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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #91
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    You're too hard to follow brother. I bow out.



    Something is born and alive , or it ain't. Simple as that.
    A serpent gets born and is alive. This is different to when a serpent falls into a reservoir and a serpent-lover rescues it. One is birth - the other is salvation. The Bible is not just one Chapter long. Shall we not honor God Who wrote such intricacies over nearly 1,200 Chapters?

    • Christ's death is for our sins
    • Christ's death is also for us to die with and IN Him
    • Christ's resurrection is for rebirth of the human spirit
    • Christ's resurrection is also for our resurrection
    • Christ is our Burnt Offering, our Meal Offering and our Peace Offering - none of which address our sin and sins
    • Christ is a Sin Offering and our Trespass Offering
    • Christ is made our righteousness
    • Christ is our coming King
    • Christ is our present Head
    • Christ allows us to be justified

    Each one of these things deals with a problem that we fallen men have. And there are more than this. Each has had multiple books written about them. Who said the Bible was simple? Spread your wings brother. Be open to more revelation. Make some mistakes but don't change one word for another. You don't do this in life and you don't do it at work. Don't do it in the Bible.

  2. #92

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    How do you understand this grammar? I am open to teaching. 1st Corinthians 15:41;

    "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."
    The application follows the words "so is it with the resurrection of the dead" in v. 42. Nothing about different kinds of glory among resurrected bodies there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The "workers of iniquity" of Matthew 7:21-23 are, in every aspect Christians.
    They appeared to be Christians. They weren't really.

    For the rest, TL;DR.

  3. #93
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Randy, EVERY Christian knows what it was like not to be saved. They know this as a fact because before they accepted Jesus as their "personal" Lord/Savior, they weren't saved and AFTER they did accept Him, they were saved.
    How can any "Christian" who surrendered themselves over to Jesus, NOT know what it was like... before they knew Jesus?
    You are literally saying, "I don't know my "oldman" (no mind of Christ) compared to my Newman (mind of Christ)
    I don't know how else to describe my life? Lots of people in what was a Christian country were raised from infancy in church. Maybe not a lot of them were taught to pray before meals and every night. I know that's how we were taught. We were taken to church every week from birth. I remember hearing the stories of Jesus and the Bible in Sunday School and in Vacation Bible School. I remember the first time my parents let me attend Sunday School on my own--I was exhilarated as I heard all the kids sing "Jesus Loves Me."

    I also know that I didn't know why I felt different and "square" in public school. Teachers gave me a quarter because I was so "nice." My friends' parents liked me. But I didn't like being "weird" and spending all my time with my parents while other kids ran wild together--this was when I got to Jr. High School. So I began to hang out with bad kids. I thought my parents were judgmental towards those in broken homes. I ended up becoming a "bad kid," and my friends' parents wanted their kids to stay away from me. I ended up in Juvenile Hall, arrested for drug possession/sales.

    While I was incarcerated I rented out a library book on witchcraft, and tried to laugh, mockingly, at my corruption. But inside I was shocked that I could end up like "bad kids," who didn't seem to know anything. The Holy Spirit left me as I mocked. I was horrified! I begged God to return to me, and complained that I hadn't realized how He had been with me all my life.

    After being released, lying about why I had drugs, I tried to reform but found myself somewhat addicted to my corrupt way of life, drug and alcohol use, etc. I found one of my old friends had become a "Jesus Person." I ended up telling him about the Bible because I knew so much more than he did--he was a converted pagan. I decided to turn away from all of my old friends and girlfriends, committing my life completely to Christ. I just realized I needed to do that one night while I was at a party. I felt so alone, and it just occurred to me that I was failing as a Christian because I was not giving my all.

    That's my testimony, brother. I can't tell you about any experience of "getting saved." Baptism played no role in it, much as you might want that to be the case. I was raised in church. I prayed every day. I knew the Lord and talked to Him all the time. I even talked to him when I did bad things. Even in my sinful "partying" I never stopped going to church. And after I came back to walking in righteousness I just kept going to church.

    One thing I can say, however, is that in my latter teens, when I came back to walking as an obedient Christian, I noticed a difference in my relationship with the Holy Spirit. He became more powerful in my life--noticeably so. I read in the Bible where God said He gives His Spirit to those who *obey Him.* As I began to regularly obey Him, doing what I knew was right, and separating from the world, I felt a difference in my spirituality.

    So my testimony is that we need to obey God and separate from the pagan world. We need to love them, but not fellowship with them, lest we fall into sin with them. Then we will be blessed, and know God's presence in our lives.

