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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #76
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Originally Posted by randyk

    I don't have a problem with your view that there are different glories for different stars. Certainly, those closer to earth have a greater impact. Those farther away have less of an impact. I would say that those Christians who are closer to the Lord may shine brighter. But I would never say that a star "farther away" would lack brightness!

    During the traveling home tonight from a trip, my wife brought up this weeks Jan Markell show, the guest was Dr. Mark Hitchcock. They spoke about his new book, Heavenly Rewards and I bet you would find what he says very interesting.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  2. #77
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, I see the teaching of Jesus to his Apostles in Israel as setting the stage for a future expansion of his Gospel of the Kingdom. Some elements of his preaching to his Apostles were specific, such as Baptism. Other things, such as the Great Commission, were to be carried on into future generations, including in the time of Gentile expansion. Baptism was *not* part of the Gospel, as indicated by Paul. He indicated he was not called to Baptize, but to preach the Gospel.

    1 Cor 1.17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel.
    Well you did call it a recommendation of Jesus. As to Paul, his point was that he personally didnít baptize many, but that his coworkers did. He was not de-emphasizing baptism. I really think youíre missing this, by a lot.
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

  3. #78
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    During the traveling home tonight from a trip, my wife brought up this weeks Jan Markell show, the guest was Dr. Mark Hitchcock. They spoke about his new book, Heavenly Rewards and I bet you would find what he says very interesting.
    I'm interested. Can you give me a tease, so I don't have to run out and buy the book?

  4. #79
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Well you did call it a recommendation of Jesus. As to Paul, his point was that he personally didnít baptize many, but that his coworkers did. He was not de-emphasizing baptism. I really think youíre missing this, by a lot.
    Okay, that's your view. Yes, I do believe it was a recommendation of Jesus. I don't believe Baptism is a necessary initiation ceremony into Christianity. I was born a Christian from day one. I didn't have to wait until I was old enough to get Baptized. I had infant Baptism, so I was dedicated by my parents to Christianity. This is just how I feel about it, brother. Baptism played no significant role in my life. It didn't keep me from being Saved. I've never known what it's like to not be saved. On the other hand, I had to learn a lot about the Holy Spirit, after being raised a Lutheran.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Originally Posted by randyk

    Okay, that's your view. Yes, I do believe it was a recommendation of Jesus. I don't believe Baptism is a necessary initiation ceremony into Christianity. I was born a Christian from day one. I didn't have to wait until I was old enough to get Baptized. I had infant Baptism, so I was dedicated by my parents to Christianity. This is just how I feel about it, brother. Baptism played no significant role in my life. It didn't keep me from being Saved. I've never known what it's like to not be saved. On the other hand, I had to learn a lot about the Holy Spirit, after being raised a Lutheran.
    Randy, EVERY Christian knows what it was like not to be saved. They know this as a fact because before they accepted Jesus as their "personal" Lord/Savior, they weren't saved and AFTER they did accept Him, they were saved.

    How can any "Christian" who surrendered themselves over to Jesus, NOT know what it was like... before they knew Jesus?

    You are literally saying, "I don't know my "oldman" (no mind of Christ) compared to my Newman (mind of Christ)
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Deleted !
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  7. #82
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm interested. Can you give me a tease, so I don't have to run out and buy the book?
    Just listen to this weeks podcast, ya don't need to read the book.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  8. #83

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    As to Paul, his point was that he personally didn’t baptize many, but that his coworkers did. He was not de-emphasizing baptism.
    That is exactly right.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, I'm not taking that out of context.
    Ah! Thanks for laying that out. For some strange reason I thought you were using that verse to illustrate your view that baptism was largely focused on the 1st generation of the church.

    Sorry about Randy. My mistake bro.
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    The glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. (1 Corinthians 15)

    My confusion comes from reading that there are two kinds of glory - not a variance within them - but one or the other. In or out. Paul applies this to the whole inheritance, not just pieces of it.

    What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
    It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory.
    It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
    It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
    We have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
    Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.


    Would you say that not all these things apply to believers? Will there be some believers who don't receive a combination of these?
    My posting #64 asked you to answer a number of questions. If you had answered these questions, you would have had your answer. Instead, you have focused away from the verses in question and introduced another set. So what I will do now is answer for you.

