    NO! Paul is not saying that. He was saying that IN RESURRECTION the glories would differ. NOT that the glories of the resurrected would differ from the un-resurrected. Here is the verse as the Holy Spirit gives it;

    41 "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. ... ."


    You blatantly misrepresent what was said.
    I find it interesting that the moon is lumped together with the "stars." The moon purely reflects light, and does not create it. Is this an indication that the Lost will have resurrection bodies like the moon, reflecting the goodness of God without generating that goodness themselves? I wonder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    A boy with high-school English would not say that these five sentences teach Baptismal Regeneration. Let's lay them out to see if Baptismal Regeneration is even alluded to in one of them: Quote Originally Posted by Walls;
    1. I've followed the answers to this thread, and again I am amazed. Baptismal Regeneration - where?
    2. On the one hand we have the contingent that settles for a meaningless Christian ritual and on the far side, those who (rightly) say that we have to do it because it is ordered by the Lord. Baptismal Regeneration - where?
    3. In the previous thread on Baptism, I outlined Baptism as it pertains to three of the four aspects of salvation. The word "pertains" shows an ASPECT of it. Ballast "pertains" to a diver's equipment. It IS NOT THE WHOLE EQUIPMENT. The wing of an aircraft "pertains" to it's ability to fly. What of the other wing, tail-plane, fuselage, engines, fuel, controls and pilots? Is the wing ALL of an aircraft?
    4. Then I outlined the principle of any man chosen by God to walk through and bury his past in water. Is this true or not? And, did I say that Noah, Abraham, and Israel passing through the flood was their REBIRTH. Did I not say that it was the cutting off of the past in death?
    5. Then I outlined the reasons by Colossians 2 showed Baptism to be the new circumcision. Circumcision is Baptismal Regeneration in your eyes??? Wow!

    Now brother, you are a Christian. You represent the highest moral standing on earth. Pray, show us Baptismal Regeneration in these five sentences as you claim in your posting.
    I agree that you're *not* teaching Baptismal Regeneration--it just sounds related to it. When you say that Christian works earn some a place in God's Kingdom, whereas other Christians obtain eternal life but do not earn a place in Christ's Kingdom, it sounds a lot like those who do good works have been born again, whereas the rest are not.

    But I accept your words as they are, and won't accuse you of otherwise. I just don't think this double-standard of rewards holds in terms of the Kingdom and Eternal Life. I think you're right that there are levels of reward in heaven. But I believe all who get to Eternal Life will also be overcomers who inherit the Kingdom of Christ. Just embracing Christ as one's Savior is, by definition, "overcoming." My opinion.

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