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Thread: How necessary Baptism?

  1. #121
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Correct - and well stated. But there also another possibility. Baptism is not mentioned the second time because it is moot if a person does not believe. It might be a poor example but consider this.

    I have a 4 X 4 and spares to cross the Sahara desert. If I have no 4 X 4 I cannot cross the Sahara.

    Why did I leave out "the spares" in the second sentence? Because without the 4 X 4 they are moot. The Holy Spirit is a Master of economical speech (Jn.20:30-31). Therefore, the leaving out of Baptism in the second mention COULD be as is said above in your posting. But if the Holy Spirit left it out in the case of unbelievers it does not invalidate the statement made to believers.
    But we have at least 2 examples (and I beleive more) where people were clearly saved, yet not baptized or not yet baptized.

    1. The thief on the cross was never baptized.

    Some object to this because he was saved "before Jesus death". Yet, he lived after Jesus had died.

    2. Cornelius and all the people there. They were saved, and baptized in the Holy Spirit, before they were ever baptized by water.

    I would argue Paul too was saved before he was baptized though he was commanded to be baptized for the washing away of sin (which in my opinion, is the old man).

    We also have old testament illustrations. Israel was saved from the wrath of God when the blood was applied to the door. Just as we are saved when the blood is applied to our hearts.

    When they were baptized in the Red Sea, their old ruler, Pharoah was washed away. Baptism shows (and in my current opinion actually does), that the old man is washed away.

    We are dead with Christ, buried with Christ and resurrected with and in Christ.

    None of this shows a regeneration through baptism. If Cornelius had died after speaking in tongues, without a doubt he would have gone to be with Jesus at that time and been in the new Jerusalem in eternity. Ditto Paul. Those guys were saved and baptism had nothing to do with rescuing them from the wrath and judgment of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Correct - and well stated. But there also another possibility. Baptism is not mentioned the second time because it is moot if a person does not believe. It might be a poor example but consider this.

    I have a 4 X 4 and spares to cross the Sahara desert. If I have no 4 X 4 I cannot cross the Sahara.

    Why did I leave out "the spares" in the second sentence? Because without the 4 X 4 they are moot. The Holy Spirit is a Master of economical speech (Jn.20:30-31). Therefore, the leaving out of Baptism in the second mention COULD be as is said above in your posting. But if the Holy Spirit left it out in the case of unbelievers it does not invalidate the statement made to believers.
    But we have at least 2 examples (and I beleive more) where people were clearly saved, yet not baptized or not yet baptized.

    1. The thief on the cross was never baptized.

    Some object to this because he was saved "before Jesus death". Yet, he lived after Jesus had died.

    2. Cornelius and all the people there. They were saved, and baptized in the Holy Spirit, before they were ever baptized by water.

    I would argue Paul too was saved before he was baptized though he was commanded to be baptized for the washing away of sin (which in my opinion, is the old man).

    We also have old testament illustrations. Israel was saved from the wrath of God when the blood was applied to the door. Just as we are saved when the blood is applied to our hearts.

    When they were baptized in the Red Sea, their old ruler, Pharoah was washed away. Baptism shows (and in my current opinion actually does), that the old man is washed away.

    We are dead with Christ, buried with Christ and resurrected with and in Christ.

    None of this shows a regeneration through baptism. If Cornelius had died after speaking in tongues, without a doubt he would have gone to be with Jesus at that time and been in the new Jerusalem in eternity. Ditto Paul. Those guys were saved and baptism had nothing to do with rescuing them from the wrath and judgment of God.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  2. #122
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Believe me, brother--I've always known the Lord. The time I came to realize what serving him really meant is when I came to understand the role the Holy Spirit is to play in my life. And that was at age 16, when I promised to give Him my all.

    Maybe I should call my pre-Holy Spirit days an "unsaved" period in my life? Still, I was raised up in church, and spent nearly every week of my life in church. My Dad was the organist, choir director, and adult bible study teacher. His Dad before him was a serious student of the Scriptures. I was an acolyte, and helped serve the Communion. I was confirmed after 2 years of Lutheran catechism.

    A lot of young people go through this kind of religious instruction from youth. I just don't know how real it is for each person? As for me, I knew the Lord, and just had to learn more about what role the Holy Spirit plays in guiding us. I had to learn how important obedience was to having Him guide me in life.