  4. #94
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Ah! Thanks for laying that out. For some strange reason I thought you were using that verse to illustrate your view that baptism was largely focused on the 1st generation of the church.

    Sorry about Randy. My mistake bro.
    To be honest I'm a little disconcerted that I seem to have upset a few who think I'm opposed to Water Baptism! That's not my intent. My intent is to honestly focus on the role Water Baptism has played in my life, and then draw conclusions that may actually help some.

    I know it is really taking a chance, because it appears I'm down-playing the value of Water Baptism. I'm not. I'm saying that the Scriptures place it down below Salvation, but certainly do recommend it. I don't see anywhere in Scriptures that Israel was *commanded* to partake in John's Baptism? On the other hand, he was a prophet if God, and I imagine the Holy Spirit pulled a lot of backslidden people to the Jordan River?

    My concern is that new Christians expect heaven to fall down on them when they engage in a Christian ritual like Baptism. That doesn't always happen--it certainly may. The important thing is to do it as a willful commitment, and not just to experience something "magical." We do it as a public witness to the world that we *are not participating with them any longer in their pagan ways.*

    This is how I experienced my own recommitment to Christ. It can happen through Baptism, and it can happen other ways. The important thing is that we commit ourselves to Christ's Salvation by faith, and then make that commitment a public testimony in the world. Baptism is a great way to begin that testimony, and I would encourage it.

    I just don't want to confuse Baptism with Salvation, unless we are talking about "Spirit Baptism." That is the "baptism" I'm most concerned with, because I believe that refers to actual Salvation. Initiation ceremonies are sometimes critical to "take the plunge" into a whole new way of life, letting family, friends, and acquaintances know all will never be the same. You're on a new path.

  5. #95
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Preach so that some may be saved, baptized, discipled, and added to the church. AKA - the great commission.
    Yes, my only point is that we preach so that *some may be Saved.* Baptism is an add on, and is of value as a public testimony to the Salvation we already have received.

    It is Salvation that is primary. Baptism has value as a public testimony.

    I'm just producing a priority list, so that we don't get confused about rituals, thinking that it a necessary ingredient in Salvation. Salvation is all about a relationship with God, and about God's Spirit indwelling us. It is not about participating in public testimonials, although that is certainly an extension of our Christian life.

    Salvation is not about Communion Services, and "ingesting Salvation." We initially partake of Salvation the day we accept Christ and accept His presence at the core of our being, making Him Lord.

    Neither do I agree with Walls that Baptism somehow elevates us to a higher level of Christianity. Baptism is an expression we may need to put ourselves out there, confessing who we've become and who we'll be in the world. It also helps others to know that we will no longer be with them if they're pagans.

  6. #96
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Okay, that's your view. Yes, I do believe it was a recommendation of Jesus.
    And then this should be enough of a reason to do so. BUT... it's much more than a recommendation Randy. He commanded that the Apostle's go and do so, then teaching those that they disciple to do the same.

  7. #97
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Just listen to this weeks podcast, ya don't need to read the book.
    I listened to twenty some minutes of it, and yes, I enjoyed it. I just don't enjoy the "Rapture" part of it, since I'm Postrib. Regardless, a lot of points were made that I've believed myself. So thanks--it was nice to know others feel similarly to the way I do.

    I did notice that a reference was made to different "glories" of stars, with each person's "cup" being completely "full," whereas each of us has a different size of cup! That's probably true.

    And that's kind of where I've been on the matter of differing "glories" of stars. I do think that there will be many, many Christians in eternity, with different stars, not to demean smaller stars, but only because God loves variety, and individualizes the purpose of each star. Can we really say that a humming bird is less of a bird, or less important a bird, then a great blue heron? Not at all!

    Thanks brother. Good podcast. I would've listened to it all, except that I want to do other things. If there were more important points you wished to make, let me know?

  8. #98
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, my only point is that we preach so that *some may be Saved.* Baptism is an add on, and is of value as a public testimony to the Salvation we already have received.

    It is Salvation that is primary. Baptism has value as a public testimony.

    I'm just producing a priority list, so that we don't get confused about rituals, thinking that it a necessary ingredient in Salvation. Salvation is all about a relationship with God, and about God's Spirit indwelling us. It is not about participating in public testimonials, although that is certainly an extension of our Christian life.

    Salvation is not about Communion Services, and "ingesting Salvation." We initially partake of Salvation the day we accept Christ and accept His presence at the core of our being, making Him Lord.