    So lets go point for point and then you can tell me which one is absurd

    [1]The build-up quoted Romans 6 that makes us resurrected in His LIKENESS IF we are Baptized. This is the grammar of verse 4.
    Answer. This is NOT ABSURD

    [2]1st Corinthians 15 shows that the "stars" have DIFFERING glory in resurrection (v.41).
    Answer. This is NOT ABSURD

    [3]The parables on the Kingdom show that not ALL servants or guests of the Lord make it into the Kingdom. See also 1st Cor.6:9, Gal.5:21 and Eph5:5
    Answer. This is what scripture shows. It is NOT ABSURD

    [4]The DIFFERING glory pertains to what was sown at death (1st Cor.15:36-37)
    Answer. This is what scripture say therefore it is NOT ABSURD

    My conclusion then is that a Christian who is refused entry to the kingdom based on habitual sinning is the reason for the differing glory. If ALL where LIKE Christ then we could assume that ALL inherit the kingdom.
    Answer. This is a likely answer. It might not be correct but it is NOT ABSURD.

    Now you take the four established points above and tell me;
    1. what is absurd about this conclusion?
    2. what you think is the reason for DIFFERING glories so that we may all check you for a scriptural conclusion?

    Next, a small point because I expect acrimony from Christians, can you show me where I said I knew the point were the DIFFERENCE was decisive. Or did I say that at some point this would happen and leave it to the Judge of Bema - Jesus Christ?
    Answer. I pointed out that the stars had DIFFERING glories. But they are all supposed to be LIKE Christ. I did not quantify which glory of trillions is the dividing line. Instead I showed that at Christ's Judgment Seat that MANY Christians would be found unworthy, not of rebirth, not of eternal life, not of sonship to God BUT INHERITING THE KINGDOM when it is set up on earth. The criteria, or level of DIFFERING glory I did not address simply because Christ is the Judge and not me.

    Finally, I present you with SIX Christians and ask you if they (i) will have the same glory in resurrection as Paul, and (ii) be counted worthy of the Kingdom:

    [1]Ananias and Saphira?
    Answer. Ananias and Saphira will surely not enjoy the same glory as Paul, and will not be counted worthy of the Kingdom. What is bound on earth is bound in heaven. They were slaughtered by the Lord for a heinous crime and their standing in death (when they are son) is fixed. They were found unworthy for the Church had thus they are found unworthy for the Kingdom

    [2]The incestuous brother of 1st Corinthians 5?
    Answer. This brother was found worthy of being cut out of the Church and also worthy to be handed to Satan for destruction of his body. His glory is one of utter perfidy. He will not be found worthy of the Kingdom.

    [3]The saints who had died for taking the Lord's Table unworthily in 1st Corinthians 11:30
    Answer. These saints trampled underfoot the precious blood of Jesus after it has been accepted by God in heaven for the putting of away of all sins ever committed. This is a grand insult to God and Christ. It will not go unnoticed at the Bema. Their glory is that of when they were sown in death - utterly unworthy of Christ Himself.

    [4]The brother who took another brother before a heathen court in 1st Corinthians 6?
    Answer. In Matthew 16 and 18 the Church is given the KEYS to the KINGDOM. For Christians, the procedure of Matthew 18 MUST BE FOLLOWED. It decides who will enter the Kingdom or not. The brother who takes another brother before a lower court despises God Government. Shall a man who despises God's Government be part of it? NO! He has rejected it.

    [5]The brothers who preach Christ out of contention in Philippians 1:14-15?
    Answer. These brothers disagreed with Paul, refused his Apostleship and taught the gospel to stir up Caesar against Paul. They are dishonest, vengeful, jealous and conspiratorial in evil. Will these men be allowed to be co-kings with Christ in the Millennial Kingdom? NO!

    [6]Alexander the copper-smith of 1st Timothy 1:20 and 2nd Timothy 4:14?
    Answer. Alexander made his living by making images of Diana. Paul's gospel to put away strange gods hurt his business. Instead of finding another avenue of brass and copper work (and there are many) he stirred up men to kill Paul. He this (i) embraced the world, (ii) embraced idol worship, (iii) embraced conspiracy, (iv) embraced evil, (v) embraced murder, and (vi) embraced resistance to God's gospel. Will he be fit to rule with Christ when He comes and sets up His Kingdom on earth? NO!

    WAS ALEXANDER A CHRISTIAN? If we can answer this clearly then your last question is answered. 1st Timothy 1:19-20 reads;

    19 "Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
    20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme."


    In verse 19 Paul talks of Christians "Holding FAITH and a good conscience". You cannot HOLD something that was not given to you. If I said to you, hold that 100 million dollars you have, you would laugh and say that you do not have $100 million. So Paul is talking about men who HAD THE FAITH. Then, according to the rules of grammar, Paul says that some men who HELD good consciences, put them away. The result of putting them away was SHIPWRECK OF THEIR FAITH. A man man only put away what he already hold. So Alexander HAD FAITH, HAD A GOOD CONSCIENCE, but put away his good conscience. The result? "Shipwreck of his FAITH". Now "shipwreck" is an interesting term.