    Early in my life I didn't know enough about the ways of the Lord to do much more than live a good life and talk to the Lord regularly--not just official prayer but also casually, in the course of living. I asked God for things regularly. What would you call this?
    As Billy Graham's wife Ruth said " I do not know exactly when the sun came up, I just know that it came up". There was a day you passed from death to life. If there wasn't you haven't passed from death to life.

  3. #123
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    You were born a Christian?!? I suppose you’re the first one.
    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    What, you think I got born again as a toddler? I don't remember being born again, whether it happened or not. I'm not claiming to be the equal of John the Baptist, but he was jumping in his mother's womb when Jesus came by. I was jumping in my heart the 1st day I got to Sunday School! I still remember "Jesus Loves Me, This I Know." Yes, I did *know!*

    What biblical passage are you using to call me "mistaken?"
    Randy, what you are claiming goes against everything the Bible teaches about salvation. Saying that you were born a Christian denies John 3, that one must be born again. You may have been born in a Christian home, but there had to be a time was your spirit was regenerated. You had to be born again.
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

  4. #124
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    As Billy Graham's wife Ruth said " I do not know exactly when the sun came up, I just know that it came up". There was a day you passed from death to life. If there wasn't you haven't passed from death to life.
    I'll let the Lord decide. I would rather agree with God than with men. But I get your meaning. There *must be* new life in Christ. All of us were born as part of the old creation, afflicted with the sin nature. We had to come to know the Savior, who alone gives us a new nature and power for living in obedience.

  5. #125
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Randy, what you are claiming goes against everything the Bible teaches about salvation. Saying that you were born a Christian denies John 3, that one must be born again. You may have been born in a Christian home, but there had to be a time was your spirit was regenerated. You had to be born again.
    I guess that happened, ie "spirit regeneration" when the ministers and teachers of God's word spoke to my heart and I believed in those words? I have a recollection of a time when very early in life, at nursery level during Vacation Bible School, a particular woman teacher taught on the 10 Commandments. And she taught them with *faith,* which I sort of noticed was a special kind of faith, because others were more "formal" in their faith. I don't know whether I was delighted that I shared actual faith with the teacher, or acquired it from her words?

  6. #126
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    You were born a Christian?!? I suppose you’re the first one.
    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I guess that happened, ie "spirit regeneration" when the ministers and teachers of God's word spoke to my heart and I believed in those words? I have a recollection of a time when very early in life, at nursery level during Vacation Bible School, a particular woman teacher taught on the 10 Commandments. And she taught them with *faith,* which I sort of noticed was a special kind of faith, because others were more "formal" in their faith. I don't know whether I was delighted that I shared actual faith with the teacher, or acquired it from her words?
    That makes more sense. And I completely understand that you'd never remember not being Christian.
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

  7. #127
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'll let the Lord decide. I would rather agree with God than with men. But I get your meaning. There *must be* new life in Christ. All of us were born as part of the old creation, afflicted with the sin nature. We had to come to know the Savior, who alone gives us a new nature and power for living in obedience.
    I'm not questioning your conversion. Read about Ruth Graham ... she didn't know the day, but she knew there was a day.

  8. #128
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast View Post
    Given that your view contradicts the Bible and 2000 years of Christianity, why should we accept it?
    Very good question. I'm not trying to delegitimize Water Baptism. I'm only trying to keep it what it is, a confession and a public declaration, and not a mystical ritual, or something legalistic.

    For centuries there was a belief in "baptismal regeneration," but it was not largely meant as we may think. It was referred to as such because of its pointing to Christian Regeneration. But I don't believe it was largely thought that Water Baptism was itself Regeneration! That would be kind of absurd, since one gets Saved *before* one gets Water Baptized!

    So there is this language problem that more "mystical cultists" may try to use to appropriate Water Baptism for their own uses. And I would avoid that. I would avoid both legalism and mysticism with respect to Water Baptism. If we keep it what it is--an initiation ceremony, a confession and a public declaration, I'm fine with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast
    This is a total distortion of what Scripture says. The words "in their generation" are the "gospel according to randyk," they do not occur in Scripture.
    No, I'm just debating the issue. We are told this in the Bible (not Randy):

    Matt 28.16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations...