    Neither do I agree with Walls that Baptism somehow elevates us to a higher level of Christianity. Baptism is an expression we may need to put ourselves out there, confessing who we've become and who we'll be in the world. It also helps others to know that we will no longer be with them if they're pagans.
    I think we are probably closer than we realize, but baptism is a very important step that should be encouraged at all costs and followed for the necessary growth of a new believer. I do differ than you that it's simply a recommendation. In the mission fields of the jungles in Peru and Ecuador we see people timidly come to Christ... then by their own choosing , after observation and understanding of what happened in their lives when they put their faith in Christ,... choose to be baptized, and grow tremendously.

  9. #99
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    I think we are probably closer than we realize, but baptism is a very important step that should be encouraged at all costs and followed for the necessary growth of a new believer. I do differ than you that it's simply a recommendation. In the mission fields of the jungles in Peru and Ecuador we see people timidly come to Christ... then by their own choosing , after observation and understanding of what happened in their lives when they put their faith in Christ,... choose to be baptized, and grow tremendously.
    Yes, we're on the same page here. Baptism is, as I said, a recommended course of action for the new believer. It is a public testimonial, which often is critical, as you suggested. The Scriptures indicate that Salvation is not just belief, but more, a "confession." See James 2.19. With the mouth we confess, and so are saved.

    Rom 10.9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

    And so, Baptism is a desirable way of *confessing* our faith, so that we not only believe, but *practice* our faith, openly and publicly. Thanks.

  10. #100
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    A serpent gets born and is alive. This is different to when a serpent falls into a reservoir and a serpent-lover rescues it. One is birth - the other is salvation. The Bible is not just one Chapter long. Shall we not honor God Who wrote such intricacies over nearly 1,200 Chapters?

    • Christ's death is for our sins
    • Christ's death is also for us to die with and IN Him
    • Christ's resurrection is for rebirth of the human spirit
    • Christ's resurrection is also for our resurrection
    • Christ is our Burnt Offering, our Meal Offering and our Peace Offering - none of which address our sin and sins
    • Christ is a Sin Offering and our Trespass Offering
    • Christ is made our righteousness
    • Christ is our coming King
    • Christ is our present Head
    • Christ allows us to be justified

    Each one of these things deals with a problem that we fallen men have. And there are more than this. Each has had multiple books written about them. Who said the Bible was simple? Spread your wings brother. Be open to more revelation. Make some mistakes but don't change one word for another. You don't do this in life and you don't do it at work. Don't do it in the Bible.
    None of what you posted interferes with simple faith and repentance simply saving a sinner. I'm so glad that Jesus offers forgiveness and we just need to receive it. Your way is not an easy yoke nor is it scriptural Walls. It's legalistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    A serpent gets born and is alive. This is different to when a serpent falls into a reservoir and a serpent-lover rescues it. One is birth - the other is salvation. The Bible is not just one Chapter long. Shall we not honor God Who wrote such intricacies over nearly 1,200 Chapters?

    • Christ's death is for our sins
    • Christ's death is also for us to die with and IN Him
    • Christ's resurrection is for rebirth of the human spirit
    • Christ's resurrection is also for our resurrection
    • Christ is our Burnt Offering, our Meal Offering and our Peace Offering - none of which address our sin and sins
    • Christ is a Sin Offering and our Trespass Offering
    • Christ is made our righteousness
    • Christ is our coming King
    • Christ is our present Head
    • Christ allows us to be justified

    Each one of these things deals with a problem that we fallen men have. And there are more than this. Each has had multiple books written about them. Who said the Bible was simple? Spread your wings brother. Be open to more revelation. Make some mistakes but don't change one word for another. You don't do this in life and you don't do it at work. Don't do it in the Bible.
    None of what you posted interferes with simple faith and repentance simply saving a sinner. I'm so glad that Jesus offers forgiveness and we just need to receive it. Your way is not an easy yoke nor is it scriptural Walls. It's legalistic.

  11. #101
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    And so, Baptism is a desirable way of *confessing* our faith, so that we not only believe, but *practice* our faith, openly and publicly. Thanks.
    Baptism (usually) is a new child in Christ, first act of faithful obedience
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  12. #102
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I listened to twenty some minutes of it, and yes, I enjoyed it. I just don't enjoy the "Rapture" part of it, since I'm Postrib. Regardless, a lot of points were made that I've believed myself. So thanks--it was nice to know others feel similarly to the way I do.

    I did notice that a reference was made to different "glories" of stars, with each person's "cup" being completely "full," whereas each of us has a different size of cup! That's probably true.