    When a ship is wrecked it sinks. Something puts a hole in the ship and water comes in making the ship unable to float. But as it lies on the ocean floor, is it still a ship? YES! It is STILL A SHIP but is not fulfilling the purpose that it was made for. ALEXANDER DID NOT LOSE HIS FAITH. His FAITH was still FAITH but was not fulfilling the intended purpose. He believed in Christ, but did not think that Christ could meet his needs if he gave up making copper effigies of Diana. He HELD faith but did not EXERCISE it. His faith was faith but lying at the bottom of the ocean. But there is more.

    Alexander once HELD a GOOD CONSCIENCE. How does a man get a good conscience. There is only one way - BAPTISM! 1st Peter 3:20-21.

    20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
    21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"


    For Alexander to have once HELD a good conscience means he was Baptized! ALEXANDER WAS FULL-FLEDGED BELIEVER AND WAS BAPTIZED. But he chose to go against Paul for money's sake. So now I ask, what shall the glory of Alexander be at the time of resurrection?

    Dear sister, there was nothing absurd about my argument. Put to the test, as it is above, nothing is absurd. It is thought through and documented. This does not mean that I could not make a mistake. But "absurd" describes something that (i) has no merit and (ii) flies in the face of what is possible in the given circumstances.

  11. #86

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    [2]1st Corinthians 15 shows that the "stars" have DIFFERING glory in resurrection (v.41).
    No, it really doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    [3]The parables on the Kingdom show that not ALL servants or guests of the Lord make it into the Kingdom. See also 1st Cor.6:9, Gal.5:21 and Eph5:5
    But many would say, they never did belong to the Lord (Matthew 7:23: "I never knew you").

    One of the sources of confusion here is that you are mixing an argument which seems to be against baptismal regeneration (and many would agree with you on this) with an argument for many different "grades of Christian" (which most would not).

    There also seems to be some confusion in the debate between the importance of baptism (many have pointed out that Jesus commanded that we do it, and the Church has always done so) and the function of baptism (what does it actually do?). On that second question, there would be at least half a dozen different answers.

  12. #87
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    I've never understood those who promote various levels of salvation. It just doesn't make sense. You are either born , or you aren't.
    It is a marvel how the human mind works when faced with the things of God. In the first sentence you introduce your problem - supposed levels of salvation. But two sentences later you substitute the word "salvation" with "born". Is it a wonder things are un-understandable?

    Here is an example of what you do when you interchange totally different things.

    This morning my son was saved from drowning by a lifeguard. The lifeguard's technique birthed my son.

    Absurd? You bet. If you introduce "salvation" and make it the same as "rebirth" you create an absurdity. But now I will ask you a question. Pray, tell me about salvation in these scriptures.

    Acts 2:21 and 4:12 we read severally;
    21 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
    12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

    Here we are "saved" by the Name of Jesus.

    Hebrews 10:39 - "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."
    Here the man must not draw back unto perdition and thus save his soul. "Draw back" implies that he was already avoiding perdition. But is not salvation by calling on the name of the Lord as in Acts 2 and 4 above?

    1st Timothy 4:16; "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." Here, salvation is by heeding oneself and heeding doctrine. But is not salvation by calling on the Name of the Lord?

    1st Timothy 2:15 - "Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." A woman is saved "in childbearing"! And she must continue in faith, love and sobriety to be saved. How? and why only women?

    2nd Peter 2:5 - "And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly." Noah was not saved by calling on the Lord. He was saved by an Ark.

    Romans 13:11 - "And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed." Here, those who have already called on the Lord must wake out a sleep to be saved sometime in the future. Very different from calling on the Lord's name.

    Ephesians 6:17 - "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." Is salvation to be saved from something or is it a helmet?

    Philippians 1:19 - "For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ." Was not Paul already saved? How come he needed a further salvation. And what was this further salvation?

    Philippians 2:12 - "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." But is not salvation by faith and by calling on the Lord's name. How must WE workout our OWN salvation?

    1st Thessalonians 5:9 - "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ". The context here is the Great Tribulation. The Thessalonian saints were already Christians. What salvation is talked of here?

    Hebrews 9:28 - "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." Here Christ put away our sins at His first coming and we are saved by calling on His Name. But when He comes the seond time, there is a salvation then. What salvation?

    1st Peter 1:5 - "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." Here, Christians who are already saved, are kept for another salvation that comes when Jesus comes again. Which salvation is that that sins are no longer in the picture?