    You will notice that the Bible says (not Randy) that Jesus is giving specific instructions *to his 11 disciples.* If I tell you to go answer the door, I'm not telling everyone in the house to answer the door!

    So the question is: is the practice of *baptizing* something given only to the 11 apostles to do, or was it part of the instruction the apostles were to pass on to all generations?

    I think the question is debatable. I believe in reality, Water Baptism was practiced by the apostles, but was not specifically taught as a *necessity* for future generations.

    But it did set a precedent, which I believe to be a good one. The reason it was not taught as a necessity is simply because it was *not* a requirement, nor a necessity, but only a recommendation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast
    No, it really isn't.
    I suppose then I should say, Yes it is? If Water Baptism was part of the teachings Jesus gave to his 11 Disciples, you should be able to make that point--not just assert it, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast
    Matthew 28:18-20: And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you....
    This isn't proving what you were asserting! We both agree that the 11 Disciples were told to teach all the teachings of Jesus. It has not been proven that one of the teachings of Jesus was the necessity of Water Baptism. In fact, the Scriptures go out of their way to point out that Jesus himself did not baptize. Why do you think that was?

    John 4.2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast
    Yes, you are.
    If you want to get offensive, this is the way to do it. We're questioning what the biblical position is. We do not disagree on the fact the Bible is authoritative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radagast
    Again, you're totally making that up.

    We are told that Paul baptised few of the Corinthians, but only because others did the baptising (e.g. Acts 18:8).

    We know that Paul did at least baptise a dozen Ephesians (Acts 19:1-7), plus the Philippian jailer and his family (Acts 16:33).
    Let's get the whole picture here. Paul clearly downplayed his role in Water Baptizing, and didn't want that to become the Cult of Paul. Baptizing was not just an identification with Jesus, but more, a union with Jesus.

    1 Cor 1.14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

    Here Paul points out that even identification with Jesus can be done in a carnal way:

    1 Cor 1.12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

    Paul argued that less baptizing from him should dispel any interest he had in a strictly carnal baptism, which identifies people with a cult following. In that respect, Water Baptism can be abused, and thus, Paul downplayed the role he played in it. He was not saying that he Water Baptized less due to others getting that job done before he could! He simply considered his role in it unimportant.

  9. #129

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    After we have been saved/born again water baptism is an act of obedience that illustrates the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and our death to sin and our old self and our new life in Christ.

    It's not just a suggestion that one should be baptized it was an ordinance that Christ Himself instituted for The Church.

    At the same time it is not a requirement for salvation. If one is imprisoned or oppressed and unable to be baptized can they not still come to Christ and be born again/saved? Of course they can!
    If any oppose this simple statement show me Scriptural proof - in context - that states otherwise.


    If one doesn't have any restrictions and can be freely baptized is there any excuse not to do it? Nope. No excuse whatsoever.

    Just my 2 cents worth.

    that's exactly how the bible states baptism . No one really talks about " remission of sin" the only act in the bible , that links believers to remission of sins through his death IS baptism. It's an act we do , because we believe the gospel , it's very simple. We hear the doctrine Christ and his apostles taught , that baptism is for repentance and remission of sins. And because we believe this truth , we then go act in that faith .


    it's strange to me that any Christian would want to distort the doctrine , but again it was always going to happen that way.

    God will never encourage any Christian to not get baptized, he will never have any doctrine which changes the doctrine of Jesus Christ. There was once someone who told Jesus Christ HE didn't need baptism....he went ahead and was baptized , received the anointing for his ministry and then soon after been to preach the gospel....

    there is absolutely no other view on baptism , but what the bible says its for

    remission of sins....through the death of Christ ....it's why a Christian is baptized , it's the only doctrine about baptism in the bible.

    if we say well Jesus said to get baptized ....but it's not necessary, it's just a ritual.....that's a very distinct voice speaking and it's not Christ. He made baptism extremely important , it was even required that repentance and baptism for remission of sins ,....be preached before he began preaching the gospel. Where does it end ? The bible teaches baptism...but we don't need that ...the bible says repent of sins...but no one really can ever do that ....jesus says obey my word , keep my word , follow my words, learn from me....but that's not really true either ...cuz Paul wrote an epistle with a sentance in it that seems to change it ...


    the truth is , we don't need anyone to explain the gospel , Jesus preached it and his apostles explained it thoroughly. And everyone of them taught and approved baptism for the remission of sins ...it was part of the great commission....