    And that's kind of where I've been on the matter of differing "glories" of stars. I do think that there will be many, many Christians in eternity, with different stars, not to demean smaller stars, but only because God loves variety, and individualizes the purpose of each star. Can we really say that a humming bird is less of a bird, or less important a bird, then a great blue heron? Not at all!

    Thanks brother. Good podcast. I would've listened to it all, except that I want to do other things. If there were more important points you wished to make, let me know?
    Was the part about how some "shine" Christ brighter than others, part of that portion of the show?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  13. #103
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Was the part about how some "shine" Christ brighter than others, part of that portion of the show?
    Just what I was saying about each of us having different sized cups. I have a large coffee up. It dwarfs in comparison to Christ's holy grail. And it's perhaps somewhat average in comparison to society as a whole.

    We are all, as Christians, stars. It doesn't matter what size our "star" is, as long as we are a "star!" Some stars are closer to earth, and form constellations. That's cool. It helps with navigation.

    Other stars are far away, but serve to light up the evening. All have value. Some are smaller. Others are larger. Collectively, they light up the night.

    Now if you're talking about some stars shining brighter as being more faithful than others, I think there's some truth in that. But in eternity, our failures will be healed.

    All that matters is that our star will shine. We should struggle to make our "shining" significant on earth today. I would rather be part of a constellation than be relegated to a background star, right?

    I'll add this: About 20 minutes into your podcast https://www.oneplace.com/ministries/understanding-the-times/
    this is addressed.

  14. #104
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Just what I was saying about each of us having different sized cups. I have a large coffee up. It dwarfs in comparison to Christ's holy grail. And it's perhaps somewhat average in comparison to society as a whole.

    We are all, as Christians, stars. It doesn't matter what size our "star" is, as long as we are a "star!" Some stars are closer to earth, and form constellations. That's cool. It helps with navigation.

    Other stars are far away, but serve to light up the evening. All have value. Some are smaller. Others are larger. Collectively, they light up the night.

    Now if you're talking about some stars shining brighter as being more faithful than others, I think there's some truth in that. But in eternity, our failures will be healed.

    All that matters is that our star will shine. We should struggle to make our "shining" significant on earth today. I would rather be part of a constellation than be relegated to a background star, right?

    I'll add this: About 20 minutes into your podcast https://www.oneplace.com/ministries/...ing-the-times/
    this is addressed.
    God is not a respecter of persons for certain brother Randy, I totally get your point. I'd add that our works are not without notice... but are not a spiritual 401k that builds into a wealthy eternal retirement depending on our effort, as some are suggesting here.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Just what I was saying about each of us having different sized cups. I have a large coffee up. It dwarfs in comparison to Christ's holy grail. And it's perhaps somewhat average in comparison to society as a whole.

    We are all, as Christians, stars. It doesn't matter what size our "star" is, as long as we are a "star!" Some stars are closer to earth, and form constellations. That's cool. It helps with navigation.

    Other stars are far away, but serve to light up the evening. All have value. Some are smaller. Others are larger. Collectively, they light up the night.

    Now if you're talking about some stars shining brighter as being more faithful than others, I think there's some truth in that. But in eternity, our failures will be healed.

    All that matters is that our star will shine. We should struggle to make our "shining" significant on earth today. I would rather be part of a constellation than be relegated to a background star, right?

    I'll add this: About 20 minutes into your podcast https://www.oneplace.com/ministries/understanding-the-times/
    this is addressed.
    God is not a respecter of persons for certain brother Randy, I totally get your point. I'd add that our works are not without notice... but are not a spiritual 401k that builds into a wealthy eternal retirement depending on our effort, as some are suggesting here.

  15. #105
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    God is not a respecter of persons for certain brother Randy, I totally get your point. I'd add that our works are not without notice... but are not a spiritual 401k that builds into a wealthy eternal retirement depending on our effort, as some are suggesting here.
    True enough! We're not in competition, but involved in a group effort. No matter how little we do--even if it involves a lifetime of failures--it's going to contribute to our group effort.

    To think that those who work harder and longer attain to the Millennial Kingdom, while all others are relegated to some lower level sounds unforgiving, even if there is a note of justice in it. Those who are more worthy should likely receive a better reward.

    But I don't think this would ever bring division in the universe of God's People, separating some from God's Kingdom. Unity in the Spirit is at the heart of what God wants to do with His people. He is the head, and we are the body.

    I do suggest we invest in some kind of spiritual investment though!

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