    1st Peter 1:9 - "Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls." But is not salvation the salvation of the spirit (Jn.3:6). Only the spirit of man is born again by the Spirit of God?

    Are these not all different "salvations"? Please explain.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I pointed out that "condemned" was not used in your verses, and you then proceed to use it exclusively. The words that the Holy Spirit used is that unrighteous Christians would "NOT INHERIT the Kingdom". Could you still present the same argument if you used the correct wording?

    And tell me why, if the Holy Spirit tells me in 1st Corinthians 10 to learn from Israel because they are our EXAMPLE, you "strongly advise me not to do it"? This is a very strange attitude of a GENUINE Christian! Israel was "saved" a number of times and yet the 600,000 men of war did NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF ISRAEL. During all this they remained GENUINE ISRAELITES.

    "Stretching it" is a strange argument. If you don't agree, build your exegesis into a logically sustainable argument.

    It looks like that FAIRNESS has evaporated, OR, that you have formed your opinion IRRESPECTIVE of the language used by the Holy Spirit.
    You're too hard to follow brother. I bow out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    It is a marvel how the human mind works when faced with the things of God. In the first sentence you introduce your problem - supposed levels of salvation. But two sentences later you substitute the word "salvation" with "born". Is it a wonder things are un-understandable?

    Here is an example of what you do when you interchange totally different things.

    This morning my son was saved from drowning by a lifeguard. The lifeguard's technique birthed my son.

    Absurd? You bet. If you introduce "salvation" and make it the same as "rebirth" you create an absurdity. But now I will ask you a question. Pray, tell me about salvation in these scriptures.

    Acts 2:21 and 4:12 we read severally;
    21 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
    12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

    Here we are "saved" by the Name of Jesus.

    Hebrews 10:39 - "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."
    Here the man must not draw back unto perdition and thus save his soul. "Draw back" implies that he was already avoiding perdition. But is not salvation by calling on the name of the Lord as in Acts 2 and 4 above?

    1st Timothy 4:16; "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." Here, salvation is by heeding oneself and heeding doctrine. But is not salvation by calling on the Name of the Lord?

    1st Timothy 2:15 - "Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." A woman is saved "in childbearing"! And she must continue in faith, love and sobriety to be saved. How? and why only women?

    2nd Peter 2:5 - "And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly." Noah was not saved by calling on the Lord. He was saved by an Ark.

    Romans 13:11 - "And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed." Here, those who have already called on the Lord must wake out a sleep to be saved sometime in the future. Very different from calling on the Lord's name.

    Ephesians 6:17 - "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." Is salvation to be saved from something or is it a helmet?

    Philippians 1:19 - "For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ." Was not Paul already saved? How come he needed a further salvation. And what was this further salvation?

    Philippians 2:12 - "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." But is not salvation by faith and by calling on the Lord's name. How must WE workout our OWN salvation?

    1st Thessalonians 5:9 - "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ". The context here is the Great Tribulation. The Thessalonian saints were already Christians. What salvation is talked of here?

    Hebrews 9:28 - "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." Here Christ put away our sins at His first coming and we are saved by calling on His Name. But when He comes the seond time, there is a salvation then. What salvation?

    1st Peter 1:5 - "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." Here, Christians who are already saved, are kept for another salvation that comes when Jesus comes again. Which salvation is that that sins are no longer in the picture?

    1st Peter 1:9 - "Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls." But is not salvation the salvation of the spirit (Jn.3:6). Only the spirit of man is born again by the Spirit of God?

    Are these not all different "salvations"? Please explain.
    Something is born and alive , or it ain't. Simple as that.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't know what you're trying to say to me? I've never said there's any more than one Gospel message. Adding baptism to that message or taking baptism away from that message does not alter the message. Baptism is not part of the message of Salvation. Baptism is not the Gospel.

    1 Cor 1.17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel.
    Preach so that some may be saved, baptized, discipled, and added to the church. AKA - the great commission.

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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    No, it really doesn't.
    How do you understand this grammar? I am open to teaching. 1st Corinthians 15:41;

    "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."

    • There is one glory of a Ferrari, and AN-OTHER glory of a Lada (Russian built), and another glory of an Audi, because one Audi differs from another Audi in glory.
    • There is one glory of a general, another glory of a sargeant, and another glory of the footsoldier, for among footsoldiers their mindset and physique differs

    Do we agree, or have I missed something?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    But many would say, they never did belong to the Lord (Matthew 7:23: "I never knew you").
    And they would be wrong. But before I explain, notice what you have done. You changed the word "know" to "belong". Are they not two different things? Be that as it may, the word "know" in Matthew 7:23 does not mean intellectual knowledge. Our Lord Jesus, as Maker of ALL things (Jn.1:3), has technical and intellectual knowledge of every man, his hairs and fleas in it. The word "know" used in Matthew 7:23 means that He had no intimate and cognizant knowledge of the man. The meaning of this word is shown in its first mention in the Bible in Matthew 1:25, "And (Joseph) knew her (Mary) not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS."