  10. #130

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I genuinely respect the responses so far. Let me just reiterate that Baptism is a ritual that is supposed to *follow* a complete surrender to Christ. It is symbolic of our commitment to Christ, and is intended to show our Christian Family and the outside world that we are going in a new direction. Nothing about this saves us. It is just a recommended initiation ritual.

    Did Jesus tell his apostles to baptize? Yes. Did those same apostles tell future generations of the church to baptize? That is debatable.

    I personally think the teaching of Baptism was largely focused on the 1st generation of the church, with implications that it may apply in the future as well. Virtually all of the NT baptisms took place not in the future sense, but in the then-present apostolic sense in the 1st generation of the church.

    John the Baptist was focused on his own generation, preparing them for Christ through repentance. Water Baptism indicated that, and certainly was not a necessary act. It was a public declaration of change, from the corrupt practices of that generation to adopting true obedience to the Law.

    Far from promoting obedience under the Law, Christian Baptism promotes repentance following a failed system of Law, inviting repentance from all sin, whether failure under the Law or outright paganism. Future generations repent through Christ, but are "washing away sins" in a great variety of contexts.

    Baptism still works to show this public repentance. But it isn't essential, in my opinion. It is just advisable.
    definately your opinion.

  11. #131

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    But we have at least 2 examples (and I beleive more) where people were clearly saved, yet not baptized or not yet baptized.

    1. The thief on the cross was never baptized.

    Some object to this because he was saved "before Jesus death". Yet, he lived after Jesus had died.

    2. Cornelius and all the people there. They were saved, and baptized in the Holy Spirit, before they were ever baptized by water.

    I would argue Paul too was saved before he was baptized though he was commanded to be baptized for the washing away of sin (which in my opinion, is the old man).

    We also have old testament illustrations. Israel was saved from the wrath of God when the blood was applied to the door. Just as we are saved when the blood is applied to our hearts.

    When they were baptized in the Red Sea, their old ruler, Pharoah was washed away. Baptism shows (and in my current opinion actually does), that the old man is washed away.

    We are dead with Christ, buried with Christ and resurrected with and in Christ.

    None of this shows a regeneration through baptism. If Cornelius had died after speaking in tongues, without a doubt he would have gone to be with Jesus at that time and been in the new Jerusalem in eternity. Ditto Paul. Those guys were saved and baptism had nothing to do with rescuing them from the wrath and judgment of God.



    But we have at least 2 examples (and I beleive more) where people were clearly saved, yet not baptized or not yet baptized.

    1. The thief on the cross was never baptized.

    Some object to this because he was saved "before Jesus death". Yet, he lived after Jesus had died.

    2. Cornelius and all the people there. They were saved, and baptized in the Holy Spirit, before they were ever baptized by water.

    I would argue Paul too was saved before he was baptized though he was commanded to be baptized for the washing away of sin (which in my opinion, is the old man).

    We also have old testament illustrations. Israel was saved from the wrath of God when the blood was applied to the door. Just as we are saved when the blood is applied to our hearts.

    When they were baptized in the Red Sea, their old ruler, Pharoah was washed away. Baptism shows (and in my current opinion actually does), that the old man is washed away.

    We are dead with Christ, buried with Christ and resurrected with and in Christ.

    None of this shows a regeneration through baptism. If Cornelius had died after speaking in tongues, without a doubt he would have gone to be with Jesus at that time and been in the new Jerusalem in eternity. Ditto Paul. Those guys were saved and baptism had nothing to do with rescuing them from the wrath and judgment of God.

    brother you don't actually know water the thief on the cross was baptized or not .....correct? In fact scripture tells us that when John began baptizing all The surrounding areas came to be baptized of him in the Jordan ....and remember what John was preaching " remission of sins" many sinners in that region would have certainly been getting baptized in water.....it's possible he wasn't baptized , but just as possible he was baptized hoping for the remission of his sins....

    remember the prophecies they were waiting for about the forgiveness of sins , and Gods new covenant of mercy , the coming of the messiah and ...even John was prophesied about one coming to prepare the way for the lord....there's a real good chance most had been baptized o.t. Scripture was thier culture .....John was big time if you look closely a lot of folks followed him and we're baptized of him.

    and with the Gentiles corneleos that shows it doesn't matter if your baptized first , or receive the Holy Ghost first ....peters first command is that they are baptized in Jesus name , afterward.


    there's no example of anyone being saved without baptism . The bible actually is super clear of its purpose ...the remission of sins. Before and after the cross . The point of it is this

    Gods word declares get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and your sins will be remitted " ........if a person believes this , when they are then baptized , knowing and believing it's for the remission of thier sins , through the death of Christ ......when they act and do it ....they now have Gods pledge to them , " your sins have been remitted , you were baptized into Christ's death for your sins , your debt is paid now , you can let go of your past sins "

    it's an act of faith , we get baptized because we understand " I'm a sinner and I'm lost I need forgiveness" God has said " repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins " ..............so what then does a sinner who believes this do? I mean actually believes it ? And if they do believe " if I get baptized Gods word says clearly my sins are remitted through the death of Jesus Christ" the result is to go do it because of faith and lay hold of the pledge God has given us of a clear conscience so we can move on from the things that bind us.

    in the end it comes down to faith those who believe ....and those who don't

    And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.

    But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.”
    **Luke‬ *7:29-30‬ *KJV‬‬


    anyone who believes what the bible says about baptism , should get baptized asap. And I would imagine anyone who believes what the bible says about baptism already have been baptized because it's a wonderful promise...also think of all the times Paul says things like this


    For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
    **Galatians‬ *3:26-28‬ *KJV‬‬

    “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

    that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”
    **Romans‬ *6:3-6‬ *KJV‬‬

    “In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
    **Colossians‬ *2:11-13‬ *KJV‬‬


    just three quick examples from Paul's epistles ....why does he teach the things like is about baptism I wonder ? It seems like ....well .....maybe it's important and has a lot of meaning

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    But we have at least 2 examples (and I beleive more) where people were clearly saved, yet not baptized or not yet baptized.

    1. The thief on the cross was never baptized.

    Some object to this because he was saved "before Jesus death". Yet, he lived after Jesus had died.

    2. Cornelius and all the people there. They were saved, and baptized in the Holy Spirit, before they were ever baptized by water.

    I would argue Paul too was saved before he was baptized though he was commanded to be baptized for the washing away of sin (which in my opinion, is the old man).

    We also have old testament illustrations. Israel was saved from the wrath of God when the blood was applied to the door. Just as we are saved when the blood is applied to our hearts.

    When they were baptized in the Red Sea, their old ruler, Pharoah was washed away. Baptism shows (and in my current opinion actually does), that the old man is washed away.

    We are dead with Christ, buried with Christ and resurrected with and in Christ.

    None of this shows a regeneration through baptism. If Cornelius had died after speaking in tongues, without a doubt he would have gone to be with Jesus at that time and been in the new Jerusalem in eternity. Ditto Paul. Those guys were saved and baptism had nothing to do with rescuing them from the wrath and judgment of God.



    But we have at least 2 examples (and I beleive more) where people were clearly saved, yet not baptized or not yet baptized.

    1. The thief on the cross was never baptized.

    Some object to this because he was saved "before Jesus death". Yet, he lived after Jesus had died.

    2. Cornelius and all the people there. They were saved, and baptized in the Holy Spirit, before they were ever baptized by water.

    I would argue Paul too was saved before he was baptized though he was commanded to be baptized for the washing away of sin (which in my opinion, is the old man).

    We also have old testament illustrations. Israel was saved from the wrath of God when the blood was applied to the door. Just as we are saved when the blood is applied to our hearts.

    When they were baptized in the Red Sea, their old ruler, Pharoah was washed away. Baptism shows (and in my current opinion actually does), that the old man is washed away.

    We are dead with Christ, buried with Christ and resurrected with and in Christ.