    Mark 16:17 says that casting out a demon is a sign of a BELIEVER. The issue in Matthew 7:21-23 is not whether they were believers or not. They called Jesus Lord, Lord. The cast out demons in His Name. They did many miracles in His Name. But their fault was that they did their own thing. The question is, if a man is given the gift to cast out demons, can he just go off and look for demons to cast out. Or, is he bound by his General in heaven - the Father? These men are not refused the Kingdom because of the works. The can only be performed by God's power. They were refused entry into the Kingdom because they did these things WITHOUT ORDERS fro the Father. Is not Paul, and every Christian, given the great commission to speak and teach the gospel everywhere and in every season? If so, why then does the Holy Spirit refuse Paul's attempts to go to Asia and Bythynia in Acts 16:6-7? Because the Holy Spirit had OTHER PLANS. Preach the gospel always? YES! But UNDER ORDERS for the situation. David desires to build the Temple. "Well done", says the Lord. You have a house, now I want a House. You have all you need, now I need a House. You have my desires on your heart --- BUT YOU SHALL NOT BUILD IT! I HAVE OTHER PLANS!

    The "workers of iniquity" of Matthew 7:21-23 are, in every aspect Christians. Their fault was that they did their own thing - independent of Christ their Head. They built no relationship with Him, and He had no intimate relationship with them. How can such rebels be co-kings with Christ in His Kingdom? Christians who do their own thing will be refused entry into the Kingdom! "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" (Romans 8:14)

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    One of the sources of confusion here is that you are mixing an argument which seems to be against baptismal regeneration (and many would agree with you on this) with an argument for many different "grades of Christian" (which most would not).
    Thank you for your perceptions. It is a strange thing that I can quiz any man, even one so eminent as BrianW, to show me where I promoted Baptismal Regeneration, and they are unable to show it from either my words or the grammar. He has singularly ducked the discussion after his denigrating words of "poppycock and balderdash". But may I ask you, is Christianity a group of equal people? Are some leaders and some followers? Are some stricter with themselves that others? Are different Christians given different gifts? And are those who are given the same gift given some five Talents and some one Talent? Are some prominent ans some more hidden? Are some more given for the Lord and some more sloppy? Are some self-centered and some selfless? What does 1 Corinthians 12:27-30 say?

    27 "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
    28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
    29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
    30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?"


    Is it not God Himself Who has made "grades" in the Church? And in the Letters to the Churches in Revelation, are there not DIFFERING Christians? Were the Christians at Corinth of the same caliber as Thessaloniki? And does not scripture say that the Berean Christians were more noble than the Thessalonian saints in Acts 17:11. Are these not DIFFERENCES? I'm sure you will agree - IT IS MY OPPONENTS WHO OVERTURN SCRIPTURE BY MAKING ALL SAINTS EQUAL.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    There also seems to be some confusion in the debate between the importance of baptism (many have pointed out that Jesus commanded that we do it, and the Church has always done so) and the function of baptism (what does it actually do?). On that second question, there would be at least half a dozen different answers.
    Yes. And it was these that I outlined in my postings - not Baptismal Regeneration. Here is a summary:
    1. God required every man He called for His purpose to pass through a flood to "kill" the old in death waters, Noah, Abraham, Israel and the Church
    2. Baptism causes us to be LIKE Christ in resurrection (Rom.6:1-5)
    3. Baptism clears the conscience (1st Pet.3:21)
    4. Baptism is one of the CONDITIONS for receiving the "gift of the Holy Spirit" FOR POWER (Act.2:38; Lk.24:49; Act.1:8) (not for eternal life - Jn.20:22)
    5. God change the "sign" of circumcision which was for Israel and Canaan, to baptism for the Church (Col.2:11-12) because we are now also sons of Abraham and eligible for the Promise (Rom.4:13; Gal.3:29). This "sign" is for the Land, or Earth (Rom.4:13) is NOT for salvation.
    6. God made the rebirth a condition to SEE the Kingdom. That means that the born again Christian will be resurrected to see the Kingdom in action when Christ returns (Jn.3:3). But to ENTER the Kingdom when Christ returns God requires REBIRTH AND BAPTISM (Jn.3:5)

    Read these scriptures and see if you see any other way to understand the plain language.

    God bless and go well.

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