    None of this shows a regeneration through baptism. If Cornelius had died after speaking in tongues, without a doubt he would have gone to be with Jesus at that time and been in the new Jerusalem in eternity. Ditto Paul. Those guys were saved and baptism had nothing to do with rescuing them from the wrath and judgment of God.

    brother you don't actually know water the thief on the cross was baptized or not .....correct? In fact scripture tells us that when John began baptizing all The surrounding areas came to be baptized of him in the Jordan ....and remember what John was preaching " remission of sins" many sinners in that region would have certainly been getting baptized in water.....it's possible he wasn't baptized , but just as possible he was baptized hoping for the remission of his sins....

    remember the prophecies they were waiting for about the forgiveness of sins , and Gods new covenant of mercy , the coming of the messiah and ...even John was prophesied about one coming to prepare the way for the lord....there's a real good chance most had been baptized o.t. Scripture was thier culture .....John was big time if you look closely a lot of folks followed him and we're baptized of him.

    and with the Gentiles corneleos that shows it doesn't matter if your baptized first , or receive the Holy Ghost first ....peters first command is that they are baptized in Jesus name , afterward.


    there's no example of anyone being saved without baptism . The bible actually is super clear of its purpose ...the remission of sins. Before and after the cross . The point of it is this

    Gods word declares get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and your sins will be remitted " ........if a person believes this , when they are then baptized , knowing and believing it's for the remission of thier sins , through the death of Christ ......when they act and do it ....they now have Gods pledge to them , " your sins have been remitted , you were baptized into Christ's death for your sins , your debt is paid now , you can let go of your past sins "

    it's an act of faith , we get baptized because we understand " I'm a sinner and I'm lost I need forgiveness" God has said " repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins " ..............so what then does a sinner who believes this do? I mean actually believes it ? And if they do believe " if I get baptized Gods word says clearly my sins are remitted through the death of Jesus Christ" the result is to go do it because of faith and lay hold of the pledge God has given us of a clear conscience so we can move on from the things that bind us.

    in the end it comes down to faith those who believe ....and those who don't

    And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.

    But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.”
    **Luke‬ *7:29-30‬ *KJV‬‬


    anyone who believes what the bible says about baptism , should get baptized asap. And I would imagine anyone who believes what the bible says about baptism already have been baptized because it's a wonderful promise...also think of all the times Paul says things like this


    For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
    **Galatians‬ *3:26-28‬ *KJV‬‬

    “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

    that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”
    **Romans‬ *6:3-6‬ *KJV‬‬

    “In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
    **Colossians‬ *2:11-13‬ *KJV‬‬


    just three quick examples from Paul's epistles ....why does he teach the things like is about baptism I wonder ? It seems like ....well .....maybe it's important and has a lot of meaning

  12. #132
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    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    But we have at least 2 examples (and I beleive more) where people were clearly saved, yet not baptized or not yet baptized.

    1. The thief on the cross was never baptized.

    Some object to this because he was saved "before Jesus death". Yet, he lived after Jesus had died.

    2. Cornelius and all the people there. They were saved, and baptized in the Holy Spirit, before they were ever baptized by water.

    I would argue Paul too was saved before he was baptized though he was commanded to be baptized for the washing away of sin (which in my opinion, is the old man).

    We also have old testament illustrations. Israel was saved from the wrath of God when the blood was applied to the door. Just as we are saved when the blood is applied to our hearts.

    When they were baptized in the Red Sea, their old ruler, Pharoah was washed away. Baptism shows (and in my current opinion actually does), that the old man is washed away.

    We are dead with Christ, buried with Christ and resurrected with and in Christ.

    None of this shows a regeneration through baptism. If Cornelius had died after speaking in tongues, without a doubt he would have gone to be with Jesus at that time and been in the new Jerusalem in eternity. Ditto Paul. Those guys were saved and baptism had nothing to do with rescuing them from the wrath and judgment of God.



    But we have at least 2 examples (and I beleive more) where people were clearly saved, yet not baptized or not yet baptized.

    1. The thief on the cross was never baptized.

    Some object to this because he was saved "before Jesus death". Yet, he lived after Jesus had died.

    2. Cornelius and all the people there. They were saved, and baptized in the Holy Spirit, before they were ever baptized by water.

    I would argue Paul too was saved before he was baptized though he was commanded to be baptized for the washing away of sin (which in my opinion, is the old man).

    We also have old testament illustrations. Israel was saved from the wrath of God when the blood was applied to the door. Just as we are saved when the blood is applied to our hearts.

    When they were baptized in the Red Sea, their old ruler, Pharoah was washed away. Baptism shows (and in my current opinion actually does), that the old man is washed away.

    We are dead with Christ, buried with Christ and resurrected with and in Christ.

    None of this shows a regeneration through baptism. If Cornelius had died after speaking in tongues, without a doubt he would have gone to be with Jesus at that time and been in the new Jerusalem in eternity. Ditto Paul. Those guys were saved and baptism had nothing to do with rescuing them from the wrath and judgment of God.
    Well have you brought these two examples. But just to be clear, my opponents accuse me of inferring that Baptism saves. If you read through my posts you will find no such statement. I showed the importance of Baptism in God's plan, but never even alluded to Baptismal salvation. What I did say was that Baptism was crucial to the Kingdom. But my esteemed brothers think that they are going to heaven and equate that with salvation. I, on the other hand, do not suffer from such a Roman Catholic myth. The Kingdom for me is the Kingdom that Christ will set up on earth after His glorious return TO EARTH. So, for the purposes of answering your examples, please grant me that position. Salvation for me is to saved from a threatening situation. You can read about it is my postings on the other thread on Baptism.

    The Criminal on the cross next to our Lord Jesus:
    The simple answer to this matter is that that the criminal asked our Lord Jesus to remember him, "... when thou comest into thy kingdom" (Luke 23:42). The criminal did not ask our Lord to "save him", nor did he ask to be spared the Lake of Fire. He asked about the coming KINGDOM which our Lord has predcited to set up when He returned. On the cross above Jesus was "KING ... of the Jews". At His trial Jesus was accused of replacing Caesar - a KING! There was no talk in Jerusalem of a Savior. It was all to do with who would be king of the earth. No doubt the criminal received revelation from heaven. He saw suddenly that Jesus was the coming KING, and appealed for a place in it His KINGDOM. And ehat was our Lord's answer???

    His answer had NOTHING to do with the KINGDOM! The KINGDOM is not available to the criminal. In John 3:5 BAPTISM is needed for the KINGDOM; and in Matthew 7:21 to get into the Kingdom one has to "do the will of my father in heaven"! The criminal HAD NEITHER. But what DID HE HAVE? He had FAITH in an instant of heavenly revelation. He recognized Who Jesus was. "... flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 16:17). So what will FAITH BRING according to the Bible?
    • His sins are put away (Rom.3:25)
    • He is reconciled to God (Rom.5:10)
    • He has Christ's righteousness imputed to him (Rom.3:22)
    • He will not go the the Lake of Fire
    • He has eternal life (Jn.3:15)
    • He is a son of God (Jn.1:12-13)

    But what, according to the Bible is needed to ENTER the Kingdom? Rebirth is needed to SEE the Kingdom (Jn.3:3), but not enough to ENTER the Kingdom. Rebirth AND BAPTISM are needed to ENTER the Kingdom (Jn.3:5). Added to this, in EVERY CASE in the Bible where the Kingdom is mentioned as a GOAL, it is by WORKS. Try Galatians 5:21, try Ephesians 5:5, try 1st Corinthians 6:9, try the parables of Wedding Feast, the Talents, The Pounds, the Virgins - they all indicate that the Kingdom MUST BE EARNED. To ENTER the Kingdom, says Matthew 7:21 you have DO the will of the Father. The criminal HAD NO BAPTISM, NO GOOD WORKS and he had NO RELATIONSHIP with Christ over years.

    So here does he go at death? He goes to Paradise - a part of Hades UNDER THE EARTH. That is where our Lord Jesus went (Matt.12:40; Eph.4:9) that same day. And where will the criminal be at resurrection? He will be resurrected with the Church. He will SEE the Kingdom as Christ sets it up and rules on earth. But will he PARTAKE of it? NO! He is not qualified. The first WORK a man must do to ENTER the Kingdom is BE BAPTIZED! And from then on he must WALK with Christ to be known by Him, he must do the WORKS the Father orders, and he must live righteously all his days.

    That is why the criminal next to our Lord Jesus CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM and that is why our Lord Jesus DID NOT ANSWER HIM ABOUT HIS QUESTION.

    The house of Cornelius:
    If you study EVERY case of Baptism in the new Testament, you will find that the order was the same; BELIEVE, CONFESS JESUS and "BE BAPTIZED". The case of Cornelius is a SINGLE EXCEPTION. Why? The answer is given in Acts Chapter 11. The short of it is that although our Lord Jesus had taught His disciples that He would be declared to, and embraced by the Gentiles, the disciples were too steeped in 1,500 years of Law to allow this. The Law forbade relations with the Gentiles. No contracts, no covenants, no marriage - NO NOTHING was allowed between Israelite and Gentile. This resistance is revealed clearly when God let down the sheet of unclean animals and told Peter to eat. He could just not overcome the Law - and the sheet is withdrawn AFTER THREE TIMES with Peter still hungry. Peter pointedly disobeyed God's voice THREE TIMES - so strong was the Law to a Jew. It took an enormous overcoming from Peter to go to Caesarea. It took even a greater overcoming to enter his house. And in Chapter 11, "And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him" (Acts 11:2).

    Peter, like Jonah, wished to have nothing to do with Gentiles, and so did the whole Church at Jerusalem. So God gives them a SIGN. We read in Acts 11:16-17;

    16 "Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
    17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?"


    The Jews who had converted would NEVER have accepted the Gentiles. They were ready, like Peter "TO WITHSTAND GOD". So our Lord gives the ONE SIGN that would identify himself with the Gentiles. He "gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ". The giving of the Holy Spirit BEFORE Baptism was not to overthrow Acts 2:38. Every other case of Baptism follows Acts 2:38. The EXCEPTION in Acts Chapter 10 was to give an UNMISTAKABLE SIGN that our Lord would give the SAME to the Gentiles as He have to His Jewish disciples. And the end of the narrative is just as big a lesson. Peter recognizes that the order of Acts 2:38 has been overturned by the Head of the Church and IMMEDIATELY CALLS FOR WATER BAPTISM! In Acts 10:47-48 Peter immediately calls for "WATER" ans IMMERSES the new converts.

    YES. There is an exception. But it is not an exception to WATER BAPTISM. It is ONLY an exception to the ORDER. And Peter immediately calling for WATER should be a warning to ALL Christians that BAPTISM is NEVER TO BE LEFT OUT.

    Both these cases that you have presented EMPHASIZE Water Baptism. The Lord refuses to answer the criminal about the Kingdom, and Peter, even in his "astonishment" could think of only ONE THING - GET WATER!

  13. #133

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    We are going from one extreme to the other. From baptism is simply advisable, to baptism is necessary for salvation.

    It's important but it doesn't save.

    where does the bible say it's important but?

    actually where does the bible say anything that contradicts Jesus Christ who said " anyone who believes and is baptized shall be saved"

    it sort of seems like well....it's tied at least somewhat , to salvation being Jesus the savior said " anyone who believes and is baptized shall be saved "

    I'm not sure where there is even an I sinuation in scripture that baptism isn't necessary. Could be wrong and invite anyone to quote that verse concerning baptism not being necessary.....but I sure have never ran across it. It seems more like maybe we take a verse like " you are saved by grace not by works" in a letter with hundreds of sentances and then conclude " well if we're saved by grace and not works ....baptism can't be necessary"


    that's not what I'm asking for , but scripture that says it's not necessary....there's a lot showing its necessaty like " go preach the gospel to every creature whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved " a lot saying " baptism is for the remission of sins"....can one be saved in thier sins? And if baptism is for the remission of them .....it seems like part of Gods design that a believer get baptized.....I'm not sure if agreeing with Gods word is an extreme ....but maybe I guess.


    have I messed the doctrine where baptism is not necessary?

  14. #134

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    2. Cornelius and all the people there. They were saved, and baptized in the Holy Spirit, before they were ever baptized by water.
    Yes, but they were baptised with water. They cannot be used to prove that baptism is optional.

    And the thief on the cross had no chance to be baptised (he did not refuse to be baptised). He was also a bit of a special case.

  15. #135

    Re: How necessary Baptism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    That is why the criminal next to our Lord Jesus CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM and that is why our Lord Jesus DID NOT ANSWER HIM ABOUT HIS QUESTION.
    You can't get that from the passage. The passage says clearly that he was saved.

    Even Roman Catholics, who view baptism as inherently salvific, put him in the category of "baptism of desire."

    And your theology of "the Kingdom" is very strange.